Do we 'Asperger'?

[Da Blob]

Asperger syndrome and interpersonal relationships

(from wiki)

The lack of demonstrated empathy is possibly the most dysfunctional aspect of Asperger syndrome.[2]

Individuals with AS experience difficulties in basic elements of social interaction, which may include a failure to develop friendships or to seek shared enjoyments or achievements with others (for example, showing others objects of interest), a lack of social or emotional reciprocity, and impaired nonverbal behaviors in areas such as eye contact, facial expression, posture, and gesture.[1]

Unlike those with autism
, people with AS are not usually withdrawn around others; they approach others, even if awkwardly, for example by engaging in a one-sided, long-winded speech about a favorite topic while misunderstanding or not recognizing the listener's feelings or reactions, such as need for privacy or haste to leave.[5] This social awkwardness has been called "active but odd".[1]

This failure to react appropriately to social interaction may appear as disregard for other people's feelings, and may come across as insensitive.[5] The cognitive ability of children with AS often lets them articulate social norms in a laboratory context,[1] where

they may be able to show a theoretical understanding of other people's emotions; they typically have difficulty acting on this knowledge in fluid, real-life situations, however.[5] People with AS may analyze and distill their observation of social interaction into rigid behavioral guidelines and apply these rules in awkward ways—such as forced eye contact—resulting in demeanor that appears rigid or socially naive. Childhood desires for companionship can be numbed through a history of failed social encounters.[1]

Does any of this seem familiar?

If so, I wonder if there are any 'fun' medications available...

 

[Decaf]

I won't get too soapboxy, but I think that Asperger's is just another sign of the psychology community's pathologizing innate differences. Children diagnosed with Aspergers rarely show signs of the "affliction" later in life. What does that tell you? Perhaps a non-majority developmental path? Why is this is disorder that should be medicated when so many get through childhood and go on to become highly successful without any drugs?

Yeah, there are definitely parts of childhood that suck for us, but drugs don't fix those problems. They just remove the symptoms that motivate us to grow beyond them.

OK, I'm done.

*breaks down soapbox for kindling*

 

[sagewolf]

We have a thread about this already: INTP and Asperger's

I wouldn't say INTPness and Asperger's/autism are the same thing. My brother has mild autism (extremely mild, with a coeliac diet) and my sister has severe. My brother doesn't seem like an INTP in a lot of ways.

First, he's extremely extraverted. He was always described, from the earliest reports before he could even talk, as a warm, enthusiastic child. He always made eye contact and interacted willingly with others. I'm by far the opposite: if there are other people there, I ignore them and hope they'll ignore me, unless they're my friends.

My brother shows no ability to understand metaphor, or even realise that it isn't a metaphor. Once, when my mother used the phrase 'that really stinks' to refer to a family situation, my brother nodded and suggested she open a window. He thought something really did smell bad. I have never had a problem like this.

My brother is extremely hyperactive. He runs back and forth, engages in 'tinning' (hitting himself repeatedly and rapidly on the chest) and flaps his hands a lot when he's stressed. I am, if at all possible, inactive at any given moment; when I'm stressed I try to go hide and lie down for a while, just thinking until I forget whatever I was stressed about. (Although I do have my manic creative episodes once a month or less often.)

I have more, but I definitely don't think AS/autism is the same as INTP. And Decaf, I agree with you a ZILLION times. A lot of diseases-but-not-diseases don't need to be medicated at all. My mother was told, when I was younger, that I had ADHD and I don't know, maybe it was recommended that she drug me. I'm glad she didn't (although it may just have been that we were poor xP). My brother gets no medication for his autism, except that coeliac diet, and that's not a drug. Now I'm borderline clinically depressed; when the doctor asked me if I would want/take drugs if he prescribed them, I flat-out said no and he smiled. I'm glad I have a sensible GP.

 

[Da Blob]

I agree, and I think that the greater Society has a tendency, to view anyone who is 'different' as suffering from some kind of disorder. That includes the 'disorder' of Intelligence!

I think the reason that I might be diagnosed somewhere on the Autistic Spectrum or as being Schizoid, is that I have been 'herded' into certain behaviors by those who simply don't get it. They do not see my coherency, they have no way of "ascending" to my POV.
Yet, because we are a minority, we suffer from being stigmatized, even by professionals, Who Really Should 'Know" Better...

Yet at the same time, we do seem to exhibit those qualities bespoken of...

 

[Jordan~]

The major differences between one with Aspergers and an INTP are that INTPs generally have a very broad range of interests, and that we understand the more subtle parts of interpersonal communication - the INTP wit, for example, is often noted; and we're good jusged of character, in my experience.

 

[Ermine]

Another is that we eventually learn the subtleties of interpersonal relationships while those with Aspergers never comprehend them.

 

[Decaf]

What I would love to see are the case studies that bear that out. I don't doubt they exist, but all the case studies I've read about or the descriptions on its most common traits (from Asperger's Syndrome by Tony Attwodd) I have my doubts as to its existance. I wonder if the general INTP struggles were successfully disentangled if we might build a more exacting model of what goes on in the residual cases.

 

[Jordan~]

Those cases, we call "INTJs". >>
Perhaps that's unfair.
Anyway, so long as "treatment" is optional, I don't see any reason not to allow it. I can't see myself ever seeking medical assistance for anything psychological - it would be too much like losing a part of myself. My friends are fairly sure I have major depressive epsiodes, I'm fairly sure I have hypomanic episodes, but I'd never want to take medication to suppress either. Maybe at the height or depth an episode I might, but when I'm calm, rational me, I reject the idea entirely. Aren't personality "disorders" just the extremes or personality - or any mental disorders? Everyone's personality causes them problems, some people's just cause them a lot more.

 

[Luzian]

I wonder is asperger sounds like "ass burger"

 

[Da Blob]

Actually, from the way Personality Disorders are currently classified into three clusters, it is rather difficult to make generalization. I understand that there is a major effort in the research of personality, so that when the new DSM-V is published there's going to be an entirely different way of classifying them (?)
The rule of thumb I use is that a Personality Disorder is actually a perfectly normal pattern of behavior at some stage of a child's development, but the disorders generate when development halts at that stage for some reason, so o that in the future Personality Disorders may be classified as a type of developmental disorder...

I think that POV (If Valid) can offer the hope that someone who suffers from a PD might be able to outgrow it and therefore medication or long-term therapy may no longer be the treatment of choice...

 

[sagewolf]

According to my brother/sister's psychiatrist/speech therapist/occupational therapist (sorry--I can't keep those women straight. I never bloody see them anyway and they're almost all called Mary) Autism/AS is classed as a developmental disorder.

Based on what I see of my brother and sister, that is the case-- they grow out of it, but slowly. Thing is, once they've grown out of certain deficiencies, there are new ones for them to grow out of. But they get better every day, if we address their problems and help them overcome them. We constantly work with them, little games and things to build up their skills.

 

[Decaf]

As an intellectual exercise this is all fine. Allow people to try to deal with their maladies as they and their loved ones see fit. What about Social Services? If a psychiatrist decides that your loved one has Aspergers and believes that medication is the best way to treat it, can depriving the child of that medication be considered child abuse? Mental health has always been a tricky area, but that has precedent with physical maladies (even some examples where the medication was eventually taken off the market as it proved to be more detrimental than helpful, i.e. epilepsy medicine).

Even if Child Protective Services doesn't intervene, they can be used as a threat (and thus a source of coercion) to get a parent to fall in line with what the doctor and school (as they are often involved at this point) believe it right.

OK, I'm going off on a tangent, but it is a real threat with how the system is currently set up. Until that changes, I can't take a "wait and see" approach to deciding how these developmental disorders shake out in the world of pharmaceutical care.

 

[echoplex]

Nah, I'm extremely socially aware, maybe too much. I just think too much.

 

[sagewolf]

@Decaf: I think the system here is different to the one in America. It may have something to do (enter inner cynic) with the fact that the Irish Government pays for all our medication because we're poor and have medical cards, so they don't want to prescribe anything here.

Actually, being serious and honest, the Irish system has a BIG problem with NEVER intervening with the way in which (a) parent/s raise(s) their children. If the person raising the child is the biological parent, then Social Services basically have their hands tied in the face of all but the most gruesome abuse, because the Irish constitution enshrines the familial unit as the most healthy place for the child. Even if my parents decided to tie my siblings to a chair and beat them as a way to "cure" their autism, the Health Board probably couldn't do anything.

I'm assisting you in wandering off on that tangent, but we are under a different system, so it might not be the same if we still lived in America. (I was going to have braces just before we moved: they were going to make me take them because my teeth were 'wrong'. In Belfast, though, the doctor heard my mom mention them and turned to me: "Do you want to fix that gap between your front teeth or do you like it the way it is?" Me: "I like it." He turned to my mom and nodded at her. Matter settled. No braces.)

 

[Da Blob]

Actually, being serious and honest, the Irish system has a BIG problem with NEVER intervening with the way in which (a) parent/s raise(s) their children. If the person raising the child is the biological parent, then Social Services basically have their hands tied in the face of all but the most gruesome abuse, because the Irish constitution enshrines the familial unit as the most healthy place for the child. Even if my parents decided to tie my siblings to a chair and beat them as a way to "cure" their autism, the Health Board probably couldn't do anything.

Oddly enough that is exactly how my father tried to "Cure" my younger brother of his ADHD, he saw the condition not as a medical problem, but rather as one of deliberate disobedience..

 

[Anling]

It does seem that people think that medication is the way to fix everything. And people do get pushy about making you take it. My nephew is hyperachive and the teachers decided they wouldn't let him in class anymore unless he was medicated.

 

[Zealot]

Hm... some of those things you listed sound remarkably similar to me. However, as I figured out a long time ago, the internet can't diagnose you with anything.

 

[Jordan~]

If the child has Asperger's, let the child decide whether or not it should be treated. He may be "only a child", but at the same time, the adult doesn't need to live with it. Never having experienced something is a much larger impediment to making a good decision about it than age is.

 

[FacetiousPersona]

Numerous professionals have inquired if I suffer from Asperger's syndrome (teachers, social works, etc). A psychiatrist that assessed me a while ago thought that any diagnosis was unnecessary and characterized my behaviour as merely my personality. He thought that the tendencies to perceive information 'logically' and be unemotional were not sufficient for a diagnosis. People with little understanding of the condition seem to have approaching life in a very detached, objective and logical manner as a symptom. If I am very logical, I might be a Asperger's snydrome to them, for I am not considering the emotional elements of reality much. This is silly to me and I truly doubt that I am afflicted with it.

 

[sagewolf]

If the child has Asperger's, let the child decide whether or not it should be treated. He may be "only a child", but at the same time, the adult doesn't need to live with it. Never having experienced something is a much larger impediment to making a good decision about it than age is.

The child has never experienced 'normality'; the psychologist/psychiatrist that diagnosed him has no experience of the world he perceives. Medication may do more harm than good, and I would be extremely wary of giving a young child any drug, because of the disproportionate effect it might have on his brain. The child doesn't know what it might do to him; he doesn't know that normality is something he wants.

I would also be wary of giving a child any indication that there is a general consensus on the fact that there's something wrong with the way he thinks and the person he is. Telling him there's a pill that can make him think differently and offering it to him implies to him that that's the case, and stuff like that can really come back and bite you on the ass around the teenage (read: angsty) years or in early adulthood, when the person has a chance to look back and remember what happened with a more mature point of view. (There's a better way to express that but I cant think of it. Stupid brain no worky. )

 

[hopefulmonster]

I won't get too soapboxy, but I think that Asperger's is just another sign of the psychology community's pathologizing innate differences. Children diagnosed with Aspergers rarely show signs of the "affliction" later in life. What does that tell you? Perhaps a non-majority developmental path? Why is this is disorder that should be medicated when so many get through childhood and go on to become highly successful without any drugs?

Yeah, there are definitely parts of childhood that suck for us, but drugs don't fix those problems. They just remove the symptoms that motivate us to grow beyond them.

OK, I'm done.

*breaks down soapbox for kindling*

Um not true at all aspergians remain aspergians throughout their lives they just cope better. Also the ONLY medication approved for autistic spectrum disorders is risperdal which is used to cope with sensory/rage issues. The other meds are used for comorbid conditions like ADHD ,depression and OCD. In fact treatment guidelines suggest you don't pursue medication unless they present with a distressing comorbid condition(which granted we always do so meh)

There have been documented differences between people on the spectrum and "normals". We deal with sensory input differently, tend to have smaller amagdylas, and there also seems to be strong evidence for a genetic link. For example a child with an autistic dad is iirc 8x more likely to have an ASD...4x the risk if the dad has bipolar disorder,4x the risk if the mother is autistic and 2x the risk if the mother is bipolar.
The list of neurological "quirks" we tend to have gos on and on. Look up synthestesia/austism,hyperlexia,edetic memory/austim, temple grandin and visiospatial skills, face blindness/austism, oh and any of your 5 senses "enhanced" and autism. 85% of aspergians report enhanced senses. I myself can hear sounds above the normal human range especially in the high decibels...can see colors outside of the normal spectrum for human females(I'm a dude) and don't even try to make me wear a shirt with a F%$%kin tag. WE EXIST!

In answer to the op: I have long suspected a link between ASDs and INTPs and INTJs. Wrongplanet a forum for people with aspergers had a thread where we all took the mbti. 75% scored as intp,intj or istj(25,25,25 respectively).

 

[hopefulmonster]

I agree, and I think that the greater Society has a tendency, to view anyone who is 'different' as suffering from some kind of disorder. That includes the 'disorder' of Intelligence!

I think the reason that I might be diagnosed somewhere on the Autistic Spectrum or as being Schizoid, is that I have been 'herded' into certain behaviors by those who simply don't get it. They do not see my coherency, they have no way of "ascending" to my POV.
Yet, because we are a minority, we suffer from being stigmatized, even by professionals, Who Really Should 'Know" Better...

Yet at the same time, we do seem to exhibit those qualities bespoken of...

Dablog the diagnosis depends on a lot more then being viewed as"different" read my above post. I learned how to read before I could speak, have a host of sensory issues, have extreme difficulty "imagining" faces(all the characters in my fantasy play had blank faces) let alone remembering them. It took years for me to develop more then one friend and I have the infamous"meltdowns" there is a lot more going on here then being a wee bit different.

 

[Spacedoubt]

A lot of people on http://www.wrongplanet.net have Aspergers and an INTP personality. A person can be both.

Someone said earlier in this thread that INTPs can read social cues and subtle expressions. I understand metaphors and idioms, but I often have difficulty reading people's intentions. Looking at their faces, I don't if they're serious much of the time. And when they don't understand my sarcasm, I don't know why.

I also have a terrible time recognizing people, even people that I see a lot. I have a high IQ, but parts of my brain just aren't on. I don't know how else to explain it.

 

[Da Blob]

A lot of people on http://www.wrongplanet.net have Aspergers and an INTP personality. A person can be both.

Someone said earlier in this thread that INTPs can read social cues and subtle expressions. I understand metaphors and idioms, but I often have difficulty reading people's intentions. Looking at their faces, I don't if they're serious much of the time. And when they don't understand my sarcasm, I don't know why.

I also have a terrible time recognizing people, even people that I see a lot. I have a high IQ, but parts of my brain just aren't on. I don't know how else to explain it.

I do not think you alone in this, at least not here on this forum. I also have a 'high' IQ, and I can do some things extraordinarily well. However, it seems that these rare talents come at a cost. There are some very common talents, I seem to be missing...

 

[ohrtonz]

I google searched something like "why im mean to stupid people" and stumbled across a long article of someone with Aspergers explaining his life. I could relate to a lot. I took some online tests and got 50% on each. I researched for a bout a week. But I never wanted to say I have it, just that some the traits could help explain. I don't want to give myself a "disorder" by which people should make exceptions for me. I am a lot more comfortable now just saying my personality type is INTP. I guess depending on the situation, if needed, I will explain a trait of INTP and say "hey this is just how i am, understand that".

I think people want to drug us because they can't deal with us and want us to go in line. Mom always thinks I need medication for my stubbornness whenever i argue with her because she never keeps her story straight and can't comprehend anything. Claims I should listen to her because she is a nurse. But yet says she disagrees when doctors try to put meds on you for everything. She says crazy things like "I'm not burning leaves! I'm just throwing them on the fire!" while she was actively tossing them on the fire. Delusional by her intent to burn word, but just so happened to want to get rid of a few leaves while she was at it.

Ah far off the subject hehe. Little anecdote

 

[Razare]

I exhibit autism-like behaviors. If these things were multiplied in intensity and I had no control over them, I could be autistic. But I don't know... I'm not autistic or AS.

So it's like, I bet there's some subtle difference in the brain that causes AS and autism, and various degrees of it.

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

I like to refer to myself as socially retarded, maybe AS maybe not, who cares, I definitely struggle in this ever-increasingly hypersocial world, one benefit, I am immune to most social taboos

I still have morals, I feel empathy, just doesn't show, I feel wierd just touching people, never was one of those guys that got lots of hugs from the girls, always got used for a ride or weed/alcohol and no benefits, now I have 3 people and whoever they happen to be hanging out with I associate with and not very often at that.

 

[uth]

I think Asperger's symptoms seems to correspond more to INTJ traits than ours. Our traits correspond more to ADHD.

I can easily recognize sarcasm, and pick up on social cues. In fact, I have a tendancy to rely too much on non-verbal cues.

 

[Ahava]

I was thinking about this the other day, actually... I've always considered myself to have some form of Asperger's, although I also believe Asperger's to be a type of personality, and not necessarily a "disorder."

If we go by the lack of supposed "emotions" and the use of logic in INTP's, it's pretty easy to see the correlations between Aspergers and INTP's.

 

[walfin]

There's probably some correlation (I read somewhere that most aspies type as INTP, INTJ, or ISTJ) but aspies are probably a relatively small subset of INTPs.

Aspies are supposed to be "highly functional" anyway, so I suppose that's fine.

I think I might be an undiagnosed aspie.

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

Asperger's is part of a Spectrum of Autism. I think there is a further Spectrum of Asperger's. I think I am relatively low on the aspie scale, if I even am at all anymore. When I was a kid I had no understanding of sarcasm and couldn't understand why people always picked on me. I still don't understand/ could care less about certain types of social cues.(birthdays, holidays, etc....the only thing I got out of those is presents and now that I'm an adult not so much. I've never even gotten birthday sex so imagine how pissed I am that they made a stupid song about it!) Now I can understand sarcasm most of the time but if I am drunk and really really high(more often with alcohol or a combo of both as I don't like to get extremely blitzed from smoking unless I am very depressed or pissed off) sometimes I'll fall into gullibility and lose my sense to understand sarcasm/ joking around and can become easy to mess with sometimes. Especially when I become desperate for female attention and people tell me things to say to a certain girl. And I'll be stupid enough to believe it at the time. Or maybe I just don't present myself properly. Who knows? Either way there has been more than one occasion I have pissed off females and other people in this manner. Every time it happens it just reassures me that pot is way better for me than alcohol and that the predominant SJ alcoholic society needs to die and more legal and easily available alternatives to alcohol and cigarettes need to be made available.(not a literal death, just that the prevailing attitudes and misconceptions need to go away.) Fuck society is my motto

Edit: also there is a movie coming out in smaller theaters called ADAM about a guy with asperger's. The whole romantic comedy aspect of it completely turns me off but I wanna see how they portray an asperger person in a movie. I will be highly surprised if I don't leave this movie really pissed.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1185836/

 

[Da Blob]

Hmm, the thread that has not died. I have been interested in Autism for three or four decades now, ever since I read "Children of a Different God" as a teen. There is a clinical Autistic spectrum that really is not well defined that includes perhaps unrelated disorders based upon similar symptoms. I belong somewhere on the scale, high functioning Asperger, Schizoid or perhaps the extreme pole of just being a run-of -the -mill INTPian. There is one thing that seemingly all of these conditions have in common a difficulty making the word, We, have any meaning. Supposedly most humans have something called a social identity - something to do with relationships where that word is used.

I believe that the philosophy of Solipsism is more reality based than most. I believe quite a few individuals live in a Solipsistic universe and simply can not deal cognitively and/or emotionally with the politically-correct, current social version of reality...