I think I might join a church

[zago]

It is finally beginning to dawn on me that, now that I have left college, I no longer have a social base. I occasionally meet people through my job and well.. yeah, through my job. That's OK, but work friends seldom end up being the kind of people who will really be with you till the end and all. Join a church and you know you will be welcomed, and you know that it's quality people. People who go to churches are the most responsible, trustworthy people you can find, as a whole.

Lately I've been realizing that I need to get on with my life. Sure, I could just keep on going and just do whatever I feel like doing all the time, like I always have during my 25 years on this planet, but I guess I don't want to wind up old, lonely, bored, and meaningless. It's time for me to develop a strong social life.

So I ask myself: what is the best way to do this? Where do I go to find this social life I speak of? I hate bars and clubs, and they are full of depraved assholes--that's out. I could perhaps become part of a meetup.com group, like libertarians or the hiking group... but these groups are too parochial. Of course, why even entertain these notions when the answer is obvious? Join a church, and the structure is all there, already set up for you. It is for that very purpose.

Churches, by definition, are places for people to congregate who follow the word of a certain religion. They are social gathering places. I have failed to include that in "the equation" I used to determine whether or not churches made sense to go to. I'd say, "well, this is boring as shit, and I'm not even sure I believe in god, so I say church sucks and I shan't be going any longer." Never mind the fact that I had some of the best times of my life with the church youth group when I was in school--I didn't really believe in god, so I threw it all out the window.

It's so damn obvious, though. I'm actually cool with the tenets of Christianity. Whether or not I believe in anything supernatural, it lays out a fine framework for living a good life. Love your neighbor, be kind and generous, be trustworthy, value your life and others' lives... etc. Get a bunch of people together who believe in that kind of stuff and, well, things go just great. Things do go great for religious people. They are happier people, and they are more successful.

So, growing up, the elephant in the room for me always was the beliefs being a Christian entailed. Even very young, I never knew whether or not there was a god. For that reason, I had some trouble relating to the people at my church who seemed more convinced. As I age, I see 1 thing for sure. Whether I believe in god or not, it is a thought that has never left my mind for a single day. I could never be an atheist, it would take too much effort. How could anyone convince themselves there is no god? How arrogant can you be? "I am so smart, I know there isn't a higher being whose reasoning is far beyond my capacity to understand!"

Atheists simply have poor imaginations. Do they ever stop and realize just how much about the universe we don't understand? Newsflash: humans know NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. We today are just as laughable as humans were a thousand or more years ago in terms of our level of understanding of the universe. We say to ourselves "ha ha ha, those fools thought the universe revolved around the Earth!" In another dozen, hundred, or thousand years our current beliefs will seem just as stupid--guaranteed.

So let's step back for a sec: we know first of all that we are lacking severely in knowledge about the universe we live in, and we know that religion lays out a supremely wise framework for living a quality life in this universe. Also, from my own experience, I believe that spirituality is an innate part of human nature. Like I said, I would never be able to just ignore the concept of god, what happens after death, etc. I don't think many people can (they are called sociopaths). Even atheists seem to spend all their time thinking about how god, although it's because they "don't believe in god." So again:

1. We know virtually nothing (and what we do know is very open ended about the possibility of higher levels of reality).
2. Religion lays the groundwork for living a moral life
3. Spirituality is an unavoidable part of human nature

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM..........

You know, I'm not so sure I don't believe in god after all. Hey, even the disciples had their doubts. Jesus told Peter he could walk on water if he had absolute faith. Peter didn't have absolute faith so he sunk. The disciple Thomas didn't even believe Jesus had been resurrected at first.

So I figure I'll read the bible and see where that takes me. If nothing else, it will be a great opportunity to inform myself of the one book most important to the history of mankind. Maybe I'll join a church, maybe I won't. Right now I'm too proud. I've spent years ragging on going to church. I have a hard time admitting I was wrong, especially to people I said were stupid before. Then again, a lot of people never do seem to question their faith and come to a personal understanding of it - they have religion because that's what they were raised with. There's nothing wrong with that; it's a good thing to have been raised with, especially knowing that most people aren't smart enough to ever question their beliefs very hard. Better Jesus than Hitler, right? I've spent years in agonizing analysis, the kind that had me utterly lost and depressed, and this is where I've gotten so far.

 

[Jordan~]

Don't do it, you have so much to live for!

Just make your own religion or something, what do you need with a dumb book and a hierarchy? The whole, "This a priest, he's better than you; this is God, you are wretched before His sight" thing just makes me feel nauseous. Like being in the army but the higher-ups are self-righteous rather than just jackasses. If you have a mind capable of believing in the supernatural, why waste it believing exclusively in such a painfully boring god?

I've never been to a church, but the people I know who go to churches are generally either creepy and weird, old, or second/third generation Irish Catholics. But I live in Scotland and no one goes to church here, so maybe in America they're less alienating. Well, the Catholics are generally fine, they'll just die of guilt if they don't go.

Religious people are happier? Really? Maybe that's the perception where the actively religious are a majority, but the ones at my school just seemed frightened and drained of personality, barely noticeable but for the fact that they were so difficult to notice. Not "meek" or anything, either, just lacking in life. Again, maybe that's because they're not a majority here. It was definitely very weird to go to church regularly at my school (unless your family was Catholic, because then you just had to go rather than actually wanting to go), and the majority of the year were agnostic or atheist.

I'm not convinced that they are happier. They just seem Stepford-y, to me. Eerie. Plastic. Sinister. 'Happy', but always with the inverted commas. A little bit glowing-blue-eyes-in-the-night, join-us-join-us. I guess they're usually not Calvinists, though. Church of Scotland people would probably seem less weird since that's kind of in our culture.

 

[Puffy]

Well, at least your honest about it Zago. :P

I don't really understand the "read the Bible and see where it takes me" as you already seem to have confirmed what you want to see when you read it, and that kind of predicts where you're going to go with it anyway. I think the "spritiuality" reasoning is a bit of bs as well, no offence. It just sounds like an intellectual excuse, which seems pointless given that you have already established your social motivations. If you want to do it, do it, it's as simple as that really :P

I can only speak from experience and say I was in a similar position to you not too long ago; with that hindsight I don't think you will find what you are hoping for. At the same time I thought it was a great learning experience. Important cultural knowledge, and a key in to how a lot of people's minds work, good stuff.

I, personally, found I didn't relate much to other Christians. Any communication from me to them was always forced, and they compensated very little to reach out to my personal qualities. I, of course, compensated by increasingly conforming to the standards they represented, and had to create a sophisticated personal religious model to let certain strands of me survive. When I came to realise the "me" bits were antagonistic to the principles of Christianity I broke down and realised I'd basically have to kill everything about my own personal identity to really be true to the religion. I ended up leaving.

I think you have over-simplified what exactly being a Christian is. It's not just "moral" people, it is a life-style. A self-sacrificing one at that. It definitely has pros, but it also has cons, like anything though I guess you have to taste it a bit to see if you like it or not. I definitely would at least attend Church and see what you think, I guess this is just a warning that it's not all smiles and good times. It can become a little like a family photo in an episode of the twilight zone...

 

[Puffy]

<--- that avatar picture is what I mean, what the hell do you think she's smiling about??

 

[thoumyvision]

I'm really glad to hear someone thinking out their worldview. So often I find people (mostly Christians, since I am one and that's who I hang out with) who haven't thought out their worldview, they believe what they were taught by their parents, or what 'feels right'.

I have a couple of suggestions:

First, start with John. The Bible is a unique piece of literature in that it is comprised of many books by many different authors; one does not necessarily need to start in Genesis.

Second, if you have a scientific mind, like so many INTPs, do a little research into the reasons science and Christianity are not at odds. I recommend the BioLogos Forum (founded by Dr. Francis Collins, former director of the Human Genome Project) and the Veritas Forum as great places of rational Christian thought. The Veritas forum is especially good if you enjoy watching lectures, because they have a lot of them.

 

[ElvenVeil]

What puffy says is imo rather correct.. All that 'hey people who doesn't believe in God just lack imagination' just seems like an excuse that you make up in order to convince yourself that it is okay to join the church.. And I think you are fooling yourself if you convince yourself that being a christian is the only 'rational and logical way' to live. . . At very least you say so yourself that you are concidering the church because of lack of social networks. . So be honest about what you wish to join the church for and don't add a lot of argumentation that is both false(imo) and unecessary. that is what I would recomend at least.

I think it is a good idea that you wish to join the church.. given that you meet people that are on your own age. . We all need social networks, and that you are mature enough to realize that is just a good sign I think. Another place to create social networks would be through education, as in university. I don't know how you would feel about that though

 

[Puffy]

I'm really glad to hear someone thinking out their worldview. So often I find people (mostly Christians, since I am one and that's who I hang out with) who haven't thought out their worldview, they believe what they were taught by their parents, or what 'feels right'.

I have a couple of suggestions:

First, start with John. The Bible is a unique piece of literature in that it is comprised of many books by many different authors; one does not necessarily need to start in Genesis.

Second, if you have a scientific mind, like so many INTPs, do a little research into the reasons science and Christianity are not at odds. I recommend the BioLogos Forum (founded by Dr. Francis Collins, former director of the Human Genome Project) and the Veritas Forum as great places of rational Christian thought. The Veritas forum is especially good if you enjoy watching lectures, because they have a lot of them.

I don't mean to run counter to your advice Thoumy, I definitely agree if his intention is to understand Christianity it is not a good idea to do it Genesis --> But I wouldn't start with John, in my opinion it is the most difficult gospel to understand. I think Mark is quite comprehensive, it covers a lot of Christ's ministry but is also quite simple and to the point. Plus you can read it fairly quickly, it doesn't have many chapters.

 

[Tyr]

I would say to go for it. Read the Bible. Join a church. But be careful what type of church you join. Find one that teaches the Holy Spirit, teaches that miracles still happen and that life is not about earning your salvation but a relationship with God, from which naturally comes a moral lifestyle. I say all this "churchy stuff" because I've found that the people in these types of churches are the ones most likely to be real about life, and not just fakers and hypocrites. That's where you can (probably) find some really good friends. I've been raised in the church (American) and I've met almost all of my closest friends there. I've also seen a very large amount of people who don't really believe in God or try to care about other people, but just come for...well, I'm not sure. So expect the hypocrites and fakers, and just ignore/forgive them. In my opinion, the friendships you could gain are worth it. And if you decide to believe in God too, then awesome. You won't regret it.

 

[OverCaes]

If you're looking for a social life, I would pick up a hobby of some sort. When you join a church, the people will be very reluctant to just let you be yourself. They will always want you to convert.

If you want to join one anyway, I would look into LDS. They leave you alone when you tell them to, and they will always invite you out to social events and for free food. Just remember to stand your ground.

 

[Jordan~]

Whatever happened to good, honest, decent ways of meeting people like Fight Club?

 

[zago]

Whatever happened to good, honest, decent ways of meeting people like Fight Club?

Fight Club rapidly turned into a religious cult.

 

[OverCaes]

Fight Club rapidly turned into a religious cult.

A cult that produced results. It eliminated everyones debt in the long run.

Remember, credit didn't exist around the time of the first automobile. Look at how the country has changed since the invention of credit companies.

 

[zago]

A cult that produced results. It eliminated everyones debt in the long run.

Remember, credit didn't exist around the time of the first automobile. Look at how the country has changed since the invention of credit companies.

Shit's gotten awesome?

 

[OverCaes]

Haha, but for who?

 

[zago]

Haha, but for who?

Responsible people...

 

[jameslikespie]

What you said was blatantly fucking stupid. Your previous thread talked about how you were leaving this forum, and how we were wasting our lives, yet you're back here spouting your bullshit once again.

Number 1: Just because somebody isn't religious doesn't mean they have no morals. That just proves your stupidity. You don't need a fucking book to have morals. Plus, Christianity endorses homophobia, slavery, the sadistic concept of "hell" etc.

2. You have no evidence stating that religious people are more happy and get more success because of they're religion.

3. Atheists such as myself believe there is no god. We have never said there is no possibility of a god, we just see no evidence supporting the belief in a god, and rightfully so. So in that sense, we are not arrogant in believing there is no god, we just base our opinions on facts and science, not faith.

4. I'd rather trust science which has evidence to support it's claims, rather than a belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree (it's been said a lot, but fuck it). Plus, science has given us much more understanding of the world today and helped us survive a lot more than religion has.

To be honest, you seem like your just trolling, the stupidity in your last two threads have been incomprehensibly high. Think before you type

 

[Peeps999]

Don't join a church unless you want to hear lies. Some stuff MAY be true, but the majority was once most likely political bullshit. Just rely on your intelligence to attempt to understand something near impossible. If it involves god that's fine, if it doesn't that's also fine. Just don't put your faith into an old book. Obviously you could put your faith in if you don't aimlessly accept every detail as a fact, or you could use it to help support your own theories.

 

[zago]

My oh my, despite the invidious nature of your reply, I suppose I'll respond civilly anyway.

What you said was blatantly fucking stupid. Your previous thread talked about how you were leaving this forum, and how we were wasting our lives, yet you're back here spouting your bullshit once again.

I never said I was leaving, I even went back and looked to make sure. I am actually, somehow, still acting consistently with what I have said. I said, to spend a lot of time on here is a huge waste of time. My making a thread per month or so does not qualify as 'spending a lot of time here.'

Number 1: Just because somebody isn't religious doesn't mean they have no morals. That just proves your stupidity. You don't need a fucking book to have morals. Plus, Christianity endorses homophobia, slavery, the sadistic concept of "hell" etc.

Didn't say that. What I said was that Christians tend to have good morals. I didn't say non-Christians have no morals. Maybe they do maybe they don't, but you can be more certain of finding people with good morals if you look among Christians, because that's what their beliefs are founded upon.

Furthermore, Christianity does not endorse homophobia nor slavery. That's probably just your fanatical mother or something. Jesus loved everyone, even sinners, which of course is... everyone. His message was forgiveness.

As for hell, I don't know. Maybe it is real maybe it isn't. That you think it is sadistic is irrelevant. Hell is hell whether or not you agree with it.

2. You have no evidence stating that religious people are more happy and get more success because of they're religion.

No, just my own observations.

3. Atheists such as myself believe there is no god. We have never said there is no possibility of a god, we just see no evidence supporting the belief in a god, and rightfully so. So in that sense, we are not arrogant in believing there is no god, we just base our opinions on facts and science, not faith.

I mean, what will it be? Do you believe there is no god, or do you just not know? I've already said, "I don't know." I've mentioned some evidence that I think points to there being a god, though.

4. I'd rather trust science which has evidence to support it's claims, rather than a belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree (it's been said a lot, but fuck it).

Of course, this is a massive over-simplification and, while it sounds amusing, doesn't actually pass for an argument..

Plus, science has given us much more understanding of the world today and helped us survive a lot more than religion has.

Science has not told us anything about morality. In some ways it helps us survive, in some ways it doesn't. With science, we have been able to kill people faster than ever before. Science is neutral when it comes to right and wrong. So far, anyway.

To be honest, you seem like your just trolling, the stupidity in your last two threads have been incomprehensibly high. Think before you type

I could see how someone so limited such as yourself would think that any controversial post is "trolling." I happen to think that they are the only kind worth while. I mean, in case you haven't noticed.

 

[Black Rose]

Have fun making friends.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

Know your enemy.

 

[Black Rose]

Know your enemy.

love thine enemy.

 

[jameslikespie]

My oh my, despite the invidious nature of your reply, I suppose I'll respond civilly anyway.



I never said I was leaving, I even went back and looked to make sure. I am actually, somehow, still acting consistently with what I have said. I said, to spend a lot of time on here is a huge waste of time. My making a thread per month or so does not qualify as 'spending a lot of time here'.



Didn't say that. What I said was that Christians tend to have good morals. I didn't say non-Christians have no morals. Maybe they do maybe they don't, but you can be more certain of finding people with good morals if you look among Christians, because that's what their beliefs are founded upon.

Furthermore, Christianity does not endorse homophobia nor slavery. That's probably just your fanatical mother or something. Jesus loved everyone, even sinners, which of course is... everyone. His message was forgiveness.




As for hell, I don't know. Maybe it is real maybe it isn't. That you think it is sadistic is irrelevant. Hell is hell whether or not you agree with it.




No, just my own observations.

Well statistically, they're are more religious people than non-religious, so the people you meet are more likely to be religious, and therefore have a higher chance of being successful because there are more of them. But you can't say that they're religion makes them successful or makes them so much more happy; because there is no evidence.


I mean, what will it be? Do you believe there is no god, or do you just not know? I've already said, "I don't know." I've mentioned some evidence that I think points to there being a god, though.

I'm an atheist, I only said that there is a chance he exists, but there is no evidence of his existence. Maybe god exists, but I see no evidence for his existence; therefore i'm an atheist.

4. I'd rather trust science which has evidence to support it's claims, rather than a belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree (it's been said a lot, but fuck it).


Of course, this is a massive over-simplification and, while it sounds amusing, doesn't actually pass for an argument..


Okay, I agree it isn't the best argument, but that is essentially what the Bible is trying to get across, even if it is over-simplified.


Science has not told us anything about morality. In some ways it helps us survive, in some ways it doesn't. With science, we have been able to kill people faster than ever before. Science is neutral when it comes to right and wrong. So far, anyway.



I could see how someone so limited such as yourself would think that any controversial post is "trolling." I happen to think that they are the only kind worth while. I mean, in case you haven't noticed.

Okay then, you are not leaving. I admit that was a mistake. Though I do still believe it was a stupid thread.

Research shows that the reason humans struggle with emotion to find equitable solutions is pinpointed the region of the brain called the insular cortex, or insula, which is also the seat of emotional reactions.

The fact that the brain has such a robust response to unfairness shows that sensing unfairness is a basic evolved capacity.

The emotional response to unfairness pushes people from extreme inequity and drives them to be fair. This observation shows our basic impulse to be fair isn't a complicated thing that we learn.

It therefore fully illustrates that all humans have morals controlled by the brain and that Christians are entirely wrong to try and claim morals as their own.

But Christians found a way around it.

Government statistics show that christians are vastly over represented in prisons for sexual, violent and fraudulent crime.

The Catholic church is paying millions in compensation for the sex/pedophile crimes of their priests alone.

Christians are vastly over represented in the divorce courts.

Christians invented the concept of sin and then the idea that you could sin, ask forgiveness, get pardoned and start with a clean sheet.

"When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property." -- Exodus 21:20-21.

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." -- Leviticus 25:44-45

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. - Leviticus 18:22

Yes, it doesn't matter whether or not you agree with it, it could exist either way. Obviously. I'm just saying that it is sadistic. Even the most terrible criminals should not be punished with hell.


Well statistically, they're are more religious people than non-religious, so the people you meet are more likely to be religious, and therefore have a higher chance of being successful because there are more of them. But you can't say that they're religion makes them successful or makes them so much more happy; because there is no evidence.

It might not be the best argument, but I think it sums it up pretty well.




I'm an atheist, I only said that there is a chance he exists, but there is no evidence of his existence. Maybe god exists, but I see no evidence for his existence; therefore i'm an atheist.

When I said you were trolling, it was meant as a joke. Your posts don't make sense so it seems like a bad attempt at trolling. It was a joke. But when you're on the forums, you automatically seem to be aggressive, saying that atheists are "arrogant" and claiming things you have no evidence of.

(I think I kind of fucked the quotes up, I think I mixed up the order of zago's points and put them in a different order, I don't know, something went wrong anyway).

 

[Jennywocky]

For years (like, from birth until maybe the age of 38), my primary social interface was the church. Especially after I got married and had children, and was holding down a day job, my only interface with other people was via the church.

A good church is supposed to be community-oriented and you'll find others who want to be engaged in some way. You also can shop around and kind of know "what you're getting" by visiting certain types of churches.

I think the big issue is that that doctrinal beliefs can be a really big deal and put up walls if you differ too much from other and how willing they are to entertain beliefs they do not hold. Also, if you don't conform to particular beliefs, your access to leadership positions will be limited, although that might not interest you.

I have not been involved actively in a church for about four years now. My main problem is that I was slowly drifting from the beliefs of the congregations I had habitually been a part of, and finally I needed to just step away. I've tried going back for holidays to new churches and almost immediately feel uncomfortable due to the conformity aspects to the congregations I visited. And when I go to liberal or open congregations, I often have found I don't really need to attend church to find that level of relationship even if there is not much conformance pressure. It took me a few years to start building up new social support networks for myself, and I'm still in the process of doing so. (I just attended a science meeting at the local bookstore on Sunday, for example... I am always on the looking for talent/hobby interest groups where I might find people who think like me.)

Anyway, if you know what you're getting into and can deal fine with the religious aspects without feeling bad about differing in values from other group members, I think the church community (depending on where you go) can be steady and supportive. It's just that the religious differences often get in the way.

 

[Jennywocky]

Number 1: Just because somebody isn't religious doesn't mean they have no morals. That just proves your stupidity. You don't need a fucking book to have morals. Plus, Christianity endorses homophobia, slavery, the sadistic concept of "hell" etc.

Well, I agree with the reality that people not in a particular religion can still have morals. I actually think we find religion that conforms to morals that seem "right" to us inside, otherwise we wouldn't stay with that church. So one's personal morals defines what churches people belong to, rather than the other way around, although on a conscious level sometimes people accept church teachings they're not sure about.

However, your last sentence is damned sloppy. There are things within Christian scriptures that have been used to support such things, but (1) there's a wide variety of Christians out there and (2) other things within Christian Scriptures that would decry what you've stated here. And the entire centerpiece of Christianity (which would be Jesus' life, death, and resurrection) fits with patterns of psychological health. You're painting with a really broad (and thus inaccurate) brush.

2. You have no evidence stating that religious people are more happy and get more success because of they're religion.

Actually, there is a placebo effect (at the least) in effect. I know there have been studies that show a positive view of life and prayer contributes to people being in better health, just as elderly men tend to live longer if they are in marriages (due to the relationship support).

However, that's not really due directly to religion, it's due to how people view and perceive and engage life because of their faith. Statistically, just as many percentage of people die of cancer when religious than when not.

3. Atheists such as myself believe there is no god. We have never said there is no possibility of a god, we just see no evidence supporting the belief in a god, and rightfully so. So in that sense, we are not arrogant in believing there is no god, we just base our opinions on facts and science, not faith.

As long as you don't see your view as "better," then I guess you're not arrogant. Sometimes it is appropriate to view life through a faith worldview, depending on what your GOAL is... just like intellectual focus results in INTP partners being the most unhappy partners in marriage surveys, because INTPs typically don't grasp the need for relational engagement in order for most people to find happiness. If you're writing a logical argument, then intellect is wonderful; if you're trying to keep your marriage together or have some other goal that isn't necessarily intellectual, then you need to respect and utilize other tools.

4. I'd rather trust science which has evidence to support it's claims, rather than a belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree (it's been said a lot, but fuck it).

While I overall agree with this and even find it humorous, personally the fact you're using it as a point in an argument just leads me to discount engaging you further. It's mainly just rhetoric and shows an inability to examine a perspective or belief structure from alternate points of view.

Plus, science has given us much more understanding of the world today and helped us survive a lot more than religion has.

Yeah, blah blah blah. Back to Star Trek "brave new world" thinking again? Science tends to focus on "what," while spirituality focuses on "why." They're not the same thing, but they're both useful. And before you start saying religion results in lots of deaths all around the world, remember that the people use science to bomb the shit out of each other, shoot each other, poison each other, steal from each other, etc.

Science is just a tool that people of all types use, so its overall value and how it is leveraged relies on the morality of the people using it.

 

[jameslikespie]

By the way, I have nothing against religious people. I have a lot of religious friends and family and we get along very well. I just disagree with it's dogma.

 

[zago]

So a few lines in Exodus and Leviticus seem to condone slavery. Since they took place like, 3500 years ago, I actually have a feeling they were kind of progressive for the time. The bible's a pretty long book anyway. Somehow that doesn't bother me too much.

While we are on the topic of Star Trek, the show does address what overdependence on science leads to: the Borg.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

How sad it is that one must resort to the Church in order to find a social community! Why have the secularists not bothered to set such a scheme up for themselves? So long as the church serves a purpose, it won't go away no matter how much lampooning you do.

Unless you have a higher goal in mind, I wouldn't bother. If there are no alternatives available, create them yourself.

 

[zago]

How sad it is that one must resort to the Church in order to find a social community! Why have the secularists not bothered to set such a scheme up for themselves? So long as the church serves a purpose, it won't go away no matter how much lampooning you do.

They have: unitarian universalism.

Unless you have a higher goal in mind, I wouldn't bother. If there are no alternatives available, create them yourself.

I don't see why it is such a shame. What's so bad about people who believe in god? It's not like that's all there is to them. Even still, I don't mind talking about god with people, especially now that I'm a little older. The other day, one of my bosses came to me and told me her story, out of nowhere, about her faith. She unashamedly talked about god and the devil's impact on her life, and the nice part is, I understood what she was saying. I've thought about god and the devil a lot, and I could relate to the basic characteristics she attributed to them.

Create something myself, though? How arrogant could I be? This is not my universe; I don't make the rules. There is something that I see as pretty damn good that other people are a part of, so I think I'll join them and at least have a lil' company.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Join a church and you know you will be welcomed, and you know that it's quality people. People who go to churches are the most responsible, trustworthy people you can find, as a whole

ahahahahahahahahaha
*wipes tear from eye*
Have you ever even been to a church?

They most 'depraved' people I've ever known have all been religious. From pedophiles to whores (although the devout, frumpy, menopausal wives are far worse imo, damn vipers) all with a big heap of deception on the side.

 

[zago]

ahahahahahahahahaha
*wipes tear from eye*
Have you ever even been to a church?

Um, yes.. went my whole life until I got to college.

 

[jameslikespie]

Well, I agree with the reality that people not in a particular religion can still have morals. I actually think we find religion that conforms to morals that seem "right" to us inside, otherwise we wouldn't stay with that church. So one's personal morals defines what churches people belong to, rather than the other way around, although on a conscious level sometimes people accept church teachings they're not sure about.

However, your last sentence is damned sloppy. There are things within Christian scriptures that have been used to support such things, but (1) there's a wide variety of Christians out there and (2) other things within Christian Scriptures that would decry what you've stated here. And the entire centerpiece of Christianity (which would be Jesus' life, death, and resurrection) fits with patterns of psychological health. You're painting with a really broad (and thus inaccurate) brush.

Actually, there is a placebo effect (at the least) in effect. I know there have been studies that show a positive view of life and prayer contributes to people being in better health, just as elderly men tend to live longer if they are in marriages (due to the relationship support).

However, that's not really due directly to religion, it's due to how people view and perceive and engage life because of their faith. Statistically, just as many percentage of people die of cancer when religious than when not.

As long as you don't see your view as "better," then I guess you're not arrogant. Sometimes it is appropriate to view life through a faith worldview, depending on what your GOAL is... just like intellectual focus results in INTP partners being the most unhappy partners in marriage surveys, because INTPs typically don't grasp the need for relational engagement in order for most people to find happiness. If you're writing a logical argument, then intellect is wonderful; if you're trying to keep your marriage together or have some other goal that isn't necessarily intellectual, then you need to respect and utilize other tools.

While I overall agree with this and even find it humorous, personally the fact you're using it as a point in an argument just leads me to discount engaging you further. It's mainly just rhetoric and shows an inability to examine a perspective or belief structure from alternate points of view.

Yeah, blah blah blah. Back to Star Trek "brave new world" thinking again? Science tends to focus on "what," while spirituality focuses on "why." They're not the same thing, but they're both useful. And before you start saying religion results in lots of deaths all around the world, remember that the people use science to bomb the shit out of each other, shoot each other, poison each other, steal from each other, etc.

Science is just a tool that people of all types use, so its overall value and how it is leveraged relies on the morality of the people using it.

I agree, the bible does contradict itself a lot, since it was written by different people in different times. So I was wrong to generalize the bible in that sense, but why not not follow your own morals and what you think is best instead of looking for them in a contradictory book?

And about living longer and being happier with religion, as you said, it's not the religion, it's the mindset. And I believe that mindset can be achieved without religion. According to a study done by the Minnesota Stroke Institute followed 4,000 cat owners over 10 years, and owning a cat can greatly reduce dying from heart disease. Specifically, people who owned cats were 30 percent less likely to have a heart attack. They presume the results would be similar with dogs too.

I agree with your 3rd point about utilizing other tools.

The Jewish zombie thing in my post was mainly for some comedic effect...

We can't just halt science because people use it to bomb people, steal etc it needs to keep moving because it's what will keep the human race alive. You do realize that the human race will eventually die? Our best bet is to advance technology to travel to other planets. You have to think of the greater good. We just have different opinions. I just don't see religion as important, I find it to be hindering our development in general.

 

[crippli]

When I've been to a church I have always gotten this odd unsettling feeling that there is something horrible wrong going on. With the place, the people, the whole atmosphere. Kinda like an illusion. And if you teared away the pretty pink painting, you would see the truth, not something even more beautiful, but the rotten corpses moving around sucking blood of the virgins that thinks it's havens light that is shining down upon them.

I'm not scared or anything. But the churches creeps me out. But probably more the people, because abandoned churches I think are pretty.

I think it may be the power I feel, and how it's beeing wielded. Like what can make people so effortlessly into whatever campaign that is going on. Scary. I hope you know what you are doing zago. I'm not sure if it's a good idea to recklessly play with this fire.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Um, yes.. went my whole life until I got to college.

Heh me too.
Now did you use your eyes and actually pay attention?

When I've been to a church I have always gotten this odd unsettling feeling that there is something horrible wrong going on. With the place, the people, the whole atmosphere. Kinda like an illusion. And if you teared away the pretty pink painting, you would see the truth, not something even more beautiful, but the rotten corpses moving around sucking blood of the virgins that thinks it's havens light that is shining down upon them.

I'm not scared or anything. But the churches creeps me out. But probably more the people, because abandoned churches I think are pretty.

I think it may be the power I feel, and how it's beeing wielded. Like what can make people so effortlessly into whatever campaign that is going on. Scary. I hope you know what you are doing zago. I'm not sure if it's a good idea to recklessly play with this fire.

hmm exactly it.
Well put.

 

[pjoa09]

I was thinking about joining the military and going to Iraq to kick some ass because I need a social base.

BAHAHAHHAH

You get it.
Y'all get it.
It's all there for you. How about next time we can join a religious cult and drink arsenic juice just so we can have some friends.

But honestly I have been working next to a temple forever really.

It's a big piece of shit.

I gigantic turd next to my office.

The ones who go there have absolutely no concern for those who are around them and consistently park at my office when my gates are mistakenly left open.

I am starting to think that the temple themselves tell them to park there.

They also play unnecessarily loud music to celebrate a wedding and completely disturb my peaceful Sundays at the office.

Can't believe in god when those who are the closest are douchebags.

 

[ummidk]

I thought a defining characteristic of being an INTP was wanting to know the truth, not believing in what you want to believe because it will get you friends. Idk personally I could never subject myself to lying to myself for that reason, at least not knowingly

 

[xbox]

What you said was blatantly fucking stupid. Your previous thread talked about how you were leaving this forum, and how we were wasting our lives, yet you're back here spouting your bullshit once again.

Number 1: Just because somebody isn't religious doesn't mean they have no morals. That just proves your stupidity. You don't need a fucking book to have morals. Plus, Christianity endorses homophobia, slavery, the sadistic concept of "hell" etc.

2. You have no evidence stating that religious people are more happy and get more success because of they're religion.

3. Atheists such as myself believe there is no god. We have never said there is no possibility of a god, we just see no evidence supporting the belief in a god, and rightfully so. So in that sense, we are not arrogant in believing there is no god, we just base our opinions on facts and science, not faith.

4. I'd rather trust science which has evidence to support it's claims, rather than a belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree (it's been said a lot, but fuck it). Plus, science has given us much more understanding of the world today and helped us survive a lot more than religion has.

To be honest, you seem like your just trolling, the stupidity in your last two threads have been incomprehensibly high. Think before you type

THANK YOU

I second that.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

2. You have no evidence stating that religious people are more happy and get more success because of they're religion.

FWIW, studies show people who attend church tend to be happier.

That doesn't say anything about being religious (which can be used well or poorly), but this thread is focusing on the church-going aspect.

 

[thoumyvision]

Number 1: Just because somebody isn't religious doesn't mean they have no morals. That just proves your stupidity. You don't need a fucking book to have morals. Plus, Christianity endorses homophobia, slavery, the sadistic concept of "hell" etc.

It is true that non-religious people can act morally and believe moral truths, but without a standard higher than either personal or societal they have no real basis for that belief. I'd argue that the morals you do have come from God whether you'll admit it or not. Your personal morality is made totally meaningless the first time you get mugged, and societal morality is made meaningless every time a North African girl has her labia and clitoris sliced off for no better reason than tradition. You will probably retort with all the horrible things Christians have done, to which I say they were either aware of the standard and fell short or were mislead about the standard. Neither thing does anything to invalidate the standard.

2. You have no evidence stating that religious people are more happy and get more success because of they're religion.

Evidence: Gallup Poll on Religion and Wellbeing in the US

3. Atheists such as myself believe there is no god. We have never said there is no possibility of a god, we just see no evidence supporting the belief in a god, and rightfully so. So in that sense, we are not arrogant in believing there is no god, we just base our opinions on facts and science, not faith.

There is no evidence contradicting the existence of God. Furthermore, the very fact that you believe that science can describe how the universe works is itself a kind of faith. It is evidence based faith, which is very different from blind faith, however it is still belief in something you ultimately have no proof of. Furthermore, the fact that you can look at cave drawings and deduce from them human intelligence, but can look at the human genome -- a code 3.5 billion codons long -- and instead deduce chance and physical necessity to me takes a hell of a lot more faith than that an intelligence was behind it.

You don't look at a Ford Model T and then turn to someone and say "The laws of internal combustion or Henry Ford, choose!" And yet so often athiests do this very thing to the universe. The laws of internal combustion and Henry Ford both stand in causal relationship to the Model T. In fact, they are both necessary and complimentary. Just because you figure out how a thing works doesn't mean there wasn't an agent that caused it.

4. I'd rather trust science which has evidence to support it's claims, rather than a belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree (it's been said a lot, but fuck it). Plus, science has given us much more understanding of the world today and helped us survive a lot more than religion has.

You're right that science has given us much more understanding of the material world, science serves a different purpose than religion. One of the purposes of religion is meaning, something science can never give. If my mother bakes a cake science can describe its physical properties down to the smallest muon, but it can't tell us why she baked it. We can try to deduce it, but for us to know for certain she would have to reveal it to us. Hmm... reveal is linguistically linked to revelation, isn't it? That's mighty interesting...

 

[walfin]

Salvation is free, but you never see the fine print that says you have to pay a subscription fee called "tithes".

If nobody else in your church cares, it's fine. But it always seems less fair if one attendee doesn't pay his membership dues so the rest probably won't like it if they find out you don't pay. I've never seen a church that absolutely doesn't care about tithes; they'd probably fold up, God's grace notwithstanding.

It is a rather good place to meet people who are reasonably decent, though, even if you don't believe. That is, if you sincerely don't care about being warned not to be one of the lukewarm-about-to-be spat-out-of-the-mouth ones.

 

[zago]

I hope you know what you are doing zago. I'm not sure if it's a good idea to recklessly play with this fire.

????????

Millions of people go to church every week. I think I'll be ok.

Heh me too.
Now did you use your eyes and actually pay attention?

Yes? No? Is it possible not to pay attention? I really don't expect everything to be perfect. I'll always disagree with a lot of shit that goes on in any organization I'm a part of. My church spent a wad on a big stained glass window. I could give a fuck about some stupid window, but hey, I don't run shit. I can overlook some imperfections like that if necessary. That's the way the world is. I can either isolate myself and become a recluse, or deal with a lot of shit I don't agree with as a cost for getting to live a social life. Hell, I'll influence what I can, but at a point I realize that there's no point.

There was a minister at my church at one point who was discovered to have had an extra-marital affair that broke up 2 prominent families in the congregation. Nobody said everything's gonna be perfect just cause you're in a church.

It's all there for you. How about next time we can join a religious cult and drink arsenic juice just so we can have some friends.

Yeah, there's a huge difference between joining a church and joining a suicide cult.

But honestly I have been working next to a temple forever really.

It's a big piece of shit.

I gigantic turd next to my office.

The ones who go there have absolutely no concern for those who are around them and consistently park at my office when my gates are mistakenly left open.

I am starting to think that the temple themselves tell them to park there.

They also play unnecessarily loud music to celebrate a wedding and completely disturb my peaceful Sundays at the office.

Can't believe in god when those who are the closest are douchebags.

Loud music? Parking in the wrong lot? How do you tolerate these atrocities?

Really, you should check your logic. Religion is separate from how its followers behave.

I thought a defining characteristic of being an INTP was wanting to know the truth, not believing in what you want to believe because it will get you friends. Idk personally I could never subject myself to lying to myself for that reason, at least not knowingly

You should re-read the OP again I guess. I never said I was going to willingly believe something that I... don't believe in? If that's possible?

It is true that non-religious people can act morally and believe moral truths, but without a standard higher than either personal or societal they have no real basis for that belief. I'd argue that the morals you do have come from God whether you'll admit it or not. Your personal morality is made totally meaningless the first time you get mugged, and societal morality is made meaningless every time a North African girl has her labia and clitoris sliced off for no better reason than tradition. You will probably retort with all the horrible things Christians have done, to which I say they were either aware of the standard and fell short or were mislead about the standard. Neither thing does anything to invalidate the standard.

Evidence: Gallup Poll on Religion and Wellbeing in the US

There is no evidence contradicting the existence of God. Furthermore, the very fact that you believe that science can describe how the universe works is itself a kind of faith. It is evidence based faith, which is very different from blind faith, however it is still belief in something you ultimately have no proof of. Furthermore, the fact that you can look at cave drawings and deduce from them human intelligence, but can look at the human genome -- a code 3.5 billion codons long -- and instead deduce chance and physical necessity to me takes a hell of a lot more faith than that an intelligence was behind it.

You don't look at a Ford Model T and then turn to someone and say "The laws of internal combustion or Henry Ford, choose!" And yet so often athiests do this very thing to the universe. The laws of internal combustion and Henry Ford both stand in causal relationship to the Model T. In fact, they are both necessary and complimentary. Just because you figure out how a thing works doesn't mean there wasn't an agent that caused it.

You're right that science has given us much more understanding of the material world, science serves a different purpose than religion. One of the purposes of religion is meaning, something science can never give. If my mother bakes a cake science can describe its physical properties down to the smallest muon, but it can't tell us why she baked it. We can try to deduce it, but for us to know for certain she would have to reveal it to us. Hmm... reveal is linguistically linked to revelation, isn't it? That's mighty interesting...

This was a good post.

Salvation is free, but you never see the fine print that says you have to pay a subscription fee called "tithes".

If nobody else in your church cares, it's fine. But it always seems less fair if one attendee doesn't pay his membership dues so the rest probably won't like it if they find out you don't pay. I've never seen a church that absolutely doesn't care about tithes; they'd probably fold up, God's grace notwithstanding.

It is a rather good place to meet people who are reasonably decent, though, even if you don't believe. That is, if you sincerely don't care about being warned not to be one of the lukewarm-about-to-be spat-out-of-the-mouth ones.

I don't think very many people tithe, honestly. People give, but not the full 10% usually. I don't have too much of a problem with giving to a church if I'm going to help myself to their services and facilities.

Funny you should mention that church from revelations, though. I thought about that earlier this week. My church was like that to some extent. I always felt that the congregation was pretty unenthusiastic and robotic, especially with singing hymns. I think there is truth to that verse. In a sense, god spit me out, and I think my whole family has really become completely lukewarm to it all. Mechanical, insincere faith is unsustainable, will fall apart and have to be rebuilt from scratch.

 

[Jordan~]

ahahahahahahahahaha
*wipes tear from eye*
Have you ever even been to a church?

They most 'depraved' people I've ever known have all been religious. From pedophiles to whores (although the devout, frumpy, menopausal wives are far worse imo, damn vipers) all with a big heap of deception on the side.

This is always what it seemed to me. Earnest, cloyingly earnest, but vicious, ruthless porcelain statuettes of people who wear the National Trust like a cloak, with painted on smiles and a nice word to say about everyone to their face. The kind of people who'll talk you into killing yourself for their own good, smiling all the while, and be able to hold a remorseless bakesale the next day. Sinister. A thousand sycophants gathered around a Lady Marchmain, destroying people with her dogmatic 'kindness' like some avatar of mercy gone horribly wrong.

If "religion is separate to how its followers behave", where religion (good) is separate from how its followers behave (bad), and you want to join a church to meet its followers (who behave badly), maybe you should revise your strategy for meeting people.

If you can fall short of the standard, what use is it? I could set a standard where no one is allowed to eat or breathe, but no one is allowed to die either. Naecunt'll ever meet it, however. It's a pointless standard. People are only as good as they are, not as good as they claim to want to be.

 

[Hadoblado]

I'm with Zago on this one. If you can bring yourself to believe or accept religious dogma (and he has demonstrated that he can), why not take advantage of the preconstructed social settings?

I am an atheist, but damn meaninglessness is boring as hell (which doesn't exist). Controversy aside, if I thought for one second that it was at all likely God exists, I'd convert on the spot.

 

[Jordan~]

If I thought it was at all likely that God existed, I'd find a way to kill him, the evil, murdering bastard, and worship a better god.

 

[pjoa09]

Yeah, there's a huge difference between joining a church and joining a suicide cult.



Loud music? Parking in the wrong lot? How do you tolerate these atrocities?

Really, you should check your logic. Religion is separate from how its followers behave.

My parents are part of that temple and I have to tolerate these crude followers in the name of not making my parents 'loose face'.

Yes, I need to have my logic checked it as it goes a little awry when religion comes in play.

In the name of god you are told not to kill people.
In the name of god you are told to sacrifice someone.
In the name of god you feel irrationally protected.

Religion is still being held against me by my parents but they are a bit gentle on it.

It does matter how the followers are because you will be with those followers if you go to the church/temple/mosque.

You are sacrificing your time for it and probably will be asked for more sacrifices. These buildings hold groups of people who strongly believe in god. Walking in there with a rational mind on guard is like walking into brothel with STDs on your mind.

The cult simile is because that's what I see at the temples all the time. Someone preaches and they listen hoping for miracles.

 

[The Gopher]

What can men do against such reckless hate? It's like walking into the INTJ forum... Whatever happened to open minds? This is why I try not to get into these types of debates. Logic goes out the window for both sides. I was just facepalming my way though this entire thread... (with some exceptions) I'm sorry and no I am not adding anything to either side of the argument except letting you know I want you to think. It's like saying all cars break down in the first two weeks because every car you have come across has. Or every Atheist/Christian/Alien you have come across is Immoral/ilogical/stupid/whatever. That's INTJ logic... I should know.

 

[Jordan~]

I hope you realise I'm 90% joking. I can't speak for anyone else, though.

 

[The Gopher]

I hope you realise I'm 90% joking. I can't speak for anyone else, though.

lol I would hope your joking, if I didn't think that I would have really gone to town. But it really applies to every thread like this.

 

[Bird]

I am fairly certain that zealots are going to become mighty
offended when they discover your motive for joining their
church was for social purposes. I think this may even be
seen as a great sin. The devil congregates in large crowds,
you know.

 

[The Gopher]

I am fairly certain that zealots are going to become mighty
offended when they discover your motive for joining their
church was for social purposes. I think this may even be
seen as a great sin. The devil congregates in large crowds,
you know.

Depends could be, others might just choose to leave it alone and hope he get's converted.

 

[jameslikespie]

It is true that non-religious people can act morally and believe moral truths, but without a standard higher than either personal or societal they have no real basis for that belief. I'd argue that the morals you do have come from God whether you'll admit it or not. Your personal morality is made totally meaningless the first time you get mugged, and societal morality is made meaningless every time a North African girl has her labia and clitoris sliced off for no better reason than tradition. You will probably retort with all the horrible things Christians have done, to which I say they were either aware of the standard and fell short or were mislead about the standard. Neither thing does anything to invalidate the standard.

Evidence: Gallup Poll on Religion and Wellbeing in the US

There is no evidence contradicting the existence of God. Furthermore, the very fact that you believe that science can describe how the universe works is itself a kind of faith. It is evidence based faith, which is very different from blind faith, however it is still belief in something you ultimately have no proof of. Furthermore, the fact that you can look at cave drawings and deduce from them human intelligence, but can look at the human genome -- a code 3.5 billion codons long -- and instead deduce chance and physical necessity to me takes a hell of a lot more faith than that an intelligence was behind it.

You don't look at a Ford Model T and then turn to someone and say "The laws of internal combustion or Henry Ford, choose!" And yet so often athiests do this very thing to the universe. The laws of internal combustion and Henry Ford both stand in causal relationship to the Model T. In fact, they are both necessary and complimentary. Just because you figure out how a thing works doesn't mean there wasn't an agent that caused it.

You're right that science has given us much more understanding of the material world, science serves a different purpose than religion. One of the purposes of religion is meaning, something science can never give. If my mother bakes a cake science can describe its physical properties down to the smallest muon, but it can't tell us why she baked it. We can try to deduce it, but for us to know for certain she would have to reveal it to us. Hmm... reveal is linguistically linked to revelation, isn't it? That's mighty interesting...

Leviticus 21:9
A priest's daughter who loses her honour by committing fornication and thereby dishonours her father also, shall be burned to death.

How moral... But anyway, I think that before you make such a claim you would need to understand where morals come from, which is our minds. For instance, through evolution, organisms develop a terrible fear of death, as the ones who didn't die off. This being said, we understand that we feel a negative emotion when faced with death. I know that I don't want to die or be faced with a similar scenario, therefore I know that it's not morally correct to kill someone else or threaten them with death.

Humans are social animals. To survive, we must work together and form societies, etc. Think about the hunter-gatherer societies. Everyone had a certain role and had to maintain a bond to survive. Those who didn't maintain that bond would leave their society and would likely be eaten by a predator or couldn't produce enough of the required items to survive and died off. Through this, humans have developed EMPATHY, which is the ability to understand someone else's emotions and know how to cope with them.

With my empathy, I'm able to see that someone else has generally the same fears as I do, and that includes death. Because of this, I will not kill them, nor will I steal from them etc. People who don't have empathy and go around murdering people are sociopaths.

You provided evidence, but i'm willing to bet that it is obviously a state of mind which could be achieved by other means without religion.

You said there is no evidence contradictory of God, well guess what, there is no evidence contradictory of Santa, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy, or the flying spaghetti monster.

You're right, there might be an agent AKA god, and i'll believe in that agent if we find proof of it.

But why believe in it when you have no proof? That's what i'd like you to answer...

And there doesn't always have to be meaning behind something, it could have just happened. Humans just want to believe they have some sort of special purpose because they have delusions of grandeur. We as humans are VERY insignificant in the universe. I believe science will tell us one day how we came about one day.