Dwelling on problems doesn't help

[Beat Mango]

I've been visiting a forum recently for people with anxiety, and about 9 out of 10 threads are someone whinging about some symptom they have. It's always the same, something like, "x symptom, please help!", or "y symptom, what do I do?!" These people don't get over their anxiety because they're dwelling on their problem, making it worse. I mean, it's fine to do it once to get some sense that you're not alone, but after that it just amplifies the problem by being overly aware of it.

Now coming back to this forum, I noticed a kind of similarity. It's not quite 9 out of 10, but there are a lot of threads where people are complaining about some social problem they have or are having, dwelling on it. I'm no exception - I've done plenty of times myself. What's more, people analyse this issue scrupulously, and what's even more, people think this analysing or "self-knowledge" will help things! It won't. Hyper-awareness is the last thing you want when socialising, hence why alcohol works so well, because it's an inhibitor. It also starts another detrimental line of thinking, which is, "I am INTP therefore I can't socialise properly". Untrue. I even went very deep into philosophy in order to solve my problem, to find what's wrong with me so I can fix it. But it doesn't work, it's just not something that logic can make better. For some reason, when we're confronted with a stressful situation such as, for most of us, a social one, we rely on our dominant functions to get us out of it. In our case, that would be Ti/Ne. But this just makes things more stressful, so we go deeper into our dominant functions, and the cycle begins. But what we should do is stop the cycle. If you find yourself going into hyper-Ti mode, it's probably a sign that you should pull back a bit, get stuck into something that doesn't require your Ti or Ne.

So from now on, I'm refraining from complaining. I realise that this will mean I might be posting a fair bit less, ha ha.

NB: this post isn't aimed at anyone in particular, mostly just myself.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I think you make a lot of sense with this post. It's okay in my view to ask about any problem you might have but we tend to dwell on things way too much for it to do us any good. I'm at my social best when I don't dwell (think) about how to 'deal' with the situation of being social. Sometimes that ol' Nike comercial had it right. Just do it.

 

[Mr.Burke]

I've been visiting a forum recently for people with anxiety, and about 9 out of 10 threads are someone whinging about some symptom they have. It's always the same, something like, "x symptom, please help!", or "y symptom, what do I do?!" These people don't get over their anxiety because they're dwelling on their problem, making it worse. I mean, it's fine to do it once to get some sense that you're not alone, but after that it just amplifies the problem by being overly aware of it.

Now coming back to this forum, I noticed a kind of similarity. It's not quite 9 out of 10, but there are a lot of threads where people are complaining about some social problem they have or are having, dwelling on it. I'm no exception - I've done plenty of times myself. What's more, people analyse this issue scrupulously, and what's even more, people think this analysing or "self-knowledge" will help things! It won't. Hyper-awareness is the last thing you want when socialising, hence why alcohol works so well, because it's an inhibitor. It also starts another detrimental line of thinking, which is, "I am INTP therefore I can't socialise properly". Untrue. I even went very deep into philosophy in order to solve my problem, to find what's wrong with me so I can fix it. But it doesn't work, it's just not something that logic can make better. For some reason, when we're confronted with a stressful situation such as, for most of us, a social one, we rely on our dominant functions to get us out of it. In our case, that would be Ti/Ne. But this just makes things more stressful, so we go deeper into our dominant functions, and the cycle begins. But what we should do is stop the cycle. If you find yourself going into hyper-Ti mode, it's probably a sign that you should pull back a bit, get stuck into something that doesn't require your Ti or Ne.

So from now on, I'm refraining from complaining. I realise that this will mean I might be posting a fair bit less, ha ha.

NB: this post isn't aimed at anyone in particular, mostly just myself.

Something to keep in mind: Whatever you do, nobody is watching. Based on this principle, I pretty much do whatever I feel like doing. Today, for example, I made faces at people who walked by and then followed them while dancing behind them. If they asked me what I was doing, I would immediately start spewing profanity at them and would be extremely aggressive (often making extremely vulgar threats about what objects I would pierce them with). You could say that I am not self conscious at all, I have become a narcissist and I treat other people like furniture. It is not that I believe that I cannot socialize properly, but the fact that I do not care about what other people (in a real life setting) have to say and therefore resort to mocking them at all times. I do not fight myself, I fight other people.

Also, I can't see myself using any other functions except N and T because the other functions are too disgusting for me to bare using.

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

I might dwell on things more than is good for my health and post about it but I'm not asking for help or advice or anything. I'm not closed to it but I just like to post what is on my mind. Helps me in a way. Not trying to be a depressed/depressing person but it does me no good to be fake and ignore my feelings/thoughts. They always come back to haunt me no matter how much I ignore/bury them

 

[Vrecknidj]

I have met some people who believe they have no need to improve themselves. I haven't met any who were right about that. (I will intentionally leave blank any definition of what I mean by self-improvement.)

I have met some people who are hyper-sensitive about their own failures and are almost always on the lookout for ways to fix themselves. In almost every case, they do in fact need to fix something, but, it's usually not what they think it is.

I think that asking for advice is usually a good idea for people. I think that it's also important to make sure you ask the right people. It simply is not true that everyone's opinion on every matter is equally valid. I understand why, for example, some INTPs will come here looking for help. And, in some cases, I think that the advice given really is helpful (actually, in many cases, there is a lot of useful help offered).

But, this place can only do so much. Some of the social anxiety issues, for instance, really would be better addressed in other ways.

And, while tongue-in-cheek I may favor a drink or two to calm the nerves, in general, I'm not disposed to agree. Chemical reliance is not the way to go if what someone is after is real change.

Dave

 

[Firehazard159]

I think you make a lot of sense with this post. It's okay in my view to ask about any problem you might have but we tend to dwell on things way too much for it to do us any good. I'm at my social best when I don't dwell (think) about how to 'deal' with the situation of being social. Sometimes that ol' Nike comercial had it right. Just do it.

^ This.

As tough as it is to do, even if I *am* dwelling on something, just try to push past that barrier, no matter how foreign it feels and act. It still takes me a ridiculous amount of courage to do it most of the time, and I usually procrastinate until the very last second, but once I do it, I feel so much better, and it generally turns out far more positive than not.

You've only got one life to live, you can choose to live it, or think about living it. I try to keep in mind both quotes for N vs S's. "The unexamined life is not worth living." As well as "A life not lived isn't worth examining." (Not sure if I got them exactly right, but the gist of it is there.

Without any actual experience to examine, all that thinking power does no good. We're known for living in the past and the future, and rarely the present; we tend to dwell on both the past and the future. Just do it. Add the experience in to the dwellings :P stop letting opportunity pass us by.

That said, I don't think it's always dwelling to talk about your issues. Sometimes one just needs to vent, or know that other people understand / know where you're coming from. Previous to finding this forum, I felt pretty alienated and weird, but now I see that there *are* people who think like me, who see the world through a similar process. I no longer need to dwell so much on how different I am; the experience of finding this community has 'cured' that dwelling, so to speak. Just like asking the girl for her number cures the dwelling on how she'll react. I know I tend to get pigeonholed by my thinking into inaction.

Maybe we all just need to start wearing Nikes, and when we begin to doubt / dwell, and avoiding peoples eyes by looking down, we'll see our shoes and see "Just do it!" and become inspired to action!

...Maybe. Haha.

 

[Latro]

Also, I can't see myself using any other functions except N and T because the other functions are too disgusting for me to bare using.

You just used Fi. See how that works?

Anyhow, this does kinda make sense, but then it also has some problems. Like, when you have no idea even where to start socially...how can you avoid this kind of thing? Surely you have to sit down and come up with something to try to get around it, right? I mean, continuing with your habits as is will turn you into...well, me, the guy that sits on forums all day (or plays games at home all day, whatever) on the weekends except when, on a rare occasion, his tiny handful of friends have an activity in mind. The guy that intentionally finds a quiet corner to read in (literally a corner; I intentionally find small spaces) while waiting for class to start. Etc.

 

[fullerene]

You just used Fi. See how that works?

lol!

I have met some people who are hyper-sensitive about their own failures and are almost always on the lookout for ways to fix themselves. In almost every case, they do in fact need to fix something, but, it's usually not what they think it is.

^^thank you so much for this. I think it may end up helping solve someone else I know's problems . At least, it'll help a lot when I'm talking to and working with them.


BM, I think you're half-right. First, I want to say "thank for saying you don't see much of a difference here." I read your first paragraph, and was thinking "do you know how many threads say "problem: is this an INTP thing?" around here?

In general, though, I think your way of going about solving problems is unhelpful. Some people just want practical advice, or to forget about the problem and do their best to ignore it, so that's fine. If you say what you just said to someone whose deeper problem is feeling alone, though, then you just made it worse by not listening to their complaints. Especially if you're dealing with people who have been bullied a lot, which then results in depression or whatever else, "suck it up, stop being a baby, and deal with your shit" probably doesn't help the problem either.

Also: I think you're impressing Ti onto other peoples' problems. Obviously, that makes sense here--but I'd be willing to bet that a large chunk of the social anxiety folks are just looking for validation. People like to have other people acknowledge that their problems are real problems in the same way that cooks like watching other people enjoy their food. There's probably an element of "I like making people happy" in there, but there's also probably a lot of "I'm glad someone appreciates my cooking skills."

I think that more often than not, the social anxiety folks are probably just a bit confused about what they need. They need validation from people who don't have social anxiety, but they want validation in general--so they go to people who are most likely to agree with and validate them. This may help and it may not, but if you want to address their needs, then you ought to be the non-SA person who appreciates their situation and says they're willing to help if the person wants it; you don't want to be the one who says "you're wasting your time. Stop it." but the one who helps them gently redirect their attention in more helpful directions.

...my two cents, anyway.

 

[Jesin]

I have met some people who are hyper-sensitive about their own failures and are almost always on the lookout for ways to fix themselves. In almost every case, they do in fact need to fix something, but, it's usually not what they think it is.

I was sorta like that for a little while. I later realized it and got over it, though.

 

[TH2346752]

here's a webpage that you might find interesting: www.innerself.com/Creating_Realities/thank_you_11072.htm

 

[snowqueen]

here's a webpage that you might find interesting: www.innerself.com/Creating_Realities/thank_you_11072.htm

Actually that webpage nearly made me puke.

 

[Beat Mango]

BM, I think you're half-right. First, I want to say "thank for saying you don't see much of a difference here." I read your first paragraph, and was thinking "do you know how many threads say "problem: is this an INTP thing?" around here?

In general, though, I think your way of going about solving problems is unhelpful. Some people just want practical advice, or to forget about the problem and do their best to ignore it, so that's fine. If you say what you just said to someone whose deeper problem is feeling alone, though, then you just made it worse by not listening to their complaints. Especially if you're dealing with people who have been bullied a lot, which then results in depression or whatever else, "suck it up, stop being a baby, and deal with your shit" probably doesn't help the problem either.

Also: I think you're impressing Ti onto other peoples' problems. Obviously, that makes sense here--but I'd be willing to bet that a large chunk of the social anxiety folks are just looking for validation. People like to have other people acknowledge that their problems are real problems in the same way that cooks like watching other people enjoy their food. There's probably an element of "I like making people happy" in there, but there's also probably a lot of "I'm glad someone appreciates my cooking skills."

I think that more often than not, the social anxiety folks are probably just a bit confused about what they need. They need validation from people who don't have social anxiety, but they want validation in general--so they go to people who are most likely to agree with and validate them. This may help and it may not, but if you want to address their needs, then you ought to be the non-SA person who appreciates their situation and says they're willing to help if the person wants it; you don't want to be the one who says "you're wasting your time. Stop it." but the one who helps them gently redirect their attention in more helpful directions.

...my two cents, anyway.

I don't know what you mean by your first paragraph there, sorry.

As for the rest, well, I'm well aware that a) anything I say is subjective, and b) my words, as any, can be misinterpreted. That's why I added the disclaimer - this post was for me, if it helps anyone else in the process, great, I don't want to make it universal. I understand the need to vent. But I, perhaps a bit more obsessive than most, tend to get addicted to the short-term relief that comes with knowing there are others in the same boat as me. But it's important for me to realise that that's all it is, short-term relief. I like what Vreck said: "this place can only do so much".

You've only got one life to live, you can choose to live it, or think about living it. I try to keep in mind both quotes for N vs S's. "The unexamined life is not worth living." As well as "A life not lived isn't worth examining." (Not sure if I got them exactly right, but the gist of it is there.

Yeah I remember someone posting that, that's a good one.

 

[EditorOne]

...there are a lot of threads where people are complaining about some social problem they have or are having, dwelling on it. I'm no exception - I've done plenty of times myself. What's more, people analyse this issue scrupulously, and what's even more, people think this analysing or "self-knowledge" will help things! It won't. Hyper-awareness is the last thing you want when socialising...

Ah, but here's the thing: For a great many of us, this is the first place we've ever been where we can talk about this stuff with others who are JUST LIKE US. The real value for a lot of folks coming here is reassurance that we're not alone and being an INTP is survivable. Tips on how to successfully navigate the non-INTP world are invaluable. And just an end to the loneliness is a welcome relief, even to a seasoned introvert like me. Really, I manage to come here two or three times a week, and I never fail to find something posted that refreshes, intrigues, amuses or reassures me.

Don't shut yourself down. This may be the only place in the world you can open up and not be exploited, dissed or patronized.

 

[preilemus]

I've been visiting a forum recently for people with anxiety, and about 9 out of 10 threads are someone whinging about some symptom they have. It's always the same, something like, "x symptom, please help!", or "y symptom, what do I do?!" These people don't get over their anxiety because they're dwelling on their problem, making it worse. I mean, it's fine to do it once to get some sense that you're not alone, but after that it just amplifies the problem by being overly aware of it.

I think youre assuming too much when you say that people arent getting over it. Sure, maybe not people in general; everyone's got some sort of problem, hence the perpetuality of those types of threads, but I would say that on the individual level, getting advice on an issue you face can be, and many times is, beneficial. This can be attested by the evidence that these threads are rarely made by the same people continually.

Bringing up a problem shows that on some level, that person wants to find a way to get through it, so i find it difficult to accept that complaining about a problem means someone has accepted their fate as a bad socializer, or whatever.

From my personal experience, dwelling on a problem in my head eventually makes me start to confront it. "why am I like this?", " is there a solution, or a way to cope?", etc.

Sure you could ignore your perceived shortcomings (ignorance is bliss, maybe?), but is that really going to solve anything? After all, when you get an infection, you dont ignore it and hope it goes away, you identify it, and then destroy it with medicine!

Of course there is something to be said for "just doing it." of course this approach isnt ignoring your fears, its a decision that they are in fact, silly.

My theory is that problems arent ignored, theyre confrontationally defeated.

 

[merzbau]

most intps know what it's like to finally crack through a problem after dwelling on it for ages. so it that sense it does help. but overthinking can sometimes be disastrous. i've talked myself out of doing things a billion times, but afterwards i always felt slightly pissed with myself for letting other people's opinions get to me.

at the end of the day, so what if people think you're a dork? who cares if they're judging you? they're idiots, and besides, they have just the same fears and doubts as you do. if you allow other people's opinions to dictate what you do with your life, you'll never go anywhere or do anything.

a lot of people like to complain and play the victim for sympathy, but you'll never grow, never evolve and become whole if you don't challenge your boundaries.
you can either avoid situations and be lazy, or you can bite your lip and trudge through and become a better person for it.

 

[sagewolf]

Banana (calling you BM just... no. I won't.), to an extent I think you're right, but I also think there's more to all those threads existing than just dwelling on problems. Generally, unless something brilliant is happening in their lives, people tend to tell other people about whatever horrible, bad, or even mildly annoying things have happened to them before they concentrate on the good. Some part of the human mind is just preset to focus on bad before good-- and that includes our problems. Dwelling on them definitely doesn't solve them, but it's also probably more than just self-indulgent behaviour. I doubt never talking about your problems is any better for you. There might be some benefit to discussing it-- or just unloading, as was said-- as far as stress or anxiety goes.

 

[Xel]

While I agree that analyzing the problem doesn't really make it go away, it satisfies the need to complain about the problem and to get a full view on the situation. Once my problem is understood the need to complain is gone. The problem still exists but its no longer a problem but it is more like simply an event that happens. Now that I am overly aware of situation I have no need to complain about it since I "get it" now. I like to complain, especially if I don't understand what I'm complaining about. Once the complaining is done and everything is understood, there is a satisfaction in it.

As for actually fixing the problem... ha yeah right. That would require effort and stepping outside my comfort zone. "Just do it" is not what I do. I deeply distrust such statements. Idiots "just do it" and idiots prove controlling people right. That is probably the wrong way to think about problems that relate to being an INTP. I'm never going to overcome anything if I don't actually try...

 

[merzbau]

obviously, it's sensible to explore the angles before jumping in headfirst, just don't go overboard worrying about every tiny thing.

 

[echoplex]

I don't know that people usually think the self-analysis will actually help things. I think it's often just a way to come up with a strategy they feel will actually work. Perhaps the development of that strategy is viewed as a success by some people, even though it doesn't actually solve the problem. After all, some problems are just too intimidating to tackle without understanding them better than most.

 

[snowqueen]

I have another perspective which is that because INTPs have low Fi, we actually don't quite connect with our distress until we see it out in the open. It's kind of paradoxical - I can actually cope with very unpleasant emotions because I can be detached from them but I can't always deal with them in a practical way and move on until I discuss them. So I know that once I've written about them or talked about them I immediately feel enormous relief - yes, sometimes they come back in decreasing waves, but that process does seem to promote moving beyond the bad feeling.

Personally I would rather not feel anything much and I don't like it when I have bad feelings so I want to get rid of them as quickly as possible. Conversely, I don't really care that much about feeling good or happy so I maybe don't pursue activities or friends to generate good feelings which is what maybe F-types do better. So that means I might end up miserable only because I haven't tried to be happy. That sounds screwy but I have a hunch that others on here might understand that.

 

[walfin]

Generally, unless something brilliant is happening in their lives, people tend to tell other people about whatever horrible, bad, or even mildly annoying things have happened to them before they concentrate on the good.

What I thought too. When we're getting stuff done, we're not on INTPf. The stuff written here might be biased in that way.

 

[Beat Mango]

Actually to put it in perspective, what made me think of this was that I added this person with social anxiety on twitter. I hope she doesn't mind me using her as fodder for my analysis, but she has an approach for dealing with it that is far different to my own: she looks to form a kind of community in order share positive experiences with them (yeah, must be an F), whereas I analyse the crap out of myself, looking to find the "problem" so I can thereby fix it. At first I thought her approach was stupid and I was going to stop following her on twitter, but after a while I came to the opinion that there's actually a lot to be gained from it - not to be used exclusively, but just as a counter-balance to my usual hyper-introspective analysis. It's not a denial of the problem, not at all, it's just a different approach to managing it.

So from that point of view you can kind of see that I'm not against venting, I'm just guarding myself against the trap of thinking that introspection and analysis can solve everything. And bear in mind that I have anxiety issues that mean I have to be more careful than most.

I don't know that people usually think the self-analysis will actually help things.

Fair enough, then this thread is not aimed at people like them. This thread is aimed at people like me who burden their analysis with the expectation of some sort of major life improvement - to illustrate, the reason I studied philosophy so deeply was essentially for therapy. I have always been one to ruminate, and the same questions I ruminated on were the same ones being asked in philosophy, so it was logical to think that somewhere in all the mess of philosophical texts I would find some sort of answers to these questions. I thought, no, assumed, that I would eventually come to a conclusion, a kind of "aha" moment that would lead me to peace of mind and the good life. But you know what, it doesn't work like that. Like they say in Zen, "chop wood, carry water". Good advice for wackos like me.

 

[TH2346752]

Actually that webpage nearly made me puke.

Thank you for everything. I have no complaint whatsoever.

 

[snowqueen]

Thank you for everything. I have no complaint whatsoever.

Well at least you don't have to think of anything original to say or do in response It has that advantage I guess.

 

[TH2346752]

Well at least you don't have to think of anything original to say or do in response It has that advantage I guess.

When it comes to whining and complaining, that one line is all that needs to be said. But depending on what activity we happened to be involved in, I would probably have plenty of original things to say.

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

I prefer internal silence of the mind. Or external chemicals applied to the mind with a calming effect.

 

[Carnap]

I can really tap into my E for a night out, I can be quite the charmer, it's the bipolar lack of inhibition in me that comes with the territory. However, if I do ever live with people, I'll really have to work on both my introversion and my lack of temper control which is unrelated.