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Infj + Intp love ?

MaryJane

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Yar, do confirm what you meant, that you are done with the relationship. Even if he's a douche that don't make his suffering something good, it still bad, be the bigger man ^^

although in my book you text msg wasn't really that ambiguous, but it probably is to a lot of people

How would talking to him be less painful, assuming it is painful for him in the first place? I dont undersatnd this. I would open myself up to him doing that logically illogical thing of confusing me about something and i have no doubt i would then be suffering. So im going to run from my feelings and not give him that opportunity.

Does that make more sense? The more i write, the more i feel this was a slightly emotionally abusive relationship.
 

defghi

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When he wants to hang out with me, he is very much like, are you done with X? " 5 hours later, are you done yet? 5 hours later "are you done yet?" but when he has simething to do, usually going out without inviting me, he acts completely defensive if i even hint that id lke to be invited.

Like i said, hes damaged, confused, he likes me but i think hes obsessed with controlling when we spend time together, how long, and what it entails.

That is not fair to me. Plus whoever said ive been cintacting him "constantly" all week, surely as an INTP you would realize that would be very difficult, number one as i work and sleep and eat, and number two, i never saud that. God you sound just like him! Weird. Anyway back on topic, i waited 4 days after we hung out and i had heard nothing after spending 24 hours tigether. Then i texted him (brace yourself) twice in one day. And then once the next day. I called him once on each if these days as well. This is WAY more than my usual number of attempts with only one text response from him, and the first time ive retexted or called after no response.

But hes done it to me and even wouldnt leave my house once when i really had work to do. He kept kissing me for like 5 hours (among other things) and i kept getting uh, distracted. But that did kind if bother me although i am the one who let him stay.

As for him losing respect for me --- hes already lost mine. And sating im done may be borderline PA but im saying its over. I see no point or possibility of having a constructive cinversation with him and i dont want to have a conversation with him. I am done. Im done done done.

Glad I sounded like him, that was my intention. You're right to rebuke me for saying you were constantly bothering him. What I meant to get across is that, if he wants the freedom to not respond to you or not invite you, that's okay, it's not being damaged or douchey, as long as he allows you the same freedom. If he's not allowing you that, or if you're not okay with that kind of arrangement, then he's not the right guy for you. (which sounds like where we've ended up).

Also, I agree with explaining yourself just a teensy bit more clearly to him. "I'm done" may have encapsulated all you wanted to say, but he didn't understand it for what it was; he guessed you meant with work.
 

Cherry Cola

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His views on women, love and a lot of other things are straight out wrong and hint at some kind of inner pathological pattern though. Even if his distant behaviour in itself does not.

Maryjane: Because it is kinder in the long run to let him know so he can begin dealing with it. Even if he doesn't show it I think being left in a kind of limbo as he might be in now can be very stressful and make realization that it actually is over all the more worse when it does come, as he'll have more time to build up dread over it. I realize this might sound silly considering the way you've described him, but I really don't think he is as detached as he likes to think he is.
 

MaryJane

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Glad I sounded like him, that was my intention. You're right to rebuke me for saying you were constantly bothering him. What I meant to get across is that, if he wants the freedom to not respond to you or not invite you, that's okay, it's not being damaged or douchey, as long as he allows you the same freedom. If he's not allowing you that, or if you're not okay with that kind of arrangement, then he's not the right guy for you. (which sounds like where we've ended up).

Also, I agree with explaining yourself just a teensy bit more clearly to him. "I'm done" may have encapsulated all you wanted to say, but he didn't understand it for what it was; he guessed you meant with work.

You do sound like him... Not saying that to imply you share negative characteristics although your first sentence did sound a little sarcastic. Of course i didnt think that -- and my point has never been that he cant be distant. Hell ive been criticized for that my entire life. When i see it as truly he just needs some space, im fine. But if you read all my posts i think youll see thats not what im saying. And im not upset over one week of interactions but the whole thing combined - 3 1/2 months.

Honestly im not sure i can bring myself to talk to him again....unless i get a pack of smokes and some wine on hand first ;) Hes a smart guy, id bet hes already figured it out, decided he hates me, and left to go out with his friends. I am being serious here, just to be clear.
 

MaryJane

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His views on women, love and a lot of other things are straight out wrong and hint at some kind of inner pathological pattern though. Even if his distant behaviour in itself does not.

Maryjane: Because it is kinder in the long run to let him know so he can begin dealing with it. Even if he doesn't show it I think being left in a kind of limbo as he might be in now can be very stressful and make realization that it actually is over all the more worse when it does come, as he'll have more time to build up dread over it. I realize this might sound silly considering the way you've described him, but I really don't think he is as detached as he likes to think he is.

This post makes me feel sad. :(
 

pjoa09

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Waitwaitwait...

When did his Ti become weak?

When couldn't INTP's enjoy playing music?

Being jealous while denying the existence of the emotions sounds pretty INTP to me.

@OP
You mentioned you wouldn't take anything said on here for granted, I'm going to take that as license to splurge without restraint.

Okay so the love thing I completely understand. It's not necessarily that he doesn't think it exists at all, just that he doesn't think he can experience it. It's like when you're talking to a highly spiritual person and you don't think that they necessarily don't experience what they say they do, but you don't think it's something you'd ever experience, and you can sort of write it off as a subjective experience of those that are less rational.

This basically speaks of a drive to control the irrational within oneself, which is something most people on the forum can understand I'm sure. Basically he rejects his inferior function (Fe), allowing his Ti to reign tyrannically in service to the values instilled in him by his abusive father. You might find it odd that someone so rational could be so unsceptical towards his underlying motives, but given their source, it's not difficult to see why he might want to leave that stone unturned.

This man is completely untrusting. Relationships are not something he sees as viable, as he cannot split his intentions with another. I've had very very similar experiences where I'm happy to be around someone, and to be intimate at some level, but essentially hello always ends in goodbye. You look at the statistics behind relationship lifespan, and you see that really what feels so good now will almost certainly end in one of the most painful and miserable experiences of your life. It's not necessarily entirely selfish either, after all, you're the one with emotional problems who will almost invariably end up sabotaging the relationship through no intention of your own. By refusing to nurture such a relationship, aren't you saving both parties the trouble associated with relationship death?

Since he does not believe in love, he does not believe that an entity other than himself can serve his motives. When two people bond they pool both their resources and their goals, he doesn't think you will serve his goals, and he doesn't think he can serve yours. I don't know if he's wrong, I haven't met the fella (or you).

While, given the light that your later posts shines on the current context of your future, I think you should cut the chord, as he is unlikely to improve your life, I don't think you should hate him or start thinking of him as some sort of bad person. He's damaged, but not necessarily in a way that stops him being a good person. He's just not capable of providing for your needs. The portrait you paint of him basically depicts a nomadic musician, you are not going to be able to change the characteristics that underlies not only his relationship style, but his career and social style as well.

Maybe a bit naive to trust a newcomer with typology, "I am an INFJ, with a weak J, dating an INTP, with a weak T. However, from everything that i know about him he seems very much to be an INTP." - OP's first post on this thread.

Being jealous while denying the existence of the emotions sounds pretty human to me. I don't see anything too extraordinary here, I consider that as normal behavior. It'd be dysfunctional to do the inverse. Just saying, not throwing a ball of yarn here.

I play the guitar time to time and I once was obsessed with it but INTP's are very nice people because of Fe, I think being a douche and an INTP is dysfunctional.
 

MaryJane

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Maybe a bit naive to trust a newcomer with typology, "I am an INFJ, with a weak J, dating an INTP, with a weak T. However, from everything that i know about him he seems very much to be an INTP." - OP's first post on this thread.

Being jealous while denying the existence of the emotions sounds pretty human to me. I don't see anything too extraordinary here, I consider that as normal behavior. It'd be dysfunctional to do the inverse. Just saying, not throwing a ball of yarn here.

I play the guitar time to time and I once was obsessed with it but INTP's are very nice people because of Fe, I think being a douche and an INTP is dysfunctional.

My credentials: i have a phd in psychology have bern obsessed with the mbti since 2005 and have read about 8 nooks on it, been trained in school on it, and administered and interpreted the results approxinately 500 times.

I know a little something anout it ;)
 

Amagi82

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Is Psychology one of those degrees like Economics wherein you can know enough "facts" to make an SJ moan in approval, yet still somehow have no idea how things actually interconnect and work, either top down, or on a practical level?
 

Absurdity

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Let's ease up on the personal attacks here.
 

ProxyAmenRa

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Let's ease up on the personal attacks here.

I didn't mean what I said as a personal attack. I was just curious. If a person specifically trained in the field of the human psyche is having troubles, what chance do the rest of us have? :P
 

cheese

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Give him another chance, I think. Especially as talking about problems, in particular problems in people, can make them seem much bigger and more obviously present than they might be later, when your perspective shifts (which it almost certainly will). Evidence will probably conglomerate differently and your mind will change on his character and intentions.*

He may have been using you but not been aware of it.

In any case he sounds very damaged and lacking in self-awareness.

*edit
To clarify, I mean your anger and hurt (which are perfectly understandable) are probably favouring some hypotheses of character over others, and while you talk about it with other people your mind is constructing better and better arguments at supporting it. When emotion recedes your perspective will shift and the facts will arrange themselves differently, which may lead you to regret.

... probably. I'm not totally sure how INFJs work. However I think the above is true for people in general, with any reasonable degree of open-mindedness.
 

MaryJane

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Is Psychology one of those degrees like Economics wherein you can know enough "facts" to make an SJ moan in approval, yet still somehow have no idea how things actually interconnect and work, either top down, or on a practical level?

Well im a very srong N, which has to do with what you are describing in terms of perception of the situation.
 

MaryJane

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To clarify, I mean your anger and hurt (which are perfectly understandable) are probably favouring some hypotheses of character over others, and while you talk about it with other people your mind is constructing better and better arguments at supporting it. When emotion recedes your perspective will shift and the facts will arrange themselves differently, which may lead you to regret.

... probably. I'm not totally sure how INFJs work. However I think the above is true for people in general, with any reasonable degree of open-mindedness.

I agree and yes studies have shown the more emotional we get, the less effectively our frontal lobe works. I am sure there is variation in this among people but i think it happens to almost everyone.

This is one reason i was seeking advice here, since nobody has a personal stake in what i say other than if i stir up some unresolved personal issues inadvertantly.
 

pjoa09

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My credentials: i have a phd in psychology have bern obsessed with the mbti since 2005 and have read about 8 nooks on it, been trained in school on it, and administered and interpreted the results approxinately 500 times.

I know a little something anout it ;)

Oh...

Well, I'd like to tell you that your dating interest could be an INFP because as it turns out he's weak in Ti and Fe according to your judgement and common sense respectively.

INFPs aren't too nice sometimes. They too are often assholes. Assholes that you think you can get along with but fail to reciprocate attention intentionally.
 

Cherry Cola

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I have a PHD in nothing, haven't even sustained any romantical relationships at all, and I am half the OP's age : D
 

MaryJane

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Oh...

Well, I'd like to tell you that your dating interest could be an INFP because as it turns out he's weak in Ti and Fe according to your judgement and common sense respectively.

INFPs aren't too nice sometimes. They too are often assholes. Assholes that you think you can get along with but fail to reciprocate attention intentionally.

Yes he is a low T which would mean he would share characteristcs with an INFP. As you may know each letter stands on a continuum. I stated this in my original post. He could be in INXP or an INFP. Or, as the test came out, an INTP.

Someone should write a book focusing on unhealthy MBTI types, potential problems for each, etc etc. i would buy that.
 

Cherry Cola

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Yes he is a low T which would mean he would share characteristcs with an INFP. As you may know each letter stands on a continuum. I stated this in my original post. He could be in INXP or an INFP. Or, as the test came out, an INTP.

Someone should write a book focusing on unhealthy MBTI types, potential problems for each, etc etc. i would buy that.

Types don't work like that. The letters stand on a continuum, the underlying functions that dictate actual behavior do not. Hence the former is irrelevant as far as MBTI type is concerned.
 

MaryJane

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Types don't work like that. The letters stand on a continuum, the underlying functions that dictate actual behavior do not. Hence the former is irrelevant as far as MBTI type is concerned.

Hmmm ok i can see that. Ive never delved into underlying functions. Mostly I go over the main descriptions and if they are low on a letter or they say that doesnt sound like me, we'll have a talk about the type descriptions, what each letter means, etc, and i ultimately let them decide for themselves what their type is. (this was done in the context of career counseling and i usually only saw them 2-3 times).
 

MaryJane

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I think im going to take that underlying functions test for myself now out of curiosity. Maybe it will prompt me to start a new thread relating more to myself ;)

PS i have decided after a few days of calming down/reflection to have a talk with the guy. Well see how it goes :/
 

MaryJane

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Oh...

Well, I'd like to tell you that your dating interest could be an INFP because as it turns out he's weak in Ti and Fe according to your judgement and common sense respectively.

INFPs aren't too nice sometimes. They too are often assholes. Assholes that you think you can get along with but fail to reciprocate attention intentionally.

There arent many asshole INTPs running around? I was married for 10 years to an INFP and the two guys are quite dissimilar. I was taken with so many of the INTP characteristics that ive read other people become enamored with... Never met anyone quite like him.

I think he is really an INTP. Just damaged.
 

MaryJane

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Give him another chance, I think. Especially as talking about problems, in particular problems in people, can make them seem much bigger and more obviously present than they might be later, when your perspective shifts (which it almost certainly will). Evidence will probably conglomerate differently and your mind will change on his character and intentions.*

He may have been using you but not been aware of it.

In any case he sounds very damaged and lacking in self-awareness.

*edit
To clarify, I mean your anger and hurt (which are perfectly understandable) are probably favouring some hypotheses of character over others, and while you talk about it with other people your mind is constructing better and better arguments at supporting it. When emotion recedes your perspective will shift and the facts will arrange themselves differently, which may lead you to regret.

... probably. I'm not totally sure how INFJs work. However I think the above is true for people in general, with any reasonable degree of open-mindedness.

Egads (sp?) we talked and again he (out)logic-ed me into us staying together.

I cant keep up with him and he always makes me feel like hes so adorabe with his calm rational explanations, his air of mystery, his intense sexuality, his intelligence... Ugh. Well see how it goes i guess. Im always so taken with him when we talk but for some reason i feel just weak. Weak weak. Now, again, after hanging out with him i miss him. But i wont say that to him.


You INTPs hit my weak spots ;)
 

MaryJane

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Loves a bitch. At least if you believe in love! Which i certainly do ;).
 

Duxwing

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Loves a bitch. At least if you believe in love! Which i certainly do ;).

Would you mind posting his argument for us to review? Perhaps it contains fallacies that you missed.

-Duxwing
 

Hadoblado

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Would you mind posting his argument for us to review? Perhaps it contains fallacies that you missed.

-Duxwing

*snort*

That's the Duxwingest thing I've ever heard!
 

pjoa09

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There arent many asshole INTPs running around? I was married for 10 years to an INFP and the two guys are quite dissimilar. I was taken with so many of the INTP characteristics that ive read other people become enamored with... Never met anyone quite like him.

I think he is really an INTP. Just damaged.

It's just a bit outlandish to label someone as a weak Ti INTP. It's like calling a scrawny short guy a wrestler or body builder. Ti is the strongest function on an INTP.

The only two INFPs that I know can be and have been a bit asshole-ish. They both are intriguing and mysterious but you'll never know what they are about because they just don't treat you right when you try to get close.

I guess your experiences have been different.

There are stressed MBTI functions... the shadow functions make INTPs into ENTJs it seems. According to wikipedia. Maybe you may have a point with that damaged argument.

Maybe he just doesn't fit. I don't. I am an IXTP. I get the best and worst of both worlds.
 

PhoenixRising

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I took her comment that INTPs are "emotionally unstable" to mean that emotionally, they get overewhelmed with too much intimacy or feeling and need to be on their own for a little while. I can relate up to a certain extent to this as an introvert myself.


Yes, in general that's one thing that happens. But there's also the oscillation of Ti and Fe - Fe will cause us to be emotionally expressive and connect, but then eventually the reason of Ti will prevail and we go into a receding state of evaluating our emotions. If we find that our emotions/actions don't align with our logical framework, often they are discounted logically. This can lead to the end of the specific emotional engagement that was found to be out of place.

There is also the phenomenon of expectation of reciprocity and emotional debt that occurs with Fe. The nature of Fe is dual, this is amplified in INTPs since it is our polar function. If Fe gives something to someone, there is an automatic expectation of reciprocity. If this expectation isn't met for long enough/enough times, the dark nature of Fe emerges. This is a defensive state where the negative reaction causes distance between the INTP and the person they're dissatisfied with. It can take the form of biting criticism, attempts to change the other person, argument, cold distance, or in the most extreme cases, abandonment. Emotionally, the person that may have been loved before is seen as an enemy who is at fault for the situation.

A relationship with an INTP is a touchy balancing act with many components that requires self-actualization and a deep understanding between the two parties. It takes a lot of intellectual investment and knowledge of the true nature of human relationships.

imo, the difficulty of it is part of what makes it interesting. But for a lot of people it's too much to handle and causes too much heartache.
 

cheese

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INTPs are dickheads, basically. :p (No, I love you-us guysers.)

MaryJane, I believe there may be something there. Experience (with him) will be your surest teacher if you can manage to shut the overanalysis up (and presumably you'll have a better chance than we would). Posting the negatives on a forum biased against relationships in general will definitely skew you towards the negative side of the picture. At least this way, you give it another go and may learn enough about him/the two of you to work out how to make it work (or if it's possible).

It's interesting that he argued you into staying together... I wonder what that says.

His terror of being controlled and the scar he's got from his ex sound like inferior Fe to me. He's probably tried to excise that sensitive part of himself even more than the average INTP would, so that will be a tough mountain to climb.
 

MaryJane

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Types don't work like that. The letters stand on a continuum, the underlying functions that dictate actual behavior do not. Hence the former is irrelevant as far as MBTI type is concerned.

Ive been thinking about this-- since the test is designed to assess behavior, wouldnt it follow that you could get your type and then figure out your underlying functions from that? As well as vice versa? It seems it could go both ways.
 

MaryJane

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There are stressed MBTI functions... the shadow functions make INTPs into ENTJs it seems. According to wikipedia. Maybe you may have a point with that damaged argument.

Maybe he just doesn't fit. I don't. I am an IXTP. I get the best and worst of both worlds.

So what is an INXP then?? Maybe thats what he is. But do you come to that because both T type decisions and F type decisions are approximately equally developed? Or do you base it off the underlying functions being approximately equally developed? (Te and Fe??) And is there a difference?
 

MaryJane

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It's just a bit outlandish to label someone as a weak Ti INTP. It's like calling a scrawny short guy a wrestler or body builder. Ti is the strongest function on an INTP.

The only two INFPs that I know can be and have been a bit asshole-ish. They both are intriguing and mysterious but you'll never know what they are about because they just don't treat you right when you try to get close.

Well my ex infp husband couldnt get close enough to me. He was always wanting more.... But yes in his way he coukd be at timed a jerk. Which eventually led to our split. I just couldnt satisfy his need for really extreme intimacy. But i think too we can all be dickheads. People have thought i was a jerk because i like my tine alone and if you cross the "line of mo return" well, theres no return.

Your point about Ti being dominant does make me think. But then maybe they should revise the test somehow?? If you by definition have a low T and therefore arent an INTP.... The test would then seem flawed.
 

defghi

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Your point about Ti being dominant does make me think. But then maybe they should revise the test somehow?? If you by definition have a low T and therefore arent an INTP.... The test would then seem flawed.

The test is flawed, that's why the functions are what matter, not the letters assigned by the test. There is no such thing as a "low T", that's a completely meaningless phrase. You have to think in terms of dominant, auxiliary, etc. functions, and their direction, either i or e. It cannot be reconciled with the test.

Saying "an INTP with a low T" implies that the T is on a scale of it's own, so maybe it just drops from dominant to auxiliary or something. But if he's INFP it drops all the way to inferior and switches direction, it's actually the most different thing ever.

An INXP would be when you know their auxiliary and tertiary to be Ne-Si, but don't know their dominant inferior. It doesn't change the options of which ones they could have, it just means you don't know.
 

MaryJane

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Ok i had to get out my MBTI manual that came with the test. It only discusses underlying functions briefly, and takes the stance that first you find your four letters from the test, then you can figure out you dominant, auxiliary etc attitudes and direction.

It has one very small paragraph that says the attitude of the tertiary and inferior functions are contraversial among jungians. Thats all it really goes into about it.

So this other way of looking at it is interesting to me. I wonder why its not used among trained therapists, if its bern researched, who came up with it etc etc.

I will be back ;)
 

Nikolaj

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It would really take me a wisdom of hundred years to select what's worth from all of these posts. Anyway, I think many are giving their own projections on this topic, so it's not easy to stay focused after reading two or three posts. Most of them don't even hit directly into the hearth of your problem. Then you'll probably unconsciously going to project all of the things you've read if you are desperate to find solution to your problem. This is a fertile ground for making bad judgements, despite your desire not to take this things for granted. That's what I see in this.

Scorpiomover in the fourth post, gave the best opinion of all. He's words sound encouraging, informative, he has good suggestions, his confessions seem to support his point of view. He wasn't primarily concerned with point in which of the functions he has a problem. He understands the complexity not only of this typology but also of human being. I hear his words as fairly modest, not telling you what to do but giving you a chance to find out for your self. Read his message "Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." - Spock".

What I've noticed on forums generally is that everybody has some issues but they are "excellent" advisors for others. Having that in mind I never know who is responding to my question or statement, but I get a judgement or critic. I guess experience on forums gives an idea who are you dealing with, but everybody get that experience and get that idea.

If you were in a couple therapy (with a good therapist), you would go together every time. He would get to know what you think, you would get to know what you think. It won't be especially about him but also about you. For most people, it's not the same when they are asked a question by their love partner or by, in this case, therapist. Therapy evokes a certain attitude which implies that you'll solve some problem, because otherwise you would consciously engage in such activity. On therapy there is an conscientious witness of both of your behaviors, so one cannot easily say that other is wrong, because now you have to people that claim something, and one of them is EDUCATED.

I understand it's not easy for you but I cannot say anything specific about the issue because I don't know the two of you.

Best wishes. :)
 

pjoa09

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So what is an INXP then?? Maybe thats what he is. But do you come to that because both T type decisions and F type decisions are approximately equally developed? Or do you base it off the underlying functions being approximately equally developed? (Te and Fe??) And is there a difference?

The X is really just undecided. You said he's damaged so maybe his functions aren't standing out. It's stuck under layers of guilt or insecurity or something.

From your description I honestly see INFP. I am pretty amused how you recall an INFP being touchy.

Fis don't actually have feelings for people, just feelings for morals and ideas. They are the activists sort. Fes can be morally challenged.
 

cheese

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pjoa09 said:
Fis don't actually have feelings for people, just feelings for morals and ideas. Fes can be morally challenged.

Elaborate please?
 

MaryJane

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The X is really just undecided. You said he's damaged so maybe his functions aren't standing out. It's stuck under layers of guilt or insecurity or something.

From your description I honestly see INFP. I am pretty amused how you recall an INFP being touchy.

Fis don't actually have feelings for people, just feelings for morals and ideas. They are the activists sort. Fes can be morally challenged.

If INTPs have no feelings for others, why bother having morals?
 

MaryJane

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The X is really just undecided. You said he's damaged so maybe his functions aren't standing out. It's stuck under layers of guilt or insecurity or something.

From your description I honestly see INFP.

If hes an INFP, then hes crazier than i thought : O

An INFP who doesnt believe in love (as a thing) and constantly tries to keep people at arms length?

And whos always discussing everything with me with pure logic, no emotions expressed.

He did say he experiences jeslousy but then.....explained that if he felt strong enough jealousy, that would therefore mean there was not enough trust in the relationship, and so he would end it. Very logical to me....
 

Duxwing

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If hes an INFP, then hes crazier than i thought : O

An INFP who doesnt believe in love (as a thing) and constantly tries to keep people at arms length?

And whos always discussing everything with me with pure logic, no emotions expressed.

He did say he experiences jeslousy but then.....explained that if he felt strong enough jealousy, that would therefore mean there was not enough trust in the relationship, and so he would end it. Very logical to me....

I think that you were on the right track when you said that he was an emotionally damaged INTP.

-Duxwing
 

pjoa09

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If hes an INFP, then hes crazier than i thought : O

An INFP who doesnt believe in love (as a thing) and constantly tries to keep people at arms length?

And whos always discussing everything with me with pure logic, no emotions expressed.

He did say he experiences jeslousy but then.....explained that if he felt strong enough jealousy, that would therefore mean there was not enough trust in the relationship, and so he would end it. Very logical to me....

Hmmm...... whats a weak Ti then?


Jealousy is insecurity.

Quite obvious.

I guess I am out of cards here.


You could push some buttons and see how he reacts and if his views align with the functions.
 
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