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Emotions...

Wisp

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@cryptonia

Back in the stone ages, when this board had about 100 posts, total, maybe less, LoR mentioned she was polyamorous. I would have thought she'd've mentioned it. Oh, and I DO use odd contractions...
 

loveofreason

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*drops Wisp a few notches on the trust scale*

Ahem.

Yep, I'm poly of the allergic-to-marriage variety. As I indeed mentioned back in the days when there were just a cosy few of us here. (But Wisp! Did you notice there are so many *looks cautiously around, whispers* strange people about now?)

But because the current issue is specifically about relationships and trust, I was taking my time to re-assess my relationship to the whole notion of relationships, before opening my mouth only to insert my foot. I do like to assemble an original reply to the best of my current knowledge, rather than grabbing a pre-fab off the shelf. Sometimes that takes a while.

*saunters off to make a music board and tweak Wisp's permissions :p*
 

Perseus

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My post got lost. I did not keep a copy.

Briefly, emotions can be superficial, but real all the same.
 

fullerene

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*scratches head* ooh ok. I've never heard of such a thing before. Well... haha I was just talking to one of my friends a few weeks ago though, and she said that at the camp she works at there's a girl with "two dads and a mom," who live together like a family, but I'd never heard the word and never known anyone in that situation myself. I searched the word in the forums though, and you're right wisp, it was mentioned in her intro thread (which I think was buried before I got here). I'm not sure I could do that though... like I know I would feel like I was just getting in the way of the others. I can't see any way that I wouldn't. If it's workin out for you though, then it's workin out for you.

I'm gonna have to bother you and find out about the community you're living in that's trying to throw off all the bounds created by culture some other time, too, if you don't mind.

By all means, reassess your relationship to the notion of relationships and think about it first... I look forward to hearing the end result.
 

Wisp

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*Wisp's post count locked at -1*

Well it WAS public, if one knew where to look... And you ARE a mod. If it was sensitive you could've taken it off.
 

Wisp

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712 Just a hair past a convinience store.


I was kidding, btw.
 

Jesin

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OK...

Anyway, back to the topic?
 

Ogion

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Nice you kept the thread up (at least some time).

With me there is nothing changed for now. My most frequent 'emotion' is annoyance i think.
But maybe i discovered another aspect to this. My brother (15) is currently very, ..., hmm, i don't quite know how to phrase it. Another try: He nearly always seems to be pissed off when my parents are just potentially going to tell him to do something (like bring the waste outside or anything). He is very rebellious and oftentimes just blocks or argues just for destroying 'harmony'. Well, i told this to illustrate something. Most of the times he rebels, i think for mysel, that it ould be so much easier and more peaceful to get along, if everyone would just be silent. If i just ignore someone annyoing me than to give him contra. I mean, i for myself would be much happier to avoid arguing and shouting, even if i were right, than to fight for my stance.
Does this sound strange? I just think it to be easier to ignore and be silent than to defend loudly one's position.

Ogion
 

icywindow

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To Ogion:

I think one of the stances that we take is that we all will eventually come to the truth at some point, and if they're not ready for it, that's dandy; let them discover it for themselves. I don't really like to argue, and I don't generally argue unless it's a personal point. At that point, it tends to be just a quieting and a pensive look and brooding over it for a day or two, at which point, I get tired of it. Depending on how I perceive the person will respond, they'll either get the cold shoulder for a bit or I'll tell it to them as gently I know how. YAY TACT!

Here's my take on my emotions: I've been relatively peaceful through most of my life, and there are certain things that really get me excited, like learning about complex systems like mathematics, particularly connecting the dots in my head. I can have a euphoria for hours on a new idea that I get from connecting things I've learned about before.

That said, I also have the capacity to be depressed along the same lines, depending on the circumstances. Most of the time, though, if I'm low energy, I'm slightly bothered but acquiescent, for example, that I'm not as productive at work as I think I should be. Expectation is a grand thing. If I'm high energy, I'm generally happy, perky, and... still acquiescent.

All in all, though, perhaps I have a different bent than some of you in that respect?
 

loveofreason

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Nice you kept the thread up (at least some time).

With me there is nothing changed for now. My most frequent 'emotion' is annoyance i think.
But maybe i discovered another aspect to this. My brother (15) is currently very, ..., hmm, i don't quite know how to phrase it. Another try: He nearly always seems to be pissed off when my parents are just potentially going to tell him to do something (like bring the waste outside or anything). He is very rebellious and oftentimes just blocks or argues just for destroying 'harmony'. Well, i told this to illustrate something. Most of the times he rebels, i think for mysel, that it ould be so much easier and more peaceful to get along, if everyone would just be silent. If i just ignore someone annyoing me than to give him contra. I mean, i for myself would be much happier to avoid arguing and shouting, even if i were right, than to fight for my stance.
Does this sound strange? I just think it to be easier to ignore and be silent than to defend loudly one's position.

Ogion
Ogion, I was silent for years. No matter what was said I wouldn't respond. Then one day I just snapped. I was sick of being yelled at, sick of the hissy fits, sick of the accusations. Finally I was cornered and fed up beyond belief. I just started yelling back. It's horrible. It doesn't resolve anything except that the other person gains some satisfaction because they've finally broken you and reduced you to their level. They get the shouting match they want. I get a curdled stomach and despair.

But it's like a door that can't be closed. Now I can't seem to stop yelling. I'm so angry for all conflict in the world, conflict that insists itself upon my personal world. All I want is to be alone and safe and happy. :)

Screw people. I hate them. I hate them for making me feel hate. Damn. This belongs in the shout club. Sorry for the outburst. Just hang in there. You have the right approach - don't let anyone force you into defense.

And Icy, I'm not sure your inclination is too much different... at least I think I can understand having that quiescence, whether it be 'up' or 'down'. The quiessent centre is ideal, but (for me) it's so far away now and circumstances so unfavourable...
 

icywindow

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*hugs loveofreason* It's hard once you become jaded to make it back out, to trust peoples again. After being taken advantage of, toyed with, pushed to the limits and then put on a shelf, it's hard to get your sense of interpersonality back. Still, I think it's an important thing for me personally to get back there, because even being introverted it's necessary to have contact with people - just need the right ones around :)
 

fullerene

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Ogion, I was silent for years. No matter what was said I wouldn't respond. Then one day I just snapped. I was sick of being yelled at, sick of the hissy fits, sick of the accusations. Finally I was cornered and fed up beyond belief. I just started yelling back.
wow you scare me. A lot. I was actually going to answer Ogion's post basically with "I find I pretty much stay quiet no matter what happens, but even so I hate being yelled at. Sometimes I think it's cowardice, but sometimes I think it's just my upbringing at makes me want to stay quiet, to not turn out like my dad." ...have I mentioned before how much I think I'm going to end up like you in a few years? yeah....

what would you suggest, when someone yells, rather than keeping quiet? What's a healthier way to handle it?
 

Jordan~

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When people yell, I put them in their place. A few well-calculated words and a look (I am very good at looks) is enough to make most people shut up. If it's someone you care about, just hold on to steely logic and never sink to their level. Generally what happens when I argue with my mum is that she shouts and bawls, I speak back and look faintly amused, and she ends up crying and apologising.
 

Agent Intellect

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When people yell, I put them in their place. A few well-calculated words and a look (I am very good at looks) is enough to make most people shut up. If it's someone you care about, just hold on to steely logic and never sink to their level. Generally what happens when I argue with my mum is that she shouts and bawls, I speak back and look faintly amused, and she ends up crying and apologising.

i agree, a few good words are better then a lot of useless ones. quality over quantity.
 

fullerene

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If it's someone you care about, just hold on to steely logic and never sink to their level.
Actually, that's almost exactly what I do if I can. You'd never catch my parents apologizing though. When someone (like them) is in that in between state where you care for them enough not to yell back, but don't care enough to explain yourself, silence is about the only natural reaction. LoR just scared me a tad because I really thought that kind of thing was what she meant by "silent" and "not responding." I coulda been wrong, but I thought it sounded like she meant "responding emotionally."
 

Wisp

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I would think that an INTP would really be good at looks.

It doesn't work nearly so well when your mom's an INTP as well... Damn!
 

loveofreason

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ooo... H-U-G-S? O.o (The purr or bite instinct is seriously challenged to decide between purr and bite!) Thanks! (Yeah it sucks being jaded!)

Yeah, I'd put variations on "the look" and any dry cutting comments in the not-responding-emotionally category, though I'm not qualified to comment on the long term wisdom of it (or maturity for that matter - but when we're all acting from our most vulnerable immaturities, and as children you realise your parents are just children like you, only tired... it's just a bun-fight of infantile tactic versus infantile tactic! No-one I've ever known has a healthy model of behaviour.)

Umm... so that question. What are the alternatives to yelling or keeping quiet?

I used to try y follows x type reasoning. I used to try to understand and discuss cause and effect. I used to look for understanding of the other's position and for solutions. I would explain myself. I used to think that if something was explained clearly that the misunderstanding would vanish.

Foolishly I thought everyone's primary concern was to get to the truth. Now I know the driving motivation of 99% of people 99% of the time is just to make the pain/emptiness go away. However briefly.

All I can say now is that virtually every time someone throws a hissy fit - the issue is not the issue. Whatever they're screaming at the top of their lungs about is only a decoy. They don't even know it. They honestly think you're the cause of their problems, and if they yell loud enough long enough, you'll change and everything will be perfect. Bunk.

We're all guilty. We all project our faults onto others. I wonder if INTPs become easier targets though because of our penchant for mirroring.

I used to consciously mirror behaviour, thinking that people would recognise themselves and then reflect on the impact of their actions (with the knowledge of what it was like to be on the receiving end). When I finally broke and started yelling, that is essentially what I was doing. The old "dose of their own medicine" tactic, but it didn't work. The people I've known have been incredibly dense when it comes to recognising themselves. I completely failed in my objective, and too soon the mimicry settled in in earnest. Like I said - the door wouldn't close...

so perhaps the only useful thing I can conclude when it comes to dealing with conflict: beware the behaviour you mimic. Beware your own projections. Always have an escape route. (You'll never win the war when your adversary is engaging you as proxy for their self in some made-up arena from their own internal struggles - just get out of the room of mirrors and leave then to self-destruct.)
 

Agent Intellect

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I used to consciously mirror behaviour, thinking that people would recognise themselves and then reflect on the impact of their actions (with the knowledge of what it was like to be on the receiving end). When I finally broke and started yelling, that is essentially what I was doing. The old "dose of their own medicine" tactic, but it didn't work. The people I've known have been incredibly dense when it comes to recognising themselves. I completely failed in my objective, and too soon the mimicry settled in in earnest. Like I said - the door wouldn't close...

popular tactic of mine, too. especially at work. i work at a warehouse, loading and unloading semi trailers, with a bunch of college kids. while they're interesting enough to talk to, they simply suck at the job. they avoid doing actual work like its a roadkill skunk in the middle of the street. so, of course, any chance i get, i give them a taste of their own medicine. if they show up late, i leave early. so far nobody has made the connection, and have actually pointed the finger at me for my actions.
 

fullerene

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fantastic post... thank you! That part about everybody just trying to make the pain/emptiness go away actually sent a shiver down my spine.
 

Wisp

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Seriously, I think LoR should write a book. It would be epic. I'd buy it. For about 60 dollars.
 

Dissident

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"The INTP's Survival Guide" by LoR :p
Epic, indeed.

Id love to make some meaningful comment on the topic, but Im not up to the task, Im just learning here :D
 

Kuu

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I used to try y follows x type reasoning. I used to try to understand and discuss cause and effect. I used to look for understanding of the other's position and for solutions. I would explain myself. I used to think that if something was explained clearly that the misunderstanding would vanish.

Foolishly I thought everyone's primary concern was to get to the truth. Now I know the driving motivation of 99% of people 99% of the time is just to make the pain/emptiness go away. However briefly.

(...)

so perhaps the only useful thing I can conclude when it comes to dealing with conflict: beware the behaviour you mimic. Beware your own projections. Always have an escape route. (You'll never win the war when your adversary is engaging you as proxy for their self in some made-up arena from their own internal struggles - just get out of the room of mirrors and leave then to self-destruct.)
I've realized this truth throughout this year... but still I find it hard to just leave them to self-destruct. I fear that doing that is accepting also the impossibility of understanding and truly relating to others... and that's just too much.

This is why I sometimes I just don't want to see anyone. I can't fix them and they can't fix me, so just leave me alone and let's all spare us the pain and confusion...

Every time I get involved and try to help someone, it just doesn't work, in fact I end up messed up too... I can only give logical solutions, try to explain things... not be their emotional outlet. So there is this feeling of insurmountable separateness between the two. I just can't take it, the hopelessness and alienation...
 

Ogion

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Oh, you are so fast and i have too little opportunities to get to a computer with internet^

Nicely written lor. And some things to think about.
I don't know if i am good at 'looks' (since i don't see them), but i am good at 'sounds'. You know, when you grumble, you can express so many levels of approval or disapproval. And my parents really hate that, when i make some disapproval noise, but don't elaborate. But then, that's pretty much my only weapon when i have a discussion/fight with them, because my mother is pretty much unsurpassable in her arguing-skill. That is annoying, but it also lead to my tactic of retreat and introspection. You know, there you can more easily defend your position :p Sometimes i actively use that passive-aggressive behaviour to piss them of, but most of the times i just want to be left alone. But it is really annoying here. We (in this family) do not only have 'fights' over serious issues or so, but if we have a discussion about some random topic, and we (mostly me and my mom) have different views on it, we end up yelling at each other. And in the end nobody has move a bit in their stance. Quite uselesss.

So that may be the source from where my wish to absence of emotions may have come, but i still think harmony as in absence of (negative...only negative?) emotions is really desirable. And that of course comes easiest when being alone, doens't it?

Ogion
 

Agent Intellect

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its interesting to read how other people like me view emotions, but in a way i sort of question whether its healthy or not. reading about it makes me think "see, theres other people like me out there" and sort of vindicates me own emotions (or lack thereof). i've tried reading some other typology forums as of late, trying to broaden my horizons, but i just find the conversations that feelers have to be so... uninteresting. i scroll down the forum hoping to see a post titled something like "an explanation of emotions and why people feel them" but i suppose wanting a logical explanation of why people feel emotions is very much an INTP thing.
 
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