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I'm 34 and still don't know what to do with my life. GAAAA!

brain enclosed in flesh

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I'll be 35 in two months, to clear that up. Even more dire, see?

I think I need a career. I think it will require me going back to school. I want to major in something that actually has the potential of leading to a job. (The B.A. in Film Studies didn't exactly pay off.)

But I want to enjoy it. Academia seems cool, especially being an English professor, but I have a brother who's tried that route and it doesn't exactly seem like there are multitudes of jobs lying around. I also like in-depth journalism, free-lance writing, but journalism is knocking on death's door and I don't think I am enough of an initiator for the free-lance deal.

I envy all of you INTPs who are skilled and excited by math and the sciences. I mean, I find some sciences interesting, like entomology, but am I interested in it enough to make it lifelong? I kind of doubt it. But maybe?

I'm working on a novel, but again, I think I'm a little too free-floaty to make that into something of a paying career.

How the hell does anyone decide on anything and stick to it, not to mention, continue to like it?

Thinking about all of this drives me nuts. I need advice- any and all.

Thank you.
 

flow

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Thank you. I'm 22 and completely clueless on which direction to take my life as well. Everything is interesting, no niches fit for me. My favorite classes while going for a B.A. in general studies were in the fields of psychology and anthropology..but careers in those fields require M.D.'s or PhDs and that amount of education and debt I just don't want. Life is too complicated.
 

EditorOne

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I have bad news for you.

I'm 59 and don't know what I want to be when I grow up.

At this point I think I'm entitled to suspect that I might never grow up.

Normal people would urge you to pick something and make a go of it. Being an INTP I'm going to point out what you will probably already know even if you haven't articulated it: No matter what you pick, there's a good chance you'll get tired of it.

My time span is about 3 years.

Fortunately journalism has allowed me to pursue new interests at about that time span.

Lately it's getting to be shorter. I learned to be an online editor two years ago, for three months, before I became executive editor. Now, apparently, I have to learn to be an accountant , as part of my editing job, if I want anyone here to get paid. You might suspect accounting and the INTP personality are not a very good match. You'd be right.

I wouldn't worry too much about your lack of focus. Comfort yourself with the realization that you can probably succeed at anything to which you turn your hand, and then look around for something fun.

I still hold out hope of being a pirate. I see it's back in vogue.
 

chocolate

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I had your problem. I will share my experience.

For me, I thought about what my ideal job would have. I needed autonomy, space (and encouragment even) to be creative/inventive, social interaction (I'm an E), intellectual challenge, flexibility, lots of change, and access to lots of smart, interesting people, security (i.e. work somewhere established, I think I'd be lost if I had to start my own business or something!), time and opportunity for travel, lots of free (not lazy but free) time, and most important, to do something I love and that excites me (that is math for me). I also needed to feel that I am affecting people around me on some kind of systemic level (hence the teaching: I can make people better! and nicer! people), and where I am free to be an idealist, and a place where personal politics is at the minimum possible. I really have no patience or skill for politics.

I decided that academia fulfilled all of those in the best way that was realistic, and once I decided that (and that was a huge decision that took two years to make even after I was well into grad school), I went for it. It is the only thing in my life that I am (practically speaking) J about! :)

So my 'advice' or whatever, is think of what kind of life you want to have, think of what job would fulfill that as best as possible, and then just stick to it and go for it. I had lots of doubts along the way (we always will as Ps), but knowing that I had made a careful, rational decision and that I had considered things in a lot of depth, I know that it is a good decision.

I look at it this way: we can either not really do 100 things because we can't pick one and we like everything, or we can pick one that we will actually do, and still not really do 99 things that we wanted. Either way we're not doing about the same number of things, so we are about equal in our Pness and lack of committing to things. So we're not really closing any more doors than we would if we didn't pick anything at all. It makes sense to me, but I may not be making sense to you...
 

chocolate

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PS I should add that I continue to like it because it's always different. It is important I think for NTPs to pick something where we're always learning and being challenged and have the freedom to always explore new things. If you pick something like that, I'm not sure you'll have a problem continuing to like it...

PPS It is true that academic jobs are hard to come by. This fact never factored into my decision because I didn't realize it. I lucked out; not everybody does...
 

EditorOne

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"I should add that I continue to like it because it's always different."

That's an important key. A thing that keeps changing is just as good as lots of different things. :)
 

Huh!?!

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Thank you for starting this thread brain enclosed in flesh.

I'm a newbie here - Greetings All - and have been lurking around the site when I stumbled upon this.

I am in a very similar position, except I have a few years on you, and am currently paralysed with thinking about what I should do. I even went travelling for 6 months purely in order not to confront the issue.

Obviously that didn't work.
 

eudemonia

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Hi Brain,
You don't know me but I have just come back to the forum after vowing I wouldn't come back :o because of time commitments.

Anyway, I'm 49 and I've just decided what I want to do :) and I'm in the middle of making the transition.

A few points I notice:

1. you say that you are attracted to a particular career....BUT. Ahhh, those 'buts'! They stop us from doing anything. There will always be tons of reasons why you shouldn't try something and all of those reasons will be logical. When you identify the right direction, you'll demolish those buts. Or, another way of putting it. Allow your brain to explore the ideas and every time a 'but' comes along, write it down and then put it aside. 'Buts' are challenges and maybe even problems; they are NOT reasons for not pursuing what you really want to do. They seem to serve the function of preventing us from even thinking about what we really want. Put the buts aside and allow yourself to dream.

2. these ideas of yours, how deeply have you considered or pursued them? How did you identify them in the first place? I agree with Chocolate's advice. Reflect on those times in your life when you have really felt in flow, happy, effortlessly pursuing an activity in which you have felt fulfilled. Identify what it was about that activity that brought you happiness and fulfilment. Writing and literature appears to crop up in your post a bit. What is it about writing, literature, teaching, academia....that attracts you? What do people come to you for? What do you appear to do effortlessly and with enjoyment? These are clues that may help you discover a deeper connection to what you want to do.

3. This is a bit strange:

I think I need a career. I think it will require me going back to school. I want to major in something that actually has the potential of leading to a job. (The B.A. in Film Studies didn't exactly pay off.)

Do you need or want a career? Why? What are you doing at the moment that makes you need a career? Are you enjoying yourself now? Are there other pressures that make you feel as if you 'should' have a career? One of the important elements that will help you identify a career that is more like a calling is ensuring you connect with your own 'voice'. Me, I pursued a couple of careers driven by a need for 'status', because of pressures I inherited in my childhood. Actually, I shoudl have become a teacher - although now I am becoming a lecturer at a local business school. The pay's crap; the business school is not well-known and I'm loving it. For the first time I'm connecting with what I am doing. Iknew I should have gone into teaching but I dismissed it because the pay is so rubbish and everyone looks down on teaching.

If you want to spend some time thinking in depth about these things I would recommend 'Build your own rainbow'by Hopson and Scally or 'what colour is your parachute' by Bolles. Both books have workbooks with questions and exercises that help you identify what you want.

Happy hunting:)
 

Toad

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35 eh? That's pretty damn old. LoL. j/k..

It's hard to find what you want to do these days right? Sometimes...I wished we lived in a futuristic socialist world where the government would access you from when you were born and tell you your career upon completion of school. That would save you from so much stress.

I'm in no position to give you advice. I'm way younger than you and I have no job or experience. So I'm probably worse off than you. All I can do is sympathize with you. It sucks when you don't know what to do with your life and are about to go homeless... sigh...
 

Sugarpop

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^Best screenname ever, newbie!

I'm about to leave the part of the education system where you get away with keeping all options open. 'University' is the most specific thing I'm able to say about my future. Is there no way I can study all aspects of reality and get paid for it?
 

Huh!?!

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I thank you.

I am, unfortunately, in no position to dispense advice and probably wouldn't anyway but enjoy entering the 'melee' as an INTP.
 

mathy

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Ahh Chocolate, your job sounds amazing. I would love to be a professor of Math or Physics (or both). Or study the stars and the planets... there would always something to discover. Although teaching and research are hand in hand, fortunately! Maybe one day... after lots more school... :(

I would also enjoy being an artist, and will probably still do that as a side hobby.

It was so hard for me to choose something, and I think I've learned a lot about myself the last couple of years. After a couple of (fairly short-term) jobs, I definitely know what I don't want. Basically I have to think that my interests change rapidly and forcefully... so I need something that will be changing, but stable at the same time? Academia seems like a good fit for me.

But I'm going to doubt every decision I make every step of the way....... alas.
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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Lots to chew on. I'll start here:

Fortunately journalism has allowed me to pursue new interests at about that time span.

Lately it's getting to be shorter. I learned to be an online editor two years ago, for three months, before I became executive editor. Now, apparently, I have to learn to be an accountant , as part of my editing job, if I want anyone here to get paid. You might suspect accounting and the INTP personality are not a very good match. You'd be right.

I wouldn't worry too much about your lack of focus. Comfort yourself with the realization that you can probably succeed at anything to which you turn your hand, and then look around for something fun.

How'd you get into journalism, Editor One? My guess is you have been doing it for awhile- are you a copy editor or a page editor or what? Do you work for an actual news agency? Are they hiring anyone ever again? It seems like a hopeless situation, journalism. That's all I ever here about it, how everything's going up in flames. If that weren't the case, I would consider entering that field- here we go, eudemonia- BUT, I am not going to go back to school and spend buckets of cash on something fruitless, as I did with my film studies major. (I think I'm finally paying off the student loan this year, eleven years post graduation.)

Also, the realization that I can probably succeed at whatever I do, not so comforting. That's kind of why I'm in the situation that I'm in in the first place. I imagine other INTPs can relate to that. This specialized world is kind of a tough place for us. I think I'd be comforted if there was one thing that stood out above all else.

originally posted by eudemonia :
1. you say that you are attracted to a particular career....BUT. Ahhh, those 'buts'! They stop us from doing anything. There will always be tons of reasons why you shouldn't try something and all of those reasons will be logical. When you identify the right direction, you'll demolish those buts. Or, another way of putting it. Allow your brain to explore the ideas and every time a 'but' comes along, write it down and then put it aside. 'Buts' are challenges and maybe even problems; they are NOT reasons for not pursuing what you really want to do. They seem to serve the function of preventing us from even thinking about what we really want. Put the buts aside and allow yourself to dream.

Nice advice, although I'm tired of dreaming. I'm ready to wake up and be both realistic and content at the same time. If you want my version of fantasy land, though, here we go:

I would finish my novel and I would be happy with it. I would have enough drive to do something with it, as in get it published, along with that children's book I wrote and illustrated two years ago that is sitting on a shelf some where. Maybe I would write more stuff; maybe I wouldn't. If I were to write more, I would allow my Ne to just take off and write some completely out there material and not give a shit whether it made sense or not. I would be comfortable with that and not feel like an illogical loser idiot.

Maybe I would teach college or something. Maybe I would be an expert in something and I would be consulted for advice on films or something. Maybe I would suddenly discover I was the long-lost cousin of some filthy-rich aristocrat and I would be independently wealthy for the rest of my life. On the side I could dabble in philanthropy, like Bill Gates. I'd be a nice rich person, not an overindulgent lame one.

2. these ideas of yours, how deeply have you considered or pursued them? How did you identify them in the first place? I agree with Chocolate's advice. Reflect on those times in your life when you have really felt in flow, happy, effortlessly pursuing an activity in which you have felt fulfilled. Identify what it was about that activity that brought you happiness and fulfilment. Writing and literature appears to crop up in your post a bit. What is it about writing, literature, teaching, academia....that attracts you? What do people come to you for? What do you appear to do effortlessly and with enjoyment? These are clues that may help you discover a deeper connection to what you want to do.

Okay, yes, writing and literature. I am happiest when I am either reading or writing. I am also a good editor (I worked on the school newspapers in both high school and college). I have been told by people whom I respect that I am a good writer. What attracts me about teaching is I like sharing my excitement about learning/discovering things with others. Unfortunately, I don't have many of those others in my life right now. It seems teaching might fill that void. That said, I typically dislike writers. They always seem so full of themselves and connected with their emotions while I feel like- well, a brain enclosed in flesh.

3. Do you need or want a career? Why? What are you doing at the moment that makes you need a career? Are you enjoying yourself now? Are there other pressures that make you feel as if you 'should' have a career? One of the important elements that will help you identify a career that is more like a calling is ensuring you connect with your own 'voice'. Me, I pursued a couple of careers driven by a need for 'status', because of pressures I inherited in my childhood. Actually, I shoudl have become a teacher - although now I am becoming a lecturer at a local business school. The pay's crap; the business school is not well-known and I'm loving it. For the first time I'm connecting with what I am doing. Iknew I should have gone into teaching but I dismissed it because the pay is so rubbish and everyone looks down on teaching.

I don't NEED a career. My husband has a well-paid, as of now stable job. I kind of want a career because for one, I'm kind of just floating around in my house right now, lacking direction. I was being good about staying focused on my writing for about a year and a half, but that all kind of evaporated. I'm trying to return to it, stay focused on it, but I'm struggling. Sticking to task and self-discipline aren't exactly my strengths, and I am trying to do something which requires an enormous amount of both. Having internet access doesn't exactly help. :rolleyes:

I want a career as well because I feel like I'm becoming more and more introverted and dependent on my husband every day. I don't like that feeling. I'm concerned I will turn into an agoraphobic freak who is incapable of taking care of herself. I miss the satisfaction that I got from completing and turning in papers and getting good grades and being told that I was a talented individual. I don't care about being well-paid so much. If it's a job that I like that pays something, that's good for me.

If you want to spend some time thinking in depth about these things I would recommend 'Build your own rainbow'by Hopson and Scally or 'what colour is your parachute' by Bolles. Both books have workbooks with questions and exercises that help you identify what you want.

Thanks, but oh good lord, I've done all that shit multiple, multiple times. It has never helped me, and I don't think it ever will.

Chocolate, I liked your advice as well, especially what you said about picking one thing out of a hundred and doing it. I was good like that for a year when I was focused on my writing. I have to be really strict about it, though, in order for it to work- no more playing my guitar, no more reading fiction AT ALL, etc. Anyway, yours was a good reminder of how I have strayed. I'm glad you like your job. You are very fortunate.

But I have written way too much already. Gracias, all. Any more advice anyone else has (or commiseration), I will gladly take!
 

Ogion

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NIA!!! Welcome back :)

Haha, thanks EditorOne, once again, for a really niec post ;)

Me <--22, and having the same problem. Studying something (potentially quite interesting, Geography) at uni, though it is not "my main interest"/"my passion" (which i haven't found yet, i think), having no idea what i'll be doing in five years.
The problem, the conflict arises between my general attitude, and social reality. To clarify: I am a person very much living in the here and now. I mean, i always live in the moment, i never plan ahead much, or pay overly much attention to my past. Societal reality however kinda demands from me smoe planning ahead.
I haven't really tried it yet, but i think my dreams would lie somewhere in the simple life of a farmer and being alone. Though to achieve that, it would require a major change in my life. Actually no, not a change. My life atm is more like just going with the mass, taking the standard path (heavily influenced by parents of course). So it would require my taking the courage and breaking away from that standard path.
And exactly that step, to break away from the path and find your own, is what is kinda scary, so that i want to be definitely sure that the new path will be 'the passion' of my life.
(What i fail to see is, i think, that the momentary path i am taking is most probably not 'my passion' either, so what can go wrong?)

So my only advice, which as much goes to me too, is: Find your passion. Find what you really care about, what really, and in the long-term!, interests you...And then, when you found it, muster the courage to pursue it.

Sorry, I'm not much help here :(

Ogion
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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Ogion, were you reading my diary from when I was 22 again? I am serious here. If you are the ghost of my past, then I am the ghost of your future. Beware! :eek:

(I wanted to be a farmer and raise goats, I think. You know, when I wasn't writing my novel and spinning my cloth from the wool and making cheese from their milk and renovating the old barn into an awesome farm house, that is.)
 

Ogion

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Hehe. You won't believe ut, but i write diary too and i have one entry of it translated and posted in another thread. And indeed it is about this topic...:D:D:D

See here...

(Only one problem though, i'm male and you're female, right? Wait, does that mean i'll be female in the future? :eek::phear:)

:p :D

Ogion
 

EloquentBohemian

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One thing, as INTP's, I think is common is that we love to learn. Not to acquire skills or professions, but that the journey of discovery is what drives us. I know that this is true for me. I will come across a subject and delve into it, exploring all its little corners digging for what 'makes it tick' and what it is made of. We love discussing these discoveries with others who enjoy them just as much as we do, which is probably why some of us are here on this Forum. I think we need a constant input of new 'architectures' to explore. Without them, life becomes merely existing, and that's when we begin to wither.
I think that INTP's (and possibly other types) are not so much constant 'explorers' as we are 'students' and life is our 'school'.

The problem lies with the societies we live in. Exploration is not the primal motivation of these societies, preservation and production are. In the vast array of 'employment possibilities' out there, very very few offer room to explore when and where one feels the pull. And this is the dilemma.
Learning is not our 'hobby', learning is our life-blood, and to put that which feeds our minds into a secondary position (or less) in life is depressing and unpalatable.

How I see it, anyway.
 

eudemonia

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Hey Ogion - howya doing?:D I just couldn't keep away, could I? Good to see you as busy as ever on the forum - nearly 2000 posts:D


that makes it a bit clearer Brain. I identify with your position as I have had over a year out now depending on my husband's steady income too. One thing I did find is that I need deadlines. If I don't have them, I cannot get myself motivated even by things that interest me. What helped me move outside of my comfort zone torpor was getting out and talking to people, a step at a time. Once I had decided on what I wanted to do (and it sounds like you''re there or nearly there) I just made appointments to see people and talk about it. Once you start meeting people you have momentum - preparing for meetings, making commitments, meeting other people, opening doors. It worked for me because the conversations I started to have energised and inspired me again. Also opportunities started to manifest themselves. I know what you mean by brain enclosed in flesh too - its too easy (if you don't HAVE to work) to remain in a little comfortable cocoon, except, it gets, well, boring. Forums alleviate the boredom so take the edge off the impulse to act :(;) But, what would we do without them?:)
 

EditorOne

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"How'd you get into journalism, Editor One? My guess is you have been doing it for awhile- are you a copy editor or a page editor or what? Do you work for an actual news agency? Are they hiring anyone ever again? It seems like a hopeless situation, journalism. That's all I ever here about it, how everything's going up in flames. If that weren't the case, I would consider entering that field- here we go, eudemonia- BUT, I am not going to go back to school and spend buckets of cash on something fruitless, as I did with my film studies major. (I think I'm finally paying off the student loan this year, eleven years post graduation.)"

Journalism just happens to a lot of people who seem oddly unsuited to other things. It allows, in fact requires, that you indulge your curiosity, that you move fast and walk away even faster after having learned enough about a situation to cogently share what you've learned with others. I got into it after a year, after college, spent working as a carpenter. A few February days spent putting cedar shingles on a three-story house on the New Jersey shore, temperature 15 and wind 20 mph out of the northwest, makes even a low-paying job as a reporter look good. I qualified because I'm a good, disciplined writer and was coachable for newspaper writing, and because I'd already done it -- started a school paper in seventh grade, worked for the college paper at Syracuse U, it was always something I could do without any real effort.

And it always -- others may appreciate this -- let me be where interesting and often important things were taking place, but did not require me to actually become involved in them. Looking back, I can see INTP all over that attitude, but I didnt' discover I was an INTP until I was in my 30s. Prior to that I thought I was defective, possibly an alien from Tralfamadore or something.

I am at this point, late in my career, exec editor of a small "newspaper" in northeastern Pennsylvania. "Newspaper" is no longer the right word, since we embrace much more. Just about the entire formerly "print only" staff is now supporting an online site that excels in getting breaking news out so fast everyone's head spins. We've also got an integrated system of text messaging and email alerts to stimulate our "customers" by telling them of news happening right now and directing them with links where to go on our site to find it. It is not at all like the old days, and while times are tough, they are not impossible. We've had other tough times, and I am encouraged by the spread of the idea that a class of people who actually go out and find out what's going on, rather than sitting by a computer claiming they know, is increasingly recognized as valuable. We'll come out the other side of this mess with something that will always require "journalists," or, as I put it, people so consumed with curiousity they won't stop until it is assuaged, and then so intrigued by their discoveries that they are compelled to share. That's a journalist. How the learning takes place and how the sharing takes place is really a function of what technology is available.

You can look for more and more sites where information is gathered by people specifically assembled for that reason, as content gatherers, to require a fee for the information produced. Just as you pay for shoes online, you'll pay for vetted information. Government propaganda, political agendas disguised as news, and psychotic ramblings, along with all the opinion by wannabe commentators writing from their basement lairs, will be free, perhaps ad supported.

The "information wants to be free" mantra was amusing, but is kind of childish. Information costs money to produce and gather, like any other commodity. Try going to your Starbucks and telling the manager his coffee "wants to be free" and let me know what he says. :-)

Keep in mind, of course, that journalism doesn't require much in the way of "expensive training." Some of the best journalists I've ever hired were not journalists. One was a drummer in a rock and roll band who went on to become a business writer. And journalism is easily left behind. Former journalists I've know who lost their zest for the job became lawyers, stock brokers, social workers, investigators for state attorneys general, and one is now serving as a judge on the New Jersey Supreme Court. It is an occupation that, done right, produces a multitude of socially valuable contacts, even among people who might not emerge in a flattering light in your stories. Respect is an odd thing, it comes as often from people with whom you tangle as it does from those with whom you have a nonconfrontational relationship.

This might not be the best time, however, as the media in general are shedding people to get through the economic mess, and some very, very good journalists are out there beating the bushes for jobs right now.

Hope that is useful.
 

Ogion

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Heh, to be honest though i'm not as active as i was last year (i don't read all threads anymore and such) ;)

@EB: Yep, exactly. And the additional thing that nobody understands is, that "learning" does not mean 'getting an education, do exams, getting a grade, etc.'. They mistake "learning" for "studying". That's why i think, if i don't find 'my passion' someday, i will want some kind of job that demands as little cognitive capacity as possible, so that most of it is available for private use ;)

Ogion
 

'slinger

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"learning" does not mean 'getting an education, do exams, getting a grade, etc.'. They mistake "learning" for "studying". That's why i think, if i don't find 'my passion' someday, i will want some kind of job that demands as little cognitive capacity as possible, so that most of it is available for private use ;)

Ogion

At age 30, this is where I stand. No job is really acceptable to me. I have no passion. I just want something mindless that I can do while thinking about something more important. Too bad about the death of the assembly line. At least in North America.
 

Concojones

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Interesting thread! Excellent contributions!

Brain, a lot of what you described rings a bell with me. I'm 27, engineering degree, interests that have shifted to business, work experience in business but job didn't live up to my expectations... I have a clear vision/ambition, but there's a humongous gap with what's realistic, medium term (no direct route). So, I'm a bit lost, like you. What to do? So many options, all of them with pros and cons but none ideal...;) Meanwhile, time goes by and I miss that sense of accomplishment that I used to have. Action is required but where I do shoot... So yes your story sounds familiar! ;)

To get where you want to be:
- try to build on what you already have and don't go back to university unless you have a very (!) good reason.
- structure your days agressively so that you don't have too much free time on your hands. Within the time left, follow an action plan with few, carefully chosen steps and very short deadlines.
- execute plan B while you haven't found the ideal (plan A) yet. You may even find (as so many people have) that B leads to A.
- go with your gut (when making choices)
- remember we don't have to choose one fixed occupation for the rest of our lives; a lifetime is long enough to do various things.
 

Anling

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One thing I did find is that I need deadlines. If I don't have them, I cannot get myself motivated even by things that interest me. What helped me move outside of my comfort zone torpor was getting out and talking to people, a step at a time.

I have found this as well. Just today I was deciding that I need to get myself on some sort of schedual so that I will actually do something. So, as annoying as I tend to find them, I'm thinking I need to get myself a planner and set myself some deadlines. And then I'll probably have to stick a sticky note on my mirror or on one of the books I never put away to remind me to open the planner up and look at what I've put in the blasted thing.
 

QSR

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Very good thread... I think the idea of finding your passion is nearly impossible for an INTP. Our passion is learning about new things, which sort of precludes you from doing any one thing all that well. There may be a lucky few who have avoided this trap.

I've been reading a book that explores this subject pretty well. It's called Awakening the Entrepreneur Within by Michael Gerber. Instead of getting the bullshit career assessments like those Parachute books, he is addressing people who are planning to go into a creative enterprise. Basically you need to forget about your own desires (good for INTP since we don't have a single one), and think about creating something that has value to a number of people. It comes down to being able to channel your abilities into something that can improve other people's lives. Otherwise you could end up in the trap of trying to please yourself in your job and figuring out how to buy more crap that will make up for the pain of having to go to a job in the first place.

INTPs make terrible employees anyway. We're much better as creators and facilitators, rather than being in some monotonous desk job where people spend their day backstabbing their co-workers. Try to be more creative. We owe it to the world. *Most of us know we're not here to serve God or any other sort of SJ-type fantasy. The INTP has to create his or her own purpose. It's Hard! But we can do it. Remember Lincoln managed to free the slaves and Einstein discovered relativity. We're not all destined to be basement-dwelling potheads.
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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The last two posts lead perfectly to something that I wanted to bring up/propose.

I talked to an ENTP this weekend- I know this because something he said was extremely xNTP which led to me bringing up MBTI which of course he knew all about. We had one of the better conversations I've had in awhile.

Anyway, he's been toying with the idea for awhile of having a motivation/deadline club. Once a week or so the group would convene(of course for him it would be about getting together physically because he's an E). At each meeting the members would have to prove that they had accomplished whatever deadlines they had set for themselves at the previous meeting.

I consider this to be a good idea- to an extent. I know this would be short-lived for me. I could stick to one meeting, I suppose, but then I would find an excuse to no longer continue.

My idea- an internet service you would subscribe to. If you didn't meet your deadline, it would spread all sorts of defamatory information about you to the world- your name attached. Or it would kidnap your dog or set fire to your house or break your fingers... strong arm you in whatever ways you decided when you first subscribed.

Okay, so maybe I'm not serious... completely. But... what about a motivation/deadline club of our own? Or something like it.

Any ideas?
 

Ogion

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Well, it is certainly true, for me anyways, that outside expectations are a much better 'motivator' for me doing something than internal motivatord (that are not alway really convinced the thing to be important). It's easier for me to bring myself to do something i have no interest in if it is for someone else (and even if it is only someone else's expectation) than if i am the only person 'pushing' me to do it. (Unless it is important and i see that).

Ogion
 

EditorOne

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A series of short deadlines seem to work well for us. when I was cranking out a book my rule was that on the mornings I'd tackle it, at least two mornings each week, I'd reread the last 2,000words I'd written and then write 2,000 more. It proved to be an effective procedure, managable yet challenging goals and always in chunks that acould be accomplished in, oh, gusts? sprints? rather than through daily pedaling toward some enormous goal of 100,000 words or whatever.

It worked for me. Your mileage may vary.
 

Razare

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You might suspect accounting and the INTP personality are not a very good match. You'd be right.

I think accounting rules... honestly, you can spend hours finding various loopholes in tax law that some guy at H&R Block will never pick up on. Then there's the auditing for fraud and errors which is interesting, I think.

Basic book keeping is kinda boring yeah, but that's just prerequisite stuff you learn in the beginning. This all said, I don't believe INTPs are suited for traditional accounting jobs, but in the field of auditing, especially forensic auditing, INTPs would probably be the best in the field at it.
 

brain enclosed in flesh

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A series of short deadlines seem to work well for us. when I was cranking out a book my rule was that on the mornings I'd tackle it, at least two mornings each week, I'd reread the last 2,000words I'd written and then write 2,000 more. It proved to be an effective procedure, managable yet challenging goals and always in chunks that acould be accomplished in, oh, gusts? sprints? rather than through daily pedaling toward some enormous goal of 100,000 words or whatever.

It worked for me. Your mileage may vary.

Good idea. I'll give it a shot. Thanks.
 

QSR

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The concept of "short sprints" has become central to the state of the art in software development theory. Also timeboxing. Basically you get 2 weeks to deliver something of value, then you stop, re-evaluate, and move on to the next thing. Theoretically you will improve your process with each successive sprint, by encouraging input from those participating.

I'm trying to figure out how to be disciplined enough to apply this to my own life. I have a hard time making commitments, and then sticking to them. Say for instance I'll say I've got 2 hours to work on such and such and get it done in that time. I guess I need to use my planner more. Basically forcing J-ness onto yourself.
 

Concojones

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A problem I have is that 'technical' matters (engineering, accounting, law, ...) only interest me to some extent. I think of them as 'irrelevant' tasks that consume valuable attention. I would rather delegate them and reserve my attention for 'what is really important' (the overall, grand, ambitious project).

We're generally advised to specialize in our career, but I have a tendency to avoid anything specialized. Essentially, something in me wants to have impact, make a difference, and every minute spent on further specialization feels like a minute lost that could have been used to make a difference where it really matters.
 

chocolate

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Ahh Chocolate, your job sounds amazing. I would love to be a professor of Math or Physics (or both). Or study the stars and the planets... there would always something to discover. Although teaching and research are hand in hand, fortunately! Maybe one day... after lots more school... :(

I would also enjoy being an artist, and will probably still do that as a side hobby.

It was so hard for me to choose something, and I think I've learned a lot about myself the last couple of years. After a couple of (fairly short-term) jobs, I definitely know what I don't want. Basically I have to think that my interests change rapidly and forcefully... so I need something that will be changing, but stable at the same time? Academia seems like a good fit for me.

But I'm going to doubt every decision I make every step of the way....... alas.

Hey mathy, actually I don't start for another two months! But I am getting pretty excited about making the leap to the other side! About your last sentence. Yes. That is the P. It will never go away! :)
 

Concojones

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About your last sentence [doubting your choices]. Yes. That is the P. It will never go away! :)
Anyone familiar with Barry Schwartz’s book "The Paradox of Choice"? The message is that choice make us unhappy (we doubt our choices). And what are we P's so good at? Seeing choices, that's right! We're DOOMED!! :D

NY Times said:
Schwarz argues, with terrible persuasiveness, that a superabundance of options is not a blessing but a certain recipe for madness. Nowhere do people have more choices than in New York. “New Yorkers should probably be the most unhappy people on the planet,” says Schwartz, a psychology professor at Swarthmore. “On every block, there’s a lifetime’s worth of opportunities. And if I’m right, either they won’t be able to choose or they will choose, and they’ll be convinced they chose badly.”

Economists have a term for those who seek out the best options in life. They call them maximizers. And maximizers, in practically every study one can find, are far more miserable than people who are willing to make do (economists call these people satisficers). “My suspicion,” says Schwartz, “is that all this choice creates maximizers.” If that’s the case, New York doesn’t just attract ambitious neurotics; it creates them. It also creates desires for things we don’t need—which, not coincidentally, is the business of Madison Avenue—and, as a corollary, pointless regrets, turning us all into a city of counterfactual historians, men and women who obsessively imagine different and better outcomes for ourselves.
Amazon review said:
I learned from reading this book that we should all strive to be satisficers rather maximizers. A satisficer is a person who chooses a product or service that is good enough. A maximizer is a person who is always trying to get the best product. A satisficer is usually happy with their choice. In contrast, a maximizer isn't happy and often regrets what they bought.

I'm definitely guilty of this, esp. when it comes to career (started 2y ago). Constantly questioning my choices and considering career changes. I'd definitely be better of remembering that choosing a career that's "pretty cool" (not necessarily the absolute best) would leave me better off (happier).

Just wanted to share this insight with you P's. ;)
 

chocolate

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Anyone familiar with Barry Schwartz’s book "The Paradox of Choice"? The message is that choice make us unhappy (we doubt our choices). And what are we P's so good at? Seeing choices, that's right! We're DOOMED!! :D




I'm definitely guilty of this, esp. when it comes to career (started 2y ago). Constantly questioning my choices and considering career changes. I'd definitely be better of remembering that choosing a career that's "pretty cool" (not necessarily the absolute best) would leave me better off (happier).

Just wanted to share this insight with you P's. ;)

Thanks for the book recommendation conco!

I can't seem to quote the 'satisfier' part, but it reminds me of this:

I have recently come up with a choice theory. There are good choices and bad choices. But it is impossible to make the 'best' choice in advance. So what we can do is decide which choices are likely to fall into the good category (huge T exercise). There will probably be a few. After that, use your F (I know -- I said use your F!!! ;) ) or do a weighted pros/cons list, or some other way of picking one, and it will be the best choice because it will be the only one you picked. In other words, best = certified-by-T-in-advance good + your participation (something like quantum physics :)). I'm sure mistakes will be made in the first stage, but what else can we do? It's our T that we trust the most after all. So I think of this as a way to rely on my T to feel satisfied that I've made the best decision in the end, and it's the best way to deal with revisitations. "But did I really want to do that after all? YES, I spent hours and months deciding it in a very logical way, so yes, I DO want to do it!".
 

Waterstiller

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What do you do if you're an INTP and just want a relatively stable entry-level job with decent health insurance?



Working in-depth on one creative challenge at a time and the opportunity to give it their full attention without a lot of interruptions.
The chance to apply logic to theories to find solutions and develop innovative approaches and systems but not get bogged down in the details of implementation.
When given an environment which supports his/her creative genius and possible eccentricity, the INTP can accomplish truly remarkable things
An opportunity to work on theoretical rather than practical applications.
The opportunity to work on projects without having to lead or control other people.
Work that has very high standards for performance, matching their own high standards.
An atmosphere of professionalism and mutual respect, where their expertise is recognized and respected and they have some say in how they are evaluated and compensated.
The chance to logically analyze existing and potential systems and make recommendations for strategically sound changes.
An unstructured environment that encourages free thinking and improvisation, without senseless rules, unnecessary meetings, or paperwork.
Usually brilliant and ingenious, INTPs need work where they can be independent and original.
What entry-level jobs would satisfy this? All I usually see are likely INTP careers.. but I need something right now that wouldn't drive me nuts.
 

RubberDucky451

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One thing, as INTP's, I think is common is that we love to learn. Not to acquire skills or professions, but that the journey of discovery is what drives us. I know that this is true for me. I will come across a subject and delve into it, exploring all its little corners digging for what 'makes it tick' and what it is made of. We love discussing these discoveries with others who enjoy them just as much as we do, which is probably why some of us are here on this Forum. I think we need a constant input of new 'architectures' to explore. Without them, life becomes merely existing, and that's when we begin to wither.
I think that INTP's (and possibly other types) are not so much constant 'explorers' as we are 'students' and life is our 'school'.

The problem lies with the societies we live in. Exploration is not the primal motivation of these societies, preservation and production are. In the vast array of 'employment possibilities' out there, very very few offer room to explore when and where one feels the pull. And this is the dilemma.
Learning is not our 'hobby', learning is our life-blood, and to put that which feeds our minds into a secondary position (or less) in life is depressing and unpalatable.

How I see it, anyway.

This is very true. I feel very depressed and lonely when I'm not learning. I feel like I'm interested in everything single odd theory or subject I stumble upon. I'm always collecting info to read later that i never delve into. When i finally go into college I'm sure i will enjoy it thoroughly.
 
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brain, is your Husband's income steady?

if so, i think (as a couple have said) the only way to be happy for types like us is to do what we love and be creative. you say you are too unfocussed to be a writer but why not work to improve? you have a talent -
make money out of it and have a hell of a good time
smiley_emoticons_hurra2.gif


i think it is the only way you will feel fulfilled...




EDIT: i am probably being very naive here (lol)
and you're and english teacher/professor! :) *seducer imagines lesson* :)
 

Beat Mango

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A series of short deadlines seem to work well for us. when I was cranking out a book my rule was that on the mornings I'd tackle it, at least two mornings each week, I'd reread the last 2,000words I'd written and then write 2,000 more. It proved to be an effective procedure, managable yet challenging goals and always in chunks that acould be accomplished in, oh, gusts? sprints? rather than through daily pedaling toward some enormous goal of 100,000 words or whatever.

It worked for me. Your mileage may vary.

Oh gosh, INTP theory strikes again. It took me 3 years of uni to work out the exact same thing - that I was better off writing my essays in one go. The whole plan it, work on it little by little thing just never worked for me. My stress levels decreased and my marks increased when I decided that each essay would be written in one sit-down sprint session.
 

walfin

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Hi brain, just a thought - you might NEVER know what you want to do with your life (as others have shown), so I'd suggest you don't bother "thinking long term" or thinking what you want to do "for the rest of your life", since you probably wouldn't like to be doing the same thing for the rest of your life anyway.

Anyway I'll just suggest a few things offhand. Opening a private school, full-time trading on your local bourse, planting vegetables, buying a small farm - any of these sound even the least bit possible to you (none of them require you to be employed, which means you'll be able to continue to work on your novel)? Alternatively you could just find some dead end sales/marketing/admin job with a reasonable monthly salary that doesn't require you to do anything important (so you could work on your novel in your spare time).

Waterstiller said:
What do you do if you're an INTP and just want a relatively stable entry-level job with decent health insurance?

I can think of several options, but all of them would probably drive you nuts ;).

For the lulz, I'll suggest that you sell insurance.

Banana Mango said:
Oh gosh, INTP theory strikes again. It took me 3 years of uni to work out the exact same thing - that I was better off writing my essays in one go. The whole plan it, work on it little by little thing just never worked for me. My stress levels decreased and my marks increased when I decided that each essay would be written in one sit-down sprint session.
Oh man. Same here.
 

Toad

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how many words are in an average book? 1,000,000?
 

Inappropriate Behavior

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What do you do if you're an INTP and just want a relatively stable entry-level job with decent health insurance?

There's no such thing as decent health insurance. Unless of course you remain relatively healthy in which case the insurance company will keep taking a decent percentage of your income and you get about a quarter of it in benefit returns.
 

Waterstiller

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Really.. nobody has any ideas? This must be possible. :confused:
 

Miss Led

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What do you do if you're an INTP and just want a relatively stable entry-level job with decent health insurance?



What entry-level jobs would satisfy this? All I usually see are likely INTP careers.. but I need something right now that wouldn't drive me nuts.

I got a secretarial job in Intellectual Property law. You can make up to 80K a year with no degree in DC, NY, and other major cities. Starting salary is around 30 all around the country.

It is interesting enough to do the 9-5 thing....I guess...
 

Sugarpop

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Make a list of all things, big or small, that you would like to accomplish or experience, then make plans to realize each item on the list one at a time. Start small, but don't be daunted by the more demanding dreams.
 

Loki

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I have bad news for you.

I'm 59 and don't know what I want to be when I grow up.

At this point I think I'm entitled to suspect that I might never grow up.

Normal people would urge you to pick something and make a go of it. Being an INTP I'm going to point out what you will probably already know even if you haven't articulated it: No matter what you pick, there's a good chance you'll get tired of it.

My time span is about 3 years.

Fortunately journalism has allowed me to pursue new interests at about that time span.

Lately it's getting to be shorter. I learned to be an online editor two years ago, for three months, before I became executive editor. Now, apparently, I have to learn to be an accountant , as part of my editing job, if I want anyone here to get paid. You might suspect accounting and the INTP personality are not a very good match. You'd be right.

I wouldn't worry too much about your lack of focus. Comfort yourself with the realization that you can probably succeed at anything to which you turn your hand, and then look around for something fun.

I still hold out hope of being a pirate. I see it's back in vogue.

EditorOne is right on target. 3 years is very accurate. I'm 46 and I've reached the conclusion that I'll never plant my feet on a solid career path. I'm drawn to the challenge of a new job, but then I just get bored after a few years and decide to move on. I've always resisted the impulse to accept a *leadership* role and *move up* the corporate ladder. Such a move leads to increased social interaction with coworkers as well as additional stress dealing with the diverse personalities of the *team*.

" Move on not up" looks like I created a new INTP bumper sticker.;)
 

snowqueen

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There's no such thing as decent health insurance. Unless of course you remain relatively healthy in which case the insurance company will keep taking a decent percentage of your income and you get about a quarter of it in benefit returns.

Or move to the UK - gosh we moan on about the NHS and our taxes - most Brits don't realise how incredibly lucky we are - never having to worry about paying for healthcare. I've never had to think about it when applying for a job.

EditorOne is right on target. 3 years is very accurate. I'm 46 and I've reached the conclusion that I'll never plant my feet on a solid career path. I'm drawn to the challenge of a new job, but then I just get bored after a few years and decide to move on. I've always resisted the impulse to accept a *leadership* role and *move up* the corporate ladder. Such a move leads to increased social interaction with coworkers as well as additional stress dealing with the diverse personalities of the *team*.

" Move on not up" looks like I created a new INTP bumper sticker.;)

yep - the same from another over-50. Having said that, I do think academia is quite a good career for an INTP. I started out teaching but have gradually moved into research which means I get to do short term projects and to an extent I get to do things I'm interested in so I don't get too itchy feet. Through circumstances I have found myself in a situation where I can't move away, and it's the best job I can get so I haven't been able to move jobs for 10 years. It's forced me to stick at a job and actually that's been very helpful in seeing the benefits of doing that in terms of developing my skills and honing my abilities.

'Move on not up' kind of applies though because I've avoided management positions and have told my bosses that they never want to put me in one if they want their institution to survive lol. So I've found other ways to proceed - in academia you can because you can do different things, not just progressing in management.
 

Zorf

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A little late in joining this thread but here goes.

I'm 30, trained as an architect, but originally went to business school. I quickly decided that I was too lazy to read all day and double entry book keeping really wasn't my thing. I didn't finish first year.

So i fought hard to go into architecture school. By second year I wanted to murder my lecturers and hang myself. I persevered to graduation (for fear of never finishing uni if i persisted in changing courses), and now have worked for a few years.

For those that don't know, architecture is not financially rewarding. We study as hard as doctors, work as hard as doctors, and survive on or near minimum wage. The RSI and poverty isn't such a problem, the shear mind numbing work (lets face it, i'm a secretary that draws in place of typing letters), and knowing the ability to BS over real competence is the only indicator for success.

I know someone else has posted something similiar (also architect also hating it) that's how i found this forum. but i can't for the life of me remember where it is... i distinctly remember it got moved several times.

I've gone so far as to sit for a graduate med entry exam in the hopes of doing something completely different. I passed that but missed the enrolment date cos of work. That and the thought of going through uni for 5 years again, with no savings and no income, is very scary.

Guys, (and gals and the undecided), any thoughts?
 
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