Have you had experience with psychedelics?

[DeadonDreaming]

The drugs just allow you to view things in different ways, apart from your normal thinking strategy. Its up to the person to allow those thoughts to affect them after their experience is over. I think a lot of people that take drugs arnt fully comfortable with themselves and would therefore be more susceptible to such "horrific" thoughts, which can sometimes mean a change in personality after the experience.

Exactly! Yes!

 

[Sensi Star]

Can anyone tell me how tripping acid would differ from shrooms? My knowledge of psychedelics is not as expanded as some of yours and I'm interested to know how different psychedelics have different effects.

LSD has some slight dopamine activity, so as mentioned there's going to be slightly less ego-loss compared to shrooms, and also a bit more stimulation.

Another thing is that the LSD experience is more easy to 'manipulate'; you can alter the 'themes' by mentally suggesting/intending themes you would prefer. Whereas with shrooms, you have much less control and are more of a 'passenger' than a 'driver'. For this reason more "bad trips" result from shrooms than LSD.

LSD tends to present themes that are "smaller" and more relate-able to the real world (for example Steve Jobs admittedly used his LSD experience to gain insight into improving computer technology). Shrooms tend to present themes that are "bigger" and more mystical, such as god, conscious entities, outer-space, evolution, etc.

 

[themirror]

Yep. The doors of perception were blown clear off. My friends and I bought 2C-I from Jesus on Halloween 2 years ago at a rave. This was also our first time rolling and so let's just say we had no idea what we were getting ourselves into, especially since we were sleep-deprived for going on 2 days on account of snorting adderall all weekend for the occasion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rally_to_Restore_Sanity_and/or_Fear)

I ended up sitting on my ass for hours straight tripping balls, staring at the wall in a federal army barracks examining everything that was wrong about the way I viewed my life. I was contemplating my social anxiety and fears when suddenly things clicked and I literally felt a sensation that I can only describe as a wave flushing out all the negativity in my brain. Ever since, I haven't been afraid to give things a fair shot and put myself out there in social situations. My inner chatter disappeared and I usually am able to live in the moment without being anxious about the future or longing for the past. Definitely a defining experience in my life, and I wouldn't trade anything for it.

Since, I've been pretty busy and pretty broke so I haven't been able to adequately plan many tripping experiences. I took 1 tab of acid with other friends in a forest outside the city, but didn't feel much

I took 2C-E with a buddy downtown and circles defined our trip. We explored the connections between pi, periodicity, recurrence, and fractals. Our narratives came full circle multiple times. It was pretty wild. Without a doubt, I characterize it as a very visual and extroverted experience, as I was having full OEVs from 90 mins onward. I agree that it is a difficult compound, as the integration is pure hell and the body load feels dirty, synthetic, and heavy.

I took 2C-E again by myself and saw darker sides of my inner psyche, which I didn't fear but rather was intrigued by. When I took a shower at the peak of my trip, I encountered "the other" amidst a fog of steam and silence. I felt connected to my body in a way I never felt before, as I have always regarded my flesh existence as something altogether alien. Overall, I think 2C-E is great for visuals and socializing while tripping, but doesn't provide much introspection or feel particularly good.

Hoping to trip 3 tabs acid in the next month or so if all goes well regarding my finances.

 

[snafupants]

Especially as regards the last post, I'm skeptical about the purity of today's acid.

Since Owsley is dead and the DEA busted Pickard, you can't be sure.

I guess the best thing to do is befriend a chemist or notice other people taking the same batch.

The whole thing seems pretty dubious.

 

[Bhagavat]

Just stick to shrooms. In high enough quantities, shrooms trump acid. DMT is amazing too, and I've been wanting to try Ayahuasca (active ingredient: DMT).

 

[snafupants]

Just stick to shrooms. In high enough quantities, shrooms trump acid. DMT is amazing too, and I've been wanting to try Ayahuasca (active ingredient: DMT).

Except shrooms are phenomenologically different from acid. Shrooms also come in different species; chemical compositions alter accordingly. Different half-life for shrooms and acid too. I also worry about the provenance and purity of today's acid, as it happens to be partly synthetic.

 

[Niclmaki]

I'd much rather let my mind work the way it was meant to. Or at least, let it try its best.

 

[themirror]

I'd much rather let my mind work the way it was meant to. Or at least, let it try its best.

I find the claim that the mind is supposed to work a certain way to be dubious. There are just too many possible outcomes of a mind's development for this to hold water. Every experience you have shapes your mind to perceive and judge things differently, even slightly so. If you live your life a certain way and then say that this is how it was supposed to be, I would doubt your belief in "free" will.

It's all just chemicals moving around and synaptic pathways firing, strengthening and weakening. You can either change that behavior indirectly through what you do or directly through which substances you imbibe.

 

[snafupants]

You can either change that behavior indirectly through what you do or directly through which substances you imbibe.

More of a melange approach sounds right for me.

 

[Niclmaki]

A Chess game has many possible outcomes, does that mean that it too wasn't meant to work a certain way. Sure you can make up your own rules and throw the pieces around like a game of dodge ball or something. But I would see that as missing the point.

And for the record, I do not believe in "free will" (using the definition of ultimate responsability).

 

[snafupants]

A Chess game has many possible outcomes, does that mean that it too wasn't meant to work a certain way. Sure you can make up your own rules and throw the pieces around like a game of dodge ball or something. But I would see that as missing the point.

Life is more freeform than chess.

The rules governing chess and the boundaries of mind aren't commensurate.

Rules in chess are static and the mind is dynamic, for one thing.

 

[Niclmaki]

Life is more freeform than chess.

The rules governing chess and the boundaries of mind aren't commensurate.

Rules in chess are static and the mind is dynamic, for one thing.

I was moreso making an anlogy about what you can do with it. :P

 

[snafupants]

I was moreso making an anlogy about what you can do with it. :P

A Chess game has many possible outcomes, does that mean that it too wasn't meant to work a certain way.

The mechanics of the mind are more flexible and complex than each chess piece's possible moves.

 

[Niclmaki]

The mechanics of the mind are more flexible and complex than each chess piece's possible moves.

Yes it is, and I would consider throwing pieces around one of the things someone could do with with it. Which would be my opinion of what taking a psychedelic would be doing to your mind.

 

[snafupants]

Yes it is, and I would consider throwing pieces around one of the things someone could do with with it. Which would be my opinion of what taking a psychedelic would be doing to your mind.

Aha, you walked right into that. You see, the second you start hurling pieces, that's when chess ends.

The brain, however, continues to operate as brain even under the influence of some psychedelic!

Once again - the rules governing chess and the boundaries of mind aren't commensurate.

 

[Niclmaki]

You can try to put the pieces back the way they were but the mind won't be the same :P

 

[themirror]

You can try to put the pieces back the way they were but the mind won't be the same :P

For that I am thankful. I've ended up with a much better arrangement this way.

 

[snafupants]

You can try to put the pieces back the way they were but the mind won't be the same :P

That's a bad thing? Empiricism, frenzied competition, and industrialization aren't always friendly forces yet they're the direct outcropping of reactionary minds like yours.

 

[Niclmaki]

It's not really bad or good. I just like my mind the way it is. I can't think of any reason why I would do something like that to my brain.

 

[snafupants]

It's not really bad or good. I just like my mind the way it is.

Yeah "put the pieces back the way they were" or back together carries a negative connotation.

It oftentimes is proceeded by something fracturing or breaking.

You may not have known that though.

I can't think of any reason why I would do something like that to my brain.

Please elaborate on what you mean by "something like that."

Do you have extensive or any experience with psychedelics?

 

[themirror]

It's not really bad or good. I just like my mind the way it is. I can't think of any reason why I would do something like that to my brain.

The best analogy of the top of my head:
That's like living in your house all the time and saying, "I really like it here. The walls are perpendicular and neat, the paint is a great hue, and I even have a nice view of the street and my backyard. I'd rather not go outside when everything I really need is here."

But you'd not know of the mountains, the valleys, the rainforests, the tundras, the deserts and beaches and plains. There's a whole mental landscape you haven't traversed, and just like you wouldn't know how awesome these natural beauties are unless you witnessed them firsthand, you can't really grok the benefits of a productive psychedelic experience without having been there. It's very liberating and you learn to cultivate a higher awareness and appreciation and a deeper happiness and love.

All together, suit yourself. Honestly, I don't mean to come off as pressuring you to partake; that's a decision that you should feel comfortable with bar none. I imagine my enthusiasm and positive experiences suggest that, but I'm just as interested in the philosophical arguments here.

 

[Niclmaki]

Ahh, by "Put the pieces back the way they were" I meant "Return to how it was"

and by "something like that" I mean alcohol and caffeine, any thing that has a strong affect on brain functions. I am also strongly against antidepressants.

And no, I have no experience.

 

[Niclmaki]

The best analogy of the top of my head:
That's like living in your house all the time and saying, "I really like it here. The walls are perpendicular and neat, the paint is a great hue, and I even have a nice view of the street and my backyard. I'd rather not go outside when everything I really need is here."

But you'd not know of the mountains, the valleys, the rainforests, the tundras, the deserts and beaches and plains. There's a whole mental landscape you haven't traversed, and just like you wouldn't know how awesome these natural beauties are unless you witnessed them firsthand, you can't really grok the benefits of a productive psychedelic experience without having been there. It's very liberating and you learn to cultivate a higher awareness and appreciation and a deeper happiness and love.

All together, suit yourself. Honestly, I don't mean to come off as pressuring you to partake; that's a decision that you should feel comfortable with bar none. I imagine my enthusiasm and positive experiences suggest that, but I'm just as interested in the philosophical arguments here.

I like to think that there's another way to get that experience that doesn't require drugs. I don't know if there is or not, but I'd rather not do it that way.
And you are a bit enthusiastic about sharing the experience with others haha.

 

[snafupants]

Ahh, by "Put the pieces back the way they were" I meant "Return to how it was"

and by "something like that" I mean alcohol and caffeine, any thing that has a strong affect on brain functions. I am also strongly against antidepressants.

And no, I have no experience.

Anything that has a strong effect on brain function? You must not like food and sex.

 

[snafupants]

I like to think that there's another way to get that experience that doesn't require drugs. I don't know if there is or not, but I'd rather not do it that way.

There isn't necessarily a natural counterpart to many of these experiences.

It probably wouldn't be much different provided there was one.

The crux of the action of each - natural and synthetic - would be modulation of brain chemistry.

Heroin, in some respects, is similar to orgasm. For some things, your body can't distinguish.

Who cares whether DMT is released naturally or synthetically? It's an irrelevant distinction.

 

[Niclmaki]

Ahahaha, well food is required for continued existance, I doubt shrooms are.

And sex is also required if we want our species to survive, I doubt LSD is. (I suppose we could all be grown in tubes, but that's just lame)

 

[snafupants]

And sex is also required if we want our species to survive, I doubt LSD is.

The second part's what the sixties were about.

Competition almost killed us back then. In so far as psychedelics alter deleterious thought patterns, I would argue LSD can save the world.

Sex actually isn't required for the perpetuation of the species - fertilization is.

Ahahaha, well food is required for continued existance, I doubt shrooms are.

The issue wasn't about sustenance, it was about enjoyment. Nice try.

Wait? You mean I might die without shrooms?!

 

[Niclmaki]

Who cares whether DMT is released naturally or synthetically? It's an irrelevant distinction.

Ahhhh, but I would bet that a natural release would have a lot lower chances of causing any lasting damage.

I think that's the main "beef" I have with it.
That is, the possability of pernament brain damage or alteration of some kind. That scares the crap out of me. I cannot imagine what it must be like to have any kind of lasting alteration on my psyche.

 

[snafupants]

Ahhhh, but I would bet that a natural release would have a lot lower chances of causing any lasting damage.

That's not supported by any data.

The toxicity of pure DMT is pretty low.

I cannot imagine what it must be like to have any kind of lasting alteration on my psyche.

I know you can't but you shouldn't baselessly fear change.

That is, the possability of pernament brain damage or alteration of some kind.

Show me some evidence.

You make the assumption that alteration is innately bad though.

 

[themirror]

I like to think that there's another way to get that experience that doesn't require drugs. I don't know if there is or not, but I'd rather not do it that way.
And you are a bit enthusiastic about sharing the experience with others haha.

Perhaps. I reckon that much of the Buddha's path through meditation and insight took him to a place sharing some of the qualities of a psychedelic state. However, this took many years to attain and is not necessarily any more persistent than a trip or a few (but who's counting?). In modern times, I've got a lot going on. The shortcut is fun, self-contained, and quite profound. There's nothing to suggest that the long and arduous path will even lead to the same destination or yield similar results. I can't wait for no damn enlightenment.

Ahahaha, well food is required for continued existance, I doubt shrooms are.

And sex is also required if we want our species to survive, I doubt LSD is. (I suppose we could all be grown in tubes, but that's just lame)

But these things are involved in our contentedness and pleasure. Humans have historically been seeking to alter their conscious state and such pursuits are also tied to positive emotions. Also, World of Warcraft is an example of a game which has a huge impact on people's state of mind but is not a necessity. WoW had kept a lot of players entrenched, engaged, and addicted for a while but did not provide any sort of existence support or genetic propagation.

 

[Niclmaki]

Unrelated, but kind of. I have a feeling you guys would say yes to this offer then.


"There are some secrets so dark no human mind should ever contain them. Interested?"
—Nefarox, Overlord of Grixis
(from the card Diabolic Revelation, magic the gathering)

 

[koan]

I spent a good two years on acid back in the mid 80s. The quality disintegrated so I stopped doing it. It was my natural state. I hate sleep.

That was probably the most carefree years of my life but I chalk it up to my age more so than my state of intoxication. Never took to weed or booze. I'd rather be in the fast lane. Had some hash laced with something that made me able to predict everything my high school teacher was about to say. Cost me a few grade points because... some teachers are bitter like that. Made me realise that I'm an addictive personality and I liked strong shit too much so I try to steer clear. An ex tried to hook me on cocaine and I was unwilling to endure the initial phase of making it wish you were dead the next day. I did make some friends the first time I tried coke though, by telling them the entire history of their natural lives through psychic divination. In return, I was taught to juggle. Sort of.

The first time I tried ecstasy, I got my nose pierced and found out how often a person bumps their nose against something and doesn't realise it. Among other things, I bumped it against writhing bodies on a dance floor and found out the next day that I was already addicted to it after one try, so I gave it up. All you have to do is imagine you love everything that your senses provide to you and you're set.

Mushrooms are nice because they don't give you muscle spasms. Unfortunately, I can't get over that the effect is caused by poisoning my body so I fully expect to die every time I eat them.

Aside from that, I've met people who did too much acid and I can visibly see spark flying when they try to make basic cognitive connections. Nevertheless, I wouldn't be who I am today if I hadn't "expanded" my mind and I recommend it to everyone.

Think there is something wrong with the world you are asked to accept? Try some of this and you might find the answer. All you need as armour is "Don't Panic"

 

[snafupants]

Unrelated, but kind of. I have a feeling you guys would say yes to this offer then.


"There are some secrets so dark no human mind should ever contain them. Interested?"
—Nefarox, Overlord of Grixis
(from the card Diabolic Revelation, magic the gathering)

Why are you couching the psychedelic experience in vaguely menacing terms?

You admit you have zero experience so what's with the judgements?

 

[snafupants]

The first time I tried ecstasy, I got my nose pierced and found out how often a person bumps their nose against something and doesn't realise it.

That may have been an unintentional pun with the cocaine talk, but I'm pretty sure I rarely "bump" my nose in a given year.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't be who I am today if I hadn't "expanded" my mind and I recommend it to everyone.

I really can't wholesale endorse psychedelics to everyone. Some people are innately unstable.

 

[Niclmaki]

You make the assumption that alteration is innately bad though.

If it is a "bad" alteration, then it's "bad."

If it's a good one, then it would feel like I was being a cheat to myself.

 

[Niclmaki]

Why are you couching the psychedelic experience in vaguely menacing terms?

You admit you have zero experience so what's with the judgements?

It just reminded me of the card, and it made me laugh. No judgement.

 

[snafupants]

If it's a good one, then it would feel like I was being a cheat to myself.

That's the pith of the whole New Age, abstinence argument.

McKenna made this joke that there's a curious Calvinistic bias against a free lunch.

You really seem to uniquely embody that caution.

 

[Niclmaki]

DO NOT TAKE THE FREE LUNCH! THERES SOMETHING FISHY ABOUT IT!

 

[snafupants]

DO NOT TAKE THE FREE LUNCH! THERES SOMETHING FISHY ABOUT IT!

This isn't the movie Airplane! - calm down.

 

[Niclmaki]

That may have been an unintentional pun with the cocaine talk, but I'm pretty sure I rarely "bump" my nose in a given year.

Haha, nice.

(Not supporting cocaine or anything, I just like puns.)

 

[snafupants]

Haha, nice.

(Not supporting cocaine or anything, I just like puns.)

Fuck that - I'm definitely not supporting coke. Although the diet version is delectable.

 

[Niclmaki]

You are right though, that thought is deeply in our culture, the "if I am to recieve something good I ought to suffer for it" Or something along those lines.

That thought isn't entirely true, but I still like to use it. There is some wisdom in it.

 

[Niclmaki]

Fuck that - I'm definitely not supporting coke. Although the diet version is delectable.

I prefer Diet Dr.Pepper.

 

[koan]

Cocaine is a ridiculous drug. I don't endorse it at all. The first time I tried it I said the next morning "I never, ever, do you understand never? want to feel this way again." I had to disconnect from all people who did the drug in order to avoid judgement for not being willing to take it again.

Acid on the other hand, sure some people won't like it. Those aren't the people I generally find to be compatible with me. Though I haven't done it in close to a decade.

I could tell stories, though. One involves a large art exhibit called "Spirit Catcher" which locals referred to as "The Heavy Metal Chicken" and I was sitting at the base when it caught something not so nice.

 

[snafupants]

@Niclmaki

You are right though, that thought is deeply in our culture, the "if I am to recieve something good I ought to suffer for it" Or something along those lines.

Yeah that's why lottery winners or NFL players oftentimes squander their winnings or exorbitant salaries.

They feel like they somehow aren't deserving, so they fritter away the money.

In some cases it makes sense. With psychedelics, there are certainly things a caveman ego or primordial intelligence can't handle.

But yeah, without the suffering of grad school perhaps the doctorate might not taste as sweet.

That thought isn't entirely true, but I still like to use it. There is some wisdom in it.

There's some stupidity, restriction, guilt, and assumption in it too.

 

[themirror]

If it is a "bad" alteration, then it's "bad."

If it's a good one, then it would feel like I was being a cheat to myself.

Reminds me of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root

Basically, a programmer found a way to use this "magic" hexadecimal constant to compute the inverse square root of a number in about 25% of the time required to do so the more traditional way. When programmers use it, does it feel like a cheat? I don't know, maybe. But in fact it's a neat solution which accomplishes the goal faster.

Why do you consider a good psychedelic experience a cheat? Cheating is only bad if you're cheating yourself; i.e. copying problem sets and thus not struggling through the material

But taking a trip isn't like that. It's more like having a tour guide show you the best spots on a nature trail rather than having you wander aimlessly and figuring out the pointless details yourself.

 

[snafupants]

I prefer Diet Dr.Pepper.

To each his own.

 

[Niclmaki]

Reminds me of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root

Basically, a programmer found a way to use this "magic" hexadecimal constant to compute the inverse square root of a number in about 25% of the time required to do so the more traditional way. When programmers use it, does it feel like a cheat? I don't know, maybe. But in fact it's a neat solution which accomplishes the goal faster.

Why do you consider a good psychedelic experience a cheat? Cheating is only bad if you're cheating yourself; i.e. copying problem sets and thus not struggling through the material

But taking a trip isn't like that. It's more like having a tour guide show you the best spots on a nature trail rather than having you wander aimlessly and figuring out the pointless details yourself.

Maybe the computer feels like it's cheating.

That is a good point, but I meant if I am trying to achieve an experience like it through enlightenment - I would feel like a cheat. If someone is just going for the experience that is up to them.

 

[snafupants]

Maybe the computer feels like it's cheating.

That is a good point, but I meant if I am trying to achieve an experience like it through enlightenment - I would feel like a cheat. If someone is just going for the experience that is up to them.

The telos of enlightenment is a tantalizing sham.

Promises of enlightenment keep cults going and sell crystals and keep folks docile, so they persist.

 

[Sensi Star]

I find it to be particularly revealing that the only people who use analogies such as psychedelics 'clouding' or 'reducing functioning' of the brain are people who haven't had the experience. Even if you've researched and read others' experiences, you don't understand because language is not enough to accurately convey it. Out of many many people, I don't know a single person who from trying them claims to have not gained valid insight about their own life or life in general, even when the experience was negative/scary.

I attribute the misconceptions to both lack of experience, and the fact that our idiotic drug scheduling system that places DMT, shrooms, LSD in the same category (I.) as Herion, Cocaine, etc.

Heroin and Cocaine reinforce the ego. Heroin puts people into a false state of comfort, causing them to ignore personal problems and become content even when they are making bad life decisions. Cocaine is similar, only with more stimulation. Therefore, these can be said to be 'blinders' of perception.

Now psychs do the opposite, they break-down the ego. The ego is responsible for making rationalizations and suppressing self-criticism. When the ego is temporarily 'subdued' from psychs, you begin to analyze yourself from an outsider's perspective. You identify realizations that have been suppressed in the sober state, such as "Oh this is what I'm doing wrong in my life" or "Oh this is why my relationship with ___ isn't harmonious". It's a removing of the 'blinders'. The blinders do serve a purpose: survival. You wouldn't be able to get through life easily if you are constantly criticizing yourself and not rationalizing your actions/behavior. However, OCCASIONALLY removing the blinders can actually be helpful in improving the quality of your life by 'weeding out' negative actions/behavior.

In conclusion psychedelics are a unique class of "drugs". Most drugs reinforce the ego in some way. Because psychs do the opposite of most mind-altering drugs, it would make more sense to call them "ANTI-drugs".