Being unknown

[FusionKnight]

Something Noddy and I were talking about, I wanted to bring up here: I often feel like the person I present to the world is only surface-deep. But it's more than just a mask for the public world. I feel like I am 99% unknown even by the people closest to me (my wife, my parents, my brother, my closest friends). There are thoughts, dreams, fears, questions that I have that I cannot bring myself to share with others, even those who I trust and know love me.

The thing that really saddens me, though, is that nobody seems to realize that what they see is only 1% of who I am, or if they do realize, they don't really want to know the rest. Do the rest of you INTPs suffer this same sorrow of being unknown? Is this just the standard human condition across all personalities?

Noddy and I were discussing this in relationship to creative endeavors. Often that's the only place I can really reveal myself to the world (art, music, poetry, stories, etc). When other people don't understand, don't value, or don't respond to art that I create, I feel devastated, because I feel that that expression is the most real and "naked" I ever am...

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I feel much the same way. I think it is a matter of feeling safer revealing only 1% as my ability to transition from compassion to cruel seems frighteningly easy. I tell myself that it is better for those closest around me. Perhaps it's a cop-out.

I don't know if it is a standard condition. My guess is INTPs are not the only one but doesn't affect all.

 

[Anthile]

Isn't that in general an I thing?

And yes, I feel the same way. But I know it's better for everyone that I don't reveal my inner self.

 

[FusionKnight]

Maybe I'm an outlier INTP then, because I truly do desire to be known, appreciated, and respected, for who I truly am in my deeper innermost core. The problem is, most people don't notice that there's anything beyond surface level, and those who might notice, don't care. This hurts a lot.

 

[Cobra]

Often that's the only place I can really reveal myself to the world (art, music, poetry, stories, etc). When other people don't understand, don't value, or don't respond to art that I create, I feel devastated, because I feel that that expression is the most real and "naked" I ever am...

Two of a feather, Sir Fusion. I sometimes pour my heart into something that I feel is the true me, only to find out that someone thinks it's been staged. It's very frustrating.

Although, sometimes, in song, I prefer it that way. In poetry, I sometimes surprise mySELF at how candid it is. In sketch, I tend to draw fantasies.

But all of those things are very real to me. When I showed my best friend a picture of his "alter ego" (a character named "Baywolf," for the record... I've been writing graphic novels since high school), he said, "That's cool" half-heartedly and looked away. I wanted him to JUMP for JOY, dude! It was not just a picture of my best friend's fake persona. It was a figurative depiction of him as what I feel I really see! A hero!

When I write songs and record them, and my wife cringes and tells me to turn it down, I am hurt very much. When she turns on my old band's music in the car, I am secretly in heaven, but I don't show it for fear that she will turn it off and never comment on it again. When she does, she often makes remarks like, "That line is so clever," or, "This song is my favorite because you say very pretty things in it," or, "Your fingers must have been numb after playing this." Even if she critiques it brutally or makes neutral commentary, I still appreciate her noticing me. But when I revel in my own self, she tends to back out of it and poke fun at me, so I act like I'm indifferent to spare awkward emotions.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Maybe I'm an outlier INTP then, because I truly do desire to be known, appreciated, and respected, for who I truly am in my deeper innermost core. The problem is, most people don't notice that there's anything beyond surface level, and those who might notice, don't care. This hurts a lot.

I should have added above that I too have that desire within me. It's just another part of me that says it would be a bad idea. Inner logic over inner emotion. Of course my inner logic is a bunch of poppycock and is just a defense mechanism to avoid like what you are feeling.

 

[Cobra]

I think that it's perhaps an extension of INTPs' need for clarification. How do you feel about me?

I don't believe the need to hear comfort, receive affection or praise, or be acknowledged is at all exclusively an extrovert thing. I think that when you're deprived of it, no matter what MBTI category under which you fall, you're gonna experience some anguish from the withdrawal. Especially if you know what it feels like to receive it in moderation. If you've never had it, that's a different story.

 

[FusionKnight]

But all of those things are very real to me. When I showed my best friend a picture of his "alter ego" (a character named "Baywolf," for the record... I've been writing graphic novels since high school), he said, "That's cool" half-heartedly and looked away. I wanted him to JUMP for JOY, dude! It was not just a picture of my best friend's fake persona. It was a figurative depiction of him as what I feel I really see! A hero!

When I write songs and record them, and my wife cringes and tells me to turn it down, I am hurt very much. When she turns on my old band's music in the car, I am secretly in heaven, but I don't show it for fear that she will turn it off and never comment on it again. When she does, she often makes remarks like, "That line is so clever," or, "This song is my favorite because you say very pretty things in it," or, "Your fingers must have been numb after playing this." Even if she critiques it brutally or makes neutral commentary, I still appreciate her noticing me. But when I revel in my own self, she tends to back out of it and poke fun at me, so I act like I'm indifferent to spare awkward emotions.

Oh man, this is so true. I recently wrote a poem about my state-of-mind and current spiritual journey. I read it to my wife, and all I got was a "oh, that's interesting". I just wanted to jump up and down and scream "IT'S NOT INTERESTING, THAT'S MY SOUL I'VE JUST STRIPPED BEAR IN FRONT OF YOU!!!" Of course, she doesn't understand that; to her it was just a poem. But the fact that the person closes to me in life doesn't recognize my soul when it's bared is terrifying. Sometimes I feel terribly alone...

 

[Fukyo]

Even though I'm not an INTP I relate to this.Although I have somewhat conflicted feelings.
One part of me keeps my inner being hidden on purpose,to avoid being judged,hurt and/or missunderstood.
The other part feels unappreciated by the outer world and wants it to break free and express itself to others.

 

[Mud~Eye]

I can relate to the initial post. I've had to start taking some risks, emotionally, because the loneliness of not being known has become overwhelming to me most recently. Its like I've reached this strange point in my life where if I don't say, to some extent, what is on my mind or how I feel, somewhere, somehow, despite the response I'll get or the mistakes I'll make, then I can't contain the mixture of feelings that stew around inside. My thinking goes into overdrive trying to sort through all the feelings and the reasons. At least that's how it seems I've been experiencing this new phase of growth.

It sucks spending a lifetime (or about 1/2 of one in my case) surrounded by people who say they love you, but don't really know you. And, there version of love is something I just don't get, because it doesn't reach any part of my soul. People who you'd love to share how you feel about them, life, issues, the world, if only they'd try to get it when you do, or at least make an attempt. And, trust! Ha. Throwing pearls to swine, constantly, or so it seems. They don't know better, but they just broke your heart when they cast aside your idea from some practical gadget or long standing tradition that doesn't even make sense anymore, when all you were trying to do was offer a piece of yourself that might contribute to something that makes a difference for the better. You know you're unkown when the people who say they love you accuse you of being selfish because you need to finally make a stand somewhere or do something for yourself. And, they have no idea how important it must be to you if you finally were taking a visible stand. And, because they don't know, they fuss, and stomp, and kick their feet like they usually do with anything else, and just when they're about to maybe consider that something new is happening here and possibly see some light, they shut you down with, "You are so selfish. Why are you doing this to me/us?" And, you're like, "what do you mean, I just said I definately don't want chinese tonight." (obviously, I'm exaggerating).

Here, on this forum, I've taken some leaps. It's awkward and uncomfortable (even now). I've been embarrassed more than I probably need to be. After I've posted, often, I think and rethink what I've said and how I've said it (despite having read and read before sending it-haha). More often than not, I've wanted to go back and delete it. I resist many times, and let the mistakes hang out there. I've seen others account similiar experiences, and it's helped me to take some risks. The overall experience, so far, has been good.

Here, I've been finding small connections on some level. I'm still new, so I don't expect to know anybody right away, or for them to know me (hopefully it wont take as long as RL relationships have taken). But, reading a thread someone else has posted that says exactly what I had thought, or asked a question that I would have asked has gone a long way in a short time in helping me actually "be" less alone. There are people participating in this forum who are similiar to me and have perhaps been where I am, and seem to have found some balance and possess a measure of maturity intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. I don't think I've ever known a person in RL who can actually relate to me like the people on this forum could, potentially.

I think the MBTI has some information about phases in life and times when different aspects of our personalities need nuturing. I'm not tryin to be too touchy feely here, but it seems to me that if you don't put the plants that need it in the sun, they just won't grow and are likely to die. Who wants that? I've been dead long enough, to a certain degree. That's what I'm saying to me, anyway, so I can try to do things differently, instead of hiding all the time.

Sorry for the rant. A tad resentful, I guess. Working on it.

Edit: OMG I can't believe how long this is.

 

[NoID10ts]

Since Fusion mentioned me, I figured I'd slink out of the shadows for a moment (), because this has been one of my most profound struggles in life.

I generally feel like creativity is the only way I know how to truly express myself. When I have my heart and mind set on a creative endeavor I pour everything I am into it. I do this because I feel like I have something deep within me that needs to be said, but I don’t know how to say it. It’s deeply personal to me, but at the same time, it’s meant to be shared just like a speech is meant to be shared. When people don’t get it, it’s devastating.

When I was dating my wife in college we were apart for a few months during the summer break. I spent the entire summer painting a picture of her that I was really proud of. I felt like I was expressing my feelings about her the only way I knew how, but the first time she saw it, I could tell immediately that she didn’t like it. I was crushed, and she felt awful about it, but she was just being honest. I didn’t do a single piece of art for 8 or 9 years after that. I have since had a couple of similar experiences, one at a church, and the other with my airbrush business, and once again, I have no desire to do any art and I closed my airbrush business.

But I never feel resentment toward others for not getting it or liking it. I just feel a deep self loathing at my own failings. My life has been a succession of failures in this regard and each time it feels like more and more of me dies.

 

[saffyangelis]

I think I know what you mean, but in my case, it's not if i'm able to show more than that 1%, it's if I would. I don't tend to trust people much, and I don't know if I could let myself actually let go enough to let anyone else see me for exactly who I really am.

Maybe i'm just getting too used to having a mask to hide behind, but I don't know if I could do that. I'd be too worried about something happening to me like what's happened to you, someone seeing that little fragment of my soul, and just stamping on it without even realising.

I keep anything that I draw and i'm proud of hidden so my sisters can't comment on it, 'cos I know they're more likely to think it's stupid than actually think about it. They see one side of it, but I see another, and it's my side that has the impact, not theirs.

 

[Chimera]

Hm...I'm not sure if I identify with this or not. How much of myself I reveal is based on how comfortable I am around someone, and how much I want them to know.

I have very few tightly-guarded secrets about myself. Most of who I am is hidden behind a very thin layer. Often all it takes to get me to talk is genuine interest and honest curiosity. Of course, that part is a bit hard to explain....whether I feel comfortable giving information about myself relies heavily on my Ne. If I feel like the person is truly interested in finding out something about me, then I'll usually have no problem telling them, unless my intuition tells me otherwise. And yeah, there's a certain level of familiarity that has to be met for some parts of myself...for example, I wouldn't tell most of my acquaintances at school about the issues I have with my father. But things like my thoughts or dreams...if they ask, I'll tell.

Of course, if I feel the person's interest slipping, then I change the course of the conversation. That way I'm giving them what they want to know, they understand me as much as they wish to, and I don't feel like I'm trying in vain to have my "true self" known.

I want people around me to understand who I am as well. I rarely offer up personal information unless I'm asked though. I'm okay whether people understand me or not...because, since I know that I'm open about things when asked, I know that their understanding of me depends on how much they want to understand.

Unfortunately, this sometimes makes it painfully obvious how much people just don't care....

My family are really the only ones who I feel have little understanding of me. (I don't like my father and I don't want to tell him about the inner workings of my mind, so he doesn't count.) For example, my mother, who I'm close to and care for deeply, has little understanding about who I am because she is a very judgmental person. So while I wish I could tell her things about myself...I feel it's better for our relationship if I don't.


Sorry if that post makes no sense. I'm a little dizzy. ^^;
​

 

[Cobra]

I think it makes perfect sense. You pick up on social cues. I think that this might be something an INTP has to constantly refresh and study in order to stay social. If they don't they end up like the textbook version of their category. The highly social INTP, I'm assuming, is something like a muscle that is flexed.

That banana is pleasing to me, too.

 

[Cegorach]

I think I stick around here despite my inability to handle continuous social conduct because it allows me to express myself in some small way.
I always feel a tug of war between wanting to form relationships with others and detaching myself from the situation entirely...
I can only assume I give off mixed signals to others, but I really do appreciate the level of acceptance around here and find that I am just unable to deal with any more external pressures.

I also despise making mistakes or being indecisive. I have no problem when others do so, it would be unreasonable to expect anything else, but when I do so it aggravates me. I should know better and act according to my knowledge, my emotions should be considered logically and used reasonably, it just kills me when I act on them without consideration.

 

[Chimera]

Cobra;;
It probably helps that I'm surrounded by people in school every day...and instead of withdrawing into myself like I want to, I make an effort to connect with the people around me. I guess it has something to do with wanting to find a spark of goodness in everyone, then holding on to it and making it grow as soon as it's found. People both fascinate and disgust me at the same time. But apparently that's not an uncommon viewpoint.

And I'm actually not INFx, not INTP. But I don't put much weight on the MBTI theory. (:
​

 

[FusionKnight]

That banana is pleasing to me, too.

But why is it melting????

 

[Dissident]

Introspective time:

This is mostly my case, but it probably applies to other INTPs as well. I think that one of the causes for this is that we are intellectually precocius and blunt as kids, so we are usually perceived as cold and mean and not behaving the way we "should". This leads to unpleasant, sad situations which we then feel bad about, we are left with a sense of regret for having expressed ourselves in the first place.

As time passes we speak our minds less and less, partly to not hurt others, partly because it hurts ourselves. We end up subconsciously (or not) identifying our thoughts and opinions as bad, inappropiate, wrong, etc (that's the image we see reflected in other's mirrors), so it's natural we don't want people to know them.

As we grow older the sense of being bad/wrong goes away, but you confirm that in most cases people do consider your ideas that way, that they effectively don't, and probably can't understand you and we have developed almost no ability and/or will to do something about it. Sometimes we try to convince ourselves that we don't want it/ we are above it/ give up on it, etc, but the need to be really accepted and appreciated is there, with years of accumulated hunger, and we either find a way to make it happen, or we grow bitter.

 

[Cobra]

I think that one of the causes for this is that we are intellectually precocius and blunt as kids, so we are usually perceived as cold and mean and not behaving the way we "should". This leads to unpleasant, sad situations which we then feel bad about, we are left with a sense of regret for having expressed ourselves in the first place.

In my case, I'd have to half disagree. Although the part about being intellectually precocious might coincide with the feelings I had as a child of being more mature than the other kids, I don't seem to remember ever being blunt (at least, not profoundly). This may be a minority case on either of our parts. I do, however, feel that, as a child, my ideas/ideals were very much shat on whenever they came out.

I once upon a time had very bluntly stated to a group of my friends that I had been trying to tell them all a story of something that had happened to me earlier that day for about 30 minutes. Each time I had opened my mouth, I had been shot down by someone else's story or mindless banter. I told them (in so many words) that my life had thus far been a series of these types of incidents. I told them that I would never tell another story again. I think that I had shocked them in such a way that they had suddenly realized that it was true. They were taken aback, and to this day, they've always been a little more attuned to what I'm saying.

In my group of friends, I'm never formally given command. But interestingly, when I moved sixty miles north of our suburban home to live with my girlfriend (now wife ), they slowly began to fall apart. They explained that they missed me and that I was "the glue" in the group, though I rarely was ever given any respect by them. Then, suddenly, within the interval of a year, one by one, they all began moving closer and closer north. Some of them even hopped homes 3 times within that year until they settled on the north end of Chicago. They now all live within a 10-20 minute driving distance from my house. I have no idea how this happened. It still shocks me.

The group is still not the same it was in high school and college (or in "the band days" as they refer to it), but they all seem to long for those days again. I've heard from several people that in candid conversation, every one of them has called me their "leader." I have no memories to account for this. Was I some sort of silent king?

 

[FF]

Isn't that in general an I thing?

Probably, but I think it's more of a concern for INTPs, since we aren't ones to show people our true feelings. We just sort of work our way through the world in a robot-like fashion...

 

[Seducer of the Homeless]

only robotic on the outside though....

on the inside i am simmering with extreme amounts of emotion, pain....

it just won't come out

 

[Cobra]

it just won't come out

Emotional constipation?

You should try let ting it come out here (that sounded really corny... Heh... Corn). Otherwise, like regular constipation, the longer you wait to medicate, the nastier the mess is when you finally do.

 

[QSR]

An INTP Mixer:

 

[Da Blob]

The quest of our lives, to be able to find the answer to a single question, WHO AM I??
Cogito Ergo Sum, but what does the word Sum compose? I believe that what I have read in the posts on this thread involves issues of Self and Identity, a topic which has fascinated me for quite a while now, again motivated by the same questions-emotions-voids as the rest of you I have not found the answers as so much as defined the questions a bit better...

People are mirrors, so when some dear to you discounts an attempt at a personal revelation of one's self thru some type of artistic self-expression, it provides a a disappointing reflection of one's "real" self. It also indicates a lack of respect. I don't mean a display of disrespect, but rather a tendency by others not to re-spect one, to look a bit deeper, to see with new eyes.

I honestly believe that we are imprisoned in a type of Solipistic existence, that is why I believe we respect good artists so much, they seem to break out their own prisons on occasions to share something of Self. Mud Eye mentioned that (she or he?) is upset when people simply did not recognize the attempts at sharing Self through the mundane opportunities at hand. That was a good point and I have been guilty in discounting those types of input, myself, never looking for the motivation behind an Other's statement or contribution to a conversation.

Personally, I have found comfort in my religion for this and many other flaws in my life. I think that the statement in Genesis that "Adam Knew Eve" perhaps indicates a type of "Knowing" that is only possible in unusually deep relationships, one where the word, We has more meaning than the words me or I. I find a great deal of comfort in that at least God knows and understands me and for some unaccountable reason - still loves me...

 

[sagewolf]

I can relate to the OP quite a lot as well. I rarely feel rejected by friends, though; it's immediate family who have the greatest power, it seems, to hurt me through rejection. I went to the effort, once or twice, of expressing my feelings to my family. I won't give details, but the reaction I received, when I was telling them about something that was truly causing me anguish, was less than empathetic. Indeed, I have never received a truly sympathetic response to any grievance I've ever aired to my family, so i eventually stopped trying. I think it hurt because I expected them to care; having my feelings discounted by them hurt more than it would have were it anyone else.

It's possible that what happens is that when other people shoot us down like that, we try to inwardly play it down, by telling ourselves that their opinions don't matter, but when it's a person whose opinion we value that's shooting us down, it's harder to do that, so we turn to the idea or the expression that we revealed and say that that doesn't matter, which is only ever going to hurt more: when we do that, we're rejecting ourselves, because we know how important the expression is/was to us and how deep a place it came from. Either that, or we decide not to express ourselves again, which may be the same thing-- we're saying that trying to communicate what we're feeling isn't worth the risk of being hurt. If we reject our values, ideas and selves, then how can we believe anything we say or do has any value? (And if it has no value, why communicate it?)

Just thought I'd treat you to a random idea I came up with at three in the morning there. Ugh.

 

[Cobra]

I think that the statement in Genesis that "Adam Knew Eve" perhaps indicates a type of "Knowing" that is only possible in unusually deep relationships, one where the word, We has more meaning than the words me or I.

Hmm... Well, if by unusually deep, you mean deep enough to make love, then I guess I get where you're coming from.

 

[Da Blob]

Hmm... Well, if by unusually deep, you mean deep enough to make love, then I guess I get where you're coming from.

As to opposed to merely having casual sex, as if with a stranger? Yes, i think that certainly would have to be a component of the type of "Knowing" i was talking about. However, I hope I was referring to a deep intimacy, that is becoming rarer and rarer in this modern world...

Besides how many people, today, would actually be getting any, if their partners actually 'knew' who they were having sex with...?

 

[echoplex]

The thing that really saddens me, though, is that nobody seems to realize that what they see is only 1% of who I am, or if they do realize, they don't really want to know the rest. Do the rest of you INTPs suffer this same sorrow of being unknown? Is this just the standard human condition across all personalities?

Yes, it does annoy me that others seem quite confident that they already know others, despite how little they may be shown. I do think it's partially my fault though. I often hold back with what I let others see of myself, so I honestly can't be upset if that's all they perceive.

I think what you're talking about is more of a general Introvert thing, although being blessed (cursed) with Ne and shadowed Fe perhaps makes this worse. I think this is what often leads people to artistic expression; kind of a last resort at being "known."

 

[Ermine]

Something Noddy and I were talking about, I wanted to bring up here: I often feel like the person I present to the world is only surface-deep. But it's more than just a mask for the public world. I feel like I am 99% unknown even by the people closest to me (my wife, my parents, my brother, my closest friends). There are thoughts, dreams, fears, questions that I have that I cannot bring myself to share with others, even those who I trust and know love me.

The thing that really saddens me, though, is that nobody seems to realize that what they see is only 1% of who I am, or if they do realize, they don't really want to know the rest. Do the rest of you INTPs suffer this same sorrow of being unknown? Is this just the standard human condition across all personalities?

Noddy and I were discussing this in relationship to creative endeavors. Often that's the only place I can really reveal myself to the world (art, music, poetry, stories, etc). When other people don't understand, don't value, or don't respond to art that I create, I feel devastated, because I feel that that expression is the most real and "naked" I ever am...

I can totally relate. I'm not disposed to telling everything about myself to begin with, and even when I do tell people about myself, I always get weird looks and they don't even try to understand me. Sometimes, people can't even understand my skin deep characteristics, such as my being an artist or being smart, or seeing the big picture.

While my friends and family understand the skin deep part of me, I still have to explain the deeper stuff over and over again, even to my best friend and sister of several years.

And on the subject of art, it's gotten to the point that I don't express my innermost feelings in my art in more obvious ways. I already know that people never understand my art, though they always value it from an aesthetic standpoint. For example, I once made a portrait of a classmate, and added an IV in his arm. People made all the wrong conclusions. It was all symbolic - the guy looked like what I felt inside and the IV represents unwilling dependence on others. Instead, I got comments like "emo", "is he sick", "why did you draw him with an IV?" "drug addict" etc. It was disappointing. Art would be so much more fulfilling for me if I could draw such parallels, and openly express myself in my artwork and have it be understood.

 

[echoplex]

For example, I once made a portrait of a classmate, and added an IV in his arm. People made all the wrong conclusions. It was all symbolic - the guy looked like what I felt inside and the IV represents unwilling dependence on others. Instead, I got comments like "emo", "is he sick", "why did you draw him with an IV?" "drug addict" etc. It was disappointing. Art would be so much more fulfilling for me if I could draw such parallels, and openly express myself in my artwork and have it be understood.

This is what happens when non-intuitives try to appreciate art.

 

[Ermine]

It was even odder since this was in an art specialty center. You'd think there would be a higher percentage of intuitives. At least my teacher got it.

 

[echoplex]

I think a common problem for us intuitives is that we assume that others "get" us. This can be especially tough when you're an introvert too.

 

[Ermine]

True. I suppose even intutives would be getting different intutions and still be confused.

 

[Thaklaar]

Take it as a given that no-one will understand me. I don't even bother trying to explain anymore. Long since decided that it's fine as long as I'm amusing myself.

 

[Cobra]

As to opposed to merely having casual sex, as if with a stranger? Yes, i think that certainly would have to be a component of the type of "Knowing" i was talking about. However, I hope I was referring to a deep intimacy, that is becoming rarer and rarer in this modern world...

Besides how many people, today, would actually be getting any, if their partners actually 'knew' who they were having sex with...?

Well... yeah. I guess we're on the same page. I'm not really sure, though. "Knowing" in the biblical sense is definitely intimate. That's its message, but its implication is always physical. I wasn't sure if you were talking about just having a relationship with someone or if you were referring to the kind of knowing that Adam and Eve were written to have had. That kind of knowing isn't exactly common, though it's copied. We're up to nearly 7 billion people now. I certainly wish people would stop pretending to know one another. It's getting crowded.

 

[Mud~Eye]

I use to write, short stories, and unfinished novels, years ago. Listening to you guys talk about expressing yourselves through art has me thinking. I want to say, though, how sad I think it is that you, Ermine and others, are so discouraged from continuing to put yourselves into your art, even though I understand. I hate to think of such talent not being used and those of us who might appreciate the symbolism being robbed of that beauty, depth, imagery, and passion because the masses just don't "get" it. Maybe there will come a time when someone will gather the piece or collection and reveal it to the world for their enlightenment. Isn't that the way it goes, sometimes? Idealistic, perhaps. Unrealistic, I don't think so. Besides, ceasing to write creatively has closed off an outlet for me. I think we can all see how that has turned out. I'm sometimes like a frickin teapot on high for too long.

 

[Mud~Eye]

Introspective time:...As we grow older the sense of being bad/wrong goes away, but you confirm that in most cases people do consider your ideas that way, that they effectively don't, and probably can't understand you and we have developed almost no ability and/or will to do something about it. Sometimes we try to convince ourselves that we don't want it/ we are above it/ give up on it, etc, but the need to be really accepted and appreciated is there, with years of accumulated hunger, and we either find a way to make it happen, or we grow bitter.

This is quite insightful. I'm glad to have heard this part, especially "...years of accumulated hunger, and we either find a way to make it happen or we grow bitter."

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

I've found some people that I can really open up to. An ENFP, INFP, INTP. Heh, maybe Perseus has something with the definition of Psychedelic xNxPs.

What I found the most awkward are moments when people are close to getting beyond-skin-deep and I feel like they aren't going to be ready for it, but I also feel like I should be honest. I was in a leadership class and in one activity we would walk forward 10 feet, turn around, and face the rest of the people, and then walk back if we agreed with the statement that had just been said. There was no talking during the activity, but I was standing next to Sylvia, a girl who I really don't see eye-to-eye with, but we still had a way of noticing eachother and making eye contact.

It was a weird activity because you had to act fast to walk with everyone else who agreed with the statement. And they were pretty personal things. A simple one came up: "I am happy at <name of the university>." I was plunged into thought, judging whether I am happy or not. Either way, I took too long, or wasn't happy enough to give an absolute 'yes'. When Sylvia walked back we looked into eachother's eyes, and there was like... a small amount of shock in her eyes.

I dunno. There's other moments, in normal conversation, when I really am comfortable with what I'm about to divulge, especially since I feel like it's going to really change the person's view of me, and reveal the darker/contemplative/depressed side of me.

 

[Waterstiller]

Oh man, this is so true. I recently wrote a poem about my state-of-mind and current spiritual journey. I read it to my wife, and all I got was a "oh, that's interesting". I just wanted to jump up and down and scream "IT'S NOT INTERESTING, THAT'S MY SOUL I'VE JUST STRIPPED BEAR IN FRONT OF YOU!!!" Of course, she doesn't understand that; to her it was just a poem. But the fact that the person closes to me in life doesn't recognize my soul when it's bared is terrifying. Sometimes I feel terribly alone...

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but I feel a need to let you know that they're still only seeing 1% of what's in front of them. Like you're giving them a book to read in a language only you can understand.

They're used to seeing only 1%.. maybe they're conditioned that way?


I feel like even the people who know me best only catch about 1%; the rest of my thoughts never leave my head. I'm afraid, though, to be understood in anything more than small increments. The more people know about me and what I'm going to do the less I exist independently of them - I lose myself. I fear showing my art to people in the fear that they'll understand me more than I want them to. That they'll see right through my skills. Or worse yet - they'll love it(maybe even after understanding it). I show my music (and I've recorded 2.5 entire well-produced CDs worth) to no one. I don't like expressing myself; I'm a minimalist. That might change, however - one of my oldest friends was recently murdered and it has been really nice to be able to listen to her music. For her to keep her music and talent to herself would have been an absence of something beautiful. As much as I don't like exposing myself, perhaps I shouldn't die with my music inside of me.

I think I expose myself more on here than anywhere else. A heavily censored self, but still. I might expose 2%. Which is a lot in comparison with anywhere else. Nobody else even knows how depressed I am. It's so weird.. I used to tell my ex that she's the only person who's ever seen even a little bit of me. I'm just a character to everyone else in varying degrees.

This thread reminds me of one of my favorite films. The main character is given a couple months to live and she decides to not tell anyone and make preparations for her death by herself. There's a scene where she's confronted by another character who says 'I only feel like I know 5% of you.' He goes on to question whether he'd love her if he knew more than that. It's an extremely emotionally raw independent film called "My life without me." Honestly, I think every INTP would benefit from this film. The main character seems INT_.

(I'll be reading the rest of this thread later.. thanks for starting it, fusionknight)

 

[Kuu]

Take it as a given that no-one will understand me. I don't even bother trying to explain anymore. Long since decided that it's fine as long as I'm amusing myself.

Same here. In that sense, I have given up on marriage and "relationships" in the traditional manner. People can never truly understand each other. If people can only see 1% of who I am, I can attempt to give a different 1% to each person, and hopefully at least, in this distributed manner, I can be myself fully in spite of all the disconnection...

In many ways this forum provides more connection than entire years of my life.


And speaking of art...I dislike words because I can rarely express what I want to. Artistic expression is also my only outlet to connect, however awkwardly... Like Ermine says, a few people can provide aesthetic appraisal, but few if any ever recognize what I am trying to say. They see the art but they don't recognize me in it, and I am left feeling empty. Perhaps in futility, I still show some of my stuff to select people; but all of my work is now done for myself, without any specific intent to communicate to others.

But still, I do find some connection with the art of others. Even though my interpretations might be wrong, and I am making up my own, selfishly appropriating the piece for my own purposes... It is what keeps me from going insane. A life without art would be a life not worth living.

One last desperate hope.

^ That's an example of art that I identify with (that whole "comic" is quite INxP)... But my friends have never understood why I like to take portraits. They just care about how they look, and awkwardly recoil whenever they notice me holding a camera... while I am there, desperately trying to connect, craving for intimacy... and perhaps the photos can leap the distance between us, and at least capture a fragment of that person, a part of them that I care for so that it is not lost in time...

 

[Da Blob]

Yeah! I'm basically on the same page, as Tekton...
I discovered it is much better to be alone than with the wrong significant Other.

as far as art/photos
http://s715.photobucket.com/albums/ww156/DaBlob/?albumview=grid

It seems odd that we have two threads going concerning "The Unknown"

Fearing the Unknown and Being the Unknown...

I wonder it is possible To Fear One's Self?

 

[Kuu]

It seems odd that we have two threads going concerning "The Unknown"

Fearing the Unknown and Being the Unknown...

I wonder it is possible To Fear One's Self?

Fear. And self-loathe. I believe this innate contradiction to be on of the main sources of the INTP's despair. In their search for knowledge and clarity, it is themselves that remain the ultimate challenge... And if one seeks to vanquish all shadows, so that all can see... what is to be done with themselves, if not self-destruction?

 

[The Fury]

INTPs are often called the chameleon and that's very much how I act in real life. I rarely present the same identity to more than one person. I can integrate myself into any group I want but I never really feel I belong there.

For me when I'm in a relationship with someone I love, i tend to show more of myself, especially when sex is involved.

 

[loveofreason]

Do the rest....suffer this same sorrow of being unknown?

I tell myself that it is better for those closest around me. Perhaps it's a cop-out.

...I truly do desire to be known, appreciated, and respected, for who I truly am in my deeper innermost core.

I always feel a tug of war between wanting to form relationships with others and detaching myself from the situation entirely...

...with years of accumulated hunger, and we either find a way to make it happen, or we grow bitter.

...it's immediate family who have the greatest power, it seems, to hurt me through rejection. I have never received a truly sympathetic response to any grievance I've ever aired to my family, so i eventually stopped trying.

The more people know about me and what I'm going to do the less I exist independently of them - I lose myself.

In many ways this forum provides more connection than entire years of my life.

Kudos to Fusionknight and all the thoughtful respondents.

I just had to pull out a handful of lines that particularly struck me... what sagewolf related about her experience in her family particularly applies to me.

Through such experience I have become very secretive. The more something matters to me the less likely I am to reveal that thing to those closest. Strangers don't enter the category of "people whose rejection can hurt me", so it winds up being the people closest to me that I hide the most from... all the while despairing of wanting acknowledgment from them.

It must seem so peculiar from the outside... for someone drawn close by revelations made while they were still in the harmless category...getting closer and finding the object of attraction becoming more and more inscrutable until finally they are in bed, so to speak, with someone more distant and stranger than when they met...

We set up these impossible puzzles and suspend ourselves in such agony... is it fair to want to be totally known, acknowledged and appreciated whilst being completely hidden?

And when it comes to perceiving others and offering validation, how successful are we?

Are our skills in knowing others failing? Or do we all suffer incidentally because the quest for knowing is, as Tekton suggests, turned inward on the greatest mystery we can't quite behold.., ourselves.

If we utilise others as props to aid self-understanding, can we also make the effort to acknowledge them, to actually see them?

But yes, to address the OP... one wants to be known, and despairs of being known. Yet one seems to be the greatest obstacle to such needs of the self.

...perhaps that is not fair to lay all the blame with oneself, we are subject to inherited patterns and the social weave that binds us. Breaking free and being seen requires the right audience, the right theatre.

 

[Halcyon]

I have an emotional core which I keep to myself that only truly exposes itself in songs that I write. If I meet some one who I feel has the capacity to understand me, I withhold myself for fear of making myself vulnerable in being understood. But if I meet someone who I doubt could understand me, I withhold my self for fear of making myself vulnerable in being rejected. I'm basing this mostly off if, hypothetically, I were to show some one else my songs, because as people were saying about their art, they reflect my emotions and my life on the deepest of levels. If some one were to understand them or reject them I would feel vulnerable either way, so I just keep them to myself.

INTPs are often called the chameleon and that's very much how I act in real life. I rarely present the same identity to more than one person. I can integrate myself into any group I want but I never really feel I belong there.

...my ability to transition from compassion to cruel seems frighteningly easy.

I can definitely relate with these description. How I choose to express myself to other people is a usually a consciously controlled process. When it is this way it is because I can't actually relate to the people I'm with on a deeper level. Extroverts on the other hand don't seem to have this problem. They probably couldn't even relate to what I mean by "consciously-controlled self expression". I also find it all too easy to manipulate other people's perception of me. Of course I have a fundamental personality which I can never really escape (not that I try to), but the extent to which I express my true self can depend on the purpose I have in mind when building relationships with other people. I can go from a stone-cold stare to playful laughter instantly. Many people can't even seem to make certain expressions if it is not part of their personality. Perhaps it is that most people interact in social situations whereas many times I simply act.

 

[Da Blob]

I have an emotional core which I keep to myself that only truly exposes itself in songs that I write. If I meet some one who I feel has the capacity to understand me, I withhold myself for fear of making myself vulnerable in being understood. But if I meet someone who I doubt could understand me, I withhold my self for fear of making myself vulnerable in being rejected. I'm basing this mostly off if, hypothetically, I were to show some one else my songs, because as people were saying about their art, they reflect my emotions and my life on the deepest of levels. If some one were to understand them or reject them I would feel vulnerable either way, so I just keep them to myself.
I can definitely relate with these description. How I choose to express myself to other people is a usually a consciously controlled process. When it is this way it is because I can't actually relate to the people I'm with on a deeper level. Extroverts on the other hand don't seem to have this problem. They probably couldn't even relate to what I mean by "consciously-controlled self expression". I also find it all too easy to manipulate other people's perception of me. Of course I have a fundamental personality which I can never really escape (not that I try to), but the extent to which I express my true self can depend on the purpose I have in mind when building relationships with other people. I can go from a stone-cold stare to playful laughter instantly. Many people can't even seem to make certain expressions if it is not part of their personality. Perhaps it is that most people interact in social situations whereas many times I simply act.

I posted the below before, please forgive me if you have already read it...

To know oneself, one may reflect on one's inner experience, but one also needs to know how one is seen by others. This external knowledge can be obtained only through the feedback provided by others. The reactions of others will not be very valuable unless they are in response to parts of ourselves that we care about, and these can be known to others only if we are willing to disclose them. If one never takes any meaningful actions but remains at a level of trivial conversation, the quality of what is reflected back will be at the same level. In addition, feedback from others is self-disclosure on their part. If one is in a group where members will not disclose either their inner responses or their reactions to what others do, think, and feel, then personal and collective learning will be severely limited. Disclosure and feedback are the necessary conditions for the development of interpersonal relationships.

The question that we each must face is what to disclose about ourselves when we are eager to gain acceptance and what we keep hidden. The most natural thing to do is to reveal only those things that we are sure will be accepted and keep private what we anticipate others will reject. Yet this sets in place the inner sense that, when others do accept us, it is all a sham they are not in a position to reject the "real me" because I have kept it hidden. If others were to know "what I am really like," if I let them see the ugly parts of me that are unacceptable even to me (which is, after all, why I keep them locked away inside), then they would reject me. Thus, the acceptance I gain is unacceptable to me, because it is not based on the parts of me that I "know" are unacceptable. I set myself up to believe those who are accepting me as being unacceptable, paradoxically rejecting the very source from which I crave acceptance when I am given the acceptance I seek. Of course, were I able to accept myself, with all my flaws, acceptance by others would be less important to me, and hence I would be less prone to reject the acceptance that I’m offered.

How many times does one have to have Trust Betrayed,
before one quits Trusting?
Trusting is a risky, often painful, seldom rewarding
part of human relationships.
One can point to the big betrayals,
the heartbreakings and the heartbreakers,
however, for me it is the smallest betrayals
that wear the heaviest.
The betrayals of misunderstanding
that are so common and so sad.
It takes an Intimate to break one's heart,
but a total Stranger can misunderstand ....
and the world is full of Strangers
and even the few Intimates
can be transformed into Strangers
with just one betrayal, one misunderstanding...

 

[Ermine]

I have an emotional core which I keep to myself that only truly exposes itself in songs that I write. If I meet some one who I feel has the capacity to understand me, I withhold myself for fear of making myself vulnerable in being understood. But if I meet someone who I doubt could understand me, I withhold my self for fear of making myself vulnerable in being rejected. I'm basing this mostly off if, hypothetically, I were to show some one else my songs, because as people were saying about their art, they reflect my emotions and my life on the deepest of levels. If some one were to understand them or reject them I would feel vulnerable either way, so I just keep them to myself.

I'm in the same situation. However, I've recently come to the conclusion that I want to break down those walls and feel vulnerable. A big way people misunderstand me is the misconception that I'm "invincible", meaning that I'm not subject to the drama my peers put up with, they assume I know everything, I come off as confident, and I don't say much. Much of my day to day interaction consists of trying to convince people that I don't know everything, and that I'm just an unassuming, friendly girl that wants to learn. No matter what I do, hardly anyone approaches me.

Both understanding and misunderstanding are vulnerable, but through my experience, I would rather be understood and vulnerable, possibly disliked than misunderstood. I've made a point to keep the chameleon mechanism in check and be myself, for better or worse. I want to surrender, not that I ever picked a fight in the first place.

 

[Anling]

Something Noddy and I were talking about, I wanted to bring up here: I often feel like the person I present to the world is only surface-deep. But it's more than just a mask for the public world. I feel like I am 99% unknown even by the people closest to me (my wife, my parents, my brother, my closest friends). There are thoughts, dreams, fears, questions that I have that I cannot bring myself to share with others, even those who I trust and know love me.

The thing that really saddens me, though, is that nobody seems to realize that what they see is only 1% of who I am, or if they do realize, they don't really want to know the rest. Do the rest of you INTPs suffer this same sorrow of being unknown? Is this just the standard human condition across all personalities?

Noddy and I were discussing this in relationship to creative endeavors. Often that's the only place I can really reveal myself to the world (art, music, poetry, stories, etc). When other people don't understand, don't value, or don't respond to art that I create, I feel devastated, because I feel that that expression is the most real and "naked" I ever am...

Oh man, this is so true. I recently wrote a poem about my state-of-mind and current spiritual journey. I read it to my wife, and all I got was a "oh, that's interesting". I just wanted to jump up and down and scream "IT'S NOT INTERESTING, THAT'S MY SOUL I'VE JUST STRIPPED BEAR IN FRONT OF YOU!!!" Of course, she doesn't understand that; to her it was just a poem. But the fact that the person closes to me in life doesn't recognize my soul when it's bared is terrifying. Sometimes I feel terribly alone...

I generally feel like creativity is the only way I know how to truly express myself. When I have my heart and mind set on a creative endeavor I pour everything I am into it. I do this because I feel like I have something deep within me that needs to be said, but I don’t know how to say it. It’s deeply personal to me, but at the same time, it’s meant to be shared just like a speech is meant to be shared. When people don’t get it, it’s devastating.

I too feel like just about every one I know doesn't really know me. Even when I try to open up they seem to misunderstand. I also use creative to bear my soul as it were. These are my hopes and dreams and all the things that need saying that I can't say any other way. I even shared one such poem with my mom once and the only response she had was to be defensive and hurt because I wasn't some perfectly happy child. I haven't really shared much else with her, or anyone else. It seems like every time I try to let anyone else know what's going on in my head I just get shot down. But I still want to create and put myself into my creations. I need to do so. I'm always hoping that someone will actually see me in there and not just what they expect me to be.

It's so frustrating. I simultaneously want to be understood and fear it at the same time. I even fear knowing myself a little. I guess I'm a little afraid that the apparent opinions of all those around me are correct and there isn't really anything but what they see. Logically I know that isn't true (I have all sorts of thoughts and ideas they don't see), but I guess I'm just chock full of little phobias I didn't know I had. I suppose I create just as much to be able to know myself as to be known by others.

 

[FusionKnight]

These Anna Nalick lyrics describe quite well what my art (creativity) is to me (and it sounds like to most of us):

2 AM and I'm still awake, writing a song
If I get it all down on paper, it's no longer inside of me,
Threatening the life it belongs to
And I feel like I'm naked in front of the crowd
Cause these words are my diary, screaming out loud
And I know that you'll use them, however you want to

 

[LucasM]

How many times does one have to have Trust Betrayed,
before one quits Trusting?
Trusting is a risky, often painful, seldom rewarding
part of human relationships.
One can point to the big betrayals,
the heartbreakings and the heartbreakers,
however, for me it is the smallest betrayals
that wear the heaviest.
The betrayals of misunderstanding
that are so common and so sad.
It takes an Intimate to break one's heart,
but a total Stranger can misunderstand ....
and the world is full of Strangers
and even the few Intimates
can be transformed into Strangers
with just one betrayal, one misunderstanding...

I must say, I find the above amazing... Thanks.

It sure can be frustrating, and at times I must confess I give up trying to have others understand, but the problem is, that by doing so, I give up on a part of myself every time I do so, rationalizing it away, saying that perhaps it isn`t really so important?

It can make one despair.

But, while not everyone can understand everything about ourselves, it is reassuring when, like the diamond in the rough, we find someone we can connect to in some fashion, and who can connect back. One small connection, a teaspoon of understanding, is worth more than than the whole mountainous range of misunderstanding we have to endure, day after day.

Trust is valuable
the rejection poignant
and the blessings?
insurmountable.