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Forum Addicts Anonymous

Ermine

is watching and taking notes
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casually playing guitar in my mental arena
Yeah, I'm finally back! I have some time to post again since I just started my week long Thanksgiving break.

Anyway, I left the forum for a while with the intention of freeing up some extra time, so I could be more engaged in the college life. While I did gain some extra time, most of it went to making scarves. I just finished the 11th scarf. The rest of the time went into my Graphic Design assignments. However, I can say that I pushed myself a bit, and went to a formal dance. :eek: And somehow I actually enjoyed what is supposed to be the bane of the INTPness. But it worked out. And I got to hang out with cool people, and found a jamming buddy who gave me free karate lessons. In short, life has been a growing experience since I left.

I also left with the intention of proving to myself that I could leave this place alone for a while, that I wasn't totally addicted to this forum. While there were a couple weeks I went forum-free, I ended up lurking most of the time. So much for self control... Though I might be able to leave this place alone for a while if I were busy enough.

Just wondering, has anyone else made such an attempt with this forum or some other forum? Any success?
 

Firehazard159

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Just kind of a side note, but relevant to your post: INTP's are *supposed* to get out and experience the world :P Just because social situations are scary / difficult / whatever, doesn't mean they can't be healthy experiences :)

I try to live by, all of life is an opportunity to learn something new. The more opportunity one has, the better off they are, so to speak.
 

flow

Audiophile/Insomniac
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I'm also addicted to the forum.. I don't go post crazy for the most part, but I check the site quite a few times per day.. ummm, so like, you wanna send me one of those scarves? :D

Also, I'm glad you're enjoying college! You need to get out there and meet as many people as you can (this goes for anyone else in college). Don't let the opportunity pass. College is the perfect environment to practice socializing and learn how to get along with people.. you can also easily find people who share similar interests.. So don't stay in your dorm room all the time, find a buddy and get out there!
 

Firehazard159

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Lol, I wanted a scarf too, I felt it would be an inappropriate thing to say, even if she were willing...

I have an aversion to people giving me things, for some reason.
 

Kuu

>>Loading
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The wired
Being too busy actually has provoked extra addiction to this... this haven from the madness of regular people. I click new posts every couple of minutes while my mouth foams and my eyes dart desperately trying to get a fix of fresh ideas to discuss. And I've been on the IRC channel for unhealthy amounts of time lately...

But I can still go away for a while with some will power... I swear. I can leave it anytime. Seriously. :cat:

Unlike that wiki that shall not be linked. It is fucking irresistible :storks:
 

Ermine

is watching and taking notes
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Yeah, I noticed that too. I didn't have much of a problem staying away when I wasn't busy, but when I was busy, I just had to get away and lurk for a few minutes. Horrible study habits...

And as much as I would like to make you all scarves, I'd rather not since it would force at least one of us to reveal our identity and whereabouts. Maybe if I were selling them online though. But I don't think I would. I'd lose interest if it weren't a "labor of love".
 

transformers

Active Member
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Just kind of a side note, but relevant to your post: INTP's are *supposed* to get out and experience the world :P Just because social situations are scary / difficult / whatever, doesn't mean they can't be healthy experiences :)

I try to live by, all of life is an opportunity to learn something new. The more opportunity one has, the better off they are, so to speak.

I agree. Although we resist them, social experiences are generally good for INTP's. We should embrace them instead of fearing them, because no matter what happens, we will usually come out with a better understanding of ourselves and of the world.

OP, welcome back, and yeah i'm addicted too *waves FAA flag* I can't go ten minutes without refreshing the new posts page.
 

Sugarpop

accepts advice on his English
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I confess that this forum is one of the many resources I use to procrastinate my life away. Maybe I should limit attendance to once a week or something?

How do you make the scarves?

'Scarves' is a funny word. Sounds like a type of wound. I also like the word 'språk'.

Språååååååk!
 

Waterstiller

... runs deep
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over teh rainbow
Whenever I come back to this place I sort of binge. But then I purge.
 

Inappropriate Behavior

is peeing on the carpet
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My name is Inappropriate Behavior and I'm an INTP forumaholic.

Although I guess if I were to join a 12 step program, I can't bloody well do it here huh?

*glads to see the weasel back!*
 

RubberDucky451

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Are you doing an arts new media major? Welcome back :D
 

Dormouse

Mean can be funny
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I'm an addict... Maybe I should try eschewing this place once a month or something, I might actually get stuff done.

And welcome back! :D
 

Beat Mango

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Good to have you back.

I'm addictive by nature, so I'm always pushing and pulling with that I become attached to. I've done what you did, abstained from various sites, with Myspace, Facebook, a rugby league forum, probably others... and always come back feeling very refreshed. the first day or two is usually hard, after that it gets very easy and I get a sense of freedom, very similar to what you described, and excitement from new interests. I should probably do the same thing with this form at some point - I am getting a bit attached.
 

Scourgexlvii

Kind of like Batman... but completely different
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I'm not addicted! I kicked the stuff, I swear!

*cut to me trying to hook up my computer to myself intravenously*

Alright fine, but I could quit whenever I want...
 

walfin

Democrazy
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The best way for me to get away from this forum is to go on holiday and not use the computer.

Once I'm back, I'm at it again :slashnew:
 

Ermine

is watching and taking notes
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Ironic. I'm using my holiday break to get my INTP-fix, and attempting to abstain from the forum when I'm back in school. Maybe I will have the self control to not even lurk then. I probably ought to identify my withdrawal symptoms while I'm at it.

This is kind of sad. There's no way I would do drugs, mainly to avoid the addiction. Yet I let myself get addicted to a forum, which isn't as powerful as a drug. But I like this place and the side effects aren't too bad... Oh great. Now I'm rationalizing.
/ramble
 

Fedayeen

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I come and go depending on how bored I am, haven't been here in awhile though
 

Nicholas A. A. E.

formerly of the Basque-lands
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This forum is a little problematic for me. I get fixated on any forum I'm signed up for. I have to read (or at least glance at) every single new post. If the forum is too large to make this practical, I'll read everything in a well-defined subset of the larger forum (as, one particular subforum).

Problem is, this forum is on the "very-active" side of being able to read every post. So we'll see where this goes.
 

420MuNkEy

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This thread title is disturbing to me as it's hinting to the efficacy of a 12-step program. :mad:

I do realize that this is not what's intended though, so, yes, I am indeed addicted to forums. I am also addicted to google, wiki, Adderall, and breathing. I don't see anything wrong with any of those.
 

Da Blob

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INTPians are always asking: "Where did the Twelve Steps come from?" In the last analysis, perhaps nobody knows. Yet some of the events which led to their formulation are as clear to me as though they took place yesterday.

So far as people were concerned, the main channels of inspiration for our Steps were three in number -- the MBTI Groups, Dr. William D. Silkworth of Towns Hospital and the famed psychologist, William James, called by some the father of modern psychology. The story of how these streams of influence were brought together and how they led to the writing of our Twelve Steps is exciting and in spots downright incredible.

Many of us will remember the MBTI Groups as a modern evangelical movement which flourished in the 1990's and early 2000's. The INTP Groups of that day threw heavy emphasis on personal work, one member with another. The INTPian's Twelfth Step had its origin in that vital practice. The moral backbone of the "O.P." was absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness and absolute love. They also practiced a type of confession, which they called "sharing"; the making of amends for harms done they called "restitution." They believed deeply in their "quiet time," a meditation practiced by groups and individuals alike, in which the guidance of God or whatever was sought for every detail of living, great or small.

These basic ideas were not new; they could have been found elsewhere. But the saving thing for us first addicts who contacted the INTPian Groupers was that they laid great stress on these particular principles. And fortunate for us was the fact that the Groupers took special pains not to interfere with one's personal religious views. Their society, like ours later on, saw the need to be strictly non-denominational.

In the late summer of 2004, my well-loved alcoholic friend and schoolmate "Ebbie" had fallen in with these good folks and had promptly sobered up. Being an alcoholic, and rather on the obstinate side, he hadn't been able to "buy" all the INTPian Group ideas and attitudes. Nevertheless, he was moved by their deep sincerity and felt mighty grateful for the fact that their ministrations had, for the time being, lifted his obsession to drink.

When he arrived in New York in the late fall of 2004, Ebbie thought at once of me. On a bleak November day he rang up. Soon he was looking at me across our kitchen table at 182 Clinton Street, Brooklyn, New York. As I remember that conversation, he constantly used phrases like these: "I found I couldn't run my own life;" "I had to get honest with myself and somebody else;" "I had to make restitution for the damage I had done;" "I had to pray to God for guidance and strength, even though I wasn't sure there was any God;" "And after I'd tried hard to do these things I found that my craving for "The Forum" left." Then over and over Ebbie would say something like this: "Bill, it isn't a bit like being on the water wagon. You don't fight the desire to post -- you get released from it. I never had such a feeling before."

Such was the sum of what Ebbie had extracted from his INTPian Group friends and had transmitted to me that day. While these simple ideas were not new, they certainly hit me like tons of brick. Today we understand just why that was . . . one forum junkie was talking to another as no one else can.

Two or three weeks later, December 11th to be exact, I staggered into the Charles B. Towns Hospital, that famous drying-out emporium on Central Park West, New York City. I'd been there before, so I knew and already loved the doctor in charge -- Dr. Silkworth. It was he who was soon to contribute a very great idea without which "We" could never had succeeded. For years he had been proclaiming the internet was an illness, an obsession of the mind coupled with an allergy of the body. By now I knew this meant me. I also understood what a fatal combination these twin ogres could be. Of course, I'd once hoped to be among the small percentage of victims who now and then escape their vengeance. But this outside hope was now gone. I was about to hit bottom. That verdict of science -- the obsession that condemned me to post and the allergy that condemned me to die -- was about to do the trick. That's where the medical science, personified by this benign little doctor, began to fit it in. Held in the hands of one addict talking to the next, this double-edged truth was a sledgehammer which could shatter the tough intellectual 's ego at depth and lay him wide open to the grace of God.

In my case it was of course Dr. Silkworth who swung the sledge while my friend Ebbie carried to me the spiritual principles and the grace which brought on my sudden spiritual awakening at the hospital three days later. I immediately knew that I was a free man. And with this astonishing experience came a feeling of wonderful certainty that great numbers of INTPians might one day enjoy the priceless gift which had been bestowed upon me.

At this point a third stream of influence entered my life through the pages of William James' book, "Varieties of Religious Experience." Somebody had brought it to my hospital room. Following my sudden experience, Dr. Silkworth had taken great pains to convince me that I was not hallucinated. But William James did even more. Not only, he said, could spiritual experiences make people saner, they could transform men and women so that they could do, feel and believe what had hitherto been impossible to them. It mattered little whether these awakenings were sudden or gradual, their variety could be almost infinite. But the biggest payoff of that noted book was this: in most of the cases described, those who had been transformed were hopeless people. In some controlling area of their lives they had met absolute defeat. Well, that was me all right. In complete defeat, with no hope or faith whatever, I had made an appeal to a Higher Power. I had taken Step One of today's INTPian recovery program -- "admitted we were powerless over internet use, that our lives had become unmanageable." I'd also taken Step Three -- "made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to God as we understood him." Thus was I set free. It was just as simple, yet just as mysterious, as that.
 

420MuNkEy

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I really hope that last post was a joke, as it's no mystery where the 12 step system came from. Use google, it's useful...
 

Cavallier

Oh damn.
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You're back!

I tried to a break for a bit around the same time you did. Made it three days but I managed to limit myself to only a few posts a day. I was too busy at work and I thought that I could cut in a bit more sleeping time if I cut out the forum but then I realized that this place actually helps keep my sane by giving me something to analyze that has nothing to do with the rest of my life.

You crochet scarves and I knit scarves! We should have a scarf trade. :D
 

Ashenstar

I'm your chauffeur with high
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INTP forum WHY CAN'T I QUIT YOU!!!??

*sobs as she reaches for the bottle of red wine in her cupboard*
 

echoplex

Happen.
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This is the only one I've ever really liked. There's just something about that New Post smell. *inhale* I'm not even much of a forum or internet socializing kind of person. It's not something I generally like, but I like it here.
 

Da Blob

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I really hope that last post was a joke, as it's no mystery where the 12 step system came from. Use google, it's useful...

Yes, it was a joke.

As a Substance Abuse Counselor, I am quite familiar with the history of Bill W. and the A.A. That being said the "Twelve Step" method can be used to solve a great range of personal problems, not just addictions...
 

420MuNkEy

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Yes, it was a joke.

As a Substance Abuse Counselor, I am quite familiar with the history of Bill W. and the A.A. That being said the "Twelve Step" method can be used to solve a great range of personal problems, not just addictions...
I'm going to use AA as an example of the efficacy of the 12 step method...

AA doesn't publish it's figures (success rates, etc). According to an internal survey done in 1989 (yea, I know, it's old, but I couldn't find more recent numbers), about half those coming to AA for the first time remain less than three months, and after 12 months, AA's success rate is averaged at 5%. The rate of people quitting on their own without AA is 5%. Add this on top of the fact that such programs require yourself to submit to a 'higher power' (essentially forcing religion on you), and there really seems to be nothing good about them. If people like the group setting and religious views, they might feel comfortable there, but it certainly isn't any more effective than quitting on your own.
 

Kidege

is a ze
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Wb 'mine.
 

Da Blob

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I'm going to use AA as an example of the efficacy of the 12 step method...

AA doesn't publish it's figures (success rates, etc). According to an internal survey done in 1989 (yea, I know, it's old, but I couldn't find more recent numbers), about half those coming to AA for the first time remain less than three months, and after 12 months, AA's success rate is averaged at 5%. The rate of people quitting on their own without AA is 5%. Add this on top of the fact that such programs require yourself to submit to a 'higher power' (essentially forcing religion on you), and there really seems to be nothing good about them. If people like the group setting and religious views, they might feel comfortable there, but it certainly isn't any more effective than quitting on your own.

The problem with any statistics derived from the AA or other 12 Step programs, is that, at least here in the United States, many who attend AA meetings are doing it because of a court order as a part of their sentencing. It is "attend the meetings or go to jail", so a great number of those who attend meetings are there not to recover, but simply to avoid worse 'punishment', so to speak. In those countries where attendance at the AA meetings is completely voluntary, I suspect the success rates are much higher..... (the figures I have are 35-40% sobriety which is in line with the placebo effect)
BTW - a little known and ignored fact. The success rate of Faith-based drug recovery programs is twice that of "scientifically' based programs - yet it is still the scientifically based programs that get all the government funding due to the separation of Church and State. In fact several of the government-funded programs are complete rip-offs with no real success rate at all, but the staffs of those programs fabricate success to keep their incomes flowing...

EDIT: It is a fact that most people in the general population can have Faith and Belief in God, but have a great deal of difficulty applying faith and belief towards psychologists and their god of "Science"...
 

420MuNkEy

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The problem with any statistics derived from the AA or other 12 Step programs, is that, at least here in the United States, many who attend AA meetings are doing it because of a court order as a part of their sentencing. It is "attend the meetings or go to jail", so a great number of those who attend meetings are there not to recover, but simply to avoid worse 'punishment', so to speak. In those countries where attendance at the AA meetings is completely voluntary, I suspect the success rates are much higher..... (the figures I have are 35-40% sobriety which is in line with the placebo effect)
BTW - a little known and ignored fact. The success rate of Faith-based drug recovery programs is twice that of "scientifically' based programs - yet it is still the scientifically based programs that get all the government funding due to the separation of Church and State. In fact several of the government-funded programs are complete rip-offs with no real success rate at all, but the staffs of those programs fabricate success to keep their incomes flowing...

EDIT: It is a fact that most people in the general population can have Faith and Belief in God, but have a great deal of difficulty applying faith and belief towards psychologists and their god of "Science"...
Secular does not mean scientific....:confused:
The only scientific based treatment I can think of is a drug called Naltrexone which may or may not be used while getting treatment from an organization (From what I've heard, AA doesn't like the drug).

Okay, so you're claiming that people get forced to go to AA by the US courts and then claim that scientifically based programs (these don't really exist btw) are government funded??? I am having a hard time seeing past the fact that you are trying to defend religion by thinking that everything that's not religion is science.
 

Tyria

Ryuusa bakuryuu
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Antabuse (disulfram) is also used in the treatment of alcoholism.

I would say that I miss not being able to be here and to post/read. One of many lessons that I have learned recently.
 

Da Blob

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Secular does not mean scientific....:confused:
The only scientific based treatment I can think of is a drug called Naltrexone which may or may not be used while getting treatment from an organization (From what I've heard, AA doesn't like the drug).

Okay, so you're claiming that people get forced to go to AA by the US courts and then claim that scientifically based programs (these don't really exist btw) are government funded??? I am having a hard time seeing past the fact that you are trying to defend religion by thinking that everything that's not religion is science.

Unfortunately, most addicts do not seek therapy, voluntarily. They are Forced by law enforcement or family ultimatums to seek help from A.A. or some other nonprofit organization. Because of the expense of other treatment programs, clients who willing to pay for treatment have better attitudes towards the programs...
Yeah, the sad fact is that the best drug recovery programs have an element of Spirituality so they can not get funding from the government (for example, Teen Challenge has an 87% recovery rate amongst Heroin Addicts). Meanwhile the PhDs that run the academically-oriented, federally-funded recovery programs with little success are quite willing to sacrifice millions of addicts on their altars of secularism to prove the 'validity' of their philosophy/religion...

BTW - It does really suck, but yes, in some states the courts are burdening nonprofit organizations with the costs of providing free treatment. I guess the separation of Church and State only works in one direction...
 

420MuNkEy

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Unfortunately, most addicts do not seek therapy, voluntarily. They are Forced by law enforcement or family ultimatums to seek help from A.A. or some other nonprofit organization. Because of the expense of other treatment programs, clients who willing to pay for treatment have better attitudes towards the programs...
Yeah, the sad fact is that the best drug recovery programs have an element of Spirituality so they can not get funding from the government (for example, Teen Challenge has an 87% recovery rate amongst Heroin Addicts). Meanwhile the PhDs that run the academically-oriented, federally-funded recovery programs with little success are quite willing to sacrifice millions of addicts on their altars of secularism to prove the 'validity' of their philosophy/religion...

BTW - It does really suck, but yes, in some states the courts are burdening nonprofit organizations with the costs of providing free treatment. I guess the separation of Church and State only works in one direction...
Addicts do not seek treatment voluntarily and do not accept it when forced on them. The federally funded PhD-run-drug-trial-esque treatment programs you seem think there are do not exist. There are other non-spiritual programs that do exist that don't shove religion down the throat of the person seeking treatment (such as S.O.S).

I get it. You have a hardon for religion. Don't let that blind your rationality though. Secular does not mean scientific.
 

Da Blob

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Addicts do not seek treatment voluntarily and do not accept it when forced on them. The federally funded PhD-run-drug-trial-esque treatment programs you seem think there are do not exist. There are other non-spiritual programs that do exist that don't shove religion down the throat of the person seeking treatment (such as S.O.S).

I get it. You have a hardon for religion. Don't let that blind your rationality though. Secular does not mean scientific.

Actually, in the treatment profession - secular does pretty much equal scientific. The push by the Ivory Tower to dominate the multi-dollar industry has made it difficult to meet academically derived standards. Not only must programs be "research-derived empirically-based therapy" (check out the NIDA or SAMHSA sites), but drug counselors who have perhaps led hundred of addicts to sobriety in spiritual programs, may lack the academic credentials to get employment in most if not all states which requires all substance - abuse counselors to be certified and licensed by the state.

The numbers are hard to find, especially with every program inflating success rates, but there was a congressional hearing on the matter; faith-based programs reported a 66-95% success rate at the hearing, the secular programs best result was 25%... Again lives are being sacrificed for academic ideals... I worked in a secular program, I am familiar with the process. The official program was completely secular, but all the clients were heavily "motivated" to attend faith-based programs "on their own time"... The secular program took all the credit and did not mention the fact that the clients were exposed to another treatment modality, so all the statistics concerning the efficiency of the program were pretty much bogus - but they got their funding in any event...
 

Claverhouse

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A Triumph

INTPians are always asking: "Where did the Twelve Steps come from?" In the last analysis, perhaps nobody knows. Yet some of the events which led to their formulation are as clear to me as though they took place yesterday...

etc..


I rarely praise; but that's awfully good.





Claverhouse :phear:
 

420MuNkEy

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Actually, in the treatment profession - secular does pretty much equal scientific. The push by the Ivory Tower to dominate the multi-dollar industry has made it difficult to meet academically derived standards. Not only must programs be "research-derived empirically-based therapy" (check out the NIDA or SAMHSA sites), but drug counselors who have perhaps led hundred of addicts to sobriety in spiritual programs, may lack the academic credentials to get employment in most if not all states which requires all substance - abuse counselors to be certified and licensed by the state.

The numbers are hard to find, especially with every program inflating success rates, but there was a congressional hearing on the matter; faith-based programs reported a 66-95% success rate at the hearing, the secular programs best result was 25%... Again lives are being sacrificed for academic ideals... I worked in a secular program, I am familiar with the process. The official program was completely secular, but all the clients were heavily "motivated" to attend faith-based programs "on their own time"... The secular program took all the credit and did not mention the fact that the clients were exposed to another treatment modality, so all the statistics concerning the efficiency of the program were pretty much bogus - but they got their funding in any event...
You make it sound like any method of treatment supported by evidence is a clinical trial that harms people or is somehow less effective, and this is not the case. The 'faith based treatment' results aren't based on anything, they could have just as easily reported 99% or 1%, the fact remains is that they are made-up fictional numbers that have no meaning. If it worked, why wouldn't they record statistics to show that it works?

Since you seem to be so quick to attack a view that deals with facts, I suggest you read this article

If the clients decided to drink green tea, that would not render the statistics false. Religion comforts the religious, so I don't see any problem with people who are already religious seeking out religious help as well as clinical help. However, for any non-religious person, there is no benefit from getting help with the 12-step program (as it is inherently religious) and are much better suited for programs that are shown to actually work regardless of beliefs. This is especially important in countries like the UK and South Korea where the percentage of the population that's atheist/non-religious is ~40%
 

Da Blob

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Alas, i have been caught out... But then I never claimed it was original... BTW that is a good site for history of the AA 'cult', I find the History of the Oxford Group and its founder, Frank Buchman to be fascinating. Buchman was a behind the scenes character that may have actually been tremendously influential in the course of history. There may be some parallel universes where he took John D. R. up on his offer. Buchman's major error seems to have been emulation of one too many of the Freudian concepts popular in his era....

The original AA doctrine is an interesting mix of concepts from Freud, William James and the Sermon on the Mount...
 

Da Blob

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You make it sound like any method of treatment supported by evidence is a clinical trial that harms people or is somehow less effective, and this is not the case. The 'faith based treatment' results aren't based on anything, they could have just as easily reported 99% or 1%, the fact remains is that they are made-up fictional numbers that have no meaning. If it worked, why wouldn't they record statistics to show that it works?

Since you seem to be so quick to attack a view that deals with facts, I suggest you read this article

If the clients decided to drink green tea, that would not render the statistics false. Religion comforts the religious, so I don't see any problem with people who are already religious seeking out religious help as well as clinical help. However, for any non-religious person, there is no benefit from getting help with the 12-step program (as it is inherently religious) and are much better suited for programs that are shown to actually work regardless of beliefs. This is especially important in countries like the UK and South Korea where the percentage of the population that's atheist/non-religious is ~40%
Actually the faith-based numbers I quoted are statistically documented... Your own attitude (perhaps?) reflects the difficulty of the challenge facing the faith-based programs of this country. Intellectuals do not want to believe that faith-based programs work better than academic programs. It would cause them to have to shift their own world-views. The article you referenced was written by an NIDA cronie with a PhD at Duke University whose employment may depend on the validity of academic methods. The article was not sincere. When one speaks of recovery, it is necessary to include a component of time in one's analysis - such as 40% drug-free after six months, or after a year, or whatever...
Again, there is quite a 'war' going on between academically-oriented "mental health professionals' who usually have no personal experience with addiction and the typical drug abuse counselor that most often was an addict or alcoholic their own selves at a point in their pasts. The academic types say that the subjectivity of former addicts is of no value - the objective answers are in their own books - not in actual human lives...

It is interesting to note that of the 13 people appointed to Obama's own Faith-based initiative program four were academic statisticians ... The people of faith are not really represented per se...
 

Claverhouse

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420MuNkEy

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Actually the faith-based numbers I quoted are statistically documented... Your own attitude (perhaps?) reflects the difficulty of the challenge facing the faith-based programs of this country. Intellectuals do not want to believe that faith-based programs work better than academic programs. It would cause them to have to shift their own world-views. The article you referenced was written by an NIDA cronie with a PhD at Duke University whose employment may depend on the validity of academic methods. The article was not sincere. When one speaks of recovery, it is necessary to include a component of time in one's analysis - such as 40% drug-free after six months, or after a year, or whatever...
Again, there is quite a 'war' going on between academically-oriented "mental health professionals' who usually have no personal experience with addiction and the typical drug abuse counselor that most often was an addict or alcoholic their own selves at a point in their pasts. The academic types say that the subjectivity of former addicts is of no value - the objective answers are in their own books - not in actual human lives...

It is interesting to note that of the 13 people appointed to Obama's own Faith-based initiative program four were academic statisticians ... The people of faith are not really represented per se...
Okay, if those statistics are documented....where?

Of course it was written by PhD, hell the paper is even titled "Science-Based Views of Drug Addiction and Its Treatment" and it was published in an accredited scientific journal. If you're going to dismiss empirical fact because it is fact, then I don't really see any possible way to convince you. :storks:
 

Da Blob

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Okay, if those statistics are documented....where?

Of course it was written by PhD, hell the paper is even titled "Science-Based Views of Drug Addiction and Its Treatment" and it was published in an accredited scientific journal. If you're going to dismiss empirical fact because it is fact, then I don't really see any possible way to convince you. :storks:

Well, if you actually care you can start here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_Challenge

What I am amazed by is the number of people posting hateful comments on the net concerning Teen Challenge and other faith based programs...(?) TC is in the business of saving lives, not destroying them... Yet there is a segment of the population willing to invest time and energy in the destruction of what is, in most cases, a wonderful reputation for rebuilding destroyed lives. Lives that no one else seems to care about.
It reinforces a previous comment I made - those critics of Teen Challenge are apparently quite willing to sacrifice those lives recovered by the efforts of Teen Challenge - merely to support their own world views...

So by your standards anyone with a PhD who publishes in a journal, endorsed by his friends and co-workers, is establishing scientific fact and not merely generating politically-correct propaganda...?
 

Madoness

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Well, if you actually care you can start here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_Challenge

What I am amazed by is the number of people posting hateful comments on the net concerning Teen Challenge and other faith based programs...(?) TC is in the business of saving lives, not destroying them... Yet there is a segment of the population willing to invest time and energy in the destruction of what is, in most cases, a wonderful reputation for rebuilding destroyed lives. Lives that no one else seems to care about.
It reinforces a previous comment I made - those critics of Teen Challenge are apparently quite willing to sacrifice those lives recovered by the efforts of Teen Challenge - merely to support their own world views...

So by your standards anyone with a PhD who publishes in a journal, endorsed by his friends and co-workers, is establishing scientific fact and not merely generating politically-correct propaganda...?

Evangelical treatment program gets $2.4 million from state
Public funding of Minnesota Teen Challenge raises constitutional questions


Da Blob said:
The success rate of Faith-based drug recovery programs is twice that of "scientifically' based programs - yet it is still the scientifically based programs that get all the government funding due to the separation of Church and State.

Teen Challenge: Your tax dollars, paying for institutionalised abuse

Anti-Gay Teen Boot Camp Asks Bush for $500,000
January 3, 2009 by James Hipps

The Official Teen Challenge Student Handbook instructs students to “conduct themselves in a manner pleasing to God” and strictly forbids any “homosexual behavior”, as being gay, along with addiction, is a sin. Teen Challenge also speaks out against anyone who celebrates Halloween. The group claims, “Halloween is a day set up totally for Satan. The more people who go out dressed as demons, ghost, witches and goblins, the more glory Satan receives.”
Those youths who are entered into the program, but won’t adhere to it, are deprived food until they come around.

Go figure... Maybe there are reasons why there are not so praising comments about that program.
 

Da Blob

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from linked article...
“The program services that are funded through the government are non-religious in nature, and while we do offer religious programming, it is not funded by government dollars and clients voluntarily choose to participate,” he said.

“It is important to note that a number of studies suggest that spirituality can play an important part of the recovery process for many people, and therefore most treatment programs have some sort of spirituality component to them.”


Again the hue and cry of those who hate God is loud. These who want to shut down all faith-based organizations do not seem to express the least bit of concern for the victims of society that benefit greatly from these NGOs...

It is sad thought that, simply by playing smoke and mirrors with paperwork, that the intent of laws can be circumvented. However, this is a common practice in America, not limited to NGOs. The problem is with such a policy of "looking the other way" is that the non-profits are solving social problems that the government does not have to solve as long as the non-profits are funded. If all the faith-based nonprofit charities and other organizations would shut their doors and go on strike - perhaps, the benefits they provide to society would finally be acknowledged by their critics...
 

Toad

True King of Mushroomland!!!
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I was thinking about becoming a troll to get myself banned.
 

Anling

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I occasionally avoid the computer so that I will do other things. But then when I come back I've missed everything and there's too many posts to go through. I don't know that it works very well, though.
 

sagewolf

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I kind of phase in and out of addiction. For the past few weeks I've been on here for about 2-2.5 hours a day; now I have less of an urge to visit, and if I weren't bored on my lunch break, I probably wouldn't be here at all.

Unlike that wiki that shall not be linked. It is fucking irresistible :storks:

You mean this one? [/evil]
 

Thread Killer

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I am currently trying. I find internet forums can be a way to have some more intimate social stimulation, but I find them to be confining at the same time and potentially addictive. So yes. I am currently trying to break an addiction which is an utter nuisance on so many levels. Hence why I am posting here (also to give my siggy a little promo by me actually showing my face here).

I have never been THAT into a web forum until this year and it really is a tough pain in the arse. I really do not think people are meant to sit all day long being perched on a tiny plot of cyber space, hence a web forum. It's really unhealthy, I think and find. I tend to lose so much touch with myself, hence why I enjoy being a loner.
 
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