Dating an INTJ?

[yarnosh]

Hey all,

New user, first time poster. Not sure if this is the appropriate forum to ask, but here goes...

I recently met an interesting INTJ on a dating site and we plan on meeting next week. It is not often that I meet people that I really admire (and are cute!) so I'd really like to NOT screw this up. Now, I know INTJ is not on the short list of compatible matches for INTPs (at least for male INTPs). I'm sure it is that way for a reason, but I'd like to try to push my boundaries and embrace the differences while still having fun.

Does anyone here have experience with this pairing? Particularly male INTP and female INTJ? What should I watch out for?

 

[Adymus]

Actually they are a great pairing, INTJs have all of the cognitive functions we don't and they use them in an order that are inspiring to us.

But yeah, currently no experience with them, but I am in the process of getting to know a certain INTJ lady, and hoping to turn it into something.

Maybe we can keep each other updated?

 

[Cavallier]

You should check out the INTJ Forum. Going there might help "explain" INTJs better than we can.

 

[Trebuchet]

Does anyone here have experience with this pairing? Particularly male INTP and female INTJ? What should I watch out for?

I dearly love my INTJ husband. He is my favorite person in the world. We dated for 8 years before getting married 11 years ago, so we've been together a long time, and we are one of the happiest, most compatible couples I know. It is because we both work hard at the relationship and follow our three rules:

1. Never take each other for granted.
2. Use good manners with each other.
3. Don't ask hard questions before coffee in the morning.

Honestly, I can't imagine a better match for me. All that stuff about ideal pairings is only statistical, but when you talk about individuals it doesn't really apply.

My husband values loyalty (not a problem for most INTPs), intelligent conversation (likewise), and listening without being judgmental (more of a challenge). He provides the same in return.

I recommend listening to her language very carefully and doing everything you can to be clear in your communications with her. Always respect her intellect, and be very, very careful with criticism. But if you feel a good connection with your INTJ, you could be in for a very happy relationship. Good luck!

 

[ashitaria]

The INTJ and me always butt heads. >.>

Everything becomes an intellectual competition. (Usually along the lines of exchanging witty insults for 15 minutes straight before one of us runs out. There is a re-match every week.)

The times he is pleasant though is great.

 

[yarnosh]

Actually they are a great pairing, INTJs have all of the cognitive functions we don't and they use them in an order that are inspiring to us.

Yes, this is exactly how I feel about her. She uses her NT powers to great worldly success whereas I tend to be less practical and underachieving. Is this perhaps less attractive to an INTJ female?

Also, I like debate and confrontation. Seems like the J's don't do well in debate. Or at least they don't see it as an exercise to work out ideas. They have an opinion and that's that. That could be very frustrating for me.

 

[Adymus]

Yes, this is exactly how I feel about her. She uses her NT powers to great worldly success whereas I tend to be less practical and underachieving. Is this perhaps less attractive to an INTJ female?

Also, I like debate and confrontation. Seems like the J's don't do well in debate. Or at least they don't see it as an exercise to work out ideas. They have an opinion and that's that. That could be very frustrating for me.

Sounds to me like she is kicking your ass in debating.
xNTJ's see debating as an exercise to smash other worldviews to bits, so bring your A-game pansy, because they play to win.
Also, she is an Ni dom, so you should try using more Ne with her, they will listen to Ne before listening to your Ti.

and dude, being an impractical underachiever is unattractive to ANY female.

 

[yarnosh]

I dearly love my INTJ husband. He is my favorite person in the world. We dated for 8 years before getting married 11 years ago, so we've been together a long time, and we are one of the happiest, most compatible couples I know. It is because we both work hard at the relationship and follow our three rules:!

Was it at all rough starting? Or did you just click right away?

1. Never take each other for granted.

Well, that's why I'm here. :-)

2. Use good manners with each other.

Can you explain?

3. Don't ask hard questions before coffee in the morning.

Can you expand on this?

Honestly, I can't imagine a better match for me. All that stuff about ideal pairings is only statistical, but when you talk about individuals it doesn't really apply.

Well, I had read somewhere, I can't remember where, that INTJ men are good for INTP women, but not the other way around (INTP man, INTJ woman). The only reason I can think of is that men are supposed to be more assertive and decisive.

 

[TheHmmmm]

The INTJ and me always butt heads. >.>

Everything becomes an intellectual competition. (Usually along the lines of exchanging witty insults for 15 minutes straight before one of us runs out. There is a re-match every week.)

The times he is pleasant though is great.

"The INTJ and I always butt heads"...

 

[ashitaria]

"The INTJ and I always butt heads"...

Blah blah blah...>.>

You stupid grammar nazi.

 

[TheHmmmm]

Blah blah blah...>.>

You stupid grammar nazi.

I'm in it to win it.

 

[yarnosh]

Sounds to me like she is kicking your ass in debating.

Not yet. I haven't really gone there yet. I just know how she has describes her confrontations with classmates and professors.

xNTJ's see debating as an exercise to smash other worldviews to bits, so bring your A-game pansy, because they play to win.

That's just it. I don't play to win. If I can win, great, but the main point is to work out an idea and maybe gain a new perspective. How is resolved between INTPs and INTJs?

Also, she is an Ni dom, so you should try using more Ne with her, they will listen to Ne before listening to your Ti.

Sorry, I haven't studied functions that make up the personality types. Can you translate that to English?

and dude, being an impractical underachiever is unattractive to ANY female.

I said LESS practical, not IMpractical. In terms of achieving, I do alright, but I probably don't live up to my professional potential, but that is by choice. I value other things besides climbing the ladder and making money.

 

[Adymus]

Sorry, I haven't studied functions that make up the personality types. Can you translate that to English?

As much as I want to say "NO! YOU WILL SPEAK MY NATIVE TONGUE IN MY COUNTRY!"

I suppose I could...

Instead of focusing on correcting the logical inconsistencies in her argument, focus on the perspectives you think she could be missing. If you are only correcting the logic of her argument she will think you are getting stuck on the details and not seeing the bigger picture. Essentially getting stuck on a single Te string of a massive Ni web that it is all meshed into.
You might end up seeing it her way, sometimes things don't make sense at first glance until you see it from a new perspective.

I said LESS practical, not IMpractical. In terms of achieving, I do alright, but I probably don't live up to my professional potential, but that is by choice. I value other things besides climbing the ladder and making money.

Well, then as long as you can be inspirational to her too, you should be golden.

 

[ashitaria]

I'm in it to win it.

I don't know what you win but okay.

 

[walfin]

and dude, being an impractical underachiever is unattractive to ANY female.

Adymus is a closet INTJ, that's why he says stuff the way he does.

 

[ashitaria]

Adymus is a closet INTJ, that's why he says stuff the way he does.

Shhh...Don't provoke the lions.

And did you read my PM? *taps fingers*

 

[yarnosh]

Instead of focusing on correcting the logical inconsistencies in her argument, focus on the perspectives you think she could be missing. If you are only correcting the logic of her argument she will think you are getting stuck on the details and not seeing the bigger picture. Essentially getting stuck on a single Te string of a massive Ni web that it is all meshed into.

I suspect this will turn out to be invaluable advice. Thank you.

 

[cheese]

I dearly love my INTJ husband. He is my favorite person in the world. We dated for 8 years before getting married 11 years ago, so we've been together a long time, and we are one of the happiest, most compatible couples I know. It is because we both work hard at the relationship and follow our three rules:

1. Never take each other for granted.
2. Use good manners with each other.
3. Don't ask hard questions before coffee in the morning.

Honestly, I can't imagine a better match for me. All that stuff about ideal pairings is only statistical, but when you talk about individuals it doesn't really apply.

I really love these stories. I encourage anyone else with them to share.

 

[soraya]

Everyone do what Cheese says!

Also, INTJ/INTP is an awesome pairing. Really compatible. I think that a lot of the sites that list ideal pairings suck or aren't done by people who know what they are talking about. Some of the ones they list for me (I'm INTJ btw) are terrible. They especially like to tell me to be with ENFP...no offense ENFPs but no, just no. I have an ENFP friend and, as much as I find him sincerely amusing, I would never date him. So, basically, what Adymus the slayer of dragons, zombies, aliens, and monsters says. Functions are much more reliable indicators to look at than lists that somebody pieced together.

DON'T check out INTJforum. Most INTJs that I have found there heavily suppress their Ni and are super Te focused. Scary. Not that there aren't some great people there too but still...be careful.

 

[Adymus]

Two randoms Clarifications!


The things about INTJ+INTP only working if the male is INTJ and the female is INTP, is total bullshit, gender of the personality types is irrelevant. Just because in our culture the male is supposed to be directive, doesn't mean male Adaptives are not allowed to be with female directive types. All that means is that our cultural norms are fucking retarded and don't take reality into account.

Also, it was Kiersey that started the INTJ+ENFP ideal pairing. Kiersey is an idiot, there was absolutely no theory behind his choices of ideal pairs; all he was doing was flipping the four letters around without taking into consideration how they use their cognitive functions. ENFP with INTJ however is actually not that bad when you compare it to what he suggested is ideal for an INTP, an ENFJ. Dominant Fe with Dominant Ti is just a horrible idea, that is just recipe for constant suppression.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Two randoms Clarifications!


The things about INTJ+INTP only working if the male is INTJ and the female is INTP, is total bullshit, gender of the personality types is irrelevant. Just because in our culture the male is supposed to be directive, doesn't mean male Adaptives are not allowed to be with female directive types. All that means is that our cultural norms are fucking retarded and don't take reality into account.

Doesn't it suck to be an intp male. lol

To be successful in relationships you must be assertive and being assertive most the time is draining.

 

[Trebuchet]

Did you just click right away?

We liked each other from the day we met, but actually we didn't date until we had been good friends for about 4 years. We'd had lots of philosophical conversations and done homework together and knew each other pretty well.

Can you explain? <using good manners with each other>

Well, uh, sure. We always say please and thank you to each other (even for things that we do every day), don't leave wet towels on the bathroom floor, try to be prompt, use napkins at meals, wish each other good morning and good night. We ask permission before talking about each other in detail (I asked his permission to post in this thread, for example). We try to keep the noise down when the other one needs some quiet. You know, manners.

3. Don't ask hard questions before coffee in the morning.

Can you expand on this?

Literally we don't bring up stressful topics or ask any questions that require thought to answer until we've had our coffee. Emergencies are an exception, of course. If there was a fire, we'd mention it. But planning for the summer, deciding on birthday gifts, discussing finances, or anything like that can wait. We don't bring them up within a hour of bedtime, either. That is a time to wind down and relax.

So pre-coffee conversation tends to be simple and repetitive. "How did you sleep?" "Do you want eggs this morning?" "What day is it?" "The cat seems to be biting me."

Well, I had read somewhere, I can't remember where, that INTJ men are good for INTP women, but not the other way around (INTP man, INTJ woman). The only reason I can think of is that men are supposed to be more assertive and decisive.

Sounds like you were well socialized to believe all the gender role stuff. I wasn't, so I can't see where it would make much difference. However, if you would have issues with a woman who was more assertive than yourself, you will need to find a way past those issues before you get involved with an assertive woman of any personality type.

My husband and I share the duties of being assertive and decisive. Neither of us really wants to be in charge all the time. He enjoys making plans more than I do, and I enjoy carrying them out more than he does, but these aren't strong enough distinctions that we have assigned roles based on them. Once we decide who is in charge of whatever thing, the person in charge makes the final say. After a while, we might trade.

 

[azelismia]

I am an intj Female married to an Intp male. for the most part we get along swimmingly. We have a lot of the same interests and can talk about things without the misunderstandings that seem so prevalent with F types.

one of the big issues we have is that I like to debate everything. I like to look at all sides of every coin including a few that I may have made up. he considers this combative and hates it. it's a big one. I don't see it as combative. it's natural and no harm meant, I am just talking.. he really sees it as a fight.

For those that talk about ne vs ni dominant, I personally think it's a bunch of bullwack. I've taken a couple various function tests and the NE NI is in one point of each other adn the Te and Ti is in one point of each other. and the N's and T's are both with in a couple points of each other. N is just a little stronger than T for me. on the Intj forum there was a thread showing many results of one of these tests and this was not uncommon.

I personally think the system as it stands is broken. I think the test should be altered (And yes I know that is the core of myers briggs, but so what, things need to change sometimes) it makes much more sense just to test the dichotomies. Why exactly does it make sense for the functions to be one type ordered one way and another ordered another? Why does more complex and convoluted with no actual basis in science for the structure stand above the more simple straightforward way of getting there?

you're either an I or an e right? you're either an N or an S or an F or a T or a J or a P.

Why not leave it there?

If you're going to go by functions wouldn't it make more sense to make up many more types to address the fact that not everyone is going to test out in the prescribed fashion to be assigned a type?
j a
But anyway, I see no reason why Intj and Intp shouldn't make a great pair. there will be differences but those differences are going to be more manageable than many other type pairings out there.


YMMV.

 

[soraya]

Totally agree with the first part of your post. Talking to an INTP is refreshing because I simply an not misunderstood nearly as frequently as I am with an F type, in general but not always. Also, I get the debate thing. I want to keep shifting my perspective and this can sometimes be frustrating and seen as 'combative' to my INTP friend. Mostly we love debating together though so that issue doesn't come up often.

Lastly, I suspect that this is going to get jumped on by way more competent people in a minute or two but I don't think that the diff between Ne/Ni and Te/Ti are bullwack. In fact, I would say that any test that cannot adequately or accurately test this is crap. The problem is not with the theory but with the way it is being expressed through tests, shitty explanations, poor understandings etc. I am extremely extremely and can I say EXTREMELY conscious of my Ni. It is markedly different from Ne. Same goes for the Ts. Of course, Ne and Ni as well as Te and Ti being on the same cognitive channels does provide a lot of similarities but they also do function in quite different ways.

For example, I am INTJ, Ni dominant with Te auxiliary. Ni takes a lot of nebulous ideas or signals that it picks up on and focuses them into one internal view (the intuition is directed inward towards the inner nature of things, i). Te organizes and structures that view into a game plan (the thinking is directed towards the outside world, e).

My friend, INTP, is Ti dominant with Ne auxiliary. He orders his interior world of thought and logic with Ti (internally focused, i) and then uses Ne to expand those ideas into more and more ideas as he builds off of them (outwardly focused, e).

I mean, we are both definitely N and that's something we share that makes our friendship so great but our Ns are definitely different. Same with T. His thinking is definitely emphasized in a different way than mine.

Sorry, poorly explained. Maybe Adymus will come along and clean up the mess I've made here.

 

[cheese]

How're things going on your end soraya?

 

[azelismia]

I didn't say that there aren't differences between the functions, only that there is no reason to order them in any particular way and that for many both sides of N or T or S or F are used equally. I use both Ne and Ni, I use both Te and Ti equally.

there is no reason to say this type is always dominant in this function followed by this function and so on and so forth. if you use one of the N's or both of them, over S you are N dominant.

Following Occam's razor it would make the most sense to stay with the dichotomies for predicting type.

going back to the functions, there are far more possiblities of dominance than the 16 ordered functions and often when you take a test it says you're most likely this or that or this, or if none of these fit read the descriptions.

it makes the reliability of the test very very low. If they were to bring it down to a straight and simple dichotomy then it would be far less prone to failure.

 

[Adymus]

I didn't say that there aren't differences between the functions, only that there is no reason to order them in any particular way and that for many both sides of N or T or S or F are used equally. I use both Ne and Ni, I use both Te and Ti equally.

Are you.
Fucking.
Kidding me?

No reason to order the functions? What!? The hierarchy of functions are what actually make a personality type in the first place, it makes all the difference in the world!
Secondly, no, you don't use Ni and Ne equally, you either use one or the other, just because your cognitive functions test results showed up with those two next to each other does not mean you actually use them. The Cognitive functions test is complete garage anyway, but I won't get into that.

there is no reason to say this type is always dominant in this function followed by this function and so on and so forth. if you use one of the N's or both of them, over S you are N dominant.

No... Just no.

Following Occam's razor it would make the most sense to stay with the dichotomies for predicting type.

going back to the functions, there are far more possiblities of dominance than the 16 ordered functions and often when you take a test it says you're most likely this or that or this, or if none of these fit read the descriptions.

it makes the reliability of the test very very low. If they were to bring it down to a straight and simple dichotomy then it would be far less prone to failure.

Ockham's Razor does not apply to this. The dichotomies are a simplification of a massively complex model, simplification does not actually make things more clear in this case, it makes it vague. Really really vague.

Do you have any idea how the MBTI dichotomy test works in the first place?

Let's start from the top: One day there was a Psychologist named Carl Jung who discovered a theory of personality he called "Psychological types." The original theory was based on 8 types all defined by one of eight dominant cognitive functions.
It was a decent theory but it was a bit incomplete. Enter Isabel Meyers and and Kathrine Briggs who expanded the theory through their discover of the types not simply being defined by their dominant function, but their dominant function and auxiliary, with their 2 lower functions reflecting these. The types expanded to 16.

Meyers and Briggs intended to create a written test, that could guess at what a person's top two functions are simply by asking four questions in several different ways:

Where do you get your energy? (Introvert or Extrovert)
What kind of information to you prefer? (Sensing or Intuition)
How do you prefer to make sense of this information? (Thinking or Feeling)
What kind of lifestyle do you prefer to lead? (Perceiving or Judging)

Thinking or Feeling will tell you if it is a thinking or feeling function in the person's top two. Sensing or Intuition will tell you if it is a sensing or intuition perception function in their top two.
Perceiving or Judging will tell you if the person has an extroverted perception or extroverted Judgment function, and thus if they are directive or adaptive.
Extrovert or introvert will tell you if their dominant function is the introverted function or the extroverted function.
The bottom two functions always reflect the top two, so if you can guess the top two, you get the personality type.

Do you see what I am trying to spell out for you? It all goes back to the hierarchy of cognitive functions, without the cognitive functions there are no dichotomies. They are the source of this entire model, and understanding how they work gives you a far greater understanding of the personality than simply testing the dichotomies.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Are you.
Fucking.
Kidding me?

This is why I like reading Adymus's posts.

 

[azelismia]

Why exactly is it impossible to use the ne and ni equally or te and ti equally? Who says so? It's amazingly easy to attempt to discredit someone else's uncomfortable assertion about a theory by just responding with a bleated, you don't get it, you just don't underrrrrstanddddd.. but really it's evading the topic and doesn't further the conversation. it's just sloppy. I'll expect you to shape up from here on out as far as your silly ad hom's go.

This is a THEORY and the theory as it stands has failed pretty bad. the reliability of the MBTI is extremely low. it does have some good direction but it fails. OcCam's razor applies to EVERYTHING. (notice the extra C there. Occam is not spelled with a K)

it's not vague at all to find a type based on the dichotomies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meyers_brigg

near the bottom of this article they have a very good section on the criticisms of MBTI. I agree with most of it. I think work needs to be done on this system. you can make something reliable and tested but no one has.

I have found in discussing this topic that there is a certain dogma attached. no one wants to question Jung or Isabelle, but that's what needs to be done. They made shit up and people flocked to it and called it the last word.

My point is the ordering and the functions broken up as they are, are arbitrary and pointless. there is no scientific basis to the ordering. there is no reason that N needs to be broken up into Ne or NI. at least not from any studies that I have seen.

where are hte papers on the subject showing how people always have an exact order to the functions as delineated by MBTI? where are the papers showing studies that have been done that show people cannot have equal TE and TI in their approach to life?

Where is your proof?

 

[Anthile]

Why exactly is it impossible to use the ne and ni equally or te and ti equally? Who says so? It's amazingly easy to attempt to discredit someone else's uncomfortable assertion about a theory by just responding with a bleated, you don't get it, you just don't underrrrrstanddddd.. but really it's evading the topic and doesn't further the conversation. it's just sloppy. I'll expect you to shape up from here on out as far as your silly ad hom's go.

This is a THEORY and the theory as it stands has failed pretty bad. the reliability of the MBTI is extremely low. it does have some good direction but it fails. OcCam's razor applies to EVERYTHING. (notice the extra C there. Occam is not spelled with a K)

it's not vague at all to find a type based on the dichotomies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meyers_brigg

near the bottom of this article they have a very good section on the criticisms of MBTI. I agree with most of it. I think work needs to be done on this system. you can make something reliable and tested but no one has.

I have found in discussing this topic that there is a certain dogma attached. no one wants to question Jung or Isabelle, but that's what needs to be done. They made shit up and people flocked to it and called it the last word.

My point is the ordering and the functions broken up as they are, are arbitrary and pointless. there is no scientific basis to the ordering. there is no reason that N needs to be broken up into Ne or NI. at least not from any studies that I have seen.

where are hte papers on the subject showing how people always have an exact order to the functions as delineated by MBTI? where are the papers showing studies that have been done that show people cannot have equal TE and TI in their approach to life?

Where is your proof?

That's not even wrong. Do your basics first before you post in such a manner.

 

[Adymus]

Why exactly is it impossible to use the ne and ni equally or te and ti equally? Who says so? It's amazingly easy to attempt to discredit someone else's uncomfortable assertion about a theory by just responding with a bleated, you don't get it, you just don't underrrrrstanddddd.. but really it's evading the topic and doesn't further the conversation. it's just sloppy. I'll expect you to shape up from here on out as far as your silly ad hom's go.

The personality is not just an amorphous mass of cognitive functions. It is a biologically wired interface used to experience, and make sense of reality. Every cognitive function serves a purpose, and it is in that order for a purpose. At the very least, a person needs a way to be able to take in information and make decisions, this is where Judging and perception functions come in. We also need a way to engage the internal world and external world, that is where extroverted and introverted functions come it. With out top two functions alone we have, all four of those considerations: Judgment, Perception, extroversion and introversion, but our functionality is still only basic.
Human beings have four priorities that all cognitive functions cover: The worldview (Introverted perception) Si and Ni, The Dynamics mover (Extroverted Judgment) Te and Fe, The Stimulus Reader (Extroverted Perception) Se and Ne, and the compass (Introverted Judgment) Ti and Fi.

With these priorities we can take in information as it is happening in the present, we can make decisions based on personal criteria, we can access stored information based on personal point of view (worldview, we are using ours on each other right now), and a way to make descisions based on external and objective criteria.

On top of all of this we still need to be able to take in a form of pattern based (intuition) information and literal and concrete information (sensing.) and Make decisions based on Values based criteria (Feeling), and logic based criteria (thinking).

Our top four functions, covers all of this, take mine for example:
Ti - Gives me a way to engage the inner world, make decisions based on personal and subjective criteria, and logic based judgment.
Ne - Gives me a way to engage the outer world, take in external information, and take in pattern based information.
Si - Gives me a way to engage the inner world, access internal and personal information (Worldview), and take in literal concrete information.
Fe - Gives me a way to engage the outer world, Make decisions based on objective and external criteria, and values based judgment.

One more crucial thing to outline is that our top four functions are actually where we get our energy and stimulation, so those function are constantly trying to press forward into usage so to speak, so it is necessary that we have those two lower functions that can suppress and truncate the top two functions when necessary, in order to "rein in" our top two.


Now then, I explained all that so I can explain this to you:
If we INTPs where to have Ni instead of Si, we would have no way of understanding concrete and literal information. When I see patterns with my Ne I would not be able to make sense of them, because I couldn't check my Si to see what this pattern is in it's concrete form. If you were to have Ne instead of Se as your means to take in objective present happening information, you would not be able to experience the world because your pattern based Ni did not having anything concrete to create patterns out of.
This is why the structure of cognitive processes must be the way it is. The order of functions means everything to what our types our, they simply could not exist in random orders like you seem to be proposing they can. On top of all of that, it is actually more efficient in design that not everyone have equal use of all eight function, and just specialize in their top two. Plus it also encourages human beings work as a collective.

This is a THEORY and the theory as it stands has failed pretty bad. the reliability of the MBTI is extremely low. it does have some good direction but it fails. OcCam's razor applies to EVERYTHING. (notice the extra C there. Occam is not spelled with a K)

it's not vague at all to find a type based on the dichotomies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meyers_brigg

near the bottom of this article they have a very good section on the criticisms of MBTI. I agree with most of it. I think work needs to be done on this system. you can make something reliable and tested but no one has.

I have found in discussing this topic that there is a certain dogma attached. no one wants to question Jung or Isabelle, but that's what needs to be done. They made shit up and people flocked to it and called it the last word.

Mmmmm, yeah I'd say it does fail pretty bad, I am actually not an MBTI supporter. I have my own criticisms on it.
Which covers exactly why it is vague to have types based on dichotomies.
And by the way, Both Occam and Ockham are accepted spellings of Ockham, I just happen to think it looks cooler when spelled with a K. so Spelling Nazi attempt = fail.

And no, it doesn't apply to everything, not everything should be simplified, that's just common sense.
I'd hardly call this making shit up, theories don't just come out of no where you know.
But yeah, a lot of work does need to be done, and it is testable and provable, I am working on that, so wait your turn.

My point is the ordering and the functions broken up as they are, are arbitrary and pointless. there is no scientific basis to the ordering. there is no reason that N needs to be broken up into Ne or NI. at least not from any studies that I have seen.

where are hte papers on the subject showing how people always have an exact order to the functions as delineated by MBTI? where are the papers showing studies that have been done that show people cannot have equal TE and TI in their approach to life?

Where is your proof?

And my point is, no it fucking isn't, because without functional hierarchy, there is no system, period.

 

[soraya]

Bahahaha!!! Reasons my explanation was sloppy...
1. Too large and complex for a message board (I think we all know how verbally prolific I am)
2. If you aren't going to investigate the functions on your own and try to understand how they work there's no point in me explaining it to you anyway because you clearly don't care to know.
3. I'm lazy.
4. The cavalry is here
5. Did I say the cavalry is here? Because he is and his name is Adymus.

Also, yeah of course there's problems with the MBTI and valid criticisms of it. However, it is also interesting to note, perhaps, that if you have a pretty good understanding of the functions you can usually call somebody's type. In particular, I can recognize another Ni dominant from a mile away. It's still pretty general of course, but that does provide a measure of support to the system.

Also, the MBTI is not very reliable because people often do not consistently test as the same type. However, the MBTI measures your level of awareness of your functions. So, if you are not aware of your functions or not confident in them you are likely to be inconsistent in your test results. I have noticed that, with people who have no prior knowledge of the MBTI, those who are quite confident in themselves and their personalities tend to consistently test the same type while those who are have low confidence in themselves and their personalities tend to be quite inconsistent in their test results. Hence, perhaps the inconsistency is not due to the theory but to the degree of development in the person taking the test. Anecdotal evidence though, no scientific tests have been done.

Also, there is of course justifiable debate over whether a person actually is their type or merely changes in order to become like the type they test as. I think both happen, obviously, but I think that the only way to measure the veracity of this is on non quantifiable factors. Someone who is trying to fit their personality to a standard that is not true to themselves is obviously going to be pretty unhappy, unhealthy, and poorly functioning person. However, if that type is true to the person and they try to strengthen themselves in it they are probably going to become a happier, healthier, better functioning individual. Again, nobody has tested that officially. For what it's worth though, my clearly ISFJ roommate tested as an INTJ. Interesting and perhaps insightful anecdote.

She had no mbti knowledge at this time and took the test without knowing what it was. Not only is her life a complete disaster, but come to find out she had been thinking for a year or so that she should try to be like me in order to be more successful and had been trying to model herself after me, without knowing I am INTJ. I told her that she was obviously not the type she had tested and asked her what she had in mind when she answered the questions. She replied that she had answered not according to what she thought she was, but according to what she thought she should be. I asked her what that was and she told me that she had been trying to be like me for years because I was successful and she felt that she was not successful but could be if she were more like me. I then told her that she had tested as my type. She read a good (not homemade shitty) INTJ profile and did not understand Ni at all but said she thought it fit me creepily well and didn't fit her at all. After reading a good ISFJ profile, as well as several others, she felt ISFJ fit her exactly and accounted for the conflicts that she and I sometimes have. Yeah, we then talked about how being successful doesn't mean trying to be like someone else but trying to be the best you that you can. Again, anecdotal but perhaps insightful and interesting.

MBTI has a lot of flaws of course. It would be cool to see a test that could account for the contingencies I mentioned but, humanity being what it is, it probably is not humanly possible. Not saying I agree or disagree with anything I wrote, just providing perspectives

Also, this thread has seriously derailed.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

She had no mbti knowledge at this time and took the test without knowing what it was. Not only is her life a complete disaster, but come to find out she had been thinking for a year or so that she should try to be like me in order to be more successful and had been trying to model herself after me, without knowing I am INTJ.

I hate it when people do this sort of thing. I had a few people in my early days try to emulate me. It made me feel like I had no sense of individuality.

 

[yarnosh]

Sounds like you were well socialized to believe all the gender role stuff.

I didn't say I believed it. I'm must saying that's the norm. Not knowing her expectations yet, it is something I was a least a little concerned about. But then, it is not like it is something I can change if it turns out she needs someone more directive (I like that better than assertive) so I probably shouldn't worry about it.

Anyway, thanks for giving me some hope. :-)

 

[Trebuchet]

I didn't say I believed it.

True. My apologies.

 

[miyuki]

I like INTJ traits the most. they are admirable to me (INTP). cunning, have follow-through, and strong personalities.

Problem areas to watch out for: (plenty)

-Heartless bastards - they might come off as uncaring
-Not sociable.
-They might get very prideful and rigid.
-i think they're capable of terrible (and great) things .
-occasional sensotard?

absolutely none of that bothers me. unless it backfires on the INTJ.

advice:
do not toy with them. ..if he's given you his heart and you've trampled all over it. i don't know what he'd do. i imagine he might turn very destructive inside or turn it out on the world....

yes ... of course they range as a type ... but i really, really, really like INTJs *sighs*

 

[chaomon]

Hahaha, OMG reading this thread is totally creeping me out! My bestfriend is a INTJ I really do enjoy talking to him coz were almost alike. But I am not romantically attracted to him, I just see as a friend but reading your makes me think that theres a possibility of me liking him? as in liking not just a friend.. hahaha! Never imagine my self w/ him.

 

[nexion]

I like INTJ traits the most. they are admirable to me (INTP). cunning, have follow-through, and strong personalities.

Problem areas to watch out for: (plenty)

-Heartless bastards - they might come off as uncaring
-Not sociable.
-They might get very prideful and rigid.
-i think they're capable of terrible (and great) things .
-occasional sensotard?

absolutely none of that bothers me. unless it backfires on the INTJ.

advice:
do not toy with them. ..if he's given you his heart and you've trampled all over it. i don't know what he'd do. i imagine he might turn very destructive inside or turn it out on the world....

yes ... of course they range as a type ... but i really, really, really like INTJs *sighs*

Isn't that pretty much the same way INTPs are?

 

[Reptillian]

The list does match some INTP though.

 

[nexion]

I hate it when people do this sort of thing. I had a few people in my early days try to emulate me. It made me feel like I had no sense of individuality.

Honestly, that would just make me feel awkward. At all times. And I would then proceed to purposely avoid that person. But, if they were trying to emulate me, then maybe they'd avoid me too. Hmm, an interesting thought.

 

[intpKorean]

My husband is an INTJ and I am an INTP/J (mostly I test INTJ, but honestly I think my true identity is INTP).

This is an excellent couple, soulmate level even.
Firstly, my information hording INTJ husband never stops talking about all the stuff he knows. Everything from world history to politics to medicine to warfare is his game. He loves talking to me about it, because I listen very well.

He inspires me to do better because INTJ's can make a decision and stick with it. They have a plan in mind and go for it. For example, if they decided to be a doctor, then they'll go to med school and complete it. I, on the other hand, have too many interests as an INTP so I might finish my 2 years of pre-med courses, then change my mind and not apply for med school. I start a lot of projects and not finish any of them.

We both have excellent communication with each other and also extremely independent and value our own freedoms. That is a huge plus. It basically means that I'm not going to be calling my husband every two hours on the cellphone because of my "needy feelings". If he went on a business trip or deployment (he's also in the military) for 6 months, I'm going to be perfectly OK being home alone and taking care of business.... fixing the car, fixing the home pipes, doing my own thing.....going shopping, vacations, whatever, without him. I'm not going to be horribly depressed and need family and friends to function. Since we're so independent, we tend to leave each other alone at home like college roommates. When we want to talk about something, WE'RE ALWAYS THERE for each other, exactly like colleagues or close friends.

Due to the similarities of the "INT" portion, we both love to acquire knowledge, analyze, and debate. I am more anal because I'm more analytical on a small point, but my INTJ husband definitely is more knowledgeable on broad topics. For example, I could probably explain to you the correct use of the semicolon in ALL cases of its use (where it's used, how it's used, how it should be used), whereas the INTJ might not be able to do that, but he would be able to explain all the other parts of grammar - capitalizaton, comma use, predicates, etc.

My husband is also very confident, even if he's wrong. Whereas I am always leaving the door open, his beliefs are firm. For example, I believe that women should have the right to abort up until 24 weeks, or 6 months into pregnancy, because a baby born at 6 months has about 70% chance of mental retardation assuming it was able to survive in an incubator as a preemie (premature baby) at a hospital. Yes, it's THAT bad being a preemie. Sure, the baby may be able to live, but what kind of life will it have if it's retarded? There's also a 50% chance it will be blind. This is all assuming the baby survived from 24 weeks birth to 37 weeks in the incubator. So I think if a mom is unable or unwilling to give birth to a child that is going to be a retarded due to a pregnancy complication, she should have the choice to abort up to 24 weeks. Women can choose to abort if the baby will have Downs Syndrome at an earlier time, when test results are given to them for trisomy around 20 weeks. So why shouldn't women be able to terminate their pregnancies at 24 weeks, when the mortality rate very high as well as mental retardation, organ failure, blindness, and congnitive failure for the child is going to be evident when born a preemie? I will debate FOR the right to abort, but keep the back door open....just in case I left out a crucial piece of evidence in my sound logic. At any time, I may switch to be AGAINST the right to abort, if the opponent has convinced me enough with his logic. My INTJ husband, on the other hand, will make an opinion (FOR or AGAINST something) and extremely rarely change that opinion. Since he's not constantly second guessing himself like I am, he will have finished a lot more work and accomplished a lot more in the same time than I.....basically I feel like the Hare (fast but no staying power) and my INTJ husband as the Tortoise (slow and steady).


Of the 10 years we've been together, we've only fought about 5 times, and they were all petty fights like "Why didn't you peel the label off the canned mushrooms so we can recycle the label as paper and the can as metal?"

Through tough times, such as the death of our firstborn daughter, we still made it and love each other even more. We were able to go through that pain because we are both logical and non-emotional. This lack of emotion keeps you strong and resilient during stressful events.

We're both extremely loyal as well (typical INTP/INTJ) and would never cheat on each other.

One day, I am going to leave my family and husband all behind and become a Buddhist monk (INTP has a lot of interests) and meditate until I die. If I'm lucky, I might find enlightenment. My husband as an INTJ is "okay" with this, because like I said, both of us are extremely independent people.

*** I created an account just to answer this post***

 

[Duxwing]

@intpKorean What will your kids think of your leaving to become a monk?

-Duxwing