How are You today?

[eudemonia]

I'm reading a book I borrowed called Apologetics. The reasoning behind it was to get a more balanced view to religion (specifically Christianity), but instead, I dislike it even more now. :1 If it weren't a library book, I'd throw it against some wall as hard as I can or burn it (It was printed in 1964, though, so maybe people of that era weren't good at writing better stuff) (If you still can't tell, I hate the book)

Noooo! Don't do it Aphasia! 99.9 per cent of christian books are crap. They are not written for intps. Most are written for and by infps or i/estjs. Ill recomend some books when I get home - I'm at work atm and writing this on my blackberry. Btw lee strobel the case for faith is a good place to start.as you can imagine I speak thro very bitter experience

 

[fullerene]

see C.S. Lewis for clear arguments... INTJ with a photographic memory who turned from atheism, to agnosticism, to deist, to theist, to Christian. I hate to recommend such a well known author, mostly because like eudomenia said, 99.9% of books are crap, but I really like his stuff and I don't think it would piss you off too much. I'd like to offer something else... but everything else religious I've read assumes a large amount of background knowledge in the religion to get anything out of.

I'm in very high spirits today, though, mostly largely due to reading some of his stuff between classes.

 

[Jesin]

Sturgeon's Law.

 

[Thread Killer]

I'm a Christian (a crappy one, though) and I wouldn't even read Christian books.

 

[eudemonia]

Yay! I'm a crappy Christian too! Nice to meet another one.

 

[Thread Killer]

Yay! I'm a crappy Christian too! Nice to meet another one.

Seriously, huh. I haven't really read the Bible in a while and it's really starting to show. I feel so...sinful and no it doesn't feel good.

Today wasn't bad but I'm trying hard not to cry, atm. Life can be like that...words of wisdom, eh?

 

[ChaosTheory]

I'm agnostic and crazy-bible-thumping-religion-converting-freaks annoy me.

 

[fullerene]

lol I got cornered by one of those guys the other day on the street corner. He kept trying to convert me even after I told him I was already a Christian .

If I hadn't promised some friends I'd hurry back to play some cards with em I woulda sat there and torn his words to pieces...

 

[ChaosTheory]

This asian guy walked up to me at school while I was doing homework last week and asked me if I wanted to be in this bible study thing and I said no. I don't have the patience or extra time to just stay up there for a bible study class.

He looked at me like Satan was coming out of my mouth and left. Awkward.

 

[Jesin]

lol I got cornered by one of those guys the other day on the street corner. He kept trying to convert me even after I told him I was already a Christian .

If I hadn't promised some friends I'd hurry back to play some cards with em I woulda sat there and torn his words to pieces...

Pfft! That would have been funny. "Hey, quit trying to convert me; I'm already a Christian. I don't agree with your position, though, and here's why..."

 

[Aphasia]

I am now convinced that the members of this forum will make the worst ever band of zealots in the history of the world.

Some friend's birthday is today, so the class celebrated it (illicitly) during a free period with chocolate cake. I wondered about the meaning of being friends, but I lost my train of thought when they passed me a slice :1 (I have only refused chocolate cake once in my life. I don't think I will do that a second time) (Can you tell that I'm posting this for no real reason?)

 

[zxc]

I don't even eat cake. I don't like cake. I don't even eat my own birthday cake.

Seriously, next year, I'm forcing my parents to get me an ICECREAM cake. No more damn normal cakes!

 

[Jesin]

I am now convinced that the members of this forum will make the worst ever band of zealots in the history of the world.

You know what we should do? Unitarian Universalist evangelism.

 

[Kuu]

Stupid exponential procrastination! That long weekend was no good at all. And not having 2 classes this thursday won't help, either...

I am seriously getting stressed about not being stressed about all my late homeworks...

 

[severus]

I think we should have school four days a week. It would save them so much money, and it would save me my sanity. That place is dreadfully repetitious, broken up only by retarded projects that I forget about until the day before.

 

[ChaosTheory]

I'm so terrible at procrastinating. I have a speech, which by the way I hate, that I should be researching for and practicing.

 

[Jordan~]

I do my homework the period before I have to hand it in.

 

[Kuu]

I do my homework the period before I have to hand it in.

Ahh, the good old days...

But that's impossible in my situation. I'll probably be away from the forum until late monday. That is if I can manage to pry myself off the computer

Seriously, this entire month has been perhaps the most unproductive evah. I feel bored about everything at uni, and just want to read and sleep all day. How long can it be sustained? Place your bets, fellas.

 

[Waterstiller]

I feel absolutely wonderful. My life these last few days has felt like one of those episodes of Lost that answers a ton of questions you were wondering about since.. well.. forever.

But the finale is coming up soon where life is going to drop some huge bombs and then I'm going to have to wait nearly a year for resolutions.

 

[severus]

It is Friday 12:21 and I feel alive for the first time all week. I never thought of myself as a night owl. But waking up at sunrise and then having to go to bed before 10 has made me reconsider. Come to think of it, I am generally kept awake all day due more to being freezing cold than actually being rested (despite my full eight hours of sleep). I crash for half an hour after school and then have my diet pepsi, then I am fully, truly awake. Five hours later, bedtime. Really, whoever came up with the idea of starting high school at 7 in the morning is either stupid or a sadist. It's dark outside when I wait for the bus. The only positive is that I have seen some truly beautiful sunrises. But as the days grow shorter, even this simple pleasure will disapear. Never thought I'd be grateful to sleep in till seven. Ha

 

[Chimera]

In regards to how I'm feeling right now...without going into much detail, I feel like diamond-studded doggy doodoo. c:

Ehhh....an old friendship is squeezing the life out of me. A close bond between a friend and I is beginning to sever. That's what it feels like to me. And I don't want to go through it again...because last time was so incredibly painful I wanted to curl up and die.
Not being melodramatic here.
So I'm dreading that...and I'm not looking forward to going to school (more than usual) because I'm craving solitude right now. I do NOT want to be around other people. At all. And it might start showing soon...

But. I've got my happy face on. Can't afford to worry my family or other friends. d:


.

 

[Aphasia]

Semi-revival of thread. I feel quite annoyed today. Lots of little things were snowballing into a big headache which wouldn't have been so bad if they didn't involve other people. And later today, I'll have to go out even though I really don't want too... this sound more like something for shout club, if I were in the mood for being shouty.

 

[kaririloto]

Annoyed at the revoltingly low intelligence of my classmates, impassive towards everything, slightly hungry.

 

[Jennywocky]

I'm in relatively okay spirits.

I know what I have to accomplish at work.

I'm tired but not sick.

I'm cold. (Spring, please! Yes, I am a winter wimp.)

I'm going into debt on my credit cards, but then again, gas is down 33% in the last two weeks here.

I'm meeting an old high school friend for dinner tonight I just re-met last week, I have not seen her for 15-20 years, so this is all so cool. (And she's an ESFJ to boot, my antithesis, but we get along SO well now... it's a riot. )

I feel like my relationship with my kids is in flux; they continue to change as they hit their teenage years, I wonder whether we will stay close but am not sure how to manage that, and all i can do is hold on and ride things out and be stable for them. I did get to take my daughter to school today for one of those annual parent breakfast things, and she showed me around her classroom; she is much more engaging than she was even a month ago, yet more elusive as well. Sigh.

I guess I'm mentally unfocused, spirits are okay, I just need to focus and work, and another day will be successfully completed.

 

[Decaf]

I'm meeting an old high school friend for dinner tonight I just re-met last week, I have not seen her for 15-20 years, so this is all so cool. (And she's an ESFJ to boot, my antithesis, but we get along SO well now... it's a riot. )

Just as a side note, based on Jungian functions, an INTPs antithesis is actually an ISFP. Eventually I'll get around to writing up that FAQ I've been talking about and map out the unconscious functions, but its true.

 

[Jennywocky]

Just as a side note, based on Jungian functions, an INTPs antithesis is actually an ISFP. Eventually I'll get around to writing up that FAQ I've been talking about and map out the unconscious functions, but its true.

Go for it, I'd love to see it.

I mean, I guess we have:

INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
ISFP = Fi + Se + Ni + Te

Pretty intense difference.
Although my Ni is very strong.

I do get along with ISFPs in my life far better in terms of working style than I have with ESFJs.

Still, where Fi values cross Ti values, I've had some pretty entrenched fights with them as well so you could be right. Usually what happens is that they don't like conflict at all nor are they willing to change their values, and since their values are driving their points they do not present a logical rationale that can convince me of my own errors... so we just don't talk about the issue(s) and try to keep a peaceful coexistence. Where the issue has HAD to be dealt with, though, there's been a big rift from their end where it feels personal; I maintain an impersonal disagreement with their ideas but don't discredit them, but their disagreements usually lead them to judge my character unfairly.

And now as an adult, I have found that ESFJs and I can have friction in our interactions, you have to expect them to butt up against you if they don't understand something or just have a different opinion -- but they seem to adjust better to a changing world than ISFx types do. (ESFJ = Fe + Si + Ne + Ti = all the functions inherent in INTP, just prioritized differently and taking different roles in development.)

 

[Waterstiller]

My sister is ISFP and whenever there's a disagreement (which is constantly) she won't listen to a word I say. It doesn't help that she gets agitated and yells so easily either.

My strategy of late has been to keep calm, validate her feelings, express how I feel, perform an action that shows I care about her, and then walk away. Then when she's alone she'll feel me a bit and make changes or say sorry. The hardest part for me is quelling the urge to become frustrated and spout off rational thought since it never gets through (directly) anyways. Another thing I've learned is to give her lots of eye contact when there are other iNtuitives around or else she'll feel left out.

Truly, she's one of the most difficult people for me to be around and talk with. But when she feels what I'm feeling, my feelings are as real to her as her own. And that's priceless. She (along with the ESFP's in my life) has forced me to develop my feeling functions.


So yeah. How am I today? I'm happy! All this personality type studying has really opened up the communication in my family. We were very dysfunctional only a month ago and now we're a damn good family. Even my extended family is becoming more functional. My entire environment has changed, and many things that have been bothering me my entire life are no longer there. I feel joyous. I'm living. I'm appreciating the air around me. I'm free.

 

[Aphasia]

Today is an even more depressing day than yesterday. *sighs* My exams are coming up, so there won't be salvation anytime soon. At least I've made a token attempt at studying.

 

[Jennywocky]

My sister is ISFP and whenever there's a disagreement (which is constantly) she won't listen to a word I say. It doesn't help that she gets agitated and yells so easily either.

My strategy of late has been to keep calm, validate her feelings, express how I feel, perform an action that shows I care about her, and then walk away. Then when she's alone she'll feel me a bit and make changes or say sorry.

Oh geez.
Exactly.
That's exactly what I have had to learn to do.

It is very very very VERY hard.

That's one reason I know I'm not F, despite some overlap. Yes, I care about people and their feelings, but it's the inability to coordinate the ideas and voice an honest rational assessment that kills me; I still think that the feelings and values need to submit to the thoughts, and not the other way around. It was insanely difficult to first accept that many Feelings-based people just need the affirmation first, and then I need to let the Thoughts part go until they're ready to deal.

They'll engage when they feel better about the interaction; but if they feel you're slighting or undermining their values, you might as well forget it.

The hardest part for me is quelling the urge to become frustrated and spout off rational thought since it never gets through (directly) anyways. Another thing I've learned is to give her lots of eye contact when there are other iNtuitives around or else she'll feel left out.

That is a great strategy. I do that in general, but one scenario is definitely when a sensor gets around a bunch of intuitives; the N's start ping-ponging all over the place and caught up in the excitement, and the S can feel very left out.

Truly, she's one of the most difficult people for me to be around and talk with. But when she feels what I'm feeling, my feelings are as real to her as her own. And that's priceless. She (along with the ESFP's in my life) has forced me to develop my feeling functions.

I had a large need to develop the Fe style behavior, but my Fi inclinations were crushed/abandoned at an early age. It took me decades to reclaim Fi for myself, and I still feel guilty / aren't sure how to prioritize personal values yet.

So yeah. How am I today? I'm happy! All this personality type studying has really opened up the communication in my family. We were very dysfunctional only a month ago and now we're a damn good family. Even my extended family is becoming more functional. My entire environment has changed, and many things that have been bothering me my entire life are no longer there. I feel joyous. I'm living. I'm appreciating the air around me. I'm free.

yay! *dance*

 

[Cabbo Pearimo]

You can't polish a turd.

 

[Decaf]

So you have conscious functions and unconscious functions. Put them together and you have all eight. Normally we talk about the conscious ones because they are the simplest to compare to life experience and your thought life.

The ranking we use on the conscious functions can be described by the ratio of how much is under our conscious control versus how much is in the domain of our unconscious. We fear our extraverted feeling because it is like an iceberg. Able to cause great damage because we don't know its extent, only a piece. We feel very comfortable with our introverted thinking because the whole process is transparent to us.

I am not sure if any such hierarchy exists in the unconscious except that the highest functions are the most likely of the four to be developed in a person's lifetime. They are the currents of the ocean, operating and doing work, but doing it invisibly.

If I were to make a graphic for ISFPs, the order of functions would be the exact opposite, which is the problem. All of the areas in which we act consciously are unconscious for them and vice versa. Its hard to resolve conflict when it isn't apparent to either of you why you're angry at the other person, and why learning to take some cooling off time is so important. You have to let people's unconscious inform their consciousness as to why things aren't untenable as they belief. Sadly communication is very difficult, or near impossible, between reciprocal types.

 

[Jennywocky]

...If I were to make a graphic for ISFPs, the order of functions would be the exact opposite, which is the problem. All of the areas in which we act consciously are unconscious for them and vice versa. Its hard to resolve conflict when it isn't apparent to either of you why you're angry at the other person, and why learning to take some cooling off time is so important. You have to let people's unconscious inform their consciousness as to why things aren't untenable as they belief. Sadly communication is very difficult, or near impossible, between reciprocal types.

Thank you for the info.

We started up an interesting discussion at MBTIc yesterday about this if you have an account and want to check it out. There was some considerable disagreement; some people thought the INTP/ISFP example was intuitively correct, others dissented strongly.

I'm not sure if the conceptual pattern here transposes itself adequately to other type "mismatches."

With ESFJ and INTP for example, the working styles tend to fan confrontation directly and the relationship can be far more volatile. With ISFP and INTP, the working style is much more palatable and both styles tend to flex a great deal to accommodate each other. So while theoretically function theory says the two are very opposed in how they perceive and evaluate information, it doesn't seem to actually play out that way consistently at all. And they do share some things -- for example, the fact that both use an internal judging process as primary and an externalized perceiving process as secondary. This creates at least a parallel path of information in both.

I have only found the dissent you are describing when there is some issue that is SO large that the ISFP cannot flex and the INTP is sure of her view (or that the ISFP's view is irrational) -- a general issue like abortion rights or gay marriage, or some personal circumstance such as an impending divorce or relationship betrayal that neither person can ignore. At that point, the functional differences take precedence and dominate the exchange.

 

[Decaf]

I have only found the dissent you are describing when there is some issue that is SO large that the ISFP cannot flex and the INTP is sure of her view (or that the ISFP's view is irrational) -- a general issue like abortion rights or gay marriage, or some personal circumstance such as an impending divorce or relationship betrayal that neither person can ignore. At that point, the functional differences take precedence and dominate the exchange.

I believe the description gains much more traction with extraverted or judging types, but I still think it is legitimate in this example. I'm not suggesting that ISFPs are the antithesis of INTPs, but rather that it is nearly impossible for us to find common ground for conflict resolution. Perhaps abortion or gay marriage might be the instigator of that conflict, but I believe any conflict suffers from this inherent mutual unintelligibility. They may be able to work or play together well, but its like holding someone else's baby. They're adorable, but that's because you know you can always give them back to their parents if they spit up or cry.

... no, I'm not suggesting that ISFPs are babies or that they're likely to spit up or cry

Y'know... eventually I'm gonna make my way over to that forum. Its just so big and busy and I feel overwhelmed.

 

[Jennywocky]

I believe the description gains much more traction with extraverted or judging types, but I still think it is legitimate in this example. I'm not suggesting that ISFPs are the antithesis of INTPs, but rather that it is nearly impossible for us to find common ground for conflict resolution.

I guess, though, that that is still what I'm saying? The problem is resolving the conflict -- unless the values of the ISFP reflect the thinking process of the INTP, there's no common ground.

Perhaps abortion or gay marriage might be the instigator of that conflict, but I believe any conflict suffers from this inherent mutual unintelligibility.

It can be, they were just examples of extreme conflicts that can't just be ignored by many people. If it's just what flavor of ice cream someone likes or where they're going to eat lunch, the IP's will not fight over such stupid things.

They may be able to work or play together well, but its like holding someone else's baby. They're adorable, but that's because you know you can always give them back to their parents if they spit up or cry.

Or drop kick them over the side of the bridge?

... no, I'm not suggesting that ISFPs are babies or that they're likely to spit up or cry

Nope. Not at all. never. Nada. Nilch.

*burp*

Y'know... eventually I'm gonna make my way over to that forum. Its just so big and busy and I feel overwhelmed.

gawd, now you know how *I* feel half the time there.

 

[Auburn]

(I know this is a bit off topic...sorry)

Just as a side note, based on Jungian functions, an INTPs antithesis is actually an ISFP. Eventually I'll get around to writing up that FAQ I've been talking about and map out the unconscious functions, but its true.

I'd really like to know more about this! Like, REALLY!!
I especially want to understand the order of the INFPs, and INFJ's conscious and unconscious functions. They are such a mystery to me...

Also, what about especially talented actors? Are they able to temporarily reorganize their inner functions to portray a completely different type?

Also, is it possible for one of those 8 functions to be more developed that a function which is technically supposed to be above it?- say Fe is actually more developed that Si in an INTP, is that possible?

Also, is it possible to temporarily act, say like a real INTJ - including their function's order, then default back to your own?

Also! Also! Also!!!

...ok...I'll stop...​

 

[Decaf]

Its real simple, but don't put a lot of weight on the order of the unconscious functions. Here's the order:

1. If IP or EJ, this is a judging function, IJ or EP, this is a perceiving function. Orientation based on first letter.
2. Opposite orientation of 1, opposite type of function
3. Polar opposite of 2, opposing function
4. Polar opposite of 1, opposing function
5. Same function as 1, opposite orientation
6. Same function as 2, opposite orientation
7. Same function as 3, opposite orientation
8. Same function as 4, opposite orientation

Like I said, real simple. This would suggest that our most unconscious function is introverted feeling, so let's go off topic and explore that for a second.

What does it mean to say that Fi is the function furthest from our consciousness? I don't really have an answer that I'm happy with for that, but I wonder if it might suggest the reason why we can become so irascible when someone attacks our base principles. I know that's one of the few things that can make me angry quickly (the other is being humiliated in competition, but that is more self-focused). I think it would be hard for me to describe exactly what my principles are, but I know that if someone violates them, I may write them off entirely. It can be a minefield to test the limits of my principles.

Does that sound similar to how anyone else feels? I'm not sure its exactly how I feel, but its 1am and I can't bother to proof read it

Oh, the actor question. No, I don't think they do. I think its more along the lines of how INTPs chameleon others unintentionally, except that they do it intentionally. The reason I don't think people can alter the order of their functions is precisely because what that order suggests. That most of what goes on in our brain is unconscious. You can't tell your unconscious self what to do. If you could, it you be called your conscious self.

On the order of development, I don't know. I think we'd have to do a study to learn anything about that, but I imagine that would be a terribly difficult experiment to set up. Still, it might be worth it Should we try here? We have a pretty good sample group after all.

 

[Auburn]

On the order of development, I don't know. I think we'd have to do a study to learn anything about that, but I imagine that would be a terribly difficult experiment to set up. Still, it might be worth it Should we try here? We have a pretty good sample group after all.

I like the idea! And, this is probably as good of a place to test numerous INTPs as you'll ever see.

...but...hmmm...
How can such an experiment be set up? Is there a tests that asks questions tailored to discriminate the eight inner functions, and their development? (Like the MBTI, which distinguishes between the 8 letters, except this one would distinguish the 8 conscious/unconscious functions - asking several questions tailored to each specific function - Se, Ne, Ti, Fe, Si, Te, Ni, Fi - and seeing how developed each are)

 

[Decaf]

I think we could probably write some questions that differentiate between extraverted and introverted forms, to determine someone's preference. Actually, if we could that would be a great addition to the MBTI (help all those INTPs thinking they're INTJs get it straight).

It may be a long test, but I think all we need to do is determine if they are extraverted or introverted for each function. Once we have that list we order them based on how they perceive the function's impact on their conscious thought (I really don't think we'll be able to order the unconscious functions unless someone has developed them to a conscious level, which is unlikely for most people).

 

[Auburn]

It may be a long test, but I think all we need to do is determine if they are extraverted or introverted for each function.

hmmm...
That makes sense.

Tell me what you think of this test setup:

Perhaps the test can be divided into these four main categories? - from which the questions would either be tailored to introversion or extroversion. This way we'll know their four conscious functions.

EDIT: maybe we should move this to a separate thread? yes?
​

 

[Decaf]

Agreed, I like the graphic though

 

[kaririloto]

My day is pretty okay.
I've been getting emotions back.

I can put charts up too!
[From the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster]

 

[severus]

I am very well, thank you.
I have just had a wonderful flash of J, during which I mapped out the courses I will be taking for the rest of my high school career.
Also, if I am accepted into marine biology (which is actually not during the school year), then I shall learn how to SCUBA dive and snorkle. The class travels to Key Largo, Florida for six days in July for hands-on learning. Amazing! I really do hope I am accepted. I have no idea of the criteria, but my mother has me worried that I will be declined due to having diabetes. How unjust, I say. But we shall see. I feel very excited and peppy. I am still in my pajamas at four in the afternoon. I also slept nearly eleven hours last night, which no doubt contributed to my good mood.

 

[Ms Independent]

Serverus, Congrats. Can I ask you if you're type one or type two? (I have a friend who recently passed away from a type one attack while driving and another dear friend who suffers from type one; I love him dearly, but he would kill me if he knew how much I worried about him!)
Anyway, honestly, my point was that regardless of what one may think will hold them back, it is also that which can drive one to accomplish anything. I hope you do get in! Good luck!

 

[severus]

Thank you. I have type one. It's under control though, haven't had any seizures or comas or anything. And so sorry to hear about your friend,

 

[Aphasia]

My exams for this year are finally over. It's now the beginning of the nightmare. And also, I realized something unresolved with a friend due to a misunderstanding last friday. And I didn't use my chances to clear it up (thanks to a series of coincidences and my own fault). Life sucks.

 

[Fordy]

Well, it was my 17th birthday yesterday, so I'm currently in a fantastic mood.

I had low, low expectations this year. What with the credit crunch and my siblings draining the money out of my parents banks, I knew that I'd have very few presents to open. 6 in total, the most expensive being a DVD. That said, I'd received 10 driving lessons, and my parents had ensured me they'd fully help me be on my way to learning to drive, just that it would come over time.

That said though, on Saturday my grandma was rushed to hospital with severe stomach pains. They didnt know what it was, but stomach cancer was amongst the suspected culprits... My mum and auntie had been crying their eyes out worried about her, apparently she was in an awful, awful state...

So when I went to see her yesterday, I was delighted to see her walking around fit as a whistle! The symptoms seem to be looking a lot less like cancer now, even though she could well be having operations over christmas. It made my day.

 

[loveofreason]

Tired. For the third night in a row I can't even keep my eyes open to read the new posts. Let alone write stuff. I need to appoint another me so I can get some sleep.

 

[Melkor]

-jumps into the limelight-

I'll start on monday!!!

 

[loveofreason]

Excellent!

Now there's no pay and no perks to the job, you just get to chase small children and think evil thoughts... eh, you could be well suited to this.

*eyes glaze over*

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

On saturday I told a friend of 1.5 years that we should get together... ya know, romantically. She sidestepped. She's INFP, so I need she needs time to think, but it's silly how I haven't heard anything from her in the last few days. It's like she's scared. My phone call with her later today might be awkward. :/ But I hope it's not.

I have a meeting today for my senior research project. It might suck a little.

I've been up for 18 hours. Kinda typical for me to go that far, but unfortunately I'm going to have to be up for awhile.

I am totally mesmerized by this picture:

It's like it tells a story. DO NOT steal the medications of your fellow astronauts. They need those pills to live, and they will haunt you!