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All smokers are old or stupid?

Aramea

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Dude, we're walking bags of chemicals. Chemical pleasure is real pleasure. Just because it doesn't permanently make you happy doesn't mean anything, it doesn't make it "fake". And if we assume every manufacturer doesn't use their own product in those cases, so what? They don't need to.

*raises a glass to SpaceYeti*

I tend to need something on occasion to stop the madness in my head. Beer and loud music tend to suffice to MAKE IT STOP. I wish I could never say "but that doesn't make sense" like a fucking parrot on my shoulder ever again. Alcohol does the trick albeit temporarily. I can even dance a bit. Smoking couldn't begin to have that effect so I can't imagine why I would huddle outside by an ashcan every hour on the hour in the snow/heat/rain for it while I say "this doens't make sense".

To quote Reznor - "it won't give up it wants me dead; damn this noise inside my head".
 

Melkor

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Not stupid, weak willed, under pressure or socially conditioned perhaps.
I think we should draw the line with things that can drastically deplete your life span though Yeti.
Alcohol is fine in moderation, healthy in some cases, but no smoking is ever healthy to my knowledge, even the first puff of your first cigarette is damaging.
You're entitled to do it of course, if you so wish, but we're also inclined to try convince you to stop for your own good.
 

Meer

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"Cigarettes slowly kill you. If you don't find this comforting on some level, then you will never understand smoking."

...someone said, anonymously, supposedly. It would be stupid to smoke your entire life and think you weren't at risk, or to think you might live forever.

It's also stupid to eat shit constantly and be a fatass.
 

SkyWalker

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Chemical pleasure is not real (even though chemically it is) because it overrides the evolutionary reason for your pleasure. i know you like to play devil's advocate, but check this:
if you lie in a cheap dirty small dark stinky room where you just shot your sick deprived body with heroin, and you are in extacy about it. is that real pleasure??? if i say that is fake, 99% of the people will agree with me. that counts
 

SpaceYeti

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Not stupid, weak willed, under pressure or socially conditioned perhaps.
I think we should draw the line with things that can drastically deplete your life span though Yeti.
Alcohol is fine in moderation, healthy in some cases, but no smoking is ever healthy to my knowledge, even the first puff of your first cigarette is damaging.
You're entitled to do it of course, if you so wish, but we're also inclined to try convince you to stop for your own good.
Sure, but it's a tad naive to think there's a smoker out there who isn't already aware of the danger.
 

Moocow

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Chemical pleasure is not real (even though chemically it is) because it overrides the evolutionary reason for your pleasure. i know you like to play devil's advocate, but check this:
if you lie in a cheap dirty small dark stinky room where you just shot your sick deprived body with heroin, and you are in extacy about it. is that real pleasure??? if i say that is fake, 99% of the people will agree with me. that counts

Not that I'm pro-heroin, but it's the same thing happening chemically as if you did anything else. You can't really tell someone else their pleasure is fake, that doesn't make any sense. If they feel it then they feel it. You're just trying to impose your own interpretation of pleasure upon other people.

The dismissal of drug induced pleasure as illegitimate is just a social or even religious construct based in the belief that pleasure isn't deserved if it isn't preceded by back breaking work.

Also to quote Terence McKenna: "Humans are made to addict." We really are, and if it isn't coffee, cigarrettes, alcohol, weed, or cocaine, then it's TV, video games, violence, skydiving, gambling, eating, sleeping, buying shoes, reading, etc.

They all produce pleasure with the same neural processes. I think it's a lot smarter to carefully pick your addictions rather than let them be chosen for you.
 

Aramea

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Not that I'm pro-heroin, but it's the same thing happening chemically as if you did anything else. You can't really tell someone else their pleasure is fake, that doesn't make any sense. If they feel it then they feel it. You're just trying to impose your own interpretation of pleasure upon other people.

The dismissal of drug induced pleasure as illegitimate is just a social or even religious construct based in the belief that pleasure isn't deserved if it isn't preceded by back breaking work.

Also to quote Terence McKenna: "Humans are made to addict." We really are, and if it isn't coffee, cigarrettes, alcohol, weed, or cocaine, then it's TV, video games, violence, skydiving, gambling, eating, sleeping, buying shoes, reading, etc.

They all produce pleasure with the same neural processes. I think it's a lot smarter to carefully pick your addictions rather than let them be chosen for you.

Very true. You are either pleased or not. Pleasure is the result of manipulation of neurotransmitters in your brain. It never lasts much beyond the original stimulus for many good reasons.

To turn it around, if a drug causes intense pain, would you call it fake pain becuase it doesn't last?
 

Trebuchet

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Chemical pleasure is not real (even though chemically it is) because it overrides the evolutionary reason for your pleasure. i know you like to play devil's advocate, but check this:
if you lie in a cheap dirty small dark stinky room where you just shot your sick deprived body with heroin, and you are in extacy about it. is that real pleasure??? if i say that is fake, 99% of the people will agree with me. that counts

Not devil's advocate, but simple truth. I love the smell of star jasmine, the taste of Spanish olives, and the feel of roller coasters. All of these are chemical reactions in my brain. Pleasure comes from internally-made chemicals like oxytocin, dopamine, and endorphins. Chemical pleasure is all there is, even if your favorite thing in the world is Ti.

Heroin more strongly stimulates the brain than the endorphins to which it is chemically similar. The dose can be adjusted and timed according to the user's desire. Since it is extremely pleasurable, all that together makes it highly addictive. Since it is stronger than an endorphin high, the brain ends up thinking "meh" about the endorphins. But that doesn't mean the pleasure isn't real. It causes damage, yes, but it is real.

It is a pretty aggressive stereotype that all heroin users are trapped in a "cheap dirty small dark stinky room." That is certainly the most advertised endpoint, but is it the most common? I don't have any numbers, but my instinct says there are a lot more heroin users than utterly dissipated wrecks craving one more high before they die.

Finally, consider your example of the person with a ruined body. Assume they are in terrible pain from some illness or injury, and strong opiates relieve them. Do you judge them for wanting some relief, some pleasure? My objection to your scenario isn't that it never happens, but that it is way too limited. The world isn't so narrow.

EDIT: Why does 99% of the people agreeing with you count? I read that something like 65% of Americans don't believe evolution happens. Lots of them deny global warming. But truth isn't a democratic thing. It isn't always clear what the truth is, but a bunch of people saying something false doesn't change it.
 

SpaceYeti

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Chemical pleasure is not real (even though chemically it is) because it overrides the evolutionary reason for your pleasure. i know you like to play devil's advocate, but check this:
if you lie in a cheap dirty small dark stinky room where you just shot your sick deprived body with heroin, and you are in extacy about it. is that real pleasure??? if i say that is fake, 99% of the people will agree with me. that counts
1. What does evolution have to do with it? Anything not conducive to evolution is somehow wrong, bad, or false? That's ludicrous.

2. Yes, that's real pleasure. It's not healthy, but it is pleasure.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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1. What does evolution have to do with it? Anything not conducive to evolution is somehow wrong, bad, or false? That's ludicrous.

2. Yes, that's real pleasure. It's not healthy, but it is pleasure.

It's not about being conducive to evolution. It's about the fact that we evolved to operate in a specific set of ways, and by indulging in pleasure arbitrarily we are pissing all over that. The pursuit of pleasure in a natural environment leads to good results, because the obtainment of pleasure requires work. Artificial pleasures mean that we stop striving, and thus fall into nothingness.

But then, you answered your own question with part 2 anyway.
 

SpaceYeti

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It's not about being conducive to evolution. It's about the fact that we evolved to operate in a specific set of ways, and by indulging in pleasure arbitrarily we are pissing all over that. The pursuit of pleasure in a natural environment leads to good results, because the obtainment of pleasure requires work. Artificial pleasures mean that we stop striving, and thus fall into nothingness.
It's not artificial, firstly, and why does that matter?
 

chrystalline

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I have been a smoker since I was 19 years old. I had smoker parents my whole life as well. I remember being in my early/mid teens that I never wanted to be a smoker...but wah-lah! I have noticed that when times are great in life, it is very easy for me to quit as long as it stays acceptable. I have quit up to 4 years at one time. I started smoking & heavy drinking in the Navy which numbed my social dysfunction and made me pretty happy for awhile. I was able to actually be a socialite. Now that I am older and wiser and my tolerance for alcohol has subsided, I am left with these stupid cancer sticks. I agree that anyone that smokes is stupid, as I am too. I know better, yet I waste my money on something that could potentially harm me in the long run. Yet as humans, we all do stupid things...whether someone may want to admit it or not. I look at it this way...I don't do drugs, I am not out gambling my paycheck, and I am not drinking my life away. There are worse things I could be doing, so in retrospect, I am allowing myself to think it's ok for right now. If someone told me I had to give up smoking or give up my caffeine...I would quit smoking right now! :)
 

scorpiomover

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Smoking costs money and is bad for you. Somehow, this world has produced people that will pay exuberant amounts for cancer. My understanding of this was that people start smoking because they feel socially pressured into it, and that the only adjustment I should make to my impression of a person when I find that they smoke is that they were at some point in their life so concerned about the way they appear to others that they decided to receive cancer in return for their health and wealth.

My J friend recently made the claim that all smokers are either stupid or old. I don't smoke, but I understand that there are reasons for smoking the initial cigarettes that get you hooked for life. The thing is, I would think that anyone who knows what smoking does to them would need to be incredibly unanalytical to except the terms of accepting cigarettes.

A perfect counter example to my presumptions would be a youngish INTP that smokes and has been exposed to enough information beforehand to know what they were signing up for. Any smoker INTPs in here? Wanna tell me what made you smoke?

This doesn't read as well as it did in my head... Oh well, let's just roll with it for now.
I was watching a video on another thread by David Kessler. He said that he was one of the top scientists in the USA who were involved in the anti-smoking science. He clearly stated that he and his colleagues used psychological manipulation of general society to get people to stop smoking and to never start.

He said that they tried to convince people that smoking was bad for them, and that it was expensive. All these methods didn't work at all.

They then tried to stigmatise smokers as being social pariahs. He said that this method worked, and worked very, very successfully.

So, if you go around saying negative comments about smokers, and find it surprising that they smoke as a result, then you have been psychologically manipulated. Congrats. It worked on you to stop you smoking.

Some highly intelligent people have insight into everything but their own situation.
That is my favorite thing I've ever seen you say.
I think it's my quote of the year.
 

snafupants

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I was watching a video on another thread by David Kessler. He said that he was one of the top scientists in the USA who were involved in the anti-smoking science. He clearly stated that he and his colleagues used psychological manipulation of general society to get people to stop smoking and to never start.

He said that they tried to convince people that smoking was bad for them, and that it was expensive. All these methods didn't work at all.

They then tried to stigmatise smokers as being social pariahs. He said that this method worked, and worked very, very successfully.

So, if you go around saying negative comments about smokers, and find it surprising that they smoke as a result, then you have been psychologically manipulated. Congrats. It worked on you to stop you smoking.

I think it's my quote of the year.

A cave dweller far removed from this guy's influence, with a rudimentary understanding of science, might try to dissuade someone from smoking. This would not vindicate the dude's attempts at trying to curb smoking. Also, smoking has been tacitly ackowledged as less than healthy for a long time.
 

scorpiomover

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A cave dweller far removed from this guy's influence, with a rudimentary understanding of science, might try to dissuade someone from smoking. This would not vindicate the dude's attempts at trying to curb smoking. Also, smoking has been tacitly ackowledged as less than healthy for a long time.
As SpaceYeti pointed out, you'd be hard put to find a smoker who doesn't already know that smoking is very unhealthy.

Poor people have the least money, and have the worst health. So if ANYONE would have a reason to quit smoking, due to the cost of smoking and its effects in worsening your health, it would be them.

However, if you look at who is smoking, it tends to be the poorest of people. So, when you add it up, people aren't giving up because of the cost and the ill-health.

The effects of making smoking anti-social, affect your social standing in society. That affects those who have the most social standing the most, and they are the ones who tend to give up smoking the most.

Smoking is not only often started by peer pressure. It's also mostly peer pressure that is causing people to quit, or to never start.

However, it's considered pretty lame, to say that you'd give up smoking because of the way others would treat you, and not because of the cost to your health.

So, people lie about why they don't smoke. They rationalise their reasons, to make their reasons for quitting, more plausible to their peers, again, because of peer pressure.
 

TylerRDA

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I'm playing devil's advocate here, but bear in mind that smoking feels reeeal gooood.
 

Hadoblado

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As SpaceYeti pointed out, you'd be hard put to find a smoker who doesn't already know that smoking is very unhealthy.

Poor people have the least money, and have the worst health. So if ANYONE would have a reason to quit smoking, due to the cost of smoking and its effects in worsening your health, it would be them.

However, if you look at who is smoking, it tends to be the poorest of people. So, when you add it up, people aren't giving up because of the cost and the ill-health.

The effects of making smoking anti-social, affect your social standing in society. That affects those who have the most social standing the most, and they are the ones who tend to give up smoking the most.

Smoking is not only often started by peer pressure. It's also mostly peer pressure that is causing people to quit, or to never start.

However, it's considered pretty lame, to say that you'd give up smoking because of the way others would treat you, and not because of the cost to your health.

So, people lie about why they don't smoke. They rationalise their reasons, to make their reasons for quitting, more plausible to their peers, again, because of peer pressure.

I'm not sure whether you are joking about me being manipulated, I hope you are.
 

Trebuchet

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The anti-smoking program has been pretty effective. But rather than calling it manipulation of individuals, say rather that it is manipulation of cultural norms. In general, more people will be anti-smoking because of it. The numbers back that up.

To say that this was the cause of any one person being anti-smoking is drawing unwarranted conclusions. People can be anti-smoking after seeing someone fall ill from it, or disliking the smell, or being a health enthusiast, or doing a lot of research.
 

Hadoblado

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My sentiment exactly. I would like to think my opinions are formed by considering evidence and whatnot, not some monstrous amalgamation of manipulative propaganda. I'm not saying that all opinions generated by the masses are critical observation, but generalising such an attribute as being easily manipulated by propaganda, on an INTP forum no less, seems ill advised.
 

scorpiomover

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My sentiment exactly. I would like to think my opinions are formed by considering evidence and whatnot, not some monstrous amalgamation of manipulative propaganda. I'm not saying that all opinions generated by the masses are critical observation, but generalising such an attribute as being easily manipulated by propaganda, on an INTP forum no less, seems ill advised.
Fair enough.

But when you suggested that no-one would smoke unless they were manipulated by peer pressure, and on an INTP forum no less, was that not just as ill-advised?
 

Cosmic

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Why did I start smoking two years ago and continue to do so this day? Because I'm too smart to get addicted. And shit, I'm young; if this is going to come back to haunt me (yeah right), it'll be in an unforeseeable distant future more akin to a parallel universe or something.
 

Eleven

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1.) Some people here rephrased the old superstition that 'small amounts of alcohol can be healthy'. That's just wrong. Wine for example DOES contain some healthy tannins and stuff, but so does a common glass of grape juice. In fact grape juice contains MORE healthy things. The alcohol itself damages brain cells and other cells. End of the story. Nothing more. In fact the positive effect of the healthy things in wine is equalized by the unhealthy effects of alcohol. There ARE studies that suggest a moderate amount of wine every day leads to a longer life, but that's a fallacious correlation. People who tend to drink small amounts of wine every day are people with more income. Wine is a status symbol. It's like pointing out that people who buy expensive clothes live longer, thus you should wear expensive clothes to live longer.

2.) Addiction alters the way people think. Experiments showed that people with an official addiction problem lack the ability to fully calculate alternative behaviour into their decisions. That's doesn't only apply to decisions related to their addiction, but also to financial decisions or whatever else they have to decide. They know about (for example) the negative sides of smoking, but their brain won't use this knowledge in subconscious processes. Most decisions, especially if they are about complicated things with many variables, are mainly subcounscious. And the funny part is, people don't notice that they are robbed of important parts of their mental properties and freedom to decide. Very perfidous.

3.) The first post suggested a positive correlation between "being smart" and "being an INTP". I'd doubt that. The MBTI test DOES claim more measuring abilities than it really has, but measuring intelligence luckily isn't part of those.

4.) My subjective impression of smokers is this: Smokers tend to be more irresponsible. Concerning others and themselfs. They throw their cigarettes on the streets even if there is an public ashtray right next to them. They smoke in front of others without thinking about them, while most of them WOULD try not to (for example) fart were others might be affected by it. They also lack a sense of "what's first". For example they'd start smoking in public places and think "if somebody doesn't like it, he can leave this place instead of forcing me to stop" instead of thinking "i'm the one that forces things to people without asking". Even if it's raining cats and dogs, people are obviously ill and there's just one bus shelter. Not all smokers are like that, of course (I know some who'd even change to the other side of the street if kids are near), but WAY TOO MANY. The saddest examples for the irresponsibility of smokers are mothers or pregnant women who force their kids to smoke secondhand. That should be punishable.
It's like DUI with your kids on the backseat. All that can be blamed on the the mechanism in 2.)

5.) If smokers are "cool", smoking is an evolutionary advantage. Maybe they die young, but their irresponsibility, their lack of truely considering alternative behaviours (in some cases that means: contraception) and the possible social prestige might lead to a very "successful" offspring ratio. And in some of our societies it's not even necessary that they provide it with ressources in order to make it survive. There are some species of rodents (with giant testicles, by the way) of which the "fit" males die right after their reproduction season. From exhaustion. Still rodents are well known for their reproduction success. It's not about the time you have but about how you use it.

6.) Hi, I'm Eleven :)
 

Hadoblado

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Welcome to the forum Eleven.

@2 - Yes addiction is an ugly thing. I have tried to focus on the period of time before you are addicted, what makes someone behave in a way that will get them addicted before they are addicted?

@3 - I can't remember my first post, but it is true I believe it probable that INTPs are more intelligent on average than the general population. I don't have any evidence, I'm not entirely certain, and I understand that the belief is not entirely justified. It just seems intuitive to assume this, and all the evidence I have read or experienced points that way. We are simply hard wired to use our brains more than average, and therefore we are probably in better practice. We could start a thread if you would like to pursue this?

@Scorpiomover.
When I started this topic, I was actively looking for a counterexample that would allow for options other than rubbish decision making skills, I was seeing if the statement "all smokers are old or stupid" was a reasonable simplification as I could not at the time think of anything that disproved it. Shoeless had an excellent point which allows someone who is intelligent and informed to take up an otherwise pointless habit for reasons other than peer pressure and conformity, this reason being sharing people's spin in recreational drug use.

I was testing a presumption adversarially , you were making an unjustified assumption. I feel the need to soften these words with smileys :):):) for fear of sounding harsh.
 

Trebuchet

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1.) Some people here rephrased the old superstition that 'small amounts of alcohol can be healthy'. That's just wrong. Wine for example DOES contain some healthy tannins and stuff, but so does a common glass of grape juice. In fact grape juice contains MORE healthy things. The alcohol itself damages brain cells and other cells. End of the story. Nothing more. In fact the positive effect of the healthy things in wine is equalized by the unhealthy effects of alcohol. There ARE studies that suggest a moderate amount of wine every day leads to a longer life, but that's a fallacious correlation. People who tend to drink small amounts of wine every day are people with more income. Wine is a status symbol. It's like pointing out that people who buy expensive clothes live longer, thus you should wear expensive clothes to live longer.

1) You are correct that a correlation is not a causation. However, the study I read controlled for sociodemographic and social-behavioral factors, plus a huge list of other things, like former drinking problems, life stress, support network, health problems, and so on. The light to moderate drinkers had reduced mortality compared to both abstainers and heavy drinkers, and it was statistically significant, and over 40%. (For the record, I'm really close to being an abstainer. I doubt I even have 10 drinks a year, while they define light to moderate as about 1 per day. Nor am I recommending that people drink. I just thought the study was fascinating.)

No one denies that alcohol has its negative effects, and indeed the study lists them conscientiously. But this was an impressively careful study and the results were consistent with other similar studies. It may be flawed, and perhaps someone will uncover the flaws. It has been criticized, largely for the possibility that it may encourage drinking, and that is of course a risk. But just because you don't like the results doesn't mean you dismiss them. You replicate the study, or analyze their methods, and see if new data produces new results.

Why is there such a correlation? Well, we don't know yet. Since it wasn't limited to red wine, it isn't just the tannins.

Certainly you are right about alcohol and brain cells, especially in people under 25 while the brain is still developing. It's a bad idea to drink then.

I have no idea what any of this has to do with smoking. No one has produced a study, to my knowledge, that shows smoking being correlated with reduced mortality.

2) I agree with the rest of your points, especially number 4. The smoking behaviors you describe drive me nuts, and they seem to be largely unconscious.
 

Stigmata

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People are well of aware of dangers of smoking so why do they choose to do so? I have no idea.

Because it induces a calming feeling. Gratification typically takes precedence over stability(preservation of the self) in relation to most people. Statistically speaking, there's plenty of things that are equally as detrimental to our well-being, if not worse, that are just more socially accepted and less focused upon in the mainstream media than smoking. For example, we know about the dangers of clinical obesity whether it be a direct result of or due to increased risks related to, yet we see advertisements all the time promoting it. Same thing for sex(unprotected), yet it's so prevalent in the advertising markets and tagged with a thinly veiled warning to use protection. Alcohol falls into this category as well, and I won't even get into the added risks through operating a motor vehicle, doing any sort of sport or strenuous exercise, or just breathing the air in any major city.

Basically, we're all going to die(Hell, you're doing very slowly as we speak), so pick your poison.
 

scorpiomover

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@Scorpiomover.
When I started this topic, I was actively looking for a counterexample that would allow for options other than rubbish decision making skills, I was seeing if the statement "all smokers are old or stupid" was a reasonable simplification as I could not at the time think of anything that disproved it. Shoeless had an excellent point which allows someone who is intelligent and informed to take up an otherwise pointless habit for reasons other than peer pressure and conformity, this reason being sharing people's spin in recreational drug use.
I started smoking mainly because I was going through a very hard time, emotionally speaking, and smoking was my security blanket, so to speak. When things get too hard for me, I have a cigarette, and feel much better.

I was testing a presumption adversarially , you were making an unjustified assumption. I feel the need to soften these words with smileys for fear of sounding harsh.
I am very sensitive to criticism, especially when it is negative criticism about who I am, such as "smokers are...(negative)".

These sorts of messages seem to be ubiquitous in the UK, particularly about smokers, with the opposite about non-smokers. It would be reasonable to state that smokers are described the way Westerners used to say that those who don't believe in Jesus, are 100% evil, and are going to Hell for an eternity, for their own fault, for not believing in Jesus. So perhaps you can understand it when I highly object to anyone even taking the position of "all smokers are old or stupid", as to me, it's no different than saying "You're going to Hell for not believing in Jesus".

The results of these messages, make me feel more anxious, and so make me smoke more, which also makes me wonder why, if anyone actually wanted me to quit, they would say these things in the first place. I doubt they could be that unobservant, to not realise that negative criticism of smokers is liable to cause the opposite effect. It leaves me with the possibility that either they are stupid, or they WANT me to smoke, and to criticise me at the same time, and never cease, as some kind of perverse pleasure in torturing others endlessly.
 

Hadoblado

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I do not mean to make this personal. I don't even mean to generalise the stupidity to outside the initial decision to partake in smoking in the first place. When you refer to a safety blanket and whatnot, these are all things that smoking became for you after you had already begun, and therefore you cannot be blamed for deciding to smoke now, as there is in fact a benefit.

My peeve (or whatever) is this: there is a feeling when you talk to smokers that they are the salt of the earth, they don't care what you think and if you don't like then it's your problem. Ever been that guy at the party who coughs their lungs up after one bong? That's what it feels like. When you refuse a smoke they act like you're naive, like you saying no is the action of someone who does not understand the value of smoking. Of course then they might pay lip service to the 'I wish I didn't start' gods, but there is always some sort of social disadvantage. I come from a family of smokers, I used to think smoking was something that all adults took upon coming of age. I am the only one in my family (and the majority of my extended family, which is huge) who does not smoke tobacco. When I try and think of a reason why someone would take up smoking, I can come up with the following:

a) - they desire to fit in.
b) - they started before they knew the implications.
c) - they were passively addicted either though some other habit, or through accidental exposure.
d) - they are stupid.

I think if someone desire to fit in, then that's okay to smoke, but don't pretend it's because you didn't desire to fit in. All these anti-conformists who begin smoking because their friends do it need to take a look in the mirror.
Likewise, if someone didn't know the implications of smoking, or was passively addicted, then these are non-stupid reasons I'll accept.

The stupid smokers, if such a categorisation can be made, are the one's who made the deliberate decision to begin smoking knowing the consequences full well and who still claim to not care what people think, or at least to have not cared at the time they were addicted.

Do you fit into any of these categories? if not, could you help me improve my model?

INTP's are a perfect sample because they generally don't care too much what people think (or at least have little desire to conform), and generally think through their actions more than the average.
 

scorpiomover

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I do not mean to make this personal. I don't even mean to generalise the stupidity to outside the initial decision to partake in smoking in the first place. When you refer to a safety blanket and whatnot, these are all things that smoking became for you after you had already begun, and therefore you cannot be blamed for deciding to smoke now, as there is in fact a benefit.
Now we are getting somewhere.

I already felt on a regular basis, in such emotional pain, that I would have to keep punching myself, in the leg and in the head, until my leg or head hurt so bad, that they hurt more than the emotional pain I was feeling, on a regular basis. I already saw that smokers showed a sense of itchiness before they had a cigarette, and a sense of calm and relaxation when they had a cigarette. I had an extreme itchiness, due to my emotional state. I decided to see if it could reduce my state of emotional pain. It did. The health costs were heavy. But the emotional turmoil was ripping my physical and emotional state apart. It was really not much different than choosing to give someone chemo, which is a heavy poison, to cure cancer, except that it was for a chronic condition, that would not go away like cancer would. It was still a rational choice, even before I started.

My peeve (or whatever) is this: there is a feeling when you talk to smokers that they are the salt of the earth, they don't care what you think and if you don't like then it's your problem.
Never heard anyone say that about rich, wealthy, snobby, smokers.

Are you sure that you are not thinking of poor working-class people, who already think of themselves as 'the salt of the Earth'? It's true that poor working-class people didn't care what others think of them drinking and smoking. Their lives were pretty awful anyway. Smoking and drinking was just a way of getting through the day, without getting so fed up with such a difficult life, that you went postal. The health risks were bad. But the horror of their lives was far worse.

As Jarvis Cocker sang in "Common People":
You'll never live like common people
You'll never do what common people do
You'll never fail like common people
You'll never watch your life slide out of view,

and dance and drink and screw
Because there's nothing else to do.
http://www.elyrics.net/read/p/pulp-lyrics/common-people-lyrics.html

Ever been that guy at the party who coughs their lungs up after one bong? That's what it feels like.
Been that guy, even as a 20-a-day smoker. Everyone said "We were all like that in the beginning. Just have another go." But when I politely said "No, thanks. I'll skip it.", and stuck to my guns, people moved on, and later on, even admitted that they admired me for it.

When you refuse a smoke they act like you're naive, like you saying no is the action of someone who does not understand the value of smoking. Of course then they might pay lip service to the 'I wish I didn't start' gods, but there is always some sort of social disadvantage. I come from a family of smokers, I used to think smoking was something that all adults took upon coming of age. I am the only one in my family (and the majority of my extended family, which is huge) who does not smoke tobacco.
You have an entirely different problem, one that I can relate to, because my family had a similar reaction when I went through a phase of being more religious than they were. They had the same reaction.

They were struggling through life. They knew that smoking was bad for them. But they felt they needed it, and really couldn't see any other way of dealing with their anxieties.

In their eyes, you were just like them, one of the family. But you didn't need to smoke. You didn't suffer with their anxieties. You didn't even seem to struggle with it. So all they could see, was that you were just like them, but somehow, you could do what they could not.

It left them feeling like they were in some way disabled, inadequate human beings. They NEEDED to see that you smoked, or that you only didn't smoke because of some problem you had, that they didn't, or it would have brought them into feelings of inferiority, which would have raised their levels of anxiety to a level that even smoking could not help them with, and could have brought them to feel they were unable to function at all.

When I try and think of a reason why someone would take up smoking, I can come up with the following:

a) - they desire to fit in.
b) - they started before they knew the implications.
c) - they were passively addicted either though some other habit, or through accidental exposure.
d) - they are stupid.
Peer pressure is often under-played, because most humans feel the need to belong. Speaking from experience, feeling like you don't fit anywhere can be absolutely horrible. It really wrecks your self-esteem.

We humans are built with a survival instinct and a reproductive urge. In the modern day, this translates into working at a job for money with which to live, and a desire to have sex, form a relationship, and have a family. But we learn mostly from imitation of others. So we are mostly unable to see how any of our needs can be fulfilled, except by looking at what others do.

So, if you look around, and see others that mostly seem like you, and they have a job, money, a place of their own, friends, a social life, and a girlfriend, then you want to be like them, because by being like them, you are adopting the same lifestyle patterns that got them all those things, and so, you are likely to have all those things as well.

If smoking is a part of that, then smoking is a part of that. If they all smoke, then it seems to be an integral part of their lifestyle patten, and without it, there is a very good chance that you simply will not be able to achieve the foundations that give them, and you, all the things that you so desperately need.

The stupid smokers, if such a categorisation can be made, are the one's who made the deliberate decision to begin smoking knowing the consequences full well and who still claim to not care what people think, or at least to have not cared at the time they were addicted.

Do you fit into any of these categories? if not, could you help me improve my model?

INTP's are a perfect sample because they generally don't care too much what people think (or at least have little desire to conform), and generally think through their actions more than the average.
As I wrote, I fall almost perfectly into your 'stupid smoker' category. I have rarely been called stupid, only by people who assumed that I did things without thinking. When I did explain my reasons to them, which took 2 hours or more, suddenly realised that I had very, very good reasons for what I did, and then they realised that I wasn't being stupid at all.

The question that you need to ask, is why any peer groups started smoking in the first place?

Smoking hurts everyone's lungs the first few times. It also has a noxious smell to non-smokers. Everyone begins life as a non-smoker. So everyone begins life by finding smoking smelly and unpleasant.

Sure, someone had to try it first, just to see what it was like. But still, at that point, everyone else would have not liked it, because of the smell, and he would have not liked it, because it would have hurt.

So there had to be a big pay-off, one that was sufficient to make it worthwhile for a whole group to begin smoking.

Also, as you get older, the smoke accumulates in your lungs. You cannot run as fast. Your breathing starts to hurt. You find that you feel pain in your lungs very often. Of course, those who have started, are addicted, and those who have not started, have not experienced this. But old people almost always tell you all about their every complaint, and not everyone smokes. So it would have quickly become apparent, that continued smoking would have caused you much difficulty. So centuries before doctors found out about the harm of smoking, smoking should have died off.

So that pay-off, has to be something, that is fulfilling a need, a need that is not fulfilled by any other source.

There is another reason. I once watched Oliver James, a noted British psychologist, say on British TV, that nicotine is the strongest anti-depressant around.

We also know that throughout the last 1,000 years of history, that people in Western countries had the most appalling life. In the Middle Ages, people's life expectancy was somewhere in the late 30s. In France, just before the French Revolution, life expectancy was somewhere in the late 20s. However, it was much, much higher, decades higher, thousands of years before that, in the Stone Age,

Over the centuries, life had become much, much harder, and much, much more stressful. Pre-Revolutionary Paris was full of noxious fumes. The dye factories of pre-Revolutionary France produced the worst by far. A scientist tried to measure the air pollution at the time. He sent an assistant of his, who wasn't used to the pollution, into the worst areas, where the dye factories were. The guy was only in there for 15 minutes. But he barely made it out alive. He was in serious condition. Any longer, and he could have been dead. Smoking was not going to make much more of a difference.

But smoking did have one strong effect: the anti-depressive effect of nicotine, made people feel a whole lot better about their pain, both physical and emotional.

So it became very popular in areas where there were a lot of working-class people, especially people who were exposed to noxious fumes for much of the day, and who needed something to relax them, and who wouldn't really feel that much worse from smoking, because their lungs were damaged already from the noxious fumes. Rich people didn't want polluting factories near them. But the factories were making goods to sell, and transport was by horse, and very slow, compared to today. So the factories had to be close to the cities. So they tended to be put in cities, but where rich people didn't live. So they tended to be put in poor areas.

Among rich areas, people still would smoke. But there was not much stress in their life. So it was used as a sign of wealth. In rich areas, it didn't matter if you did smoke. It mattered that you were wealthy enough to always have cigarettes on hand, and that you could afford a gold cigarette case. When rich people would go out, they would take out their gold or silver cigarette case, take one, and then offer others, as if to show they were being hospitable, when what they were really doing, was showing off. Then, they would take one or two drags from their cigarette, and then stub it out, or they would take a drag, leave it in the ashtray, and then leave it there, while they chatted. They never chain-smoked, or smoked it right to the butt, as poor people did. When rich people would run out of cigarettes in the middle of the night, they would never go hunting for butts, like real nicotine-addicts do, which I've seen people do, on plenty of occasions. They would just do something else.

This was all because rich people were never nicotine-addicts. It was an affectation, to have an excuse to show off their wealth, much like most of what rich people did.

That is why the anti-social messages about smoking worked so well. The rich quit, because they were never addicted. They only smoked, because it was a tool for ostentation. Once smoking became anti-social, having 20 cigarettes on hand, in a gold cigarette case, just meant that you were being 20 times as anti-social, and gilding your anti-socialness to boot. So you weren't improving your social status anymore, by smoking. You were decreasing your social status, by having cigarettes in your house.

So, it wasn't enough for rich people to quit. They had to be seen to be of higher social status, which meant that they had nothing to do with smoking whatsoever. They had to become anti-smokers, criticising smokers, and putting themselves on a pedestal, for being oh-so-good and oh-so-clever, for stopping smoking.

Anti-smoking just replaced smoking as a tool of social climbing and ostentation.

In its place, came things like expensive gyms, personal trainers, organic food, macrobiotic diets, bottled water, pro-biotic yoghurts, and anything else that claimed that you were more successful than other people, because you were living a healthier life.

Working-class areas still have the same correlations. Those areas in which people were still heavily working-class, and felt the same oppression and toughness in their lives that they'd always felt, still were heavy smokers.

Those areas which used to be working-class, but had now converted to middle-class, now had a class of people who had far less stress, and had serious aspirations to be rich, and so emulated them, becoming ardent anti-smokers.

Those who used to find that for them, it was socially unacceptable to smoke, and who had low socioeconomic status, like women, and who now found that they were given greater socioeconomic status, started using cigarettes for the same reasons that the rich used to, only they used it to show off how wealthy they had recently become. So suddenly, as women started getting a lot better jobs and earning a lot more money in the 80s, smoking in women suddenly rose. At the time, scientists were very surprised. But psychologically, the reason was obvious. It was a very easy way for women to say "I used to be poor, and could afford very few cigarettes. Now I have a lot more money, and can hand them out like water. Observe my greater status in society, and acknowledge it."

In other countries, a similar phenomenon occured. Countries that were experiencing a swift economic rise, from extreme poverty into previous Western levels of wealth, started seeing a rise in smoking, again amongst those who were moving up the socioeconomic ladder, except that in those countries, it was men who were moving up, or men and women, and smoking rose with their socioeconomic status.

The vast majority were never addicts. An addict is someone who, when they run out, can barely stand to be without for a few hours, before having to go out and do whatever it takes to get their fix, and until they do, nothing is going to stand in their way. Anyone who is a proper addict, could never board a non-smoking plane, without going to the loo and having a crafty fag. Today, they get caught. You show me someone who never boards a plane, never gets a job that requires them to not smoke for several hours, cannot go anywhere where they are unable to smoke for a few hours, and today, that will seriously curtail their life, and you are looking at an addict. The rest were just doing it to show they were better than everyone else, or just to fit in, and never got addicted, and find quitting not that much of a struggle.
 

Melkor

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Sure, but it's a tad naive to think there's a smoker out there who isn't already aware of the danger.

Do you think that somehow negates the need to convince them to give up?
Nah, it makes it even more alarming that they perservere...
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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Rez.

After reading a little a bit about the antidepressant properties of nicotine I decided to give it a go. I smoked for about three days, but find the extra maintenance (dependency) frustrating. I did not so much quit as stopped putting in the effort. I think perhaps I am not easily addicted given my frail constitution, if smokers have to put in nearly as much effort as I have to become addicted then I have no idea why there are so many of them.

@scorpiomover
Your sociological explanation is interesting, I think more on an individual level, but the perspective is appreciated.
 

snafupants

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After a round of golf on Monday with a friend of yesteryear, I had this discussion, incidentally in a Steak 'n Shake. Smoking actually doesn't solely take; there is some emotional high and cerebral boost associated with ripping a drag. There should be a distinction between breathing in cigarette smoke and unwittingly scooping in exhaust fumes; the latter provides a rather dubious high, if any, while the former has a salubrious effect on mood and cognition, at least initially and in moderation.
 

Meer

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People are not always rational.

I smoked for about three days

You're doing it wrong. When I first started, I had about one a week. It slowly evolved into a daily ritual over the course of a few years. Now I'm more addicted to the ritual than anything else. I can go all day without a smoke, but I need one before I go to bed.
 

SpaceYeti

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Do you think that somehow negates the need to convince them to give up?
Nah, it makes it even more alarming that they perservere...
What can we do to convince them to give up when they're already aware they shouldn't be doing it? Who are we to them such that our values are better than theirs and they should do what we want them to do instead of what they want to do?

This is just an example of my point, but I'm in the Army. Every week, before we get off for the weekend, we have a safety briefing. Every weekend, we're told not to drink and drive, not to beat our spouses, not to do illegal drugs, and not to do other stupid things that everyone is already aware of as being stupid.

Those things still get done. People still drink and drive, they still get in fist fights with their spouse, they still do illegal drugs, etc. They know not to, they're told not to, yet they still do it. If someone knows not to do something, and they want to do it anyway, you're just the asshole trying to tell them what to do when you tell them not to.

I haven't really looked into the statistics to see if these incidents have gone up or down or neither, but I have never met a smoker who I convinced to stop smoking.

... Except my wife. She used to smoke, and she stopped because I told her to. And I was dating a chick who asked me to tell her to stop smoking... which shows she wanted to in the first place. I won't say it's totally ineffective, but if someone doesn't care; they don't care, and telling them what they already know won't see any results.
 

pjoa09

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As SpaceYeti pointed out, you'd be hard put to find a smoker who doesn't already know that smoking is very unhealthy.

Poor people have the least money, and have the worst health. So if ANYONE would have a reason to quit smoking, due to the cost of smoking and its effects in worsening your health, it would be them.

However, if you look at who is smoking, it tends to be the poorest of people. So, when you add it up, people aren't giving up because of the cost and the ill-health.

The effects of making smoking anti-social, affect your social standing in society. That affects those who have the most social standing the most, and they are the ones who tend to give up smoking the most.

Smoking is not only often started by peer pressure. It's also mostly peer pressure that is causing people to quit, or to never start.

However, it's considered pretty lame, to say that you'd give up smoking because of the way others would treat you, and not because of the cost to your health.

So, people lie about why they don't smoke. They rationalise their reasons, to make their reasons for quitting, more plausible to their peers, again, because of peer pressure.

+1
 

ObliviousGenius

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I completely agree about the idea of social standing and smoking. I used to go to school in downtown Chicago and on my way to the school from the train station I'd see several groups of people on every corner smoking. The thing is, they were always waiters/waitresses, beggers, and other people of low salary. I don't see many speed-walking, briefcase-carrying businessmen smoking very often.

I think this is because the poor seem to have a need for social standing where it would otherwise be difficult to obtain. For the poor, the biggest reason to start smoking and continue smoking IS social standing.

Younger people (particularly teens to young adults), are more likely to start because of peer pressure.

Edit: I do not smoke cigarettes myself because of the addiction and, well, cancer. I have no problem lighting up a joint however.
 

Roboman

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You never know when you gonna go. Maybe today, maybe tomorrow.

Non-smokers use arguments like "If you quit you will live longer"
Why delay the inevitable? Sitting in a nursing home having your ass wiped by strangers, feeling like a burden to everyone around you, loosing all dignity, looking into the eyes of your family feeling pitiful and just begging for the final moment.
Now tell me, what kind of life is that?

Death is el naturel. A part of life and being alive. For every life there must be a death.

As long as it only hurts yourself, you should do as you please.

(I don't smoke. I believe in free will)
 

RedN

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I used to smoke a pack a day. That was college. Now I dont touch any, in fact I cant even be next to a smoker, my medication can cause me to clot in my chest due to smoke so i can die from it literally???
 

Antediluvian

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Smoking seems to have a short-term cognitive benefit, but the detriments may present themselves insidiously (and, thus, imperceptibly until it's too late). I read a medical article years ago that suggested the long-term effects of smoking were quite potent, mainly due to restricted blood flow caused by plaque buildup. I'm not really well-versed in this subject, though.
 

NinjaSurfer

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a very logical justification of smoking cigarettes-- even though I only smoked for a couple months and chose to quit due to the pleasure not really being there anymore;

Assumptions:
1) all humans will die eventually
2) I am a human

value of my last 10-20 years of life = negligible
value of my tomorrow, and near future is greater than value of further out future (perception)
therefore the pleasure I gain from smoking a cigarette now (current self) outweighs the perceived negative consequences (to future self)
thus logically, smoking makes sense if we are more egotistical and protective of our current versus future selves;

however, if we 'care' about our future selves than we can logically convince ourselves that smoking is illogical; so, if we devalue the quality of life of our future selves (hey, our future selves can go fuck themselves for all we care roite?) then this is the best I can do to argue against the proposition that all smokers are either Old or Stupid;

in fact, one could very intelligently reason that smoking is okay because all the harm is done to a future self and not the current self.
 

Anna Moss

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They did a study on smoking and type to see which types smoked and how much. INTPs had the highest percentage of smokers of all types; we even beat out the ESTPs. And we beat them hard: no less than 24 out of the 32 INTPs who participated in the study were smokers. (The study subjects were all college students, fyi.)
 

NinjaSurfer

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They did a study on smoking and type to see which types smoked and how much. INTPs had the highest percentage of smokers of all types; we even beat out the ESTPs. And we beat them hard: no less than 24 out of the 32 INTPs who participated in the study were smokers. (The study subjects were all college students, fyi.)

does this take into account the following? (just proposing, not suggesting)

1) a higher percentage of college students are INTP's

and

2) a higher percentage of INTP's will participate in such studies in the first place?

& these two combined could produce the skewed results?

but I am not surprised, as solitary confinement can cause one to develop compulsive addictions just to cure boredom-- or possibly I am just relating my own personal experience and trying to make it a generalization
 

Anna Moss

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Both of those factors could indeed change the total number of INTPs in the study, but I don't think it would have an effect on the number of smokers vs. nonsmokers in said sample. I.e., if they had 100 INTPs instead of 32 INTPs, the percentage of smokers would probably be the same (66ish%) for each population even with the enlarged sample size. There were nonsmoking INTPs represented in the sample too, remember.
 

Hadoblado

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You never know when you gonna go. Maybe today, maybe tomorrow.

Non-smokers use arguments like "If you quit you will live longer"
Why delay the inevitable? Sitting in a nursing home having your ass wiped by strangers, feeling like a burden to everyone around you, loosing all dignity, looking into the eyes of your family feeling pitiful and just begging for the final moment.
Now tell me, what kind of life is that?

This would be a decent argument for behaving recklessly with the possibility of a rapid decline in health. Smoking causes health issues that are a matter of degree. Dying of cancer will give you that slow and undignified death you seek to avoid by smoking, and you will have more healthy years if you do not smoke.
 

NinjaSurfer

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Beware Christians!

This just in: DEATH by Lung Cancer via smoking cigarettes considered SUICIDE by God!

Smoking, and the resulting lung cancer from smoking, and consequential death, is a foreseeable event. Therefore, this is considered an act of suicide. You will thus, not go to heaven. The reason you do not know about this is because Phillip Morris lobbied to keep this information out of the bible. The same way as big pharma controls the DSM... the big corporations also control what goes in, and more importantly, what stays OUT OF the bible.

Sorry to have to break this news to you.

Wait, no I'm not. Ha ha. you're all going to hell.
 

catatonic

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Beware Christians!

This just in: DEATH by Lung Cancer via smoking cigarettes considered SUICIDE by God!

Smoking, and the resulting lung cancer from smoking, and consequential death, is a foreseeable event. Therefore, this is considered an act of suicide. You will thus, not go to heaven. The reason you do not know about this is because Phillip Morris lobbied to keep this information out of the bible. The same way as big pharma controls the DSM... the big corporations also control what goes in, and more importantly, what stays OUT OF the bible.

Sorry to have to break this news to you.

Wait, no I'm not. Ha ha. you're all going to hell.

but when they made the bible, cigarettes has not been invented yet, no?
 

Manic

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Being smart or stupid has little to do with smoking any more than succumbing to a strong sexual attraction for someone you know is wrong for you is stupid—inadvisable, unequivocally, but not stupid. Smoking is, of course, objectively stupid, and even before it was scientifically proven to be harmful everyone who smoked knew that already (I think anyone who denies that, even 50 years ago, is being disingenuous).

Nicotine is one of the most addictive drugs around so it is extremely difficult to stop once you’ve started (harder than heroin, they say). But it's worse than that because there is also a strong psychological element to it; even once you are over the physical addiction it is very difficult to stay a quitter. I started when I was very young when a friend stole some cigarettes from his mother’s purse (I hung around with a bad crowd, did many things I shouldn't have done young). As with anything else, the younger you start the more ingrained the behavior and hence the harder it is to change that behavior. Moreover, certain personality types, such as those with anxiety or mood disorders, will find it much hard than others to quit because smoking fills an even deeper need. I suspect more INTPs than the general population fit into that category, even though they tend to be more intelligent than most people. I smoked off and on, mostly on, for the better part of 25 years. Finally quit for good 15 years ago with help from modern medical science.
 

shortbuss

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I am addicted to cigarettes, but it had nothing to do with peer pressure. I have major depressive disorder, and I felt, and continue to often feel so shitty that I don't care what I do to myself, and I even admit that I once told myself that I wanted to smoke cigarettes so that I could just die sooner.

I regret my careless decision. I find myself asking friends who smoke why they began smoking when they knew what the consequences were too, and generally they haven't analyzed their decisions the way I have, and so the consensus is basically a unanimous 'i dunno.'

I hope you won't continue to judge smokers so harshly. Everybody hates smokers these days, and we're just people who made a mistake. Personally whenever I smoke I try to find a place where my second hand smoke won't hit anyone, and I'm very conscious of the direction of the wind when I do this. I know I'm not the only smoker to take these things into consideration. I hope you can see that people are only human, and that there are absolutely other reasons besides age or stupidity that can contribute to the decision to start smoking. For me it is that I make careless, stupid decisions because I have a mental disorder that impedes on my ability to make good decisions sometimes.

Besides, isn't our imminent suffering from cancer enough punishment?

It's really a shame that smoking cigarettes is such an awful thing to do to your body, because there is something so comforting about sitting in nature, or driving your car, while smoking a cigarette and listening to music that fits your mood. I feel so at peace. Then again, there is nothing shittier than having just bought a pack of cigarettes, and then going out drinking only to get so drunk that you light up an entire carton in one night before you even realize it...
 

kantor1003

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Shortbuss - try e-cigarettes. It did the trick for me and several of my friends.

I liked smoking and didn't want to quit. Being in my early 20s I hadn't experienced any health related issues to speak of either. However, I was fascinated by e-cigarettes upon seeing someone using it, so I ordered for myself and for my father. I quit the moment I got the kit, and my father made the transition over a period of a few days.
The important part is getting something of decent quality as there are plenty of shitty e-cig products out there.
 

Manic

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Shortbuss, e-cigarettes probably help but they weren't around when I quit. Wellbutrin did the trick for me. Being a depressive, you may already know that it's an anti-depressant. I began losing my desire to smoke within a couple of weeks and within a month lost all desire. There may be other even better drugs around now. I continue to take Wellbutrin for depression and anxiety. I quit about 15 years ago, and apart from occasional pangs of nostalgia, have never had a desire to smoke again, even during long periods of depression. If I can quit, anyone can.
 
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