Emotions...

[Ogion]

After reading a lot about emotions and our handling of them, i'd like to ask a question. For in part i see different statements on that topic from you, and because i myself think i am on a different position here.

I think the most common statements on the wide topic of emotions are, that most of you are feeling pretty bad most of the time. Like in depression, sadness, anger and such. Espeacially loveofreason seems to be in such a longterm-condition (if i may say so), thats what i gather reading the Moods-thread and the (now somewhat older) Emotional_Latency-Thread. but a lot of other posters seem to respond to that in a confirming manner. (And i do can understand most of the said reasons for that, cognitively).

Now, to make a new topic out of it, i wil describe my emotional state:
Although i do have emotions, they never rise to a certain level of intensity. What i mean by that is, that my emotions are almost always just some light waves, some light breeze touching me, but they never get sos trong as to move me, staying in that metaphor. And i did have some moments when emotions and emotional intensity was appropriate (We always had house pets and animals. Horses, cats, for sometime goats...) Now in my lifespan quite a few of them died. And although i think i have a good relationship to all our animals, and i cherish them, i never felt overwhelmed by sadness. I never felt carried away by emotions. For the first to second or so i am really sad, and then the emotions grip on me fades away. Well, if i really search it, for example through imagining how it must have been for the animals (one of our horses died in a rift after falling into it and by trying to escape hurt itself and exhausted itself; that was in the night, and the next day we came, she was already dead), then i can get really sad. But only while actively searching for it. When my attention goes elsewhere, the emotion fades and only comes again if i search again.

So my question is, wether anybody else feels that way, or if i am different there. And also (this is actually directed at me, but perhaps some answers can lead to new insights for me) i am often wondering, asking myself, if my emotions are just 'flatter' than anyone elses, or if i am subconsciously trying (and succeeding) to keep them out of sight, not to let them come to my attention. Because i know, that when i would give myself into the sadness (like described above), i could really fall into a whole there. Because i am (or could be) very empathic, and perhaps the suffering of others (actually anybodys suffering, the whole worlds suffering) would take me down. I don't know, i suppose i had to try it out, but i think i fear trying it out.
So is the depression, the negative moods some of you describe actually the same as what i can glimpse in me? Am i just trying not to perceive all of this?
I know, i probably should live with Buddhist monks for some 20 years...

On the other hand however, the side of joy, enthusiasm and other strong emotions, i don't actually think they are there. I mean, i can have fun, i can laugh, and so on, but i am never enthusiastic about it. My grandma sometimes asks me if i am thankful (after getting a present or something), because she seem to not be able to read it from my face. I always think to thank someone is superflous. But obviously i am different ther than others. Others seem to feel strong emotions when someone gives them a present (i don't mean some birthday present for five Dollar, i mean a more important present, or help, or whatever, i think you get it) and out of their heart thank that person. I just don't feel strong emotions then. I of course say thank you, but it seems to me to be so generic. My grandma always thought i couldn't appreciate things, since i never showed strong emotions. I explained once to her, that i do appreciate, but just not emotionally (or at least not outwardly emotionally).

So, i am in hope of interesting views on that topic, and i don't expect my question to be answered today. I think that is probably something to be investigated for a long time.

Ogion

I hope i did not write complete nonsense from your point of view
(And i hope i did not write so much typos, but i can't reread the post, since i probably would rephrase the whole thing^)

 

[Dissident]

I know what you describe. As I said in the moods thread, Im even tempered, but not because Im emotionally healthy, well adjusted, etc; but because things dont seem to reach me. I thought this would be the rule among INTPs (we are the detached ones, arent we?), but maybe it depends on how developed the lower F function is. LoR, for example, is much older than us (no effense intended ), its to be expected that she has developed it more so her emotions are more into play than ours, but still immature compared to an F type, which would explain the problems it causes her (proably it is more dramatic in us than in other T types because we are Is as well)
It would help to know (maybe she said it, I dont remember) if it was always like this or she was detached like us when she was our age.

Maybe what some people learn about their feelings and emotions in their 20s, we will learn in our 40s (a.k.a., we are emotionally retarded). Our feeling function may be so weak that it even looks like its not there, later on it would appear and cause trouble because we dont know how to deal with it, and if we are lucky will reach a normal emotional functionality later on.

Just a theory.

 

[Ermine]

That's exactly how I am. I'm one of the most even tempered people I know because there's nothing to even out. Hardly any emotion other than my default melancholy.

 

[Ogion]

Well, that is at least two people 'feeling' the same as i do, that's reassuring

Interesting theory, Dissident, although probably only falsifiable by waiting some 20 years... (Or by getting description of people already with some development there)

Ogion

 

[Jesin]

Yup, that's me. Unlike Fernando, however, I've somehow managed to switch my default from melancholy to a slight happiness, so instead of being just below neutral most of the time, I'm constantly drifting along just above neutral.

 

[Ogion]

Well, clever you (Actually, it is quite the same with me, since for the time being i can control my day, so the last three weeks or so, since the end of my current academic term, i spent say 90% of the time indoors, not having to speak to people unless i decide to...Above i am just wondering if this is in the long run a healthy state...)

Ogion

 

[fullerene]

fantastic thread idea.

What you describe is, quite frankly, all of my natural inclinations. The only major difference is that I've discovered that there is a breaking point, and it can be ugly when it happens (although you still aren't forced to let anyone else in on it, it certainly helps). The same kind of goes with strong joy... my brother values intensity of feelings more than anything else, and he constantly tries to get me excited about everything (freaking annoying!). The problem is sounding excited about it yourself won't make me mirror the emotion, and if i dont care because your stimulus isn't strong enough then pumping more of a weak stimulus won't change anything. If you had an emotional stimulus unit (esu) you couldn't just add 5 esu and 5 esu to get 10 esu. All you end up with is 2 sets of 5 esu, which makes you twice as confused when the people around you react to both of them.

I think the world runs on mostly weak emotional stimuli... which is ironic, because pushing for stronger stimuli is what people throw much of their energy into. It's not that people are finding stronger emotional stimuli... it's just that they get more excited/sad/happy by what they have.

I think it's our natural push towards rational everything that makes us, in our center, not respond to the stuff that's not strong enough to draw a response. I don't think we're as easy to deceive ourselves with stuff like that, and combined with weak feelings already that just compounds the "problem" (which of course may not be a problem at all).

I would really just say wait it out and don't try to fake emotional enthusiasm because it looks like something's wrong with you. Eventually you'll hit that breaking point and feel the power of extreme sadness or depression... and if someone's there who genuinely cares and helps you out, you'll feel enthusiastic joy as well. That's at least my take on the subject.

Coincidentally, sociconics places the centerpiece of our thinking (introverted intuition in their terms) as a leading function (the thing you do naturally, without effort) and introverted sensing (the thing that tunes us into feeling emotional states internally) as a role function (the thing you can do, but it takes effort and doesn't come naturally. It's also much weaker than the leading function, even when energy is being put into making it work). The funny thing is that (for some reason that I don't understand/haven't found yet) the theory says that the leading function and the role function can never be active, regardless of personality type, at the same time. So essentially you have to stop thinking, at least in the way we always do (since logic is a part of 'thought' too, and it separates logic and intuition, I don't think you have to shut off thinking completely... just the introverted intuitive part of it, which is different than both introversion and intuition in mbti definitions ) to experience your own emotions to the fullest that you can. Since it takes energy, though, you're unlikely to do it unless you're alone and without much distraction. I actually think the only time I've ever felt emotions to their fullest was in the shower, when my problems couldn't be solved intellectually. When I realized this and gave up thinking, realization of how helpless i am when something doesn't bend to the mind set in, and then i was overwhelmed by the emotions. I think this is what you experienced when actively reflecting on your horses.

The thing is... if the general bad moods of people are of the same mold, then there're two reasons I can think of that would cause it. The first is that their stimuli might not be strong, and they recognize them as general bad moods because when they type on a forum, well, they're typing on a forum... nothing else is going on, they're probably not thinking very hard (at least I'm not when I'm here), and like any intp they're at their sharpest in that situation. The second is that they have very strong reasons to be sad about as well, and either choose not to focus on them at the moment they write or haven't realized quite how serious they are yet. Again, that's just speculation... but those are the two situations that I was in when I felt the same way they sound like they do here, and I haven't seen any anomolies that point in any other direction. Of course, that's now reading into other people's moods... which I'm very, very bad at... so I could just be way off on that part.

Hope that helps

 

[Ogion]

Wow, cryptonia, that was quite some post. I'll try to answer to every bit of it, you just deserve that

Yeah, i think i can feel deep inside, that there may come a 'beaking point', but that requires strong emotions, really strong ones, like in being in a very stressful or emotional situation (which i probably, obviously never were in).
What you describe with your brither may be something similar to what my grandma tried. I mean, it is a bit strange, because i think she isn't all that emotional herself (although she most probably is another type than me. introverted most certainly, on the other ones i am not so sure), but she probably thought, that most other people are emotional, so she checked wether i was one of them. (It was kinda educational too, trying to teach me how to thank people). Luckily she quickly accepted, that i just don't express feelings.

Your stimuli-theory seems to be quite capable. You can add some threshold values in esu. Spontaneously i'd add two: One for the stimuli to generate a emotional response. That would be the lower threshold, which seems to be quite low for many people, but for us it is higher, so that we don't get emotional about normal stuff. And then there is the (much?) higher threshold of the 'emotional breaking point'.
Another image for your esu could be electrical networks. When you chain the power sources in a paralell circuit, then the intensity (now in esu, as intensity of emotions) won't increase. Just the amount of flow is increased (the number of emotion-triggering events?). So just by adding new sources of (the same low) intensity you won't get nearer to some threshold.
Ok, hm, i don't know if the analogy is all that good, but i think you get my point.

Well, i am not fully clear about wether i want to get to the breaking point someday or not (and, at least in physical nearness, there is noone fitting your description...).

Yes, i got that from socionics as well, although your explanation was better.
And i think that the description, that you have to basically shut your thinking off, while being (very) emotional, is quite true. It just makes sense, doesn't it? The two are sitting in different parts of the brain, and the emotions are preprogrammed trigger for actions, right?

Hm, the last part i can't really answer well, since i am not in these bad moods.
But i am interested in what the ones will answer to that.

Ogion

 

[fullerene]

aww thanks... that's sweet.

I was gonna let people in bad moods talk first, but I'm away for the weekend and there's no way I'm remembering this til I get back.

I read also about our role function, the introverted sensing that lets us focus on our own emotional state, with work, when it's placed in the leading function... and it said it was responsible for being attuned to your own emotional state, recognizing the state of others, and creating an atmosphere that makes others feel comfortable.

Now this may or may not be coincidence... but I know for sure that I could never tell how people felt years ago, and now I can every so often. If they try to hide it they almost definitely can, but if they're not making the conscious effort it shines through. So it may also be, if socionics is right and the same information element is used to recognize your own emotions and those of others, that exploring your own feelings helps develop it so that you can see them in others. So if you're debating whether it's worth it to let go of yourself freely, which I'm sure I would do if we were switched, make sure to consider the other benefits of letting that other part of yourself develop.

And well... shutting our investigations off in order to feel seems like it would make sense... but I listened to a scientific investigation of morality for a philosophy class and they said that a lot of conflicting feelings towards moral situations comes because different parts of our brain "shout" different things in our decision making. Like if you think about whether it's right to push a really fat person in front of a train in order to derail it so that it doesn't run over 5 other people... the higher developed functions in your brain argue that 5 lives are more valuable than one, but a more primitive section of it shouts without real reason "you don't push your comrade in front of a train!" They thought it had to do with deep-seeded things from early in our evolution, but if nothing else it proves that different parts of our brain "talk" at the same time (they hooked up electrodes and watched for neurons firing, of course)... so there's no real reason why we shouldn't think and feel at the same time.

There are also other types where it makes much less sense... like the SEE/IEE can't judge new ideas accurately while they're controlling a situation. At least... that's my interpretation of what it must be like for them given the theory. I actually know an SEE pretty well so I oughta ask him and find out, haha.

ok, now it's time for a nap, then I'm out for the weekend. Hopefully there's some interesting stuff when I get back.

 

[loveofreason]

aha! The cranky old lady's favourite topic!

I'm getting tired and muddled, so excuse me if this is just a few garbled comments - I'll have another go later!

Intensity. This hasn't been discussed before, but seems to be the critical core of your question. Is it common that we don't feel with the intensity that other people express?

I get this sense of, um... emotional location. If I can use the frequent analogy of emotions and water - there is the internal ocean and the external. There are rare things that I seem to feel intensely that arise within that internal ocean, further, there are times I can provoke internal intensity with concentration. (And other times I can't stir a thing!) But by and large I prefer this to be a mill-pond. Smooth, untroubled, reflective. So there is the endogenic process.

Now the external can be a total ocean in which one becomes submerged and this can be pleasant, sublime, frightening, overwhelming, even life-threatening (I often perceive emotional overwhelm as a life-threatening event, but the experience fascinates me), which is of course intense, but it comes from the outside and always has an alien quality.

Or rather than coming as an ocean it can come as driving rain (and one can feel snug in their shelter, untouched by it, or exposed and stripped), or like mist, humidity, snow... any permutation of water. There is always the internal retreat from exogenous emotion. The waters in us do not have to rise in sympathy.

We can feel so removed from exogenous emotions that we doubt our connectedness to the rest of humanity. We can feel so still within, so lacking in endogenous or sympathetic movement, that we may doubt our own humanity, but I think this is because we have been encultured to equate emotional movement (ie. higher amplitude and frequency) with vitality. Lack of high intensity emotional experience can be worrying because we're meant to get excited, be carried away, listen to our hearts... so says popular mythos.

This overlooks that emotional health is not based soley on activity, but critically on the quality of the water within. If I make reference to my situation, then the concern I've voiced in other threads is due to the pollution of that internal ocean I'm talking about. The constant lingering toxicity.

My fascination with emotions is served by detachment. I see the emotional system as an object to study. A very complex object. But because emotionality is subjective, the only way I have of garnering material for study is to treat myself as guinea pig, and largely this is what I do. Emotion is my primary weakness and I find myself sparing no measure in attempting to understand it.

 

[loveofreason]

And I should add to my last comment that I can never be quite sure if what I think I understand is in any way reproducible in others!

I know what you describe. As I said in the moods thread, Im even tempered, but not because Im emotionally healthy, well adjusted, etc; but because things dont seem to reach me. I thought this would be the rule among INTPs (we are the detached ones, arent we?), but maybe it depends on how developed the lower F function is. LoR, for example, is much older than us (no effense intended ), its to be expected that she has developed it more so her emotions are more into play than ours, but still immature compared to an F type, which would explain the problems it causes her (proably it is more dramatic in us than in other T types because we are Is as well)
It would help to know (maybe she said it, I dont remember) if it was always like this or she was detached like us when she was our age.

Maybe what some people learn about their feelings and emotions in their 20s, we will learn in our 40s (a.k.a., we are emotionally retarded). Our feeling function may be so weak that it even looks like its not there, later on it would appear and cause trouble because we dont know how to deal with it, and if we are lucky will reach a normal emotional functionality later on.

Just a theory.

I wanted to pick out some ideas from here.

...things dont seem to reach me.

I'm familiar with this feeling, but not all things are the same. Group emotion seems to slide right off me. Leaves me absolutely cold. But other things I feel defendeless against, and these are things likely to be of no consequence or meaning to those around me. And as I mentioned, sometimes I can cook myself into a right emotional stew if I think about it hard enough.

detachment

From very early childhood I don't know what came first, if I was sensitive and learnt detachment, or if I was detached and learned to be sensitive. I can remember holding a huge fear of human relationships because of the overwhelming emotional component to them. I loved studying human emotions from a distance, but had no desire to be 'sullied' by contact with them. I remember thinking this way as a teenager.

It was a conscious decision in my late teens/twenties to study what I feared from within the melee. I learnt to approximate the social emotions of others, which was interesting, but discovered my achilles heel when I actually pretended at love. Within sexual relationships I discovered the phenomena of emotional enmeshment. I discovered I had all or nothing emotional boudaries and nothing in between. Very unpleasant. Very very unpleasant.

It is possible youger INTPs have not yet discovered that there are ways in which their emotional boundaries can be breached. Warning: there are people out there who, invited once, will set up permanent camp within your emotional perimeter, and think nothing of tearing up the landscape to make themselves a toasty little abode. They will redecorate your soul and blame you when you don't like it.

I discovered also that it was possible to unwittingly hurt others. Who would have thought it?

Anyway, in the true fashion of the insane, I attempted time and time again to get different results from the same experiment ...

...normal emotional functionality...

still waiting. Let you know if I ever get there.

My conclusion:

With age comes the realisation that the same old mistakes are inevitable.

 

[Ogion]

Warning: there are people out there who, invited once, will set up permanent camp within your emotional perimeter, and think nothing of tearing up the landscape to make themselves a toasty little abode. They will redecorate your soul and blame you when you don't like it.

You mean like in GoaUld just emotionally? I will be careful Mother Love

Sorry, couldn't come up with something more sensible right now

Ogion

 

[loveofreason]

GoaUld? Young Ogion, enlighten an old lady who's not up to speed with such a thing.

 

[Ogion]

Ah, my fault. It is a parasitical being (in form of a short 'snake') which wraps itself around the spine of its host and takes over control of the body. The host is completely unable to resist. It is a fictional being from the lesser attempt of creativity and Science fiction called "Stargate"...

Ogion

 

[Linsejko]

My, just reading this thread brings back old memories. I half fear getting very involved here again, as I was.

I didn't have time to read the longest responses here, but I read most of what was said, and felt I might have something to add- do forgive any mimicing statements.

At 14, I had a a significant lifestyle change, a paradigm shift, one of the results being that I decided I needed to feel emotions more strongly.

(Prior to that, the only strong emotions I had really known were anger, hatred, and potentially fear.)

I decided then that love was real, and that I wanted to be able to love deeply. I have brought it up many times over the years in important conversations- the meaningfulness of life is experienced (at least half of it) emotionally. The feelers are not all just being dramatic, acting out elaborate emotional displays that are from a fabricated depth of emotion. I want to feel as deeply as they do, because I believe it is real. The other side is I won't be fanatical, imbalanced, as the INTP is so prone to painting the strong F as; I will hurt and understand, and act out of both compassion and wisdom.

Have you ever had a movie make you cry? If you have, did you understand why? That is often a good point to begin dissecting in understanding one's emotions, I think, for us intellectuals.

I don't feel this post was as productive or well thought out as I generally try to make mine, so I apologize- however, I am typing this from a Fujitsu Lifebook u810 (a UMPC), and both the screen and keyboard are exceptionally small...

For this reason, I also kindly ask you to gloss over any spelling errors I may have missed.

.L

 

[Ogion]

Hm, well, with me it is not exactly that i do not want emotions at all. I wouldn't want them to rule my behaviour, but i do want to fell them.
It is just, that i don't feel emotions strongly at all.

Yes, i had sometimes a movie make me cry. Or even just a few deep-hearted words of compassion, or about other topics. Mostly it is because i can empathise and i can feel the sufferings of other emotional-beings (human or animals).

So i have two problems (i guess?): One, i don't have much emotions or emotional behaviour. And second, i feel like if i really give in my empathy, i might cross some barrier and get sucked into depression really quickly (since there is so much suffering in the world).
For the second i should probably go into a buddhist monastery, they are the specialists in this, i suppose

Ogion

P.S.: I don't think you have to excuse yourself so much, Linsejko

 

[fullerene]

there are people out there who, invited once, will set up permanent camp within your emotional perimeter, and think nothing of tearing up the landscape to make themselves a toasty little abode. They will redecorate your soul and blame you when you don't like it.

sigh... I hate to take up your time with something like this... but could you... er, please, explain this a little bit? Call it intuition (both into my situation and your meaning, so it's doubly-shaky)... but there's a sliiight chance this may be in the process of happening to me right now. I'm gonna cross my fingers and pray that you're talking about an ex boyfriend who left or something like that... but I've just got a baseless bad feeling that that's not it.

And second, i feel like if i really give in my empathy, i might cross some barrier and get sucked into depression really quickly (since there is so much suffering in the world).
For the second i should probably go into a buddhist monastery, they are the specialists in this, i suppose

Those few lines are rich. To be honest (forgive me if you said this elsewhere and I missed it, but if I read it I don't remember), it sounds like you're very, very timid, even afraid of your emotions. I mean, it first came up a bit when you said you "don't want them to rule [your] behavior," but these few lines show how much deeper it may be, depending on your thought process for them, because you (unconsciously?) suggested a safeguard for exploring them before you even do. I mean... depression is (I think) caused by emotions, and you not only listed it as a problem, but already have a plan of safeguard (even as a joke) in your mind for helping out with it? I would have passed it by without a second thought, but I have faint memories that you said that once before too. It's also interesting, and I think uncharacteristic, for an intp to be satisfied limiting their experience purposefully (by going to a monastery, for instance, instead of experiencing the world and creating their picture of reality from it) so that they're not swept away by their response to reality.

On the other hand, you could have just been completely kidding, in which case I'd be way off... haha I have a feeling that the above rings either really really true, or else you're wondering "what the heck is he thinking?" I'd be surprised if it were in between... but I thought I oughta throw the idea out there in case it rang true. If not, I figured you'd just tell me and it'd eventually be forgotten.

 

[Jesin]

When experimenting with feeling emotions more strongly, I'd think it would be best to start by playing with happiness first, and then move on to other emotions.

Also, it does seem that I feel more strongly about certain movie and video game plots than I do in real life. That's what murkrow's "weird shit makes me cry" thread was about.

 

[Ogion]

Be assured cryptonia. i wasn't kidding. I mean, with the monastery perhaps a bit (although i thin it would probably an interesting experience of its own, i wouldn't want to live huge amounts of my life there ).
Well, yes, i think i could be timid in that context. i think that is exactly what i wanted to express.
Although i do consider empathy to be a good thing, in general, it probably is harmful if 'consumed' in overdosis. And because i have that feeling, that suspicion/intuition, that my capacity for empathy is very big, and that the in the world there would be so much things to provoke empathy (just think of how many children die every day from famine, or think of some overrun cat/dog... an the edge of a street, ... i think you get what i mean here), since these two conditions exist i think/expect my reservoir of empathy (empathy for sorrow, that is) to be filled very quickly (if i let it) and thus probably recking my emotional stability havoc.

(Hm, i hope that phrase was understandable - i tend to construct really long
phrases. That must be my german-language-hereditary )

Ogion

 

[fullerene]

haha I've heard horror stories from friends who took german in high school. No worries, you made perfect sense.

oh wow, I totally realized how much I quoted would give a bad impression of what I meant you were joking about. I really did just mean the monks part. The point being because timidity is shown by what I knew to be serious--that you think that if you give in to feelings depression will be right behind. I was trying to be really careful how I worded things so as to not be insulting, though, because going to monks to help keep feelings in check is much more fearful than timid. The reason I say that is because monks are monks because they hide away from the world, closing themselves off and withdrawing from it. For one, they may be doing what would be counter-productive for you trying to let feelings go fully, since they could simply be restraining them. I'm not gonna lie... I don't really feel any true empathy at all for much beyond my immediate experience. Even working with Haitian refugees in the Dominican Republic, who I've been told are about as poor as many people in Africa, has faded from my memory since the year or so when I went. On the other hand, I was pushed to tears (not full on crying, but like a drop here and there while my nose clogged) simply listening to my friends talk last night (well... once I was away from them and thinking back on it, I mean) and it's not even like they were mean to me or anything. The things you can't see simply won't strike you as hard as the ones you do... that's just a part of being human I think. By closing themselves off like monks do (or at least did... come to think of it I have no idea what modern monks are like... so I'm working off of a picture centuries old), I honestly think it would distort their view on reality so that their feelings, too, are restrained from going as far as they would.

I honestly do believe (agreeing with you) that feelings, when let loose within yourself while viewing the world, will lead to despair like you say. It's been my experience that, like I've said elsewhere, my religion explains that and offers its solution, which I find satisfactorily prevents me from depression (although at a given moment, you never know). Even without that, though, I still don't understand why you would really want to hold feelings back and never experience reality. I know, at least, that being afraid of what might happen (not in other people... but in myself) bothers me almost as much as hypocrisy (well, not that extreme, but it does annoy me). I saw this in one of the type descriptions, and thought it at least summarized my pretty well.

He is convinced that living is impossible if one disregards the natural laws that regulate the world. One who ignores reality is heading for disaster.

If you agree with that, doesn't it just... seem like willfully repressing emotions towards things is ignoring reality a little?

 

[loveofreason]

Ah, my fault. It is a parasitical being (in form of a short 'snake') which wraps itself around the spine of its host and takes over control of the body. The host is completely unable to resist. It is a fictional being from the lesser attempt of creativity and Science fiction called "Stargate"...

Ogion

ewwww. Yep, something like that.

sigh... I hate to take up your time with something like this... but could you... er, please, explain this a little bit? Call it intuition (both into my situation and your meaning, so it's doubly-shaky)... but there's a sliiight chance this may be in the process of happening to me right now. I'm gonna cross my fingers and pray that you're talking about an ex boyfriend who left or something like that... but I've just got a baseless bad feeling that that's not it.

As you said, baseless.

I'm speaking from past experience.

This fear that's being discussed, the fear that if you open the gates to feeling that you'll never get them closed again and so be lost in an agony of feeling too much because the world is so tragic...

it's legitimate to feel that way.

You might want to remain with that state for as long as necessary. As Linsejko and Jesin suggest, deliberately opening the door first to something that feels great is a good first step. But you might never decide to risk it. Does this constitute a denial of reality?

I'm not sure. Some of us are more inclined to be cautious. Some of us might rightly have evaluated our resources as inadequate to the challenge. Is it wisdom then, or fear?

It's not unreasonable to equate emotional highs (and lows) with drugs - as various drugs stimulate or depress the same neurochemical pathways as the emotional states they mimic. Some of us are simply, biologically, more sensitive to stimuli and would be wise to abstain.

Mind you, active resistance has a way of backfiring at the most suprising moments. (Hence murkrow's thread as mentioned previously ).

Just a thought... what about trying laughter therapy? (A group of people getting together and making themselves laugh, even if it's fake apparently it has great physical/psychological benefits. Can you imagine anything quite as scary?))

 

[Ogion]

@cryptonia
Well, i am working on a stereotypical image off buddhist monks as well (that is, that they master their inner self wholly and become 'enlightened').
But actually the whole 'monatsery-thing' was not meant to be so seriously. I just thought that it could actually be interesting in itself. To learn meditation and such. But that wasn't the centerpiece of my posts.

Hm, you interpret it as deliberately trying to not experience some situation/thing? Well, i think you are right, but i still think it to be worth it at this time. I mean, firstly, there are so much things to experience, i won't be abstaining from experience just because of this special situation. There are enough other things to experience. And then i think, perhaps not everything is worth it to be experienced. Like i never drank myself into oblivion in my life and i never took any other drugs. And you know, i do not inted to. I can sort-of-experience it rationally by means of listening/reading of other person's experiences in that thing. I wouldn't want to experience what Stephen Hawking is experiencing everyday just because it is there and 'real'.

And as i think, there are enough other things, i think i will be busy with them long enough...

@loveofreason
Hm, laughter theray? I have no problem laughing loudly when with other people. Although i have to admit that i would be hardpressed to do it without cause. It just seems to be a uneasy experience.
But i would've thought that a therapy like that aims more at the 'Shy-ness' than at what i describe above?

Ogion

 

[Jordan~]

I recognise some of it. Deaths always hurt me in a big way, that's one of the situations where emotion overcomes me. Injustice is the same. Put the two together, and I'm helpless. For example, I seem to enter an odd, paricularly sensitive mood at night, or at least, in the period between being tired and exhausted. I'm particularly creative, emotional and simultaneously clear and lucid in thought. Words never come grudgingly, I can think of exactly how to say what I mean when I'm like this. In such a condition I watched a documentary about the native tribes of the Arctic, in northern Russia. The nomads were taking their caribou into town for slaughter, and there were literally thousands of them. Seeing them disappearing into the holding pen, knowing that within days of the filming each and every one of them would be dead, struck down for no reason but the greed of the consumer, overhwlemed me, more with anger than with sorrow. Death and injustice on such a large scale, even in so impersonal a situation as that, will always make me break down.
Another thing that gets me is music. I went to see Joanna Newsom at Somerset House in London recently, and while my seemingly broken memory is a bit hazy about the actual performance, I can remember how I felt. I don't remember having felt so happy and enthusiastic for so long before. Her music always gets to me, but perhaps seeing her live - enchanting a crowd of more than a thousand packed into a paved courtyard surrounded by grand Victorian and Neo-classical facades, captivating them all utterly, then breaking the spell with her final note - intensified the whole experience. I didn't cry, but I thought I might at one point. The thing is, had I not focused on the experience, it wouldn't have had the same impact on me. I need to be really paying attention to something for it to affect me emotionally.
Enthusiasm is something I don't feel very much. I don't really think I've felt it since I was about 10, after which the birthdays and Christmases that inspired it lost their lustre.
With films, books, etc. I can't take emotion very seriously, because I start laughing at myself when I get affected; with the exception of a few films with great sentimental value to me.
Overall I'd say that my strongest emotions are anger, which is my primary flaw, really; and something I'm not sure of the name of, an emotional reaction to beauty. Aside from those, none of them are ever very strong.

 

[fullerene]

hmm.. you guys make some good points. Some really good points. On rethinking (and not even very hard), I think it's just my immaturity speaking. Like I said, I hate it when I find myself shirking away from something because I "might not be able to handle it." Your example of drinking especially, Ogion, rang loud bells, because I definitely do exactly that for the same reason. I got mildly drunk, maybe what you'd call buzzed (I don't even know how bad it was because I have nothing to compare it to, but my vision was beginning to slosh behind my eyes when I turned my head a little, I almost lost my balance once, felt a little sick in the stomach, and had a bit of trouble understanding a fast-talking sober friend who called during... but it's not like I didn't know where I was or threw up or anything). Later on that night after the beer was out of my system I thought "ew... that was kinda sickening... why would anyone enjoy that?" (I should mention that was the first alcohol I'd ever had) Then the next night though I was wondering if I could have pushed it any further, or when the next time one of my friends would throw a party would be, caught myself, and decided it was probably a terrible idea to drink really anything anymore.

Er... point being, as much as I hate the idea of abstaining from anything in theory, you just reminded me of a situation where I blatantly do it--and I still have no regrets, and I think my decision is the right one. My ideals by which I judge whether something's good or bad I think just have to catch up and mature with my self-judgments. Sorry to have corrupted a good thread with bad ideas .

 

[Jordan~]

I have a similar view of alcohol, and I've never been drunk before. I just look at people who are drunk and think "Wow, you're making a right idiot of yourself, aren't you?"
It's very offputting, and I can't really understand why people desire to do it except as a social lubricant (which doesn't interest me) and to fit in (which doesn't interest me). Of course, there's the third reason, "Drowning one's sorrows", which doesn't interest me either.

 

[Linsejko]

Jordan, that emotional reaction to beauty- do you speak of "awe", or "wonder"?

I would akin choosing not to feel emotions because of risk of pain to choosing not to feel the sense of touch, because there are many knives in the world.

It's not a perfect analogy, I realize- but it certainly gets a point across.

.L

 

[Jordan~]

It's like both, with happiness thrown in. It's very strong and moving, and can reduce me to tears.

 

[Ogion]

Ah, similar reactions to alcohol. Well i made the same decision even before drinking anything, just because i saw what others did with alcohol.
Now i am observing myself just to have no desire for drinking alcohol at all. Recently i thought about trying it out just one time (to get drunk and see where my limit is), because someone made quite similar arguments as you cryptonia, that i had to try a thing at least once before rejecting it.
But i think i can form an opinion out of what others describe me about it and then decide it isn't even worth a shot.

Ogion

P.S.:

Sorry to have corrupted a good thread with bad ideas

No, don't say that. I kicked off a discussion and want to see where it leads...
A forum is after all a place of exchanging opinions and experiences, right?

 

[Jordan~]

I am pretty curious to know what being drunk is like. Maybe one day I'll force someone to stay sober and watch me drink.

 

[fullerene]

But i think i can form an opinion out of what others describe me about it and then decide it isn't even worth a shot.

Maybe that's the key... the key to why I think you're right here, and also why I didn't make the connection between drinking and feelings. If I were to try to describe the sensation of drunkenness to you, I would say... well... all the things I said above (a little sickening in the stomach, tougher to balance, dulled perception to the things around you, etc)... frankly not much good, although it was a whole lot easier to talk to people. Then, when I found myself wishing I could drink again the next night, my brain just lurched against the instinct. My brain sent out a resounding "NO!" inside my head because... well... quite frankly that's not the first time I've felt like that at all, and the other thing has caused massive problems internally. That's why I definitely agree with you and lor that it's wisdom to back off when you know you can't handle something... some things can just ruin your life (I actually have to read that whole "vices" thread cause there was something related that I wanted to find out that might have been answered there).

Something like feelings, though... I wish I had some more evidence (/experience) to answer more firmly and conclusively... but the results for what I have felt weren't really damaging or destructive. They stirred me to intense reflection... but that only promoted personal growth. I got really depressed and upset and to the edge of despairing... but only for a little while. Then when the ideas that caused the depression were dealt with, the experience greatly helped me relate to people... not in small talk or social skills certainly, but in the deeper personal conversations once they came up (since I had thoughtful, deeper answers to give when people were interested in me due to the person of intense reflection... and then even if part of yourself is held back, there's so much "more" of you that the pieces you do share are still deep and personal to the person you're talking to that they're comfortable answering back when you ask them about themselves too).

So in that sense... from my point of view, I just don't see all that much danger in experiencing things emotionally. That's the difference between emotions and alcohol. Although... I suppose if things had gone just slightly differently I could be in far worse shape now... but *shrug*, what can you say? If I traded away my experiences I wouldn't be half the person I am now, and if they had gone a bit differently, in the worst case I would have just been miserable for some number of years (more than the 3 or 4 or whatever I already was) or maybe suicided or something. *shrug*... the thought honestly strikes me as no more sad than just skipping ahead a hundred years or so... and I don't think I'm just being insensitive, because I thought about it for a little bit myself.

Long story short: Alcohol: wise to avoid if you think it may cause trouble. Emotions: Well... I didn't have the luxury of deciding whether I wanted to feel them or not... perhaps even if you choose to suppress them now there will come a day when you don't have the choice either. Reflecting now... I have no regrets, and much to be thankful for. If you can actually choose what you want to feel, at least try to take that into consideration.

A forum is after all a place of exchanging opinions and experiences, right?

Yeah, I suppose you're right. It's only in the past month or so that I started sharing my thoughts at all though, outside of I think one friend. I hate hearing myself say something that could have been avoided if I'd just shut up and thought about it more. I suppose that's just more arrogance showing though, to think that all my thoughts will be right if I just touch all the bases internally with them. I'm saturated with it.

 

[Ogion]

I think there is value and reason to both our views. There are things, which one doesn't have to experience (since description from others bring the conclusion that the experience won't be worth it.). But it is important too, to not shy away from too much experiences. And to recognise that even (some say especially?) negative experiences help shape the character and help to grow.
I think i just have to adopt an incremental approach and explore my feelings everytime a bit more.

Ogion

 

[fullerene]

If you have that degree of control, I think that's a spectacular idea.

 

[fullerene]

hmm... ok so sorry to dig back up this thread, but I'm not sure which of the (several) related threads to put it in.

Anyway... I just watched "requiem for a dream" for the first time the other night, which is basically a movie about 4 peoples' drug addictions ruining their lives. It was fantastically done, very artistic, and, above all, depressing.

...or so I've been told.

My friends who had seen it unanimously warned me that it was a great movie, and well worth seeing once, but to make sure I didn't have to see people or do anything for a while because it would ruin both the rest of the day I saw it, as well as the next one.

The thing is, well... it just... didn't. The ending made me feel sick in my stomach, queasy more than sad. Then, barely an hour later, I was fine. I would never want to watch it again (it wasn't that good of a movie), but it was like it was completely gone as a stimulus for mood (and I'm not even sure queasy-ness is related to mood or emotions in the first place).

Hopefully someone else has seen the movie so you know what I'm talking about. This has led me to rethink my emotional sensitivity, though. I was, in fact, consciously trying to be as feeling-neutral as I could (neither artificially boosting them nor holding them back) during the movie, so I don't think that had anything to do with it (I also only started that conscious effort like 3/4 of the way in, when I realized I wasn't nearly as depressed as everyone seemed to think I'd be, so the effect of trying not to affect them didn't seem to make a difference either).

So I'm wondering, how much do you think past experiences not only affect our emotions, but our very ability to have them? Or if it's not past experiences, does anyone know what does affect our ability to feel some things and not others? Or on third thought, are there even some feelings you find happening within yourself a lot more frequently or easily than others?

 

[severus]

Hm, that reminds me of watching Forest Gump and not understanding why my friends were crying during it. That was a long movie. Mostly, I was bored.
Dunno about your questions....
Mostly my mood is "brooding." Teehee. I am anxious a lot too.

 

[fullerene]

haha ah, thanks anyway.

Secondary notes...
I watched Elfen Lied (13 episode anime series) for the second time spread throughout the same day I watched Requiem and the day before, and still cried twice during it (despite having seen it before)... so I know I'm not just emotionally defective or insensitive. This series has more to do with abandonment and friendlessness, though, where Requiem has to do with hopeless addiction... both depressing, but one just hits me more than the other I think.

Do you think it has to do with the situations, which would be more likely linked to individual history, or the characters themselves, who you have to genuinely care about in order to feel for? If so what is it that draws an attachment to some characters, and not others? Both the series and the movie were very well done, and the actors (in the one that wasn't anime) were believable... so it's not like they seemed fake...

another question to add: do you think these are signs of dissociation? It's a personality "disorder" I read mentioned in a psychological journal where someone detatches their body and emotions from themselves entirely, treating them as if they were separate from themselves. I don't know much about it, since it was just touched on and I looked up a quick definition, but is what I'm talking about an example of it? If so, why is it even considered a disorder? It seems harmless.

 

[Agent Intellect]

So I'm wondering, how much do you think past experiences not only affect our emotions, but our very ability to have them? Or if it's not past experiences, does anyone know what does affect our ability to feel some things and not others? Or on third thought, are there even some feelings you find happening within yourself a lot more frequently or easily than others?

interesting. i've seen the movie too (loved the music in it, i even bought the soundtrack), and even though i knew it was depressing and sad, i don't think i actually FELT those feelings so much as i knew that they would be the feelings the movie was attempting to invoke. of course, i'm quite desensitized (probably too many movies, video games, rap music, and bad real life experiences) so i often times don't find myself very emotionally moved by to many things (except when i'm drunk). i think my main problem is that i analyse emotions (especially my own) too logically or scientifically.

 

[Wisp]

Mmmm... I saw Wall-e for the first time last week. It depressed me. A lot. For the next three days. Well, upon introspection (lying awake at night, peaks of emotional intensity, ludity, creativity, and wordiness) I realized that I was affected probably, because I identify/am close to understanding machines in general. Just the fact that I was engaged in the movie on a higher level set me up for my own responding wave of self-pity and depression as I watched the movements of wall-e and eve , wondering if I myself might have the capacity to achieve that sort of bond, and seeing as how I was rather depressed at the time arriving at the obvious conclusion (after all, who'd want to form a bond with me, right?) Well, at the tail end of this "depression" I came out with a vague sense of purposelessness and hopelessness. Which is distinctively odd as I characteristically have very little emotional movement.

The interesting part of this, I think, is the fact that a happy movie depressed me. but I came out of it with a new set of insights and notions and ideas. The most interesting of which, would be, isn't a humans purpose to form bonds and therefore change and better the world around him/her? Isn't a person who is less adept at forming bonds worth less? Am I, because I cannot conceive of forming a bond strong enough that I would say, throw myslef infront of a car to save the other, a lesser being? Hence my depression. I suppose what brought me out of depression was that

A) I was at Disney World and generally happier than my average self and

B) I wouldn't know if I was incapable of forming such bonds having never tried it.

All this from wall-e! I find it rather amusing that I come off as arrogant to most people, because I don't like talking to them, yet I probably doubt myself more than anyone else... At least I KNOW they're stupid... I kid, I kid...

On a reassuring metacognitive note I know that I am capable of surrendering, because I can regularly use music as an outlet... Oh well...
\

Thoughts anyone?

 

[fullerene]

quite a post... I haven't seen the movie, so I only know about it what I can gather from your post.

but hmm... in that case, does this happen every time you see a movie where two people are connected as strongly as wall-e and eve were, or was this one especially moving? I wonder because it seems strange that if it's only the connection you're lacking that makes you upset, the fact that they're robots at all probably isn't significant--they may have the appearance of robots, but my guess is that they don't act a whole lot more like people than machines in the movie. If it's only the robotic characters that make a difference to you, then you'd probably find yourself wondering what happened to them more. It's tough for me to understand it being a combination of both, because although they looked like robots, having a connection isn't like a machine at all (at least not the ones that you feel closer to than you do to people).

So... er... I really don't know if that would help at all. I'm leaning towards no, but I'll post it anyway just in case. Thanks for the thoughts.

 

[Wisp]

No the interesting part was the transition, I think. The transition from robotic to human(oid).
I tend to identify with the robot so seeing them move on to something "better" made me compare it to myself... I feel as if I'm a pseudo-robot in this phase of my psyche. It was just one of those things. I'm really very rarely affected by movies at all, aside from an idle curiosity... This was why I was so surprised... And felt the need to post! Maybe I'll make a thread...

 

[loveofreason]

Mmmm... I saw Wall-e for the first time last week. It depressed me. A lot. For the next three days. Well, upon introspection (lying awake at night, peaks of emotional intensity, ludity, creativity, and wordiness) I realized that I was affected probably, because I identify/am close to understanding machines in general. Just the fact that I was engaged in the movie on a higher level set me up for my own responding wave of self-pity and depression as I watched the movements of wall-e and eve , wondering if I myself might have the capacity to achieve that sort of bond, and seeing as how I was rather depressed at the time arriving at the obvious conclusion (after all, who'd want to form a bond with me, right?) Well, at the tail end of this "depression" I came out with a vague sense of purposelessness and hopelessness. Which is distinctively odd as I characteristically have very little emotional movement.

The interesting part of this, I think, is the fact that a happy movie depressed me. but I came out of it with a new set of insights and notions and ideas. The most interesting of which, would be, isn't a humans purpose to form bonds and therefore change and better the world around him/her? Isn't a person who is less adept at forming bonds worth less? Am I, because I cannot conceive of forming a bond strong enough that I would say, throw myslef infront of a car to save the other, a lesser being? Hence my depression. I suppose what brought me out of depression was that

A) I was at Disney World and generally happier than my average self and

B) I wouldn't know if I was incapable of forming such bonds having never tried it.

All this from wall-e! I find it rather amusing that I come off as arrogant to most people, because I don't like talking to them, yet I probably doubt myself more than anyone else... At least I KNOW they're stupid... I kid, I kid...

On a reassuring metacognitive note I know that I am capable of surrendering, because I can regularly use music as an outlet... Oh well...
\

Thoughts anyone?

Great post, Wisp.

We all have our triggers don't we?

Seems common that we live in some abstract fear of our emotions, or apparent lack thereof. It's easier to surrender when there is nothing at stake. eg. Wisp can move with the music, and it's all automatic, beautiful, flowing - no chance of miscommunication or rejection. Each of us can find stories, films and characters with which we identify, and suddenly the tears are streaming forth. Or the laughter, I suppose. But laughter's not so touchy as what hurts us, is it?

I'm thinking back to years that I spent being sad because I couldn't let myself be angry. Somehow the sorrow was a sublimation of anger. I wonder how much of my energy now is being expended turning sorrow into anger, because I will not grieve. (Know all about it academically - have studied the creature well , can even feel the movement required and flesh it out in imagination... but go there in anything more than fantasy!? )

But anyway, these sore spots we develop and try so hard to protect are most vulnerable, I think, to indirect human approach. ie. to the vessels of emotional content. The stories carried by characters or music or visual imagery - something full of the pathos but empty of actual human inhabitants - no other soul to butt heads with. Easy to project ourselves into the vessel and feel complete enough to let go!

If we have to suffer human relationships I think we all need someone(s) astute enough to recognise and draw us out in a completely non-threatening manner. Not feeling connected to other humans need not indicate a lack of humanity, but perhaps a fear of overwhelm because to feel to full capacity is simply too much.

As to whether we're "worth less" for not forming intimate bonds, or less human... I prefer to think in terms of forming "metabonds" .

I know that even when you're moving the world through music, Wisp, you'll still wonder on the inside if you're a failure, and that feeling probably won't go away (it never does for me), but think... without the metabonds what great unity of experience would define 'humanity'?

*I wish I could cry - makes note to watch Elfen Lied if ever the opportunity arises...

 

[grrreg]

movies don't move me for anything...it all seems too manufactured and affected. I just don't emotionally connect with them with one exception, Central Station. And I think that had to do with the main character's loss of her father. That I could relate to.
In general I can be pretty damn moody for an INTP type. I wear my emotions on my sleeve and have had to learn to curb them way back in many situations. Part of this is maturity, and part is practice. I live in New York City where if I reacted the way I felt like at any given time, I would be doing nothing but getting annoyed with people or over sexing myself. This is not to say I don't react to situations, but I don't under react like I used to when I was a kid. Nor over react to them like when I was a teenager. My bursts are quick though and pass easily. I don't hold anything. In this regard maybe I am more INTP since I tend to feel less long term. Except the important stuff of course.
In general though, too much social interaction drains me, and I find myself only wanting one person at a time to deal with. None of my friends really know each other. It's not a group dynamic situation. One is more than enough. I am a good listener and very empathic/sympathetic and do what I can to reasonably help a friend out by talking mainly.
So, maybe it's not the quantity of people you bond with but a quality issue.
If you find yourself generally detached from your and other's emotions, remember that's what people pay thousands of dollars for in therapy sessions.!!

 

[Perseus]

Detached is a state of mind on the Millon Map.


http://www.millon.net/taxonomy/index.htm


What is is your existential position?

Detached
Dependent
Independent
Discordant
Ambivalent

These personality types may seen fixed or ingrained, but I maintain they are a direct result of psycho-social circumstances and they are an overlay program on top of the basic Keirsey personality types.

So it could be, what is your existential position in your present social circumstances?

 

[fullerene]

theere we go lor, haha I was wondering when you were gonna turn up.

But anyway, these sore spots we develop and try so hard to protect are most vulnerable, I think, to indirect human approach. ie. to the vessels of emotional content. The stories carried by characters or music or visual imagery - something full of the pathos but empty of actual human inhabitants - no other soul to butt heads with.

I think... that really might be it. Before everything that moved me was either completely self-contained (reflection and no real external stimulus at all), music, or writing... and recently it's been because I've been watching anime... cartoons too unrealistic to imitate people all that well. Maybe it is just that when real people are acting, they're too realistic and it pushes me back into sedation.

Ugh... what a horrible thought, to think that butting heads with people makes me avoid them that much that a real one would block emotional response.

I'm thinking back to years that I spent being sad because I couldn't let myself be angry. Somehow the sorrow was a sublimation of anger. I wonder how much of my energy now is being expended turning sorrow into anger, because I will not grieve.

That's... unexpected? The only reason I made an account here in the first place was to highlight how important it was that you told someone else to grieve when they felt like it... why don't you yourself?

*I wish I could cry - makes note to watch Elfen Lied if ever the opportunity arises...

Er... fair warning with that, in case you didn't bother to see the "top 5 anime" thread. Gratiutious amounts of blood and nudity, and the series doesn't take the turn away from the violent/comical until after I think the 4th episode. They're inseperable from the rest, as the show makes an artistic whole and they provide precious time to grow attatched to the characters... but it's not for the fainthearted.

 

[Jesin]

A scene from a video game made me cry a while ago. I also refused to say more than a few words at a time to anyone for at least a couple of hours. For 1-3 weeks afterwards, the music from that scene (link) could make me cry.

Video games can make it much easier to identify with the main character, because you play as that character.

 

[Wisp]

What game?

 

[Jesin]

http://tinyurl.com/6bort5

 

[loveofreason]

I was wondering when you were gonna turn up.

I takes me time .

I think... that really might be it. Before everything that moved me was either completely self-contained (reflection and no real external stimulus at all), music, or writing... and recently it's been because I've been watching anime... cartoons too unrealistic to imitate people all that well. Maybe it is just that when real people are acting, they're too realistic and it pushes me back into sedation.

Ugh... what a horrible thought, to think that butting heads with people makes me avoid them that much that a real one would block emotional response.

It's the logical stance if emotional betrayal and others' rejection of your primal needs were your formative experiences. I'm amazed at the capacity of any one to feel safe with another human being. To actual be able to trust another human being with one's emotional expression is simply beyond my comprehension. Though I can imagine what it may feel like ( I can imagine faeries too ).

That's... unexpected? The only reason I made an account here in the first place was to highlight how important it was that you told someone else to grieve when they felt like it... why don't you yourself?

Yeah, the irony...

Several factors:

1. I make a point of studying the things I find most fearful, and absorb as much information as I can lay hands on about the topic. I have circled grief and explored every facet of it, I have tried it on in limited circumstances, like rehearsing a role in a play, but am not prepared for the real thing, as there are steps yet to take...

2. Giving up. I've come to realise that so long as we hold hope, we cannot grieve. Accepting the reality of a loss and letting go of the thing most desired are necessary preparations.

3. Creating a safe space. I think I made this point in the loss thread. The bereft cannot properly grieve in the face of emotional hostility, indifference or misunderstanding. I've heard the term "emotional transparency" and find it very apt. We need supporters that permit us to be emotionally transparent because upon entering the house of grief we find our host will not permit anything to be hidden. That or we need an adequate solitude, but for some reason the presence of the benevolent witness makes the whole experience more rounded and complete. Must be a facet of approval and validation that cuts the internal guy wires.

(*Repeats mantra to self - It's OK to be a puddle. It's OK to be a puddle *)

So until I'm ready to give up and finally feel safe in this world, I'm a right toxic time-bomb. Given circumstances neither eventuality is on the horizon, while every day is consumed with the anxiety that I must make it to that safe place.



(quote)Er... fair warning with that, in case you didn't bother to see the "top 5 anime" thread. Gratiutious amounts of blood and nudity, and the series doesn't take the turn away from the violent/comical until after I think the 4th episode. They're inseperable from the rest, as the show makes an artistic whole and they provide precious time to grow attatched to the characters... but it's not for the fainthearted.[/quote]

Duly noted and undeterred. As you said, there's something about animation that makes characters and topics accessible when real life actors are a turn off. Real actors simply aren't abstract enough to permit the ideas to shine through, nor empty enough to permit the mind to beam in.

phew, I feel like I've turned this thread into a personal shrink. Next!


Actually, that reminds me of something that may be relevant to the OP topic. Having found that I can now out-think every variety of shrink with whom I cross paths, the most useful modalities that remain are forms of body-work.

It's been mentioned elsewhere (one of cobersts threads I think): emotions are dense. That is, they are physically based in the chemicals of our endocrinological system. They have substance. Where the intellect fails they can be reached through touch and other sensate experience. Sometimes the best path to emotional exploration is a direct physical one...

...no doubt where the dual meaning of feeling originated.

(more earth-shattering news from the bureau of the bloody obvious . This simpleton is so tired now she's about to faint. Goodnight all.)

 

[fullerene]

such good stuff... I feel like I could sit and listen to you talk on the topic for hours--but then I remind myself you'd never trust me enough to do that anyway .

Anyway... I don't want to jack this thread too badly off topic--but I know you're older than most of us are, so are you married? That doesn't penetrate through the incapacity to feel safe around other people? I always taken it for granted, thinking about it myself, that that would make like the very first thing I would need/need to find in a woman before marrying them. Does/can it work any other way?


Otherwise... yeah, 2 out of 3 of those I pretty much completely agree with... I just didn't think I feared anything before I had something to grieve about though. Ever since the fear of young childhood left me and the will to study fearful things that came with adulthood, the only overlap has really been found in people and emotions. Grief itself doesn't scare me, except for what you mentioned--the transparency around other people... which coincidentally I'd never even thought of, because I just assumed that grief was one of those "alone only" things. I really think that given some time, unless experiences with people work to change the way things are going now, I'm going to end up quite close to the image of you I've constructed out of these posts.

tee hee ok, I felt obligated to warn you about the anime, but if you don't have a problem with that, it's phenomenal. I started watching it around 12 or 1 AM the first time, just meaning to watch a couple before bed, and stayed and watched the entire series straight through (you can find it free online). I think you'll probably like it.

 

[loveofreason]

Otherwise... yeah, 2 out of 3 of those I pretty much completely agree with... I just didn't think I feared anything before I had something to grieve about though. Ever since the fear of young childhood left me and the will to study fearful things that came with adulthood, the only overlap has really been found in people and emotions. Grief itself doesn't scare me, except for what you mentioned--the transparency around other people... which coincidentally I'd never even thought of, because I just assumed that grief was one of those "alone only" things. I really think that given some time, unless experiences with people work to change the way things are going now, I'm going to end up quite close to the image of you I've constructed out of these posts.

So you're starting to look like a twisted windswept tree bent around a rock on near vertical hillside in driving rain? Haha. Part of me hopes we all end up something a little more human a little less tortured bonsai!

I've been waiting for my perfect "alone only" world in which everyone else vanishes. Tain't happening. Now I'm wondering how to survive reality.

Seriously, my own dysfunctional psychology has kept me amused for decades, but I'm not sure I understand it that much better than when I began. I admit that's just self-doubt talking, but the journey is rather circular, and I find myself passing the same landscape (hey - look at that rock! I know that rock!) from ever-shifting angles - now wide, expansive, connected... now narrow, focused, isolated.

Anyway... I don't want to jack this thread too badly off topic--but I know you're older than most of us are, so are you married? That doesn't penetrate through the incapacity to feel safe around other people? I always taken it for granted, thinking about it myself, that that would make like the very first thing I would need/need to find in a woman before marrying them. Does/can it work any other way?

You know, back when I was a girl they hadn't even invented marriage.

To avoid more off-topicness (and give me time to assemble a suitable character for replying) I'll save that pondering for a more relevant thread...

 

[fullerene]

oh dear... so if I keep worrying about my horribly corrupted psychological state like I have the past few years, the journey continues in much the same way as it already has hmm... I guess on the plus side I at least think I understand myself better than I did originally... but for every problem solved another one pops up, so who knows.

More relevant thread? hmm... *heads to the psychological section*