• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

Ideas People Things.

Cheeseumpuffs

Proudly A Sheeple Since 2015
Local time
Today 12:17 AM
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
2,238
---
Location
Earth Dimension C-137
Ideas sometimes need to be put into practice with things. Those things sometimes need to be used by people. I think the "great" people are comfortable and adept at talking about any one of these.

That said, I could just be a small, average person.
 

Ellenora

Banned
Local time
Today 3:17 AM
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Messages
22
---
Location
NE
If there are those three one must be more important than the other. They are far from equal. Which goes where?
 

Black Rose

An unbreakable bond
Local time
Today 1:17 AM
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
11,431
---
Location
with mama
actually average people talk about events

creative people generate novelty

“Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see.”
Arthur Schopenhauer (IQ=185), German philosopher
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Today 5:47 PM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
@OP
Seems like an unjustified assumption in search of support for values already held.
 

Cheeseumpuffs

Proudly A Sheeple Since 2015
Local time
Today 12:17 AM
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
2,238
---
Location
Earth Dimension C-137
If there are those three one must be more important than the other.

Why? What makes you say that there has to be some hierarchy of these three?

They are far from equal. Which goes where?

What does equal mean in this context? Is one better than the other? Better how?
 

Ex-User (9062)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 8:17 AM
Joined
Nov 16, 2013
Messages
1,627
---
Not equal means not of the same quantity or quality.
@ OP: I agree with the quote, based on my life experience so far.
 

OmoInisa

Active Member
Local time
Today 8:17 AM
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
207
---
Location
London, UK
Not necessarily in that order.
Great people talk about ideas.
Average people talk about things.
Small people talk about other people.




It does have a comforting ring to it. But what Hado said is certainly true. This sort of thing inevitably comes from a degree of intuitive (particularly NT) chauvinism. SFs are of course the types that would most tend towards talking about other people, and NTs the types most likely to talk about ideas. STs are most likely to talk about things.​
 

Ex-User (9062)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 8:17 AM
Joined
Nov 16, 2013
Messages
1,627
---
@Hablo: I guess all the celebrity gossip media outlets have intellectuals as a target audience, according to this.
 

Ellenora

Banned
Local time
Today 3:17 AM
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Messages
22
---
Location
NE
@OP
Seems like an unjustified assumption in search of support for values already held.
It looks like that. It looks as if ideas are favored over things are favored over people. That is the quote but I don't believe it. What are some other ways of looking at it? What meaning would comparing these have?
 

Ellenora

Banned
Local time
Today 3:17 AM
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Messages
22
---
Location
NE
Why? What makes you say that there has to be some hierarchy of these three?

What does equal mean in this context? Is one better than the other? Better how?
There doesn't have to be any relative rankings. If we take the sexes or religion or skin colors we can see them as all equal. Nevertheless some will see them as unequal. What are possible views to make them unequal? Anything can be made to be unequal. What difference would it make if the sky is blue or red? They are equal unless we are looking for normality or a sunset.
 

Fukyo

blurb blurb
Local time
Today 9:17 AM
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
4,289
---
The quote, to me, seems to specifically put down gossipers. I could see it being said by a famous person, one that also thought highly of themselves in an intellectual sense.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Today 5:47 PM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
@Sal
I'm not suggesting the inverse of the quote is true, just that it's an attempt to turn a preference into something more meaningful and universal, without any real justification.

Whenever people start making categories and ordering them from most to least desirable, you can bet your breeches they'll try and put their preferences on top. This forum positively reeks of people trying to elevate their status in their own minds (no offense anyone, we've all done it).

My personal order of importance would go:

1) Ideas

2) People

3) Things

(I'm a gossip whore) :D
 

Ellenora

Banned
Local time
Today 3:17 AM
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Messages
22
---
Location
NE
The quote, to me, seems to specifically put down gossipers. I could see it being said by a famous person, one that also thought highly of themselves in an intellectual sense.
Oddly enough gossipers keep the wheels of social intercourse turning. What better way to exchange? We call it into question only if it turns against someone. Rating ideas above people does smack of intellectual elitism. The idea that some people are inferior to others is not an idea I would readily take to. Which can be worse, ideas or gossip?
 

Ex-User (9062)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 8:17 AM
Joined
Nov 16, 2013
Messages
1,627
---
Oddly enough gossipers keep the wheels of social intercourse Mmmmm. turning. What better way to exchange? We call it into question only if it turns against someone. Rating ideas above people does smack of intellectual elitism. The idea that some people are inferior to others is not an idea I would readily take to. Which can be worse, ideas or gossip?

People are not equal, they are different from tip to toe.
Inferiority is such an emotionally laden word,
but it is pretty evident that some people are better than other people at doing some things.
Does that make the people who are not good at it unworthy?
No.
 

Ex-User (9062)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 8:17 AM
Joined
Nov 16, 2013
Messages
1,627
---
@Hablo:

I was just being a bit of a dick, all in good spirit.

But i guess, it is possible to substantiate the claims of the quote by studying biographies of people who fall into these categories.

As with all subjective truths they may ring truer to some than others.

Who knows where it comes from,
maybe a private book of aphorisms.
People used to write them and give them to their children as orientation.

The aphorist does not argue or explain, he asserts; and implicit in his assertion is a conviction that he is wiser and more intelligent than his readers.
Aphorisms, except they should be ridiculous, cannot be made but of the pith and heart of sciences; for discourse of illustration is cut off; recitals of examples are cut off; discourse of connection and order is cut off; descriptions of practice are cut off. So there remaineth nothing to fill the aphorisms but some good quantity of observation; and therefore no man can suffice, nor in reason will attempt, to write aphorisms, but he that is sound and grounded.

Aphorisms, representing a knowledge broken, do invite men to inquire further; whereas methods, carrying the show of a total, do secure men, as if they were at furthest.
 

Cheeseumpuffs

Proudly A Sheeple Since 2015
Local time
Today 12:17 AM
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
2,238
---
Location
Earth Dimension C-137
Which can be worse, ideas or gossip?

Either one of these can be worse. Honestly, it feels like you're trying to make a point without actually saying it.

Personally, I find the quote itself hilariously hypocritical. Whoever said it presumably believes that they are one of these "great people," yet every piece of the quote is talking about people (great, average, small) which, by their very own logic, makes them a small person.
 

Ex-User (9062)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 8:17 AM
Joined
Nov 16, 2013
Messages
1,627
---
Either one of these can be worse. Honestly, it feels like you're trying to make a point without actually saying it.

Personally, I find the quote itself hilariously hypocritical. Whoever said it presumably believes that they are one of these "great people," yet every piece of the quote is talking about people (great, average, small) which, by their very own logic, makes them a small person.

At the same time it's also a concept to categorize people, so we have a bit of a mish-mash of top and bottom qualities here, which would make it average.
 

Pyropyro

Magos Biologis
Local time
Today 4:17 PM
Joined
Feb 3, 2012
Messages
4,044
---
Location
Philippines
What if I want to talk about an idea about a thing that people do?
 

Ellenora

Banned
Local time
Today 3:17 AM
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Messages
22
---
Location
NE
What if I want to talk about an idea about a thing that people do?
Like what? As long as it is about people in general doesn't it remain an idea? That is different from talking about specific people like you and me.
 

Ellenora

Banned
Local time
Today 3:17 AM
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Messages
22
---
Location
NE
People are not equal, they are different from tip to toe.
Speaking of ideas and people, here is a statement from a famous document:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
 

Ex-User (9062)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 8:17 AM
Joined
Nov 16, 2013
Messages
1,627
---
Speaking of ideas and people, here is a statement from a famous document:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

The main problem here is "truths to be self-evident",
which they are not.
I have an interesting paper here in front of me, i might post it after i have finished it, it seems to be quite critical of the fundamental fallacies of egalitarianism.
 

TBerg

fallen angel who hasn't earned his wings
Local time
Today 2:17 AM
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
2,453
---
Gossip compounds the problem of alienation in our society. It substantiates every worst fear of those who do not fit in in one way or another. I have been on the affected side of this issue too many times. Usually the one who gossips has no idea what they are talking about, to make things worse. It is neither rational nor kind to gossip.
 

Cheeseumpuffs

Proudly A Sheeple Since 2015
Local time
Today 12:17 AM
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
2,238
---
Location
Earth Dimension C-137
Gossip compounds the problem of alienation in our society. It substantiates every worst fear of those who do not fit in in one way or another. I have been on the affected side of this issue too many times. Usually the one who gossips has no idea what they are talking about, to make things worse. It is neither rational nor kind to gossip.

Gossip is bad, sure. But the quote doesn't say small people gossip, it says small people talk about people. If I say "John and Carol got married last week" am I gossiping?

I think it's a bit presumptuous to say that any instance of talking about people is automatically gossip and also bad.

I'm not really sure why the thread got so caught up in equating the two.
 

Ex-User (9062)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 8:17 AM
Joined
Nov 16, 2013
Messages
1,627
---
Oh, i'm sorry, i thought people talking about other people, people talking about the latest things they have consumed or some other form of spectacularism, like the usual talk about the weather was disgusting to the average INTP.
Maybe i'm wrong. :confused:
 

Cheeseumpuffs

Proudly A Sheeple Since 2015
Local time
Today 12:17 AM
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
2,238
---
Location
Earth Dimension C-137
Yeah sure, smalltalk fucking sucks. I'm not saying that everyone should talk exclusively about the weather (on a side note, have you ever actually heard someone say "how about that weather?" without making fun of the phrase. It's not so common). I even wrinkled my nose a little writing out the sentence "John and Carol got married last week" because it bores me (or it did, until I remembered that John and Carol were actually some old family friends. They're divorced now).

All that said, I think it's inaccurate to say that these kinds of conversation are inherently bad and the exclusive realm of "small people," despite my personal discomfort and lack of interest. These conversations (god, I hate myself a little for what I'm about to say) keep society operating smoothly, which has its value. If we didn't talk about stupid bullshit we'd tear each other apart like the fucking animals we are.

This sounds kind of like I'm defending mindless bullshit conversations, which I'm not. I just think to try and rank ideas, things, and people as objectively distinct in terms of quality is kind of silly.
 

Ellenora

Banned
Local time
Today 3:17 AM
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Messages
22
---
Location
NE
Sociology wants to look at these things scientifically without emotion. Since gossip and small talk exist readily they must perform some function. A person when alone may contemplate and speculate about another. They may think minor things. If this has any importance at all it makes sense for two or more or a crowd to do the same. As soon as someone else outside hears about this it is likely to affect them differently. The minor thing could become a major thing. Then the results can be good or bad and strong emotions will result.
 

Absurdity

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 12:17 AM
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
2,359
---
Talking about ideas is for aspies.

Talking about events and people, on the other hand, entails a number of social dynamics that go far beyond the content of the dialogue. Most small talk is not really about the weather but about two or more humans feeling the situation out by examining body language and the other person's grasp of social rituals.

From there, talk about gossip and events serve as the backdrop for a subtle system of bartering for trust and status. Knowledge of certain happenings regarding certain people can either link the speaker's status to someone of great achievement or contrast their accomplishments to the failures of the someone else. The recipient of such information, depending on the quality, can infer the strength of their relationship with their partner in the conversation and can reciprocate with another piece of gossip to validate. Of course with the added dimension of deception this entire process becomes much more complicated and is best examined from a game theoretic perspective. Relevant article here.

Talking about ideas, in contrast, is usually much more straightforward and revolves entirely around the content of the conversation, rather than the context.
 

OmoInisa

Active Member
Local time
Today 8:17 AM
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
207
---
Location
London, UK
Very good. I have little doubt that you're well aware you've just talked about the IDEA of talking about people. Those skilled at 'talking about people' do indeed do the things you've just described. However they do it out of instinctual habit. They're unlikely to be able to examine it as well you just have (assuming all is equal, as we always must).

So that is their gift, which simply differs from yours. It is no more or less valuable.
 

EyeSeeCold

lust for life
Local time
Today 12:17 AM
Joined
Aug 12, 2010
Messages
7,828
---
Location
California, USA
Insecure people try to justify themselves. :p
 

Ellenora

Banned
Local time
Today 3:17 AM
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Messages
22
---
Location
NE
Is it not the case each of "ideas people things" if not neutral can be either bad or good though each in a different way? If so, then how would one impact the other and in so doing resist separation?
 

The Gopher

President
Local time
Today 7:17 PM
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
4,674
---
Not necessarily in that order.
Great people talk about ideas.
Average people talk about things.
Small people talk about other people.


Author: Unknown
Although Eleanor Roosevelt (my namesake) may have said this, the originator appears to be unknown.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/e/eleanorroo385439.html

Thoughts?

Talking about people obviously requires the most skill. (Talent for the idiots version) Talking about ideas requires the most knowledge but least intelligence. (Well theoretically it requires no knowledge either as you could just ask questions all day but I'm pretending to be wise) Things probably ends up in the middle.

Now you may have noticed that doesn't relate to the small, great or average people in any way because that takes too much skill for me. :rolleyes:
 

TBerg

fallen angel who hasn't earned his wings
Local time
Today 2:17 AM
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
2,453
---
Insecure people try to justify themselves. :p

When you don't fit in, then you have to explain how you don't fit in. Otherwise others just keep trying to push your square peg into their round hole, and you have to try to get them to see how square you actually are.
 

OmoInisa

Active Member
Local time
Today 8:17 AM
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
207
---
Location
London, UK
When you don't fit in, then you have to explain how you don't fit in. Otherwise others just keep trying to push your square peg into their round hole, and you have to try to get them to see how square you actually are.
True. But the problem with using typology to 'explain how you don't fit in' is that too many maladjusted intuitives abuse it. They convince themselves that they should make no attempt to engage, however loosely and sporadically, with that round hole.
Being so square as they are, they say that the round hole is meaningless and irrelevant to them.
But this merely arrests their development and further alienates them from their fellow man.

In this manner, their discovery of typology (MBTI specifically, since Socionics and the Enneagram perhaps lend themselves to a healthier, more holistic and more fine-grained conception of human temperament) actually compounds the difficulties they faced in life which inspired their inner quest in the first place.

Simply put, it's wondrous to have the ability to dwell in the elevated world of the mind. However, the mind exists inside a body. It would be folly to forgo eating due to its tedious banality.

Similarly, the individual (or collective of like-minded individuals) exists within a body of cognitively diverse humanity. It would be foolish in the extreme to alienate oneself from that body, on account of its tedious banality.

Take it from this fairly maladjusted intuitive who has only recently understood the value of making a small effort.
 

IdeaPerson

Redshirt
Local time
Today 3:17 AM
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
5
---
Skipping things, when would some ideas be favored over some people and when would some people be favored over some ideas? This is an effort to tell them apart.
 
Top Bottom