gandalf-the gray. INTP???

[gedanken]

i started read lord of the rings and try typology gandalf... think he might be an INTP ( most because he's laziness ^^ ) what you think?

ps: sorry for bad english, are not my home language

 

[Proletar]

In the book he's an INTJ along with Saruman, but in the Peter Jackson-adaptations he certainly is an INTP.

 

[Architect]

What Proletar said, with the caveat that in either case he's really not fleshed out enough to tell. Plus whatever persona we attribute to the Maiar is probably a false comparison.

 

[Melkor]

Don't think so in either case.
The most INTP wizard is probably Radagast, Gandalf shows none of the uncertainty, amorality and laziness of the typical INTP.

I'd say he was resolutely INTJ in both, capable of gross levels of self confidence, with great impatience for those beneath his station and the ability to organise and plan on a mass scale CONSTANTLY.

An Intp wizard would be caught up in his own little world, and likely wouldn't concern himself with 'greater goods' and such. Too humble and distracted.
But what do I know?XD

Now an ENTP wizard... That'd be magic.

 

[Ink]

I'd say the actor in the movies is an ENFP, trying to display an INTP, INTJ, INFJ character... I remember Aragorn (actor INTJ, I guess portrayed as INFJ) and Frodo (actor ISFP I'd guess) were my favourites first watching it as a kid...

 

[Lot]

I got a bit of an E vibe like ENTP from him in the movies, but INTP is totally acceptable IMO. I'm so used to INTJ's being bad guys, that my first instinct is to see good guy INTx's being INTP's. INTJ doesn't seem too far fetched, but I'm just going off the vibe I get. I'd have to reread the book with cognitive functions in mind to type him fully.

 

[gedanken]

I'm so used to INTJ's being bad guys

hahaha, i think the same .... perhaps this is why i thought gandalf was intp..
probably is INTJ.. i didn't read all the books yet, lets see what i find ^^

 

[snafupants]

Are people still talking about the LOTR movies and spinoffs?

 

[gedanken]

i think so... now we have THE HOBBIT movies *-*..

 

[Nissa]

Oh man, you would not believe how much bile and ire I can spew over LOTR. The shameful writing, the hammy acting, the uninspired editing....I better stop myself before I get all worked up about it.

An Intp wizard would be caught up in his own little world, and likely wouldn't concern himself with 'greater goods' and such. Too humble and distracted.

Aw, come on. That's like saying one of us can't be a hero wizard. On behalf of the hero wizards, I take offense to that!

 

[just george]

saruman - INTP. Spent all his time planning, watching, and telling orcs to make stuff for him.

gandalf - ENTP. Maker of fireworks, actively participating in his plans personally (fighting, yelling at people, making plans on the fly (the air smells cleaner this way) bonking the steward of gondor on the head etc). Bit too much of a people person for an INTP imo

My God. Im turning into a nerd.

 

[Philosophyking87]

Don't think so in either case.
The most INTP wizard is probably Radagast, Gandalf shows none of the uncertainty, amorality and laziness of the typical INTP.

No. Radagast is a clear NF (maybe an INFP).

I'd say he was resolutely INTJ in both, capable of gross levels of self confidence, with great impatience for those beneath his station and the ability to organise and plan on a mass scale CONSTANTLY.

No. In the movie, Gandalf the Grey is less competent, more curious than decisive, and quite laid back. He clearly contrasts with Saruman (ENTJ). He's more passive and intimidated like a student. An INTJ would be much more active, confident, decisive, and hardly as intimidated by another NTJ. This is essentially how Gandalf the WHITE comes off.

An Intp wizard would be caught up in his own little world, and likely wouldn't concern himself with 'greater goods' and such. Too humble and distracted.

Unlikely. INTPs, being rationals (NT), are ulitmately just as concerned as other NTs with strategically and analytically scanning the world in various ways. The only difference is that INTPs tend to leave this project a mere theoretical, abstract event that occurs in the mind (and possibly discussed) but only rarely applied.

So the difference is 'application' - not 'concern.' I'd say INTPs are one of the most concerned types with respect to many global aspects of the world (such as 'the greater good'). Where we are less interested and concerned is daily life, details, and practical nuances.

And so, maybe if the entire problem in Middle Earth was figuring out how to plant the next batch of crops, you'd have a point that a wizard at all concerned with that problem would almost definitely NOT be an INTP. But that's crops... not the end of peace and an entire way of life.

I'd say the actor in the movies is an ENFP, trying to display an INTP, INTJ, INFJ character... I remember Aragorn (actor INTJ, I guess portrayed as INFJ) and Frodo (actor ISFP I'd guess) were my favourites first watching it as a kid...

I'd say Aragorn is an ISTJ. He's practical, loyal, and reliable. And he certainly isn't very emotional (but instead stoic, reserved, and composed). He's simply very kind. But not all thinking types are unkind.

 

[scorpiomover]

Don't think so in either case.
The most INTP wizard is probably Radagast,

Haven't seen the film.

Gandalf shows none of the uncertainty, amorality and laziness of the typical INTP.

In all of Middle-Earth, there was only one ring, that, if dropped in a fire, would show that lettering, and no other, and that was the ring of Saruman. As long as the ring still existed, Sauron was still alive, and could return. It could only be destroyed in the fires of Mount Doom.

Gandalf was a big-time wizard, and thousands of years old. AFAIK, he was born before the beginning of the First Age. Isildur wasn't even born until the year 3029 of the Second Age, which means that Gandalf was probably around when the battle with Sauron happened. But even without that, he must have known all the above.

Personally, if anyone with a brain had known of Bilbo's ring, he would have chucked it in the fire right away, seen the writing, and immediately dispatched the ring-bearer to Mount Doom. Gandalf was the one to send Bilbo on his travels in "The Hobbit", which began in the year 2941 of the Third Age. IIRC, the trip took a year, and so he returned with the ring in TA 2942. Bilbo told Gandalf of all his adventures, and was his closest confidante other than Frodo. At this point, Bilbo had only just got the ring, and so was not yet that affected by it, and so had no strong motive to hide it from Gandalf. So Bilbo almost certainly told him of the ring.

Bilbo left Frodo the ring when he was 111. Bilbo was born in the year 2890 of the Third Age. So Frodo got the ring in the year 3001 of the Third Age. Gandalf only told Frodo to set off to destroy the ring in the year 3018 of the Third Age.

Put simply, from the time that Gandalf most likely first knew that the ring had been found, and had to be sent to Mount Doom to be destroyed for the sake of all on Middle-Earth in about TA 2942, to the time he actually sent Frodo to destroy the ring, in TA 3018, approximately 76 years have passed.

Even the most indecisive of wizards would surely have made the decision to get rid of the ring, decades earlier. Even if he'd only sent the Fellowship a year earlier, that would have been almost a whole year before Sauron and the Black Riders knew the ring had been found, and that would have made the whole thing much, much safer. Gandalf risked the fate of the entire Middle-Earth, by delaying the decision to destroy the ring, to as absolutely late as possible.

If ANYONE here showed anywhere near that level of indecisiveness over such a major threat, I think it's fair to say their P-ness is extreme. If Gandalf was an INTJ, then one might even say that Gandalf could have been an INTJ with Avoidant Personality Disorder.

I'd say he was resolutely INTJ in both, capable of gross levels of self confidence, with great impatience for those beneath his station and the ability to organise and plan on a mass scale CONSTANTLY.

An Intp wizard would be caught up in his own little world, and likely wouldn't concern himself with 'greater goods' and such. Too humble and distracted.
But what do I know?XD)

I've noticed that lots of INTPs really get impatient here, when others say or do things they regard as ridiculously stupid or reckless. I also noticed that there was a thread on leadership here, with several INTPs saying they led teams. One said that he ran a team of 70.

Also, if you read about Einstein, he was the one to contact Roosevelt about making a bomb. He believed that Germany was trying to make one, and to stop the Nazis, the Americans had to get there first. He also wrote about how great it would be, if the world followed "socialism". Clearly, a man who was very concerned about the world in general.

I think you have to remember that Gandalf was 2,000 years old, and had travelled widely. He was not at all like a typical online INTP, who is usually under 30, and lives in a nice, safe middle-class home. He had many years to become more sure of himself, to hone his cognitive skills, and had a lot of experience of the world.

Even so, he was unbelievably indecisive about the ring. I think he thought that if the ring could have just stayed in the Shire, then it might have been safe, as long as no-one knew about it. He was "playing safe".

No. In the movie, Gandalf the Grey is less competent, more curious than decisive, and quite laid back. He clearly contrasts with Saruman (ENTJ). He's more passive and intimidated like a student. An INTJ would be much more active, confident, decisive, and hardly as intimidated by another NTJ. This is essentially how Gandalf the WHITE comes off.

Gandalf the White is definitely decisive. But he's much older, and gone through a Near-Death Experience, which makes him realise that he has a job to do, and makes him wake up out of his general laid-back-ness. Personality Junkie points out that INTPs resemble INTJs when they get much older. Also, Gandalf is very concerned for the health of Pippin after he looks into the Palantir, and carries him to Gondor. He is also very concerned for the health of Theoden, the king of Rohan. He seems to have great Fe concern for others, and none of the total lack of respect for others, that INTJs have. Also, when he does express his emotions, such as when he finds Pippin with the Palantir, he expresses strong emotion very quickly, "Fool of a Took!". INTJs suppress their emotions. INTPs repress ours, and then they come out as occasional outbursts, which is just what Gandalf seems to do. So I'd say that he's a lot like an xNTP.

 

[Jennywocky]

No. In the movie, Gandalf the Grey is less competent, more curious than decisive, and quite laid back. He clearly contrasts with Saruman (ENTJ). He's more passive and intimidated like a student. An INTJ would be much more active, confident, decisive, and hardly as intimidated by another NTJ. This is essentially how Gandalf the WHITE comes off.

And this kind of highlights one of the problems with typing beings like this.

Essentially Gandalf the White has faith/knowledge that he did not have previously. So it changes how he responds to things. It's not necessarily a type shift or anything, it's simply that Gandalf the Grey seems to have forgotten a lot while wearing the flesh of a man, and Gandalf the White is scrubbed clean of all those years of doubt and getting mired in life and has a clear clean channel to the West again... essentially being reborn.

it's a problem even in typing people who have chosen "faith beliefs" because faith values are not information like other types of information. It's a choice to believe something is true regardless of what corroborating evidence exists, and all types can choose to have faith. So assurednness in the faith info doesn't really say anything about type.

 

[Ink]

I'd say Aragorn is an ISTJ. He's practical, loyal, and reliable. And he certainly isn't very emotional (but instead stoic, reserved, and composed). He's simply very kind. But not all thinking types are unkind.

Probably, many years ago I read the books. The actor is definitely a Ni-dom though

 

[Montresor]

Haven't read all posts here but my vote is INTJ he is basically responsible for Aragorn reuniting the realms. He orchestrated it all, I think Melkor said this?


Edit: Elrond closer to INTP? Impenetrable fortress... also played an equal role in planning Aragorn's conquest. Lives in dreamland. Ti-dom?

 

[Valentas]

Wow, people here are really into LotR. I could not analyze characters so well as you. :}

Do you know what is the moral of all the posts? You need to experience near-death and you'll become and INTJ...beware of dangerous stuff people!!

 

[Ink]

Edit: Elrond closer to INTP? Impenetrable fortress... also played an equal role in planning Aragorn's conquest. Lives in dreamland. Ti-dom?

The actor striked me as an INTP in all the movies I've seen him in, haven't seen any footage of him in person...

 

[Reluctantly]

And this kind of highlights one of the problems with typing beings like this.

Essentially Gandalf the White has faith/knowledge that he did not have previously. So it changes how he responds to things. It's not necessarily a type shift or anything, it's simply that Gandalf the Grey seems to have forgotten a lot while wearing the flesh of a man, and Gandalf the White is scrubbed clean of all those years of doubt and getting mired in life and has a clear clean channel to the West again... essentially being reborn.

it's a problem even in typing people who have chosen "faith beliefs" because faith values are not information like other types of information. It's a choice to believe something is true regardless of what corroborating evidence exists, and all types can choose to have faith. So assurednness in the faith info doesn't really say anything about type.

K, then what type?

 

[Philosophyking87]

Haven't seen the film.

Go see it. Now. They are easily some of the best films ever made.
(Just don't expect them to be 'exactly' like the books. Despite tedious details, the movies are phenomenal. You might even enjoy the generally dark, mysterious music.)

If ANYONE here showed anywhere near that level of indecisiveness over such a major threat, I think it's fair to say their P-ness is extreme. If Gandalf was an INTJ, then one might even say that Gandalf could have been an INTJ with Avoidant Personality Disorder.

I also noticed that there was a thread on leadership here, with several INTPs saying they led teams. One said that he ran a team of 70.

Also, if you read about Einstein, he was the one to contact Roosevelt about making a bomb. He believed that Germany was trying to make one, and to stop the Nazis, the Americans had to get there first. He also wrote about how great it would be, if the world followed "socialism". Clearly, a man who was very concerned about the world in general.

Even so, he was unbelievably indecisive about the ring. I think he thought that if the ring could have just stayed in the Shire, then it might have been safe, as long as no-one knew about it. He was "playing safe".

Great points about indecisiveness and world-concern.

Gandalf the White is definitely decisive. But he's much older, and gone through a Near-Death Experience, which makes him realise that he has a job to do, and makes him wake up out of his general laid-back-ness. Personality Junkie points out that INTPs resemble INTJs when they get much older. Also, Gandalf is very concerned for the health of Pippin after he looks into the Palantir, and carries him to Gondor. He is also very concerned for the health of Theoden, the king of Rohan. He seems to have great Fe concern for others, and none of the total lack of respect for others, that INTJs have. Also, when he does express his emotions, such as when he finds Pippin with the Palantir, he expresses strong emotion very quickly, "Fool of a Took!". INTJs suppress their emotions. INTPs repress ours, and then they come out as occasional outbursts, which is just what Gandalf seems to do. So I'd say that he's a lot like an xNTP.

I'll have to get back to you on this one. Very interesting analysis.

Probably, many years ago I read the books. The actor is definitely a Ni-dom though

I wouldn't doubt that.

Haven't read all posts here but my vote is INTJ he is basically responsible for Aragorn reuniting the realms. He orchestrated it all, I think Melkor said this?

Why couldn't an ISTJ do this type of orchestration? Both have Extraverted Thinking (Te).

Edit: Elrond closer to INTP? Impenetrable fortress... also played an equal role in planning Aragorn's conquest. Lives in dreamland. Ti-dom?

No. I'd say Ni-dom. He's capable of foresight (i.e. concerned with the future), has clear leadership qualities, and as you said is involved in strategy. I'd say INTJ.

The actor striked me as an INTP in all the movies I've seen him in, haven't seen any footage of him in person...

He seems like an INTJ on The Matrix. Very introverted, very cold, very anaytical, and very structured and serious -- wanting to effectively, systematically wipe out any human threats.

K, then what type?

lol

 

[Montresor]

^Good post. I'll address a few points.

First, scorpiomover did make some good points but we can't neglect the fact that he said INTJs have a total lack of respect for others, which isn't true, and it was one basic premise of his argument. We can't call Gandalf INTP just because he respects other people. Actually, that's not a good reason to call anybody an INTP.

Also, he was never truly indecisive about the ring. He was privy to incredibly sensitive information (incredibly sensitive) and he handled it very responsibly. I don't see an INTP doing that. The whole time the ring was in the Shire, Gandalf was gone. What do you think he was doing?? He was canvassing middle earth to rally support, preparing armies, fighting battles - everything he could to steer Sauron's attention towards Gondor and away from the West.

Personally, if anyone with a brain had known of Bilbo's ring, he would have chucked it in the fire right away, seen the writing, and immediately dispatched the ring-bearer to Mount Doom. Gandalf was the one to send Bilbo on his travels in "The Hobbit", which began in the year 2941 of the Third Age. IIRC, the trip took a year, and so he returned with the ring in TA 2942. Bilbo told Gandalf of all his adventures, and was his closest confidante other than Frodo. At this point, Bilbo had only just got the ring, and so was not yet that affected by it, and so had no strong motive to hide it from Gandalf. So Bilbo almost certainly told him of the ring.

No way. This analysis is completely inaccurate. The part where you said "would have immediately dispatched the ring-bearer to mount doom" - dumb as bricks. Sauron would have the ring back by morning tea.

By your math (neglecting another long quote), it took 76 years to plan it out! Every little thing had to fall in place. Every-little-thing. Who was there making the plans every step of the way? Gandalf the GREY.

Also, it wasn't a "near death experience". I believe he truly died in the story. The maiar were kind of like demi-gods in middle earth. He came back with the same personality he had before.

Regarding Elrond, yea he could be Ni-dom in the story (who gives about the type of the actor?), but I'm still going with INTP overall. He played a massive role in planning and orchestrating the assault on Mordor, but he hardly leaves his lair for any reason. His gift of "foresight" could be an analogy for Ni like you said, but that's basically the only argument in favour. Elrond is a pure thinker, what else do you call an INTP besides a pure thinker?

 

[Montresor]

oh oh and to philosophyking - you asked why couldn't Gandalf be ISTJ and still orchestrate the quest.

Probably because ISTJs are Si lead and might be incredibly reluctant to initiate such a world-changing event as this. I could have an easier time seeing Isildur as ISTJ, or Theoden, or Denethor - basically the SJ archetype is "man" in the story. Think about this for a sec would ya? Every culture in middle earth knows about man's weakness - Isildur's bane is not the ring itself, but a metaphor for the weakness that plagues mankind.

Another thought - I wonder if I'm confusing Fi for Ti again and Elrond is more like ISFP? Rivendell is heavily artistic after all. The reason I post this is that it was Elrond who was personally unable to handle the problem himself, and throw Isildur over the edge at mount doom. - why again?

 

[Philosophyking87]

oh oh and to philosophyking - you asked why couldn't Gandalf be ISTJ and still orchestrate the quest.

Probably because ISTJs are Si lead and might be incredibly reluctant to initiate such a world-changing event as this. I could have an easier time seeing Isildur as ISTJ, or Theoden, or Denethor - basically the SJ archetype is "man" in the story. Think about this for a sec would ya? Every culture in middle earth knows about man's weakness - Isildur's bane is not the ring itself, but a metaphor for the weakness that plagues mankind.

My bad. I thought the person I quoted was talking about Aragorn - not Gandalf. I agree: Gandalf the White is definitely strategical (and likely an INTJ).

 

[Bhagavat]

Gandalf the Wizard: INTP?

Who here believes that Gandalf is an INTP? Remember, "A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to." Gandalf is laid back, informal. He's always lost in thought and scarcely displays much emotion. I've heard some type him as an INTJ, but I do not believe there is much evidence to support this claim. Thoughts?

 

[John_Mann]

Re: Gandalf the Wizard: INTP?

Yeah INTP.

 

[Jennywocky]

Re: Gandalf the Wizard: INTP?

Who here believes that Gandalf is an INTP? Remember, "A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to." Gandalf is laid back, informal. He's always lost in thought and scarcely displays much emotion. I've heard some type him as an INTJ, but I do not believe there is much evidence to support this claim. Thoughts?

He's got a bit of traits of both, and it's difficult because he's more than human -- i.e., he has claim to special knowledge that makes him seem to act with conviction at times, when if he did not have that knowledge perhaps he would rationalize more. We can agree that he's introverted, and he's a thinker (vs feeler -- compare him to young Peregrin Took, ha, "throw yourself in the next time and save us the trouble!"), and he's great at making connections in conjunction with logic as an NT. He definitely is irritated by stupidity, in the INT fashion.

It's hard to read his affection for people... obviously he can be gruffly affectionate, especially by the kinds of things he studies. (For example, he loves hobbits; I think they take Gandalf a bit out of himself, as a form of relief; and also he hates presumption and finds the hobbit humility and "normalness" refreshing.) Both INTPs and INTJs can express "feelings" on this level.

I think the INTJ reads come over him seemingly to like to restrain himself so much in the exterior sense. INTJs seem to keep more composure about themselves, INTPs are more likely to play loose and fast on the surface. But there is so much variation on the individual level... I keep flip-flopping as I analyze him.

 

[own8ge]

Re: Gandalf the Wizard: INTP?

I don't believe him to be any type. His personality can't be generalized into 1 specific personality type. Sometimes fictional characters are realistic and they can be accurately typed, Gandalf however, can't. Assumingly he is an INTJ. But if you'd wish him to be an INTP, be my guest. I myself however, as always, see him as an INFJ. Just because I can.

 

[John_Mann]

Re: Gandalf the Wizard: INTP?

Gandalf a J? Look at his clothes and beard! LOL

Perhaps when he became the white, he took a bit of J. Saruman looks like an INTJ.

But he can be an INFP too.

 

[Jennywocky]

Re: Gandalf the Wizard: INTP?

... I myself however, as always, see him as an INFJ. Just because I can.

...Ah, yes.
Of course.

 

[Bhagavat]

Re: Gandalf the Wizard: INTP?

He's got a bit of traits of both, and it's difficult because he's more than human -- i.e., he has claim to special knowledge that makes him seem to act with conviction at times, when if he did not have that knowledge perhaps he would rationalize more. We can agree that he's introverted, and he's a thinker (vs feeler -- compare him to young Peregrin Took, ha, "throw yourself in the next time and save us the trouble!"), and he's great at making connections in conjunction with logic as an NT. He definitely is irritated by stupidity, in the INT fashion.


I think the INTJ reads come over him seemingly to like to restrain himself so much in the exterior sense. INTJs seem to keep more composure about themselves, INTPs are more likely to play loose and fast on the surface. But there is so much variation on the individual level... I keep flip-flopping as I analyze him.

As for your first point, I agree there is a general consensus that Gandalf is an INTx. Gandalf, however, does seem to lose it sometimes, and he certainly does not seem to value his self-image/exterior as does his contemporary, Sauromon, who, on the other hand, is clean-cut and rather elegant in his behavior.

 

[Bhagavat]

Re: Gandalf the Wizard: INTP?

I don't believe him to be any type. His personality can't be generalized into 1 specific personality type. Sometimes fictional characters are realistic and they can be accurately typed, Gandalf however, can't. Assumingly he is an INTJ. But if you'd wish him to be an INTP, be my guest. I myself however, as always, see him as an INFJ. Just because I can.

And your argument?

 

[own8ge]

Re: Gandalf the Wizard: INTP?

And your argument?

He has feels, by which he is obviously guided. (?)

 

[TheScornedReflex]

Re: Gandalf the Wizard: INTP?

Haven't I seen this thread before?!

He is totally an ESFJ .

 

[Bhagavat]

Re: Gandalf the Wizard: INTP?

He has feels, by which he is obviously guided. (?)

Even INTP's have "feels" (our tertiary function is Fe, after all, and an INTP can have a well developed tertiary). However, I see no evidence whatsoever that he is "guided" by his feels. Gandalf often deliberates extensively before action.

 

[TheScornedReflex]

Wait.. Wrong Gandalf thread..


..... Wait. Now it's the right thread..

 

[Bhagavat]

Re: Gandalf the Wizard: INTP?

Oh wow... I've been off the forum too long. This issue, it seems has been covered, but I'm still looking for a stronger argument against Gandalf being an INTP.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Wait.. Wrong Gandolf thread..

Must merge MOAR!!!

[Mention] own8ge [/Mention]own8ge
Derail = bad.

 

[own8ge]

Re: Gandalf the Wizard: INTP?

Oh wow... I've been off the forum too long. This issue, it seems has been covered, but I'm still looking for a stronger argument against Gandalf being an INTP.

Hahaha. As if we really care to argue Gandalf against being an INTP. Nobody cares at all. You are putting all your energy in making these posts asking requests very enthusiastic as if we really want to argue about it, but in reality nobody at all would really want to argue about it. "It doesn't impact our lives. Why care?" Haha. For you, you took the time to type Gandalf. You have actually thought about it. And you want to check whether your judgment is in line with reality. You need some environmental push-back to reward or disregard you. You must make sure your logic is consistent. But infact, you are the only person who actually cares about it. So you are talking really enthusiastic while you are talking to a wall. You are currently spending HOURS of your day speculating if Gandalf is an INTP, just so you can argue this with us, intpf, because you are thinking that we are speculating it also. You are thinking that it bothers us too. And that we actually care about it. That we actually would want to know if our judgment is consistent, but we don't. We don't even want to be bothered by it!
Haha, that was funny.

 

[Montresor]

Re: Gandalf the Wizard: INTP?

Even INTP's have "feels" (our tertiary function is Fe, after all, and an INTP can have a well developed tertiary). However, I see no evidence whatsoever that he is "guided" by his feels. Gandalf often deliberates extensively before action.

Great point!!!!

I could buy INFJ for Gandalf.

The logical thing to do might have been to kill Gollum but somebody kept him alive due to an unexplained intuitive feeling.