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Communism/Socialism?

jameslikespie

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I want to know what your guys' opinion of Communism/Socialism is.I haven't really established my political beliefs, mainly because i've been lazy, playing video games and the like to care.
 

ProxyAmenRa

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The theories are defunct because they have not solved the economic calculation problem. This entails that only they may hit that 1 in a 1000000 chance of correctly allocating a particular resource. Secondly, as pointed out in F.A. Hayek's 'Road to Serfdom' the logical conclusion of socialism or communism is totalitarianism and rule by the fist. One no longer works to meet the demands of one's fellow people but to the whim's of the state. Thirdly, socialism and communism by rule of the fist destroys the fundamental self evident rights which guarantee life, liberty and property.

I have nothing against a group of people in a free society getting together and attempting to create a socialist paradise. It is their choice. I vehemently oppose socialism instituted by force and yes, this does include socialism introduced by democracy. Democracy is simply tyranny by one group of people over another.

Anyway, as far as socialism goes, the writing is on the wall. The socialist states of the USA, United Kingdom and Europe are collapsing in on themselves. It appears they could not even play markets right.

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http://media.mises.org/mp3/audioart...ce=mp3&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=Direct_MP3
 

A22

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I believe communism is possible, just not in our current society. I also believe it is the best way a society could organize itself, if with some liberal adaptations.

How could you apply it (or an adaptation) to our current society? IDK and I'm not really interested in thinking about it.
 

Dimensional Transition

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I'm a socialist, I think.
I never really agree with anything being done in politics, because it's barely based on hard facts, but I always feel like I can agree the most with socialist parties.
 

Jesse

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I like the idea of socialism but I don't see it working.
 

Roni

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When I was young I thought I was Socialist until my father said "everyone's socialist when they're young - you'll view wealth differently when you start making some of your own."
In day-to-day grizzling-about-tax contexts I know he was right.
In broader saving-the-world contexts I'm still sympathetic to socialism.

I'm a bit of fan of Maximilian Forte who once pointed out the value of communism in national histories. He cited a few currently successful nations (I forget which ones now) who overthrew a heridatary ruling class, installed an extreme left wing system then settled down to something more moderate. He argued communism was a necessary part of this development and those nations could not have become successful without it (part of a broader argument that the West is wrong to try to impose its own systems on nations that haven't yet begun this transition).

Dad and Max gave me an idea of seeing nations as individual beings requiring different political systems at different stages of their development. No system would be inherently best for all nations just as no method of teaching is inherently best for all students.
I may have gone on to develop this idea and save the world, but I lost interest.

I do wish people would give up their affection for democracy though. How is letting idiots vote and running a nation by committee such a great idea?
 

ProxyAmenRa

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I do wish people would give up their affection for democracy though. How is letting idiots vote and running a nation by committee such a great idea?

Don't take this as me defending democracy or the actions of any state. I find your comment about letting idiots vote quite amusing. It is never you who is the idiot, right?
 

Roni

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I find your comment about letting idiots vote quite amusing. It is never you who is the idiot, right?
Absolutely correct. You are obviously not an idiot.

When I'm king of the world idiocy (as I choose to define it) will be exterminated. The bigger the idiot, the more creative and lingering the method of extermination.

Although, that sounds like a lot of work. Perhaps I'll just invent some kind of death ray that can be broadcast to viewers of certain current affairs programs.
 

Jordan~

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The thinking of some social scientists who would call themselves communist or socialist (Proudhon, for example) criticises harshly the inherent authoritarianism of what might be called 'pure Marxism' - but I'm drunk so I'm not really very well-placed to make an argument. A lot of very different things have been called socialism and communism by different people, is what I'm driving at.
 

CLOfriendOSE

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In an ideal virtually any well thought out social system can work. Even pure capitalism (if in fact all people were given the same opportunities, as opposed to American Capitalism - the Great American Lie to keep the aristocracy alive).

I believe, though, that the better question is "why do these matter". Society itself is inherently a systematic control of people's "free will". A well constructed society is one that deludes the most people into thinking happiness is attainable and giving the tools to achieve it. Obviously there will be outliers (INTPs =P) who see the construction of the system and the effect it has upon the more easily manipulated.

It makes me think of More's Utopia, which basically removed the intellectuals/artists from everyday life assuming they were being productive (as opposed to destroying the society from within).
 

psion

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You get the extremely short version because I'm tired:

Decent idea, fails in implementation. There will always be someone there to take advantage of the situation, and take power for themselves.
 

ProxyAmenRa

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You get the extremely short version because I'm tired:

Decent idea, fails in implementation. There will always be someone there to take advantage of the situation, and take power for themselves.

In reality it is more like 'The people whom want power use the idea of socialism to take advantage of the gullible masses.'
 

Reverse Transcriptase

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Another saying when it comes to socialism:
"A government powerful enough to give you bread is powerful enough to take it away."

Here's the thing. What is stopping people from enacting a socialistic or communistic culture here, in the US? Nothing. And infact, there are communes scattered around the US. There's a multi-house & multi-business commune in New Jersey. And there's a lot of miscellaneous farming communes scattered around the northwest. My friend just visited a herb farm in southern Oregon. They're around.

I'm not sure where my argument stands. How about: it works when people are able to leave, willing, and in small groups.

Gigantic nation socialism is FUCK NO.
 

snafupants

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Another saying when it comes to socialism:
"A government powerful enough to give you bread is powerful enough to take it away."

Here's the thing. What is stopping people from enacting a socialistic or communistic culture here, in the US? Nothing. And infact, there are communes scattered around the US. There's a multi-house & multi-business commune in New Jersey. And there's a lot of miscellaneous farming communes scattered around the northwest. My friend just visited a herb farm in southern Oregon. They're around.

I'm not sure where my argument stands. How about: it works when people are able to leave, willing, and in small groups.

Gigantic nation socialism is FUCK NO.

The last part illustrates a good point. The buffer to cleaning up our individual and collective vices (and, thus, our society) is the obstinate clinging to greed, love of power, money, and the like.

Somehow if you could alter the collective psyche to not hoard, monopolize, waste, and subjugate, by working piecemeal on the individual, clan, communal, state, and finally national level you could cement lasting change.

What you would need is a common rallying point, a way to convince the sitting aristocracy to distribute their wealth, and safeguards against the collective devolving into a plutocracy, oligarchy, or some damned thing.

The whole thing is a dream, and I think it's funny that John Lennon basically distilled Marxist philosophy into an idealistic pop song called Imagine, knowing that it was a pipe dream.

Maybe in the next life.
 

why

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Well, I am too young to have witnessed communism, but Croatia was a communist state, so I think I have some experience in the matter.
I have observed thought patterns of people who have lived under communism, and I can tell you: I do not like it. I think communism does not bring the best out of people, it brings the worst. It makes them lazy and dependent.
People get used to government telling them what to think and how to act. It is still apparent today in Croatia. A large majority of people here still expect government to do everything for them, for example giving them a secure job, free education, public transport, even a place to live.
It is not an friendly environment for ambitious and hardworking people. Why bother, when you can get everything all the others are getting for free, but nothing more?
 

Jordan~

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The last part illustrates a good point. The buffer to cleaning up our individual and collective vices (and, thus, our society) is the obstinate clinging to greed, love of power, money, and the like.

Somehow if you could alter the collective psyche to not hoard, monopolize, waste, and subjugate, by working piecemeal on the individual, clan, communal, state, and finally national level you could cement lasting change.

What you would need is a common rallying point, a way to convince the sitting aristocracy to distribute their wealth, and safeguards against the collective devolving into a plutocracy, oligarchy, or some damned thing.

The whole thing is a dream, and I think it's funny that John Lennon basically distilled Marxist philosophy into an idealistic pop song called Imagine, knowing that it was a pipe dream.

Maybe in the next life.

This is what I've been saying in other threads about social transformation through culture. I think the reason so many revolutions fail to achieve their aims in the long term is that ideas of hierarchy and the differential entitlement that implies are deeply entrenched in our culture.
The communes mentioned above were far more numerous in the '70s - apparently the movement to the communes from the cities was the largest migration in American history. They failed because they didn't allow people to form alliances or speak up on one another's behalf during meetings - those were the rules upon which everyone in the commune had to agree to live there - and so those with naturally domineering personalities bullied everyone else into submission. To me that demonstrates the incompatibility of the noble goal of the communes with western culture such as it is - create a 'free' community and it'll quite quickly devolve into a monarchy or oligarchy.
I think there would need to be a period of gradual devolution and preparation for the reality of post-revolutionary life for a revolution to true communism (as opposed to the bastardised state capitalism of the Soviet Union) to succeed and not disintegrate into statism. I don't know how you'd go about that without being oppressive, though - I don't think there's anything sacred about our culture that we shouldn't change it - far from it - but I do have a problem with invasive cultural remodelling, it sets off the Nazi Alarm.
 

Reverse Transcriptase

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Spider Jerusalem & I have more to share about Democracy:
spider-voting1.png
 
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If I have to pigeon-hole myself, I would say I am an An-Com. The socialist ideals make the most sense of all the economic theories I have looked into. There are inherent dangers, though, that are political, thus I favour a direct democracy approach.

I imagine a kind of 'devolution' as in Jordan's post, where perhaps the first steps are implementing direct democracy and providing adequate space for open debate on each vote, voluntary voting so that only interested parties need vote. Opening up the media so that real information is allowed to flow, rather than the bs we have now.

On that topic (of democracy), I do not believe we, as in neither Australia nor the UK or US has democracy. Democracy is presupposed on the idea that people voting have the information they need to make a decision, and media manipulation has gotten to the point that we no longer have this.

Back onto economic theory, I have seen examples where capitalism has worked to a fair degree, such as Australia, Canada and Scandanavean countries in particular, but overall it does not work, corruption is rampant and people are starving. Also true of socialism, but socialism has not had nearly as much opportunity, particularly the democratic variety. It too has some examples of limited success, although admittedly more failure. For example, Cuba would have been country of third world poverty had it not been for their version of socialism, now you will not find Cubans starving or lacking in healthcare. On the other hand, they don't share in our level of freedom of speech, and for that reason, if for no other, theirs is not a fate I would be keen on sharing. If I were starving, however, I may think differently.

I have observed thought patterns of people who have lived under communism, and I can tell you: I do not like it.
I do not doubt what you say, at all, these criticisms make sense. I just want to point out that you are talking about an economic system in combination with a particular political system, most of what you criticise is about the political system. With the exception of 'why bother?' I imagine there would be a percentage of lazy people in a socialist system, just as there are in the capitalist system. But it means more in a socialist system, as by being lazy you are taking away from others. I don't see any reason why there can't be some fair method of punishment... curious what if anything was done about that and if not, why not? What are the barriers?

I don't think money is the only reason we work, we work for all sorts of reasons, recognition, pride in success, status, meaningfulness of your life after you have dies, meaningfulness of life generally, learning and applying learning to the real world, general wanting to do good, social pressure... that isn't to say everyone thinks along those lines...

Anyway, why socialism? Because the question is, which society is the best for humanity, in my eyes. I think we can safely count out facism. We can count out (for some reason the name has slipped my mind) the one where peasants are bound to the farms, and anarchy is really political not economic. (It would have to be based on some form of economics, an-com, an-cap, an-syd...). There are a number of quasi-socialistic economic theories which I will readily admit I am not well enough informed to discuss. There is capitalism..

Capitalism is set up with the whole structure geared towards competition. Particularly companies. Companies are particularly set up so that the human element is reduced, so that if they act outside of the wants of the shareholders they are 'bad' and the wants of the shareholders are ever increasing profits. If a rational human would avoid polluting a river, not so with a rational company, so long as the fine for polluting the same river is less than the cost of disposing waste thoughtfully.

The system is set up so that those with money are able to own things, thus earn money without any form of contributing, and those without need to sell their labour, thus contribute without being rewarded in the same bracket as those who contribute nothing. A nurse is paid less than a CEO. A builder is paid less than the person who is a property investor. A cleaner of an office is paid less than the person who owns the office and rents it out. The monetary value of a given job has nothing to do with its importance.

Anyway, at the end, my conclusion is that the socialist/democratic ideal is the best for humanity and the most rational. To each according to their needs, from each according to their ability. The above is my short answer, my rant.
 

Lobstrich

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I think Communism is good at heart. But I don't agree with 'numbering' people. And I don't believe that I could ever actually work.

I am a Socialist though. Or rather a socialdarwinistic socialist. Yeah, that is a bit contradicting. But I believe in helping each other, but only helping those that actually use the opportunities (or try to) that they are given by 'socialism' When people start wasting the luxury of socialism then they should no longer be included in it. In my opinion, of course.

But like many others have said. I can't see a nation being fully socialist or communistic work out... Money.
 

Zionoxis

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Absolutely correct. You are obviously not an idiot.

When I'm king of the world idiocy (as I choose to define it) will be exterminated. The bigger the idiot, the more creative and lingering the method of extermination.

Although, that sounds like a lot of work. Perhaps I'll just invent some kind of death ray that can be broadcast to viewers of certain current affairs programs.

Can I keep this post for a while just for my own self amusement. Also, I do support democracy in a way, but not in its current shape. Currently, as it was put earlier, a large portion of the country is filled with mediocre or even lowly educated as a majority. Unfortunately, this majority is the one who makes the decisions. In my own honest opinion, I am under the belief that one should not be allowed to vote unless they can pass a generalized test given at the polls on how the government functions and which candidates did what.

Basically speaking, I want the country be run (if it is to be run by a group of people) by the intelligent. The last election was as huge wake-up call for many intelligent in America. Obama was elected on majority and many simply elected him because he would be the, 'first black president.' If half of the voters took a test in government before being allowed to vote, that would not have happened. They would be thrown out upon realizing they had no idea what the House of Representatives was.
 

Vecho

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My latest view on this branch of philosophy is that one should allow others to exercise their free will while he does the same, now this part goes utterly wrong, and he should not strip others of their free will while exercising his own. This is literally impossible to do because we are subjects to limitations and those limitations can't be removed. So from this I can only relate to anarchy but I don't see it working out well because of our nature, we created state so we could hide from natures wrath, so how can we go back. Then looking at all social and economical issues, I stress the lack of resources, climate and other nature related issues, I lean towards socialism, I don't like the idea that in socialism, with an inefficient bureaucracy, it's easy to take advantage of the care government gives you. Because of my view towards the issues I mentioned before I say, control the economy but do not allow people to starve, allow them to prosper but not by exhausting our resources but creating art and singing songs. I really like the idea that if you control the money flow and strive for economical equality(not absolute but close) you can attempt to control corruption and the ability to capitalize from money manipulation. It's all about survival isn't it?
 

Hadoblado

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Don't take this as me defending democracy or the actions of any state. I find your comment about letting idiots vote quite amusing. It is never you who is the idiot, right?

I take Roni's position but admit myself sometimes the idiot. I would not let myself vote on matters of the economy, but I'd prefer it if the next man who also knew nothing about it would refrain from doing so as well. Maybe a screening process for people's right to vote on particular topics could be implemented by a central body whom could only be called experts? I dream...
I'm not sure where I stand on socialism and communism, they seem to be great ideals at least. I do know I don't like our current version(s) of democracy and capitalism, though again, I admit myself to be quite uneducated in these matters, and under the regime I would throw my support to, I would quite likely be not allowed to vote :(
 
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