• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

Gender role reversals

onesteptwostep

Junior Hegelian
Local time
Tomorrow 8:25 AM
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
4,253
---
No I do mean "effeminate." It's most striking when I see American men and women interacting together. The woman stays herself i.e. her manner of speaking/personality doesn't seem to change much, whereas the man frequently mirrors the woman. Voice pitch seems to increase, so does tempo. Use of vocabulary such as "like" "totally" "ohmygod" "me too." Particularly prevalent among high school and college-aged men. It's almost as if they feel that women are in control of the current social hierarchy and so they try to imitate them to fit in and be accepted. It reeks of fear. I don't think men in the past would ever have done this. Frankly, I don't think women want them to act this way either.

I don't think the words 'like' 'totally' and 'ohmygod' are in the domain of a female... you've never been to california, have you(?). The guys there generally add 'dude' or 'man' after them. I don't really see that as a biggie. I think it partly has to do with how the intonation is played out, though. But I don't think it's a mirroring thing either, it's more of a 'lingo of the generation'. (maybe a Millennialist lingo? I'm one myself)

If anything, I think women are much more attracted to men who aren't afraid of being themselves, even if who they are is not highly esteemed by others.

Right- like always, it's confidence and a sense of direction that women are attracted to.
 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Today 4:25 PM
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,691
---
@architect spontaneously, my personal theory on Japan if what you're saying is true

Do a search, plenty of references.

[BIMG]http://blogs-images.forbes.com/joelkotkin/files/2014/12/57573546-e1418617892746-1940x1940.jpg[/BIMG]​

is that overpopulation is somehow making people desire to reproduce less

I think the reason is more complex and subtle than all the simple explanations being floated. On this one I doubt that seeing people around is causing young men to lose interest in starting families and having sex. Proof is that Japan has always been overpopulated, they're only using a small fraction of the available free land, I can personally attest to this.

Keep an eye out on the patterns; Japan leads the West in so many ways. I've been watching this for 20 years. And actually the US does have a declining birth rate already, but it's masked by immigration.
 

Ex-User (11125)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 11:25 PM
Joined
Feb 8, 2015
Messages
1,532
---
it's confidence and a sense of direction that women are attracted to.

Inquisitor was making a point that if a guy is effeminate then it follows that the guy lacks confidence, when the reverse could be true

to be comfortable with their self expression and not care that there are people who think unfavourably of what they do or(like the OP) think they are motivated by fear...that takes confidence
 

Inquisitor

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 6:25 PM
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
840
---
So your issue is that young guys are using what you've decided are female speaking patterns and female phrases ("omigod") and to you it "reeks" of fear and you think everything is going down the tubes because it confuses you? is there more to it, or is that what you can articulate at this time?

Are you in that age bracket yourself? So that that's the only kind of thing you've been exposed to, and you haven't been exposed to society before that point except through old movies and such?

It doesn't "confuse" me. I just don't approve of it. I'm not in that age bracket (in my 30s), but it's true I haven't directly witnessed what the 80s and before were like (too young to remember).

Western society in general has been relaxing greatly since the 60's, moving away from paternalism towards egalitarianism. It's not there yet (You're right about that, it's tilted in favor of women), but the rigid roles of how "men and women are supposed to behave" have been eroding. You seem to view this as a negative; considering what I know of paternalistic cultures, to me it's a positive in some ways, but we'll see if it lodges somewhere in the middle eventually versus favoring one or the other.

What do you think women were doing before all this? Basically confined to the "female bracket" where you're supposed to conform to a lot of male expectations for what a woman is, where you're essentially toothless and harmless and unchallenging, or if you crossed the boundaries you were viewed as a male and had your female-ness stripped away from you. (Hence, "tomboys" at best.)

As a side note, one of my big gripes with society today, after FINALLY seeing progress in terms of sexism and racism, is now all the responses of the former class that held all the privilege... they feel their privilege slipping away and now make themselves out to some kind of victim, when the system itself is just stabilizing in a more equal position. Do you realize how long a certain demographic held western society in thrall to itself? What they feel now is what all the minority classes felt ALL of the time in society. Welcome to not being the person in charge. Welcome to change. Change might create fear of the unknown, but it beats the certainty of being stuck in a particular caste/social group that you can't escape from.

[And did I really now just have to sound like an extreme liberal just to state a simple perspective that should be obvious from a big picture perspective? That annoys me. I'm not much for the SJWs.]

Getting some feminist vibes here...First off, I'm all for equality of opportunity. I don't want to go back to a society where women are not allowed to work or only work menial jobs. My mother was never born to be a housewife for example. She was a plastic surgeon in Europe, but when she immigrated to the US, the medical board demanded that she repeat her residency (6+ years) in order to practice. She decided to have kids instead. Unfortunately, she never got a chance to resume her former self-actualization through a career, and this really caused her a lot of suffering. I would have loved for her to have had her old job back. It was a loss for her and for society. She's extremely talented and creative when it comes to surgical techniques.

First underlined part: It is a net negative that women are behaving more like men and vice-versa. It's not attractive. Women have a role, and so do men. When those roles get reversed, it's harmful for both sexes. Men will never be attracted to "manly" women, and neither will women ever be attracted to "womanly" men. It's just biology. We can therefore say that "masculine" traits are those which elicit arousal in a woman, and "feminine" traits are those which do the same for a man.

The manosphere, for instance, is filled with men who have decided to leave western countries to pursue women in less westernized nations. Judge them however you will...they exist, and they're unhappy with how women are behaving nowadays. The PUA movement, for all its faults, has tapped into some essential truths about sexuality. It basically teaches men how not to appear like "pussies." No woman is physically attracted to that. Love can develop with a "pussy" man eventually, but at the get-go, it's not going to lead to the panties' dropping.

Second underlined part: In my view, men are the victims these days. If you're wearing feminist-colored glasses, it might be hard to see this, but if you take them off and actually try to put yourself in a man's shoes, you'll see I'm not unjustified in making this claim.

Women For Men
Our Approach to Men Reinvented

As for my motivation in writing this post, it's twofold. 1) If I'm being honest, I find it difficult to be attracted to American women. Not so with women from other countries like China and India. 2) I recently was actively involved with my uncle's divorce. His wife is a bipolar/manic-depressive and all-around somewhat evil woman. Her kids want nothing to do with her. She managed to squeeze my uncle dry despite never having contributed anything financially to the marriage and having repeatedly physically abused him and cheated on him with numerous men. He was never unfaithful and never laid a hand on her. State law being what it was, she still got half. The system is not fair and balanced.
 

Inquisitor

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 6:25 PM
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
840
---
Precisely because gender roles have not gone anywhere. The guy mirrors the girl because he's generally the pursuer. The pursuer is generally more interested in the pursued than the reverse. He stands a better chance of forming a connection if he mirrors her.

Ironically, that's not true.
 

onesteptwostep

Junior Hegelian
Local time
Tomorrow 8:25 AM
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
4,253
---
Inquisitor was making a point that if a guy is effeminate then it follows that the guy lacks confidence, when the reverse could be true

to be comfortable with their self expression and not care that there are people who think unfavourably of what they do or(like the OP) think they are motivated by fear...that takes confidence

Hmm that could be possible, we'd probably have to check up Inquis himself though before we make assumptions. I personally don't read and understand his post like you do, that being effeminate means you lack confidence. I think the language used by males today are just a result of a generational milieu [due to interconnectedness, aka chiefly interwebz] and not a result of a social majority/domination/power by females. I think it's just a change in communication style, not a lack of confidence or anything. But I mean, there probably are men who chase around women like that- they're probably just more like boys like Architect said. Girls do become more mature faster then men, biologically and psychologically, so they do have an edge in social life.. well in the beginning.
 

crippli

disturbed
Local time
Tomorrow 12:25 AM
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
1,779
---
my personal theory on Japan if what you're saying is true is that overpopulation is somehow making people desire to reproduce less, same thing happens with rats if you leave them in an overcrowded space I think, more homosexuality and asexuality, this is also a good thing as overpopulation is a genuine worry, you should be glad some are opting out of sex and family life, what does it matter as long as they're happy + productive members of society?
Maybe those who opt out are those who shouldn't. A female boss who out compete the male might make good contributions to the human race. Chances are she will be too preoccupied running the company to reproduce until it is too late.
1408624676156_wps_5_World_IQ_graph_jpg.jpg
"IQ 90-99 - Average
Able to learn a trade in a hands-on manner and perform tasks involving decisions. Craftsman, sales, police officer, clerk. Studies involving some theory are possible from this range upward.

80-89 - Below average
Above the threshold for normal independent functioning. Can perform explicit routinized hands-on tasks without supervision as long as there are no moments of choice and it is always clear what has to be done.

Chimpanzee have an IQ around 80 or 90
Gorilla's have an IQ between 70 and 95"
 

OmoInisa

Active Member
Local time
Today 11:25 PM
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
207
---
Location
London, UK
Ironically, that's not true.
I think I see why you believe it isn't true. But I see it as remaining true. I suspect we have different objectives in mind for our hero. You might well be correct if his purpose is to inspire primal lust for him in the girl. I would probably be correct if his goal is an eventual romantic bond of mutual knowledge and respect. A coming together of equals.
The deeper irony here is that the complex I believe you labour under is what lies at the root of our misunderstanding, as well as your emotionally-charged perspective on this issue.
 

Inquisitor

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 6:25 PM
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
840
---
Hmm that could be possible, we'd probably have to check up Inquis himself though before we make assumptions. I personally don't read and understand his post like you do, that being effeminate means you lack confidence. I think the language used by males today are just a result of a generational milieu [due to interconnectedness, aka chiefly interwebz] and not a result of a social majority/domination/power by females. I think it's just a change in communication style, not a lack of confidence or anything. But I mean, there probably are men who chase around women like that- they're probably just more like boys like Architect said. Girls do become more mature faster then men, biologically and psychologically, so they do have an edge in social life.. well in the beginning.

Confidence is part of it. Like Architect said, "pussy" is a good word to describe some of the behavior I've seen, even if these guys aren't actually pussies in everything else. The whole gender dynamic is so out of whack. Instead of being taught to act like a confident alpha with a big swinging d*ck, which is bar none the most effective way to engender raw physical attraction in a woman, men are taught to be "nice" guys and treat a woman with respect. That gets translated in a man's mind as be submissive, flatter the shit out of her, and don't you dare challenge her cause you ain't gettin none otherwise. The result is predictable.
 

Inquisitor

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 6:25 PM
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
840
---
I think I see why you believe it isn't true. But I see it as remaining true. I suspect we have different objectives in mind for our hero. You might well be correct if his purpose is to inspire primal lust for him in the girl. I would probably be correct if his goal is an eventual romantic bond of mutual knowledge and respect. A coming together of equals.
The deeper irony here is that the complex I believe you labour under is what lies at the root of our misunderstanding, as well as your emotionally-charged perspective on this issue.

I don't think you would be correct in this regard either. That approach works at creating friendship. From there, you might be able to develop that into a romantic relationship. Just based on personal experience, I wouldn't get my hopes up though. I've been down that road and it can take a really long time for a woman to start seeing you differently once she's known you as a friend.

The biology on this seems pretty clear: She either sees you as a potential mate and wants to engage in coitus, or she doesn't. There's no middle path. If she's hesitant about it, it means she's not that attracted.

I find the whole idea that "equality" will prevail and everything will finally be right in the world to be complete BS. Human sexuality just doesn't work that way. Animals don't operate that way either for that matter. Fifty Shades of Grey? That's what a lot of women apparently secretly(or not?) fantasize about. A strong, dominant, confident, financially successful, and forceful man. Insert other "alpha-male"-related adjectives in there as you please.
 

StevenM

beep
Local time
Today 6:25 PM
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
1,077
---
The manosphere, for instance, is filled with men who have decided to leave western countries to pursue women in less westernized nations. Judge them however you will...they exist, and they're unhappy with how women are behaving nowadays. The PUA movement, for all its faults, has tapped into some essential truths about sexuality. It basically teaches men how not to appear like "pussies." No woman is physically attracted to that. Love can develop with a "pussy" man eventually, but at the get-go, it's not going to lead to the panties' dropping.

Your whole opinion is very unsubstantiated, and subjective.

Take a good, methodical survey. These 'effimenite' men only rank a fraction of the demographics. Don't make a conspiracy out of it. They won't be taking over the world any time soon.

Trust me, there are tons of beautiful, attractive women out there, if only you were 'manly' enough to see them.
 

onesteptwostep

Junior Hegelian
Local time
Tomorrow 8:25 AM
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
4,253
---
Confidence is part of it. Like Architect said, "pussy" is a good word to describe some of the behavior I've seen, even if these guys aren't actually pussies in everything else. The whole gender dynamic is so out of whack. Instead of being taught to act like a confident alpha with a big swinging d*ck, which is bar none the most effective way to engender raw physical attraction in a woman, men are taught to be "nice" guys and treat a woman with respect. That gets translated in a man's mind as be submissive, flatter the shit out of her, and don't you dare challenge her cause you ain't gettin none otherwise. The result is predictable.

I think there needs to be a clarification in what is deemed masculine though. Treating women with respect is a part of being alpha. Being respectful is a sign of maturity, civility, and most of all confidence. I do get what you mean by being "nice" though, the flattery and submissiveness play into the borderline femme fatale; that stuff's weak. But I think there's another scenario, where the communication style of the overbearing female makes it seem like the male is being overpowered. But I think it could be the case that the male's communication style in this regard is compromise, not submission. But I do think there are cases when the female is to zealous in the power struggle and go overboard, only to find herself ruining the relationship- and of those around her. But that's only when one views relationships as power struggles, I'd outline.
 

Haim

Worlds creator
Local time
Tomorrow 2:25 AM
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
817
---
Location
Israel
" right up until women are more or less equally represented in politics and top jobs"
That's like saying "right up until INTP are more or less equally represented in factory and NBA".
Are INTP fitted to the job?
How many INTP want it and love it compared to other types?
From these INTP that are fitted,want and desire the job how many don't go because people
say "you **+_&%^& :facepalm: that job for !INTP","you will do no good" and how many don't accepted/succeed because of non skill related reason?

Statistics,the art of making wrong conclusion from unrepresentative handpicked data.
Looking at a tiny small part of the picture with pink(?) or blue(?) glasses.
for example you can't say woman get paid less while ignoring the fact that most women give a lot more time to their children than men,pregnancy vacation is unavoidably even when men spend more time with the children.

I still do not know what is the truth but you cant treat different people the same because they aren't the same and they shouldn't be.
If a woman more fitted to a job they should get it if they aren't it's better for all if they won't get it because the job will not get done as well and people(men and women) will conclude "ha she is not good,she got it only because she is woman"+"she isn't good because she is a woman"
That cause the problem we are trying to avoid!
Hance the actions that are caused from the " woman represented in politics and top jobs" statistics data have big part in the cause of this data.

I might have different view in the future,as I am still young but I would like to see more objective view than the interest driven,reality blindness view of today(men and woman)
 

Inquisitor

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 6:25 PM
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
840
---
Your whole opinion is very unsubstantiated, and subjective.

Take a good, methodical survey. These 'effimenite' men only rank a fraction of the demographics. Don't make a conspiracy out of it. They won't be taking over the world any time soon.

Trust me, there are tons of beautiful, attractive women out there, if only you were 'manly' enough to see them.

INTP. What do you expect? I'd like to see this survey of yours. And yes, there a lot of beautiful women out there...but attractive...idk about that.
 

redbaron

irony based lifeform
Local time
Tomorrow 10:25 AM
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
7,253
---
Location
69S 69E
Things both yourself and Architect are doing:

- conflating femininity/masculinity with things not necessarily definable as masculine/feminine
- focussing on a small demographic and exaggerating really hard
- confirmation bias level infinity

Being more open to expression doesn't equal being effeminate (men) or masculine (women).
 

crippli

disturbed
Local time
Tomorrow 12:25 AM
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
1,779
---
Man and woman are the easiest concepts to identify with. People have a need to identify. It's not going away any time soon. If a difference isn't there, it will be imagined. The base for that imagination, sex, will be there for a long time yet.

So it's clear. A male have only become feminine if some hormone levels have been increased from average. To find out if one is. Some tests at the doctor will give the answer. This can happen on purpose or unintentionally. Pollution, food, drink etc.

If one doesn't want to become feminine. It is easy enough to avoid. Be in activity. That produces more testosterone. Go into the forest and eat clean food. And yes. Being nice does not make one feminine. Nor does wearing high heels and short skirts or shaving either. Make up though, that may do it.

Do not sit in front of the computer all day long or read books non stop. And eat processed food, polluted water, and breath polluted air if you do not wish to be feminine. As that will do it.

Males have only one Y chromosome. Females have a double X. Females are more sturdy. Doesn't take much extra estrogen, from average level, in a male so sperm count is reduced/stopped. Interestingly testosterone and androgen is used in females to enhance their fertility.

Short version: Males are fragile. If one want to remain masculine, effort must be put into it. Masculinity is on a clock. When old there is little masculinity left. It biologically serves to fertilize an egg.
 

Lot

Don't forget to bring a towel
Local time
Today 3:25 PM
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Messages
1,252
---
Location
Phoenix, Arizona
In this thread, men are scared of knitting and women want to rule the world. All men will be in cages and used only for their spunk, and all women will use young men as stepping stools. The male slave trade would last 500 years before the oppressors were overrun by shrunken testicled squeeky men wanting to talk about feelings.

Why didn't we listen to Jesus when he told us to never let women vote. Now they know about their orgasms and we can't stop the hysteria!
 

Fukyo

blurb blurb
Local time
Tomorrow 12:25 AM
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
4,289
---
I find the idea of others putting people into molds that cater to their personal preferences highly reprehensible. Nothing wrong with seeking out whatever you find attractive; just don't try to push your ideal of attraction on others. In that sense I'm against forcing people to conform to gender roles. Incidentally, I'm also against pushing people to conform to the behaviors stereotypically associated with the other sex, unless that's something they're inclined toward themselves. In which case they'd just welcome the opportunity to behave in a way that feels more authentic to them.

Besides, not everyone can be a dick swinging alpha, nor should every man be taught to behave that way. Ironically, this would only further erode the traditional notions of gender and relationships.

Why didn't we listen to Jesus when he told us to never let women vote. Now they know about their orgasms and we can't stop the hysteria!

Didn't they use orgasms to cure feminine hysteria? :D
 

Lot

Don't forget to bring a towel
Local time
Today 3:25 PM
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Messages
1,252
---
Location
Phoenix, Arizona
Didn't they use orgasms to cure feminine hysteria? :D

The real hysteria is women running around getting laid and having a choice in who they sleep with. That's a travesty. How dare a woman learn about sex and then go out and have it with people they find attractive. We can't stop the beastly behavior now. Women are set for the course of world domination.

We need to bring back arranged marriage. That will bring back the good values of dick swinging men. Outlaw oral sex performed on women. And they should be under their fathers control until they can get married off, to profit the father. 8th grade education is all they need. We would save so much on taxes if women stopped using public schools.
 

crippli

disturbed
Local time
Tomorrow 12:25 AM
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
1,779
---
The real hysteria is women running around getting laid and having a choice in who they sleep with. That's a travesty. How dare a woman learn about sex and then go out and have it with people they find attractive. We can't stop the beastly behavior now. Women are set for the course of world domination.
So running around and getting laid with who one wish leads to world domination. Interesting.
 

The Gopher

President
Local time
Tomorrow 10:25 AM
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
4,674
---
True...but how come I don't see this happening the other way around? i.e. women mirroring men?

It's harder for females to mimic deep voices. :D (and something something higher voices better for social stuff) People mimic each other though. In the way they stand and everything not just voice and phrasing.

Ironically, that's not true.

Well no, the one doing more "mirroring" puts the other in their comfort zone hence they are more comfortable and open to friendship. (or whatever other relationship) It doesn't mean "get run over by" or "physically turn into a female" it just means mimic for a sense of familiarity.

*just for those traumatized by PUA techniques yes they do tell people about this kind of stuff. However it's in the same way that psychopaths are lovely wonderful helping people. Psychopaths mimic nice people because it benefits them PUA use normal social behavior in manipulative ways.

Now I understand what you are trying to say, "masculine guys get the girls" and while that may be true for some people that has nothing to do with mirroring.

As for the "totally cool omg" language that's more universal than female more associated with emotion than gender. Since guys aren't encouraged to show as much emotion when talking to other guys you might see it less. So in that sense you may be correct depending on how you define masculine in regards to emotion.
 

Inquisitor

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 6:25 PM
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
840
---
The real hysteria is women running around getting laid and having a choice in who they sleep with. That's a travesty. How dare a woman learn about sex and then go out and have it with people they find attractive. We can't stop the beastly behavior now. Women are set for the course of world domination.

We need to bring back arranged marriage. That will bring back the good values of dick swinging men. Outlaw oral sex performed on women. And they should be under their fathers control until they can get married off, to profit the father. 8th grade education is all they need. We would save so much on taxes if women stopped using public schools.

Funny. The sarcasm is not lost on me. You're talking to an INTP here. We live for that shit. Interestingly arranged marriages seem to have a lower divorce rate than the regular kind. So you might be onto something there.
 

The Gopher

President
Local time
Tomorrow 10:25 AM
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
4,674
---
Well they have a very strong "Learn to make it work" culture and since love isn't there at least initially that's almost easier than losing love and going "now what".

Disclaimer: The Gopher does not endorse or enforce arranged marriage. Not even on week ends. The Gopher also doesn't imply that love and chindren is a crutch people use to avoid building real and lasting relationships courtesy of INTPdating.com. The Gopher is unaffiliated with INTPd.
 

Inquisitor

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 6:25 PM
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
840
---
It's harder for females to mimic deep voices. :D (and something something higher voices better for social stuff) People mimic each other though. In the way they stand and everything not just voice and phrasing.



Well no, the one doing more "mirroring" puts the other in their comfort zone hence they are more comfortable and open to friendship. (or whatever other relationship) It doesn't mean "get run over by" or "physically turn into a female" it just means mimic for a sense of familiarity.

*just for those traumatized by PUA techniques yes they do tell people about this kind of stuff. However it's in the same way that psychopaths are lovely wonderful helping people. Psychopaths mimic nice people because it benefits them PUA use normal social behavior in manipulative ways.

Now I understand what you are trying to say, "masculine guys get the girls" and while that may be true for some people that has nothing to do with mirroring.

As for the "totally cool omg" language that's more universal than female more associated with emotion than gender. Since guys aren't encouraged to show as much emotion when talking to other guys you might see it less. So in that sense you may be correct depending on how you define masculine in regards to emotion.

Women have become more masculine in appearance. I see many women whose shoulders are broader than their hips...somehow this strikes me as being abnormal. Hips are supposed to be wider than shoulders in women, or at the very least equal, and the opposite is generally true in men, whose shoulders don't seem to have narrowed, thank god for that. Women do not appear to mimic men. But with men, I usually notice an immediate change in behavior when talking with women: more smiling, more facial expressions, higher pitched voices, more laughing. This is in informal situations btw. Professional settings are different. If you want a woman's friendship, act like that. If you want to get laid, that's the worst possible angle in my experience. Might as well staple a giant "pussy" sticker on your forehead.

About the language, I gotta disagree. I went to an all-boys school. Before college, I had never heard a boy talk that way. Yet it seems common in coed schools. Reason: men imitating women. If I had spoken that way in my school, I would have been labeled as "fag" immediately. Granted, that's kind of extreme and cruel, but the point stands that boys just don't talk to each other this way unless there are women around.
 

Deleted member 1424

Guest
Funny. The sarcasm is not lost on me. You're talking to an INTP here. We live for that shit. Interestingly arranged marriages seem to have a lower divorce rate than the regular kind. So you might be onto something there.

uhh...

Because they're socially and economically pressured/forced to stay... :ahh:

When people actually have a choice, sometimes they'll say no.


sidenote/rant:
Who exactly decided women can't be into effeminate men?
I'd take the 'effeminate' man over the gross, selfish dick slinging 'alphas' any day. I'm know I'm fairly odd, but most women want three-dimensional gentleman rather than controlling assholes.

c9RWgE2.jpg


I was going to put that in spoiler tags or resize it... but I feel a few of the choicer people in this thread should see more men in fishnets and their junk. :twisteddevil:

Rant:
Pick-up artistry is a business and more self-hating suckers buy into it every day because it appeals to the tenuous thought fallacies they've propped up their egos on. Is this never-ending bitching about women not acting how you wish them to, really the epitome of masculinity? Can't you just steal from fight club and beat the shit of out each other instead? It'd be a far less unsightly masculine renaissance.
 

ProxyAmenRa

Here to bring back the love!
Local time
Tomorrow 9:25 AM
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
4,668
---
Location
Australia
In lieu of sweeping broad statements, why not explain a bit what you mean by "effeminate" here. Do you just mean men who aren't as aggressive, or who might actually interact without trying to dominate, or who are willing to share in some more traditionally feminine social tasks, or who actually take women seriously in the workplace, or do you meant someone like this?

Well, I have met many women ,**cough** feminists, who want men to be like women. This is in terms of empathy and the manner in which social interactions are undertaken; more empathetic and group orientate and less assertive.

I conducted a poll with all of my highly educated female friends and acquaintances. Most of them said that they were feminists and had idea about how they want men to act. On a separate occasion, they stated that they're attracted to men who are assertive, take charge, make decisions for the group, keep them safe and not as empathetic as women. Ergo, there is an incongruity between how they want men to act and behave under a feminist lens and what types of men they're attracted to.

The amount of mental face palms I have done listening to them... They say they want men to do traditionally feminine tasks but they hate the idea of stay at home father and a husband that earns less than them. They say they want a man that is open to them about their emotional problems but they're not attracted to men who speak about such things.

My x-gf was like this. Compromising I did what she said she wanted. It caused nothing but problems in the relationship. I became a harmless "friend" in her eyes, loosing her attraction for me. Realizing the effects of this, the innumerable amount of problems it was causing, I reverted back to my normal autistic behavior. The problem was mostly solved.
 

The Gopher

President
Local time
Tomorrow 10:25 AM
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
4,674
---
Women have become more masculine in appearance. I see many women whose shoulders are broader than their hips...somehow this strikes me as being abnormal. Hips are supposed to be wider than shoulders in women, or at the very least equal, and the opposite is generally true in men, whose shoulders don't seem to have narrowed, thank god for that. Women do not appear to mimic men. But with men, I usually notice an immediate change in behavior when talking with women: more smiling, more facial expressions, higher pitched voices, more laughing. This is in informal situations btw. Professional settings are different. If you want a woman's friendship, act like that. If you want to get laid, that's the worst possible angle in my experience. Might as well staple a giant "pussy" sticker on your forehead.

About the language, I gotta disagree. I went to an all-boys school. Before college, I had never heard a boy talk that way. Yet it seems common in coed schools. Reason: men imitating women. If I had spoken that way in my school, I would have been labeled as "fag" immediately. Granted, that's kind of extreme and cruel, but the point stands that boys just don't talk to each other this way unless there are women around.

Well I pretty much said that in regards to language. Guys are far less likely to use language which could put them in prey like situations. When everyone is the "same" it's very easy to see who is "best". However around females they don't feel so threatened. If I'm talking to all males my behavior is different than when I am talking to all females which is also different when talking to a mix.

Now I don't change because I'm threatened I change because I naturally adapt to the group. If the group is all guys I'll be mostly "guy" like. If the group is both I'll be half and half. These are of course generalizations groups tend to be more complicated than that. So I'm not imitating women I'm imitating everyone. Take away the women and you take away that side.

That said while I say I imitate people I'm pretty much the same in any context it's fairly minor, akin to taking out irrelevant information. It's like entering a church and talking to christian people, I don't suddenly become an angel but there is no point in being a demon either. (wonders if I need analogies for my analogies) Put another way if I enter a gun range I won't start talking about the engine in my car I'll talk about guns and if the topic changes to cars then I'll do it.

Back to the top. No idea in regards to appearance haven't noticed it. If that was the case E/ISFP's wouldn't be sex demons. :D I'm not going to argue about what gets people laid vs friends vs married. Most people I talk to about this (from both sides up and down social ladders mind you) have a very one dimensional view. They find what works for them or what they lack and attribute or blame that. The lack or ability to be macho 24/7 is a very simple easy to state reason for those with a lack of emotional understanding.

Edit: just in regards to proxy technically true in some parts. Most people want someone who is better than them or equal to them in a relationship. So if someone who normally takes charge and is assertive becomes a light less competent version of themselves (themselves being "most people") it might not work. Sadly most people want friends to be worse than them so they can feel better about themselves. if you can take charge make decisions and be empathetic and less assertive at the right times you're set. Of course then you have the issue of everyone being worse than you so you'll have to settle and that's no fun. :D

Alternatively you can find someone specific.

If this offends you imagine most people are SJ's
 

cheese

Prolific Member
Local time
Tomorrow 10:25 AM
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
3,194
---
Location
internet/pubs
Gender roles and partner preference:
Just because some women are idiots and can't sort out what they want doesn't mean men have to buy into any prescribed behaviour, to be masculine or 'feminine' or whatever else. Men should be free too. Be a good person, be yourself, hopefully those two overlap, and whatever sort of person you end up being it's extremely likely that there is someone out there who wants that. It beggars belief to imagine some have never come across a woman who prefers a less traditionally masculine man for a partner. I do, people I know do. Shit, they're all throughout history and stories; the bossyboots matriach isn't a *new* archetype. Temperaments tend to match up - bossy, domineering women end up with passive, compromising men, and vice-versa. It's silly to think that there wouldn't be at least some aggressive women and some passive men. They'll find each other, and if they're too explosive, they'll destroy each other and/or find someone more middling.

All stories like Proxy's and others' tell us is that somewhere out there, some women don't know what they want. People being ignorant isn't news... and I have a bunch of stories about men who didn't know what they wanted either. Being confused about your preferences doesn't mean that now, everyone has to follow those secretly true preferences of yours. Know what you want, find what you want, then stop complaining about what everyone else does because we don't all want the same thing; if you genuinely haven't come across diversity in that regard then I am blown away (homosexuality? BDSM, with dom women and sub men?). People will build their little communities that teach each other how to be The Thing which gets The Other Thing, and other people will form into their little cliques banding against those crazy Thing fetishishts, and other people will casually absorb mainstream culture and adapt, and eventually it'll all work its way round and most people will be happy getting what they actually want. It would be a step backwards forcing everyone back into roles that don't fit them. See your desires as one set of preferences, rather than representative of global preference - you and all the others like you are just one clique in town.

I actually don't see a major problem with the PU community, other than that it peddles its dogma as absolute, unquestionable truth (could eventually be a dangerous social force in that regard). But some women *do* want all that, and these men obviously want those women, so go at it. It's fulfilling some need. The problem is when they see new recruits coming in who suddenly 'see the light' and assume everyone who came through their dark doors would react just as positively - you don't actually know that. People who gravitate to a group are drawn to something relevant to them. Other people aren't drawn. It's not a random sample.

As for size/shape changing:
Women aren't forced into shaping clothes these days the way they used to be, so you will see their natural shape, and that varies. If you put a skinny, narrow-hipped woman in a dress which nips in at the waist and flares out at the bottom, 50s style, she'll probably look a lot like one of the adverts. Clothes create illusions. Exercises focused on building muscle are also far more popular these days with women than in the past. Traditional bodybuilders were preoccupied with getting the right proportions, and found their own shape could be manipulated somewhat with focus on different areas, so we know body proportions can change somewhat under an exercise routine. If there are genuinely more broad-shouldered women these days it could be because there are more athletic women. (Many in the fitness world suffer from the same delusions of homogeneity too. They're convinced that their standard for what a man or woman should look like is universally shared. Never mind the fact that I can find a (sometimes deeply) contradictory standard in about 1 minute, also fervently believed as the ideal everyone 'secretly' holds.)

My guess on mirroring in conversation:
Mirroring anyone gets you their comfort and approval. It can be done as a peer or as a lower status person seeking acceptance.
Mirroring women in particular could be for either of those reasons, which points to desiring relationship (not necessarily sexual/romantic), which supports both the idea that women have power in sexual transactions, and that men and women socialise as equals/potential friends more commonly than before.

However, it could also be that women's interaction style is more conducive to intimacy and making genuine connections. Perhaps women don't mirror men as much (if this is even true) because typically, the latter's style is more aloof and detached, and creates more guardedness and reserve in others.

Lastly, it's possible they're not mirroring at all, but simply feel all that excitement and happiness when talking to women. (I think voices naturally go up in pitch when emotions are high and positive.) Perhaps the difference between the past and now, if any, is that these boys haven't been taught to maintain their masculine facade when excited. Perhaps they're more careful around other males because non-masculinity is penalised more heavily there - in-groupers in your community of identity are more able to strip you of membership than out-groupers. Men potentially threaten each other's identity/perception of self in ways that women don't.

Also, I've noticed women do mirror men when they want to be received as an in-group member. They don't mirror men when they want the advantages afforded them by their gender role and the sexual possibility it implies. Or perhaps when they don't know how.

*edit
And Gopher made a good point about flexibility, which ties into mirroring for acceptance/the other's comfort. Some people simply mirror whoever they're around, and in groups go for the combined styles' average. Most people do this ime - groups tend to settle around a mean, which eventually creates in-group culture.
 

Inquisitor

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 6:25 PM
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
840
---
So people on this thread have given me a lot to think about...Many great points. Glad I posted about this, feel like my views on this issue have become more nuanced and refined. I'm still convinced that American women are more masculine physically than their counterparts in other areas of the world, and that men are generally less assertive in behavior now than in the past. Some also do appear more physically feminine, but it's hard to tell given that 2/3 of Americans are overweight, so everything's covered in a layer of fat. I think a large part of this can be explained by milk consumption.

It appears there's been very little research so far into the effects of naturally occurring hormones in cow milk. Preliminary research suggests that these do have an impact on human growth and development, and possibly cancer as well. rBGH is not the issue. It was banned anyway. That stuff gets 90% inactivated during pasteurization and the rest is broken down. The FDA apparently allows use of "natural" hormones in dairy cows and cattle using a sub-dermal pack. In addition, it's unclear what role, if any, stressful conditions play in altering cow milk. One study found cortisol concentration increased 12X in milk after a stressful event. How does this translate into human effects? Again, not much research on this.

I'm still going on general impressions here, but Americans just don't look right to me. In the Chinese countryside, men and women simply do not look anything like Americans. The distinction in physical appearance is much clearer than in America. Dudes look slim, wiry and have angular/chiseled faces, and women are slim, generally have hips that are wider than their shoulders or have sharply tapering waists and just have very feminine faces. In the cities though, I found lots of Chinese people that have the same kinds of bodies as Americans. Do Chinese people in the countryside drink milk? Nope. Do urban Chinese drink milk? Yup. It's sold at every convenience store, and there's one of those every few feet of sidewalk. It's available for purchase in schools, and you see loads of kids drinking little cartons of milk as they're walking around. But it's not only milk they drink in the city, it's also yogurt products/shakes.

Factory meat may turn out to also have higher levels of "natural" hormones, but for the moment, it seems like dairy is the major contributor of exogenous hormone consumption. Meat/egg consumption has also increased dramatically in China, so this could be a reason as well. Naturally-raised meat does not appear to have this gender reversal effect in and of itself. Several counter-examples come to mind to support this: Native Americans, Maasai, Inuit, Mongolians. They all ate meat, and they don't look like Americans.

Here's some research:

Ganmaa et al. (Harvard researcher)
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Nutrients, hormones and growth factors in dairy foods may stimulate growth hormone (GH), insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I), and raise the ratio of IGF-I to its binding protein, IGFBP-3. We conducted pilot studies in Mongolia and Massachusetts to test the extent to which milk intake raised somatotropic hormone concentrations in prepubertal children.
METHODS:
In Ulaanbaatar, we compared plasma levels before and after introducing 710 ml daily whole milk for a month among 46 10-11 year old schoolchildren. In a randomized cross-over study in Boston, we compared plasma hormone levels of 28 6-8 year old girls after one week of drinking 710 ml low fat (2%) milk with their hormone levels after one week of consuming a macronutrient substitute for milk.
RESULTS:
After a month of drinking whole milk, Mongolian children had higher mean plasma levels of IGF-I (p < 0.0001), IGF-I/IGFBP-3 (p < 0.0001), and 75th percentile of GH levels (p = 0.005). After a week of drinking low fat milk, Boston girls had small and non-significant increases in IGF-1, IGF-1/IGFBP-3 and GH.
CONCLUSION:
Milk drinking may cause increases in somatotropic hormone levels of prepubertal girls and boys. The finding that milk intake may raise GH levels is novel, and suggests that nutrients or bioactive factors in milk may stimulate endogenous GH production.

Maruyama et al.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Modern genetically improved dairy cows continue to lactate throughout almost the entire pregnancy. Therefore, recent commercial cow's milk contains large amounts of estrogens and progesterone. With regard to the exposure of prepubertal children to exogenous estrogens, the authors are particularly concerned about commercial milk produced from pregnant cows. The purpose of the present study was therefore to examine concentrations of serum and urine sex hormones after the intake of cow milk.
METHODS:
Subjects were seven men, six prepubertal children, and five women. The men and children drank 600 mL/m(2) of cow milk. Urine samples were collected 1 h before the milk intake and four times every hour after intake. In men the serum samples were obtained before and 15, 30, 45, 60, 90 and 120 min after milk intake. Women drank 500 mL of cow's milk every night for 21 days beginning on the first day of the second menstruation. In three successive menstrual cycles, the day of ovulation was examined using an ovulation checker.
RESULTS:
After the intake of cow milk, serum estrone (E1) and progesterone concentrations significantly increased, and serum luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone and testosterone significantly decreased in men. Urine concentrations of E1, estradiol, estriol and pregnanediol significantly increased in all adults and children. In four out of five women, ovulation occurred during the milk intake, and the timing of ovulation was similar among the three menstrual cycles.
CONCLUSIONS:
The present data on men and children indicate that estrogens in milk were absorbed, and gonadotropin secretion was suppressed, followed by a decrease in testosterone secretion. Sexual maturation of prepubertal children could be affected by the ordinary intake of cow milk.

Milk cortisol concentrations as an indicator of stress in lactating dairy cows
Abstract
The aim of this study was to compare cortisol concentrations in plasma (PCC) and milk (MCC) following administration of exogenous ACTH1-24 or activation of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis by a stressor (transport) in cows. Fifteen cows in mid-lactation were assigned to treatments with ACTH1-24 (0.05 mg SynacthenTM iv at 1300h), transport (trucking for two 45 min periods from 1300h) or control (sampling only) in a 3x3 Latin square design. Blood samples were collected hourly from 1300- 1500h and a composite milk sample was obtained at routine milking at 1515h. There was a 6-fold elevation in PCC by 60 min following both ACTH treatment and transportation. At 120 min, PCC was two-fold higher in ACTH treated cows but remained at levels similar to those at 60 min in the transported animals, indicating that the adrenocortical response had been maintained during transport. Mean MCC was 12-fold greater after the transport treatment and a factor of 2 higher after ACTH treatment, compared to the control treatment (P<0.01). Values of MCC and PCC at the 120 min sampling were highly correlated (r = 0.80; P<0.001). This suggested that MCC may be a useful indicator of adrenocortical response to stressors, provided samples are obtained during the period of elevated PCC.

Some other websites to round out my hypothesis:
Growth hormones in milk: myth/fact

Turns Out Your "Hormone-Free" Milk Is Full of Sex Hormones

Chickens do not receive growth hormones so why all the confusion?

Natural occurrence of steroid hormones in food

What's in your milk?
 

tobbA

Redshirt
Local time
Tomorrow 12:25 AM
Joined
May 18, 2009
Messages
15
---
This might seem to be the case on a superficial level... But, in fact, men are becoming more manly and women are becoming more womanly. There seems to be a correlation between wealthy societies with good gender equality and greater sexual dimorphism. For example, women and men in more gender equal societies are more drawn to gender-stereotypical occupations. There's even greater physical differences between men and women in such societies. (Men becoming taller than women to a greater degree, for example.)

An explanation for this phenomena is that in more wealthy societies people aren't as constrained by their environment and their innate traits can be more strongly expressed.

Source: http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/0022-3514.94.1.168
 

Inquisitor

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 6:25 PM
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
840
---
This might seem to be the case on a superficial level... But, in fact, men are becoming more manly and women are becoming more womanly. There seems to be a correlation between wealthy societies with good gender equality and greater sexual dimorphism. For example, women and men in more gender equal societies are more drawn to gender-stereotypical occupations. There's even greater physical differences between men and women in such societies. (Men becoming taller than women to a greater degree, for example.)

An explanation for this phenomena is that in more wealthy societies people aren't as constrained by their environment and their innate traits can be more strongly expressed.

Source: http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/0022-3514.94.1.168

Nice try. But no.
 

tobbA

Redshirt
Local time
Tomorrow 12:25 AM
Joined
May 18, 2009
Messages
15
---
Well, the data is there whether you believe in it or not. :)
 

crippli

disturbed
Local time
Tomorrow 12:25 AM
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
1,779
---
If one compare real life to a movie. Then there is a writer, choreography, director and so on. If I understand this thread right, the issue is that males play the woman role and visa versa and the second issue the writer and director of the roles.

I find it odd that one focuses more on the visual, then on the story. I've noticed in movies too that people will play all sort of casts. But the other sex? That is very rare. Even if it wouldn't take away from the story.

So I'm inclined to go with tobbA'a version. That it's getting more rigid, and more exaggerated. In real life that is. It didn't used to be like that. Jesus drank his last supper with a man who carried water. All of Shakespeare's plays where done by men, as was of course unfair. But the point is. It didn't take away from the story. Today it does. And it appears, one want more dimorphism.

So it's progressed from the deep to the shallow. As I think is unfortunate.

Ansel Admas once wrote: "There is nothing worse then a sharp picture of a blurry subject". Isn't this what today's directors try to do? Pinning down a genderrole to sex. When it is a free role? How is one to get at the story if it is confusicated?
 

TBerg

fallen angel who hasn't earned his wings
Local time
Today 5:25 PM
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
2,453
---
I would like to know what effect the widespread dissemination of pornography had upon sexual dimorphism in the culture and whether this has contributed to the decline in birth rates.
 

onesteptwostep

Junior Hegelian
Local time
Tomorrow 8:25 AM
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
4,253
---
I think the topic died down a bit but I want to add something:

About the language, I gotta disagree. I went to an all-boys school. Before college, I had never heard a boy talk that way. Yet it seems common in coed schools. Reason: men imitating women. If I had spoken that way in my school, I would have been labeled as "fag" immediately. Granted, that's kind of extreme and cruel, but the point stands that boys just don't talk to each other this way unless there are women around.

I went to mixed schools all my li- well actually I've been in one school where the homeclass was all male.. er anyway- see, that's where our perspectives differ, because of our different upbringing and environment. The masculine/feminine dynamics and culture regarding gender are overall a lot more different now, for the newer generation. It's really different in co-ed schools. It doesn't mean the guys are pussies, it's just how some of them interact at their best. In adolescence a certain sex can employ a certain gender trait to achieve status in a particular social arena as well- it's not always just for male-female bonding. I think you're erked by it because you're unfamiliar with the (new/recent/whatever) power dynamic- it's not, let's say, exactly 'traditional'.

In someways this is what I mean when I say that sexuality seems to develop later these days (like I said a page back). But then again, um, I think when guys start to mature they tone that stuff down, for the most part- to get a mate, primary.

As for females appearing masculine I think it's a common sight to see in most developed/western countries. Europe for example; the females there don't seem to be that 'traditional' looking. I do think there's a food/diet aspect that has impact though (I agree with you).
 

Inquisitor

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 6:25 PM
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
840
---
I think the topic died down a bit but I want to add something:



I went to mixed schools all my li- well actually I've been in one school where the homeclass was all male.. er anyway- see, that's where our perspectives differ, because of our different upbringing and environment. The masculine/feminine dynamics and culture regarding gender are overall a lot more different now, for the newer generation. It's really different in co-ed schools. It doesn't mean the guys are pussies, it's just how some of them interact at their best. In adolescence a certain sex can employ a certain gender trait to achieve status in a particular social arena as well- it's not always just for male-female bonding.

As for females appearing masculine I think it's a common sight to see in most developed/western countries. Europe for example; the females there don't seem to be that 'traditional' looking. I do think there's a food/diet aspect that has impact though (I agree with you).

I think I'm gonna re-post my last in another thread...I really do think that western women in generally have abnormally large shoulders, while in China you generally don't see this. I can't believe that this is just genetic. Where I live, there a lot of Chinese students/post-docs etc. The women have narrow shoulders even though they are just as tall as western women in many cases. If you really look closely at the way they're built, it seems clear that Chinese women (and men) are taller and fatter than in days past (probably due to increased meat consumption). But the women seem to have retained for the most part their feminine looks and bone structure. American women have not. That's what makes me think there is something very specific about what gets ingested during childhood/puberty that is resulting in clear physical differences here.

I think you're erked by it because you're unfamiliar with the (new/recent/whatever) power dynamic- it's not, let's say, exactly 'traditional'.

You're right that it does irk me. For me, the existence of this weird and relatively new power dynamic is just plain wrong. Men shouldn't feel like they have to talk and act like women in order to fit in. Something's not right there.

In someways this is what I mean when I say that sexuality seems to develop later these days (like I said a page back). But then again, um, I think when guys start to mature they tone that stuff down, for the most part- to get a mate, primary.

Yeah maturity does come later for men than for women. No doubt about that.
 

Inquisitor

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 6:25 PM
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
840
---
I would like to know what effect the widespread dissemination of pornography had upon sexual dimorphism in the culture and whether this has contributed to the decline in birth rates.

There's sure to be an effect of some kind. Probably much less than education though. IIRC that's the single most significant factor leading to declining birth rates.
 

Haim

Worlds creator
Local time
Tomorrow 2:25 AM
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
817
---
Location
Israel
If that's true I have a theory.
Now days woman have a lot more choice to choose the father of theirs children also the human races are a lot more mixed up,especially in the US which again increase the choice.
So if a woman can now choose a more "manly" man her children will have more "manly" features,that is true also for the girls.
Other thing worte to explore is the move to "health food"(as the advertisement say)
 

Lot

Don't forget to bring a towel
Local time
Today 3:25 PM
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Messages
1,252
---
Location
Phoenix, Arizona
There's sure to be an effect of some kind. Probably much less than education though. IIRC that's the single most significant factor leading to declining birth rates.

You might want to do a bit more research into porn's effect on the brain. Porn addiction is very real and very damaging to motivation/sex drive. It raises estrogen, and increases anxiety.


I'm going to be honest now. An actual serious response, no mocking. I can see what you are talking about in the OP. In fact I used to think pretty much the same things, up until a little over a year ago. I came from a strongly conservative christian house hold, then joined and even more conservative and extremist christian cult as a young adult.

I did absolutely no dating at all since I was 19 until I was 26. Casual dating messed with me bad. It pissed me off. I even used the same exact words in a video I posted on here about women acting like men. Then I started to understand feminism. I looked into all the brainwashing that has gone on through out history, in an attempt to keep women uneducated, house keepers, and nannies (although, I'm sure most of that was unintentional, or cultural gender myths). I've known that women are very capable, but I still had these notions that pretty much put them in the category of "Potential Mate". Very dehumanizing to everyone involved.

Not every woman is going to fit your personal ideal partner. Not every cultural shift is going to yield what your thing is. The current culture now, in America, is not something That appeals to you. I get that. I've even said that I should go to other countries to find women. Maybe they can appreciate me. Although, I'm not a "manly man". I never was. I'm skinny, suffer from chronic pain, open with my emotions, quick to to be a servant, and most importantly I have little confidence. I've found a bit more luck over seas, but the problem lies with my sense of entitlement for romance with a woman, because she showed interest. Along with my lack of confidence, mostly because of being butt hurt by women not gushing over me.

After a lot of thinking and finding new perspectives through mind altering drugs, I started to question the very nature gender and attraction. Eventually I ended up falling for someone on this forum. I had my hunches they were male, but I wanted to think them a woman. Turned out to be male and I had to reexamine my own sexuality. Which lead me to the realization that without genitals, or cultural gender markings, I can't really tell the difference. (Before this point, I had been utterly disgusted by the idea of a homosexual relationship)

So what I'm trying to say, is that maybe since you've been out of the dating world for so long, you might want to start dating different types of women and try to find who your type is. Also examining the signals you give out which might attract these masculine women to you, or what ever. Lastly, things change. They can change over night. Culture is an ever moving and changing thing, and modernity is still really new. (I'm including post-modern thinking as a part of modernity.) We are now free to question and change who we are, and women more so than ever before. Give it time, and we can work out the kinks.

I hope that was helpful, and easy to follow. I'm not trying to be accusatory with anything I've written here. Just trying to address what I understand from your position. And sorry for being mocking with my previous posts.
 

onesteptwostep

Junior Hegelian
Local time
Tomorrow 8:25 AM
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
4,253
---
Porn's a matter of debate, but yes for the most part it's generally agreed that it's harmful (even by those in the industry >.> *cough* anyway,)

Actually it's another good topic to follow up on, the debate's interesting (and funny generally :D er there's lots of hamaratia going on in the comments in that debate so it's best if you ignore them if you're watching)
 

Minuend

pat pat
Local time
Tomorrow 12:25 AM
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
4,142
---
I've found a bit more luck over seas, but the problem lies with my sense of entitlement for romance with a woman, because she showed interest. Along with my lack of confidence, mostly because of being butt hurt by women not gushing over me.

Do you know from where this entitlement is born? It's something I've been curious about for a long time.

Interesting post.
 

Inquisitor

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 6:25 PM
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
840
---
You might want to do a bit more research into porn's effect on the brain. Porn addiction is very real and very damaging to motivation/sex drive. It raises estrogen, and increases anxiety.

Not saying it isn't, just that globally, when education levels increase in a country, birth rate tends to decline rather dramatically. No doubt porn probably isn't helping increase birth rates.


I'm going to be honest now. An actual serious response, no mocking. I can see what you are talking about in the OP. In fact I used to think pretty much the same things, up until a little over a year ago. I came from a strongly conservative christian house hold, then joined and even more conservative and extremist christian cult as a young adult.

I did absolutely no dating at all since I was 19 until I was 26. Casual dating messed with me bad. It pissed me off. I even used the same exact words in a video I posted on here about women acting like men. Then I started to understand feminism. I looked into all the brainwashing that has gone on through out history, in an attempt to keep women uneducated, house keepers, and nannies (although, I'm sure most of that was unintentional, or cultural gender myths). I've known that women are very capable, but I still had these notions that pretty much put them in the category of "Potential Mate". Very dehumanizing to everyone involved.

Not every woman is going to fit your personal ideal partner. Not every cultural shift is going to yield what your thing is. The current culture now, in America, is not something That appeals to you. I get that. I've even said that I should go to other countries to find women. Maybe they can appreciate me. Although, I'm not a "manly man". I never was. I'm skinny, suffer from chronic pain, open with my emotions, quick to to be a servant, and most importantly I have little confidence. I've found a bit more luck over seas, but the problem lies with my sense of entitlement for romance with a woman, because she showed interest. Along with my lack of confidence, mostly because of being butt hurt by women not gushing over me.

After a lot of thinking and finding new perspectives through mind altering drugs, I started to question the very nature gender and attraction. Eventually I ended up falling for someone on this forum. I had my hunches they were male, but I wanted to think them a woman. Turned out to be male and I had to reexamine my own sexuality. Which lead me to the realization that without genitals, or cultural gender markings, I can't really tell the difference. (Before this point, I had been utterly disgusted by the idea of a homosexual relationship)

So what I'm trying to say, is that maybe since you've been out of the dating world for so long, you might want to start dating different types of women and try to find who your type is. Also examining the signals you give out which might attract these masculine women to you, or what ever. Lastly, things change. They can change over night. Culture is an ever moving and changing thing, and modernity is still really new. (I'm including post-modern thinking as a part of modernity.) We are now free to question and change who we are, and women more so than ever before. Give it time, and we can work out the kinks.

I hope that was helpful, and easy to follow. I'm not trying to be accusatory with anything I've written here. Just trying to address what I understand from your position. And sorry for being mocking with my previous posts.

Interesting story. Thanks for sharing. I am looking for a psychologically-compatible woman. Since I'm INTP, INFJ seems like it would be worth exploring. They are the rarest of types though (1% I believe?) so hard to find. The trouble is, even if I do run into one, if I'm not physically attracted to her because she looks more manly than she should due to exogenous factors like diet, that really sucks. I don't attract masculine women per se, but hopefully you're right that things will change and women will start to look like they should. Feminism served its purpose and created "equal work for equal pay." That's a good thing. Now the legal system is biased in favor of women, so the pendulum needs to swing back in the other direction.
 
Top Bottom