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Archetypal Men & Women

flow

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Doesn't it seem like the archetypal man would be an ESTJ, and the archetypal woman an INFP? You always hear of "women's intuition", and it's pretty much common knowledge that a man should be thinking and a woman feeling.. Men are suppose to make decisions, etc, etc. This brings me to my next question: Do you act more masculine or feminine in day to day interactions? I tend to be somewhat of an effeminate guy, probably because I'm practically an INFP. What about you?
 

Auburn

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Doesn't it seem like the archetypal man would be an ESTJ, and the archetypal woman an INFP? You always hear of "women's intuition", and it's pretty much common knowledge that a man should be thinking and a woman feeling.. Men are suppose to make decisions, etc, etc.
So it seems...
I think that in these last two hundred years this heirarchy has greatly diminished, however for much of earth's history these gender stereotypes seemed to be a necessity for society to survive. Warriors needed to be bold and commanding (ESTJ) and women would be much better off being passive and loving (INFP); everything just worked much better that way.

Then again, if you do look at these two as archetypes, you'd have to note just how much closer an INTP is to the female type (INFP) than the male type (ESTJ) - one letter difference compared to three. Would this possibly hint at the INTP personality to be one of the most effeminated of the thinkers? This leads to the next question:

Do you act more masculine or feminine in day to day interactions? I tend to be somewhat of an effeminate guy, probably because I'm practically an INFP. What about you?
I act at the minimal requirements to pass as masculine in this society. I've studied my own movements and memorized the proper gestures to pass as a typical, normal guy (i.e. firm handshakes, proper posture, projecting voice).

In my mind, however, it's difficult to tell. I am almost completely neutral in regards to masculinity and femininity - if that is even possible. It's difficult to describe. As I told Kidege in another thread, I prefer to just look at the context of someone's mind for what it is; separate from anything external like age, race, gender. My own desire for detachment has separated me even from ascribing to any of these two. Nevertheless, there just might be a very minute, negligible inclination to femininity.
 

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When discussing archetypal gender roles and their types before (oddly enough, I have) I've gone back to nature to decide. I say men are ISTx, while women are ENFx (not "undeterminable type X", but "variable x"). My reasons: In hunter-gatherer societies, women are social creatures. They do all of the things that require sitting around in groups: weaving, foraging, looking after the children, preparing meals for the tribe, that sort of thing; while men do the solo activities: hunting (even when in groups, the activity requires silence and focus on the task at hand), making tools, building shelters, skinning, and all that. It seems a natural extension of this E/I divide that women would go more towards dominant extraverted feeling (ENFJ - the function most associated with social interaction and keeping people happy) and extraverted intuition (ENFP - the function most associated with understanding relationships, between people as well as between things) while men would go more towards introverted thinking (ISTP, which has Se as its auxiliary function - the combination of which enable the quick formation of strategies, useful for hunting, war, and other trivial practical things) and introverted sensing (ISTJ, the function most associated with an understanding, or belief, that things should be a certain way - very much required by a pragmatic handyman who has no time to embellish and experiment). In a non-functional analysis, the men require S to do all the practical things they're expected to do, and the women require N to understand and manage all the intricate social complexities of the tribe. For the reasons stated above (that two types of each gender are "archetypal") I don't say that P or J are particularly associated with either gender. It's that dichotomy that would have led to conflict within the two gender groups, after all.
I think to say that a warrior needs to be commanding and a woman needs to be passive in our picture of the raw, tribal society is both overestimating the man and underestimating the woman. Not every warrior is a general - most need to be focused on the task at hand, they need to know how they themselves are going to survive this battle, they need to be focused on their own actions at any particular moment - it's not their job to decide or even to be aware of what everyone else is doing at a given moment, they just need to execute their orders. Women can't be passive, either. The matriarch of such a society would probably hold more sway over it than the male chief - after all, she's raised everyone in the village from infancy and everyone comes to her, their mother figure, with their problems. The latter is observable even in the modern world. How many of you have had male school nurses? If you were at school recently enough to have some sort of guidance department, how many of you had a male head of guidance? If not, think of a teacher you might have gone to when you needed support; or even a relative if you couldn't go to your mother - I imagine they'll be female. Women are called upon to be understanding and helpful and motherly - and a mother who keeps to herself and ignores her children gets called neglectful.

The ESTJ/INFP interpretation applies to the '50s, perhaps, but I'm looking for something more primal and natural than that.
 

Waterstiller

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I act at the minimal requirements to pass as masculine in this society. I've studied my own movements and memorized the proper gestures to pass as a typical, normal guy (i.e. firm handshakes, proper posture, projecting voice).

In my mind, however, it's difficult to tell. I am almost completely neutral in regards to masculinity and femininity - if that is even possible. It's difficult to describe. As I told Kidege in another thread, I prefer to just look at the context of someone's mind for what it is; separate from anything external like age, race, gender. My own desire for detachment has separated me even from ascribing to any of these two. Nevertheless, there just might be a very minute, negligible inclination to femininity.
Sounds very much like myself.

I think INTPs are generally very androgynous. Depending on how empathetic a person is, I think they might tip the scale towards feminine. I'm pangender, personally.
 

flow

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Androgynous YES. I've felt this way for a long time, but never felt comfortable saying it out loud. I'd never admit it to my friends, though they probably already know.
 

Jordan~

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Androgynous? Perhaps it's a cultural thing, I feel like INTP is one of the more masculine types. Britain does have a history of the men of note being intellectuals, and the women being firebrands, I suppose.
 

Chimera

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I think I might tip more towards androgynous in my natural state. I've switched between stereotypical feminine/masculine roles too much for too long, so now it feels like I'm almost a blend of the two. (I personally don't pay much attention to the whole gender role thing, but I'm trying to puzzle out what I would be if I tried to label myself.) My understanding of the roles may be a bit muddled though.
One minute I could be masculine. The next could be feminine. It's very hard for me to stick to one or the other. And for some reason the role seems to have a reverse "chameleon" characteristic -- around those more feminine, I unconsciously act a bit more masculine, and vice versa. I'm not quite sure why.
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Jordan~

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I suppose in that respect I agree, I do change between being feminine and masculine quite a lot. I guess I do veer slightly towards the feminine if you just list conditions and tick them off, but people still refused to believe I was gay when I came out (I had about a week of people going "Really? No you're not! Really?"). I think that's because I fall under the Stephen Fry category of gay, rather than the more blatant Graham Norton type (Fry is almost certainly an INTP, Norton an ENFP) - most people don't suspect Fry's gay, either. I'm not sure about it being reverse-chameleonic, it seems to vary entirely from person to person without their gender being the consistent factor. I shall observe myself more - my current theory is that I act more feminine around men I'm attracted to, or perhaps more vulnerable or something.
 

Agent Intellect

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i wouldn't really say that i'm feminine. i'm just me. its all relative, if you ask me, because i probably seem pretty masculine compared to some people, but more feminine compared to others. where does one draw the line? who says "once you cross this point, you enter into masculinity"?
 

Ermine

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I'm a girl, and in my day to day interactions, I often feel and act androgynous. My gender doesn't have much effect on my mannerisms or speech, and all that's really evident is my lack of testosterone, and feminine looks.

As for the archetypal man and woman, I agree with the xSTJ for men, but I don't see how the N fits in for women. While women supposedly are "intuitive", I think a "woman's intuition" is more tied to the feeling trait. The MBTI definition of intuition is more about being open to new things and entertaining lots of ideas at once, being somewhat scatterbrained. Maybe xSFP? I don't think the introversion or extroversion matters for either one.
 

Perseus

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I did a test conversation with a ESXJ woman.

She had a much more clearly defined gender allocation roles that NPs who do not seem a damn either way, unless conditioned otherwise (and they might try to fit in by pretending).

Phoenix XNXP from Neptune

I'm a girl, and in my day to day interactions, I often feel and act androgynous. My gender doesn't have much effect on my mannerisms or speech, and all that's really evident is my lack of testosterone, and feminine looks.

As for the archetypal man and woman, I agree with the xSTJ for men, but I don't see how the N fits in for women. While women supposedly are "intuitive", I think a "woman's intuition" is more tied to the feeling trait. The MBTI definition of intuition is more about being open to new things and entertaining lots of ideas at once, being somewhat scatterbrained. Maybe xSFP? I don't think the introversion or extroversion matters for either one.

The Ferret or Ermine ENFP has the same androgynous aura. It makes them tricky to go out with. I can morph-shift to ENTP. I even morph-shitfted to INFJ Skylark yesterday and that even more gender confusing to others. It was very confusing to me as well. Not so much gender confusing as birdie-like, more than the Eagle who is so high up nobody even picks up on the aura.

Saw a Gallic Eagle a few days ago in a distress mode with a Wolfman boyfriend. He was at a complete loss what to do after whacking her repeatedly did not work. It made no difference whatsoever. I thought they were Bears at first, playing kiss chase.
 
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grey matters

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What I don't understand about gender roles or gender specific behavior, is why, in our modern society, some people feel the need to enforce them (by enforce I mean to enforce in a more social way).
 

Perseus

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What I don't understand about gender roles or gender specific behavior, is why, in our modern society, some people feel the need to enforce them (by enforce I mean to enforce in a more social way).

It is the Horsemen ESFJ who do this. See their profile for the importance of gender allocation with this personality.

ESFJs incorporate many of the traits that are associated with women in our society. However, male ESFJs will usually not appear feminine at all. On the contrary, ESFJs are typically quite conscious about gender roles and will be most comfortable playing a role that suits their gender in our society. Male ESFJs will be quite masculine (albeit sensitive when you get to know them), and female ESFJs will be very feminine.

http://www.personalitypage.com/ESFJ.html

In practice, anybody who does not agree with them is called a C**T.

The trouble is 15% of the population are of this type and the malignant ones are very troublesome, as is a non-malignant one under stress.

I don't like any of them personally.
 

fullerene

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something I understood you and we agee! Sorry... not that I hate all ESFJs or think they're the bane of society, but they certainly do do the kind of social enforcement grey matters is talking about. I've lost a few should-otherwise-be-friends on stuff like that.
 

Waterstiller

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Exaggerated gender roles are cultural tradition as much as anything else, and people are weary of losing traditions. I can't tell you how many times throughout the years the vegetarians in my family were chastised on thanksgiving, usually by older people who are resistant to change. Smear the queer. Whoever is different is oppressed in order to stop them from changing how the majority see and do things.

I want to say this has universal application. The 'enforcers' of gender, race, extroversion, sexual preference, economic class, etcetera have a stake in maintaining their perceptions of said group. One's perceptions are valuable on the level of hir own identity and privileges. Those who vocally oppress people who fall outside of gender norms need to in order to maintain perceptions of themselves, and to do so they must enforce their caricature of the 'other'.

Bringing this back to the specific issue of gender roles, I think it can be argued that both men and women have specific privileges but 'males' are privileged where it counts. I've transitioned from one perceived gender to another and felt some of the weight of this already. I was a feminist prior to experiencing what it was like to be perceived as a woman, but it was still overwhelming to lose male privilege. Going through the male privilege checklist is a different experience now than before.

Both men and women are resistant to changes in gender roles because they affect their identity at such a deep level, but it's the systematic oppression of women that is slowing down change in subsequent generations. Women in the past had to act a certain way to be desired by men because men were in control. In order to survive, women were more dependent on men the further back one goes, which seems to explain the behavior of our mothers and grandmothers differentiating from our own. Most gender roles revolve around men being dominant and women being submissive.

People outside this norm throw a wrench into the patriarchal machine that almost everyone has a stake in. I don't want to give the impression that I think gender is socially constructed though - think socially exaggerated.


So.. anyways.. why is it so weird if the woman penetrates the man?
 

Perseus

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Native Americans did not have the system in Britain and America. Continental Europe is not so defined either. As well as the Horsemen (ESFJ), the Bullies (ESTJ), Wolfman (ENTJ) and Hawks (INTJ) reinforce the system. Even Dragons (INFP) and Religious Eagles with a Broken Wing (INTP) have been known to subscribe. Artisans can forget, but Bears (ISTP) like their physical sex so much that their antics reinforce the system, as does the behaviour of Cats (ISTP) in relation to Eagles, and Dogs, Rodents, follow the rule book. Butterflies probably don't care. Beavers (Teachers) go along with the crowd. Ferrets and Snakes probably don't care. Skylarks probably enjoy the switch. Panthers are opportunist and take which side suits that any particular time. So at least 80% of the population susbscribe to the current gender roles.

ENFJ: "Teacher" = BEAVER 5% Educating [Givers]
Family life and charismatic, but can dam up and block the flow. Busy.

> ENFP: "Journalist" = FERRET 3% Motivating (Champion) [Inspirors]
Enthusiastic hunter and ferreter out of information.

> ENTJ: "Field Marshall" = WOLF 5% Mobilizing [Executives]
Found in packs with one top dog who must be obeyed or defeated in battle.

> ENTP: "Inventor" = SNAKE 2% Devising [Visionaries]
Alien system and cannot hear the words, only feel the vibrations. Can be isolated.

> ESFJ: "Seller" = HORSE 13% Supplying (Provider) [Care Givers]
Wild horses are terrifying, but they can be tamed and ridden.

> ESFP: "Entertainer" = BUTTERFLY 13% Demonstrating (Performer)
Males are often more colourful. Lots of caterpillar style practice and shine briefly.

> ESTJ: "Administrator" = BULL 13% Enforcing [Guardians]
The Ox pulls the plough on behalf of the bosses. The herd can stampede and crush other animals.

> ESTP: "Promoter" = LION or TIGER 13% Persuading [Doers]
Ferocious predator, but not usually malicious. Ruthlessness can cause the same damage though.

> INFJ: "Author" = SKYLARK 1% Guiding (Counselor)
Very complicated singing the tune.

> INFP: "Questor = DRAGON 1.25% (Males 0.6%) Conciliating (Healer)
Sleeps in his barrow and sometimes goes on flights. Unknown.

> INTJ: "Scientist" = HAWK 1% Entailing (part of Arranging)(Mastermind)
Penetrating eyesight with talons.

> INTP: "Architect" = EAGLE 1% Designing
High flier in the clouds with talons.

> ISFJ: "Conservator" = MOUSE 6% Securing (Protector) [Nurturers]
Follows the same old trails (rule book) and can contaminate, but nice and cute if clean.

> ISFP: "Artist" = CAT 5% Synthesizing (part of Composing)
Goes where she enjoys best advantage. Independent and unfaithful if neglected.

> ISTJ: "Trustee" = DOG 6% Certifying [Duty Fillers]
Pack animal tamed by his Master. Varied types.

> ISTP: "Craftsman" = BEAR 5% Instrumenting [Mechanics]{Artisan}
If they are good the Bears will go to the picnic. Big and unstoppable if they want something.
 

Loraella

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Where did these animal names of the types come from? I was absent from here for several weeks, so if it was mentioned somewhere I missed it... [besides, I don't read all threads].

Interesting how you people mention feeling androgynous, because it's similar for me too.
I dislike how much emphasis society puts on a person's gender and how people are "expected" to act and think in a certain way because of their sex.
I could never really relate to women and I'm not really happy with being one, but at least I try to not be bothered by social gender concepts and do my own thing.
 

shadowmouse

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Gender Archetypes are a form of knee-jerk understanding. By choosing to pander to these archetypes by viewing the generality over the individual is unfortunately a persistent flaw in humanity (and myself about 1/2 the time. Working on it.). I tend to view it as a form of intellectual slothfulness that limits what we inputs we are willing to accept. It consistently disappoints me that people allow themselves to be bound by these definitions and that I am consistently willing to accept the status quo. I still haven't decided if its really worth the effort to try and pay attention to the individual since the herd instinct is so strong in many cases. When ever I think that, I try to remember the following quote from the Dune series.

"Ready comprehension is often a knee-jerk response and the most dangerous form of understanding. It blinks an opaque screen over your ability to learn. The judgmental precedents of law function that way, littering your path with dead ends. Be warned. Understand nothing. All comprehension is temporary." - Mentat Fixe (adacto)
 

Perseus

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Where did these animal names of the types come from? I was absent from here for several weeks, so if it was mentioned somewhere I missed it... [besides, I don't read all threads].

Interesting how you people mention feeling androgynous, because it's similar for me too.
I dislike how much emphasis society puts on a person's gender and how people are "expected" to act and think in a certain way because of their sex.
I could never really relate to women and I'm not really happy with being one, but at least I try to not be bothered by social gender concepts and do my own thing.


The animal types came from my creative side of my mind.
 

sagewolf

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I'm a girl, and sometimes I do feel like being what society defines as 'feminine', but the rest of time I just couldn't care less. I do what I want, and apparently what I want is androgynous. So be it: I'm perfectly satisfied with it, and I don't care what other people think of me because of it. There's a boy in my class who isn't particularly masculine, but he does try to fit in with the other boys. He tries really hard and in really bizarre ways, too; I feel kind of sorry for him. (Not too much: it's his fault for subscribing to society's view of the world anyway.) :P
 

Waterstiller

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(Not too much: it's his fault for subscribing to society's view of the world anyway.) :P
I don't think it is; there are some bad consequences for femininity in boys when young. At school and at home. It's often literally beaten in to them to act manly. It conditions them to act a certain way or else.

Thus the awkward attempts.
 

Beat Mango

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Masculine, in no particular order:

Dominant T
Te: planning, direction
Ni: Helps with the above
Fi: depth of feeling rather than an outpouring of it (non dominant)

Feminine:

Dominant F
Ne: spontaneity
Fe: affectionate
Ti: just to stop them being Te

Not sure with the S ones.

I'm just speculating though, it's probably more to do with the dominant combinations. Eg, Ne/Fi would be feminine.
 

Anthile

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Men would have a stronger S than N and vice versa with women. Same with T and F.


Men: S>T>N>F

Women: N>F>S>T
 

Enne

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T>N>S>F.

Guess I'm manly.
 

Liontiger

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I've heard that the archetypal woman is an ESFJ, or any extraverted feeling type for that matter. Age might also be a factor, as P would be encouraged in the young and J encouraged in the mature. S is just valued in American culture in general. For men, it would probably be ESTJ.

(I haven't read the thread yet. Sorry if this has been touched upon already.)
 

truthseeker72

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Like a lot of other INTP's here, I don't consciously try to fit arbitrary gender roles. As a man, I display both feminine and masculine traits. Of the MBTI elements, only T/F seems to be linked to gender, and even there, its only a slight variance (women are 60% F, men are 60% T).
 

Enne

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I've heard that the archetypal woman is an ESFJ, or any extraverted feeling type for that matter. Age might also be a factor, as P would be encouraged in the young and J encouraged in the mature. S is just valued in American culture in general. For men, it would probably be ESTJ.

(I haven't read the thread yet. Sorry if this has been touched upon already.)

I think ESTJ-male is spot on. I think the archaetypcial female was once ISFJ, or INFJ, but that was when women were supposed to be quiet and supportive, and I think that INFJ would still apply in other, maybe far east Asian cultures. I think that the ESFJ archaetype is the supermom / hot life of the party / skinny bitch role that American/western? women are supposed to want to become/be.
 

walfin

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We're all probably less androgynous than we think. Even though most INTPs don't subscribe to gender roles (I believe), there's generally an unmistakable difference between a male INTP and a female INTP that is apparent even in forum posts (though I can't quite put my finger on that difference).

That said, I do believe that the archetypal male by most societies' standards would be STJ, and female SFJ (E/I is probably more dependent on culture). Which is why INTPs tend to think they behave androgynously (because they're comparing themselves to people who believe in gender roles).
 
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