Against 'intpforum.com'

[Lyra]

Don't misunderstand me, please: I love this forum.

And I don't meant to criticise it or its members.

I simply feel that continuing to base the community and its categories of discussion upon one, fixed theoretical model compromises our intellectual flexibility. Isn't that so-very un-INTP?

It's often said here that the MBTI is just a starting point, or a useful tool. But, nevertheless, a community with such a fixed and immutable conceptual foundation-- one which remains constant even if it is challenged or superseded in intellectual argument-- will be inhibited by it. Its thought will construct and combine in ways determined by the limits of that foundation, and its entire structure will be limited by that.

I must pay credit where credit is due: the 'INTP' label, and the methodology of which it is a part, allowed this place to be what it is, and allowed it to attract those that it did. I'm as thankful for that as others here. But if we really are the type of person who the MBTI system would designate as INTP, why on earth do we continue so unquestioningly? It's like we're happy to be blind-dumb windows users, running a fixed and veiled closed-source OS, when we could take matters into our own hands and become an intellectual linux community which constantly modifies and upgrades its systematic conceptual models. If we are truly architects, why is it that we don't start... conceiving and refining systems?

If we are happy to reside in these pre-defined structures, and not to alter and modify them and create anew upon the basis of our discussion and thought, can we really call ourselves architects? Aren't we just play-actors, happy to adopt the flattering label without embodying the creative brilliance it implies? The creators of the MBTI weren't even highly qualified and didn't have access to the evidence and intellectual overflow we do today, yet they achieved so much; surely we as a community-- with our collective talent-- can supersede their helpful but flawed first attempt?

So, I have a proposal: abandon this domain and buy maybeINTPforum.com or INTPifTheMBTIhasValidityForum.com. (It will indicate and enshrine intellectual openness).And it would also be brilliant to create a prominent sub-forum dedicated to revising and superseding the MBTI model.


EDIT: i.e. 'beyond MBTI & Other Typing', or 'beyond the MBTI'. I recongise that much incisive criticism etc. related to the topics I've discussed here has occurred already (by other forum members), but my points about immutable foundations etc. are-- I tentatively suggest-- relevant regardless.

 

[dbtng_thomas]

Go for it! I'll donate $5 to your cause and promise to check the site at least twice a week for the first three months. If it takes off, it might be fun.

- dt

 

[Lyra]

I was more concerned with this community, and its potential. There's a lot of talent here, and I often feel that the way that the social structures we engage in are inter-meshed with a rigid conceptual framework limits the collective potential of that talent.

Perhaps it's because the conceptual framework provides a solid sense of identity, and a refuge from the criticism, isolation and outsider-ness that many people who test as 'INTP' experience in the day-to-day world. Perhaps it's that-- and that it was that label and that methodology which brought us here, to a place where we feel more at home-- that undercuts usual distance and objectivity.

It's much harder to be a system-builder when, to do that, one has to challenge something as personally meaningful as the 'INTP' label is to many people here.

Anyway, I'm just suggesting. I think that the forum has enough momentum by its own merits to surpass dependence upon the MBTI. I think that our identifications-- and the meanings we find in this community-- could actually be vitalised by the process.*Shrug*. Not forcing anything, or trying to.

p.s. The thing about changing URLs was a joke. Sort of.

 

[warryer]

I think we already have achieved what you describe. The only reason that I found this place is because I typed INTP into google.

It's better to call the INTP "label" a symbol instead. Kind of like the golden arches of McDonald's or the American flag. In this case it would symbolize the type of people who introspect endlessly about damn near anything.

 

[Lyra]

I agree that 'label' isn't the right word. I'm not sure that 'symbol' is either, though.

 

[FusionKnight]

Remember that psycho-development is a process. Many of us found this place because we were in that stage of development when we finally realize there is a reason we are the way we are, that it's natural, and beneficial to mankind that we exist. Because the INTP archetype is so rare, individuals who identify as INTP often feel downtrodden, broken, neglected, and warred-against.

Ultimately the goal of psycho-development should probably be to transcend the archetypes described by MBTI, and become a more whole and balanced person. But this takes time, effort and intentionality. It could take an entire lifetime to make significant progress.

 

[Decaf]

As INTPs we are tempted to isolate ourselves to protect our feelings of personal integrity. The world demands much that rubs us the wrong way and success seems to carry a hefty price tag. As a community we could pursue our own kind of success. That's probably a good idea to pursue, but I think it'd be separate from the purpose of this place.

The INTPforum is food and water for hungry travelers, unable to find acceptance at the oasis used by others. This forum helped me to make the transition from hesitant and shameful agnosticism into atheism. I feel confidant in my views without feeling the same self-preserving certainty I had adopted growing up as a Christian and credit this community for helping me properly explore how I felt. From that I hope to achieve my own success as a less-conflicted individual.

That being said, I see your point with one caveat. Rather than this being an amazing opportunity because we are INTPs, I think our potential rests in our enthusiasm for the well being of each other.

Maybe we should start a project thread. Put a book together about a subject that benefits from multiple perspectives and have dozens of us write our two cents. Did you have something more culturally beneficial in mind?

 

[FusionKnight]

I love the idea of a project thread. It reminds me of something I read about the founder of the MENSA society. He was disappointed that it had become nothing more than a social networking group, rather than what he intended it to be: a think-tank made up of the best minds in the world bent to the purpose of improving the human condition...

I feel like we could take up that mantle here...

 

[Anthile]

I often have the - rather amusing - thought to compare typology to religion. Jung would probably be the Abraham as he laid the foundation and is respected by all branches. MBTI would be of course Christianity being the most widespread model. Socionics would be the Islam, they're not necessarily wrong but kinda weird and nobody really understands them. Enneagram would be Hinduism I guess. I see the particular types as branches.

Why am I telling this? Because typology suffers from problems that are very similar to the

1. Everything that goes beyond Jung lacks scientific evidence and studies that are crucial for validation.

2. Too many people who have have no clue about it write more than the 'professionals' and thus they are obfuscating the original meaning.

 

[BigApplePi]

The INTP acronym is a label as well as a center for an identity. You are right that we are rare and we have talent. I agree we have plenty of potential. Don't forget now that what the message writer is, whether he identifies as INTP or ESFJ messages about more than himself. Architects build about the outside world even though conceived inside do they not? Isn't Ne the 2ndary function? Can't deny it.

But we have some INTP characteristics that weigh on us. One is the J function. Judgment means choosing and we need direction. And INTPs (perish the label) perhaps need leadership which I understand we don't excel in.

I have been working on a pet project. Architectural to be sure by the modest title of:

"How To Understand Anything"
http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=5860

Feel free to take a glance. But it may be too early to join in. I let it go and plan to come back to it from time-to-time. If you post to it, I'll take note. Until then, I've more things to present. Ta-ta.

 

[BigApplePi]

Don't misunderstand me, please: I love this forum.

And I don't meant to criticise it or its members.

I simply feel that continuing to base the community and its categories of discussion upon one, fixed theoretical model compromises our intellectual flexibility. Isn't that so-very un-INTP?

It's often said here that the MBTI is just a starting point, or a useful tool. But, nevertheless, a community with such a fixed and immutable conceptual foundation-- one which remains constant even if it is challenged or superseded in intellectual argument-- will be inhibited by it. Its thought will construct and combine in ways determined by the limits of that foundation, and its entire structure will be limited by that.

I must pay credit where credit is due: the 'INTP' label, and the methodology of which it is a part, allowed this place to be what it is, and allowed it to attract those that it did. I'm as thankful for that as others here. But if we really are the type of person who the MBTI system would designate as INTP, why on earth do we continue so unquestioningly? It's like we're happy to be blind-dumb windows users, running a fixed and veiled closed-source OS, when we could take matters into our own hands and become an intellectual linux community which constantly modifies and upgrades its systematic conceptual models. If we are truly architects, why is it that we don't start... conceiving and refining systems?

If we are happy to reside in these pre-defined structures, and not to alter and modify them and create anew upon the basis of our discussion and thought, can we really call ourselves architects? Aren't we just play-actors, happy to adopt the flattering label without embodying the creative brilliance it implies? The creators of the MBTI weren't even highly qualified and didn't have access to the evidence and intellectual overflow we do today, yet they achieved so much; surely we as a community-- with our collective talent-- can supersede their helpful but flawed first attempt?

So, I have a proposal: abandon this domain and buy maybeINTPforum.com or INTPifTheMBTIhasValidityForum.com. (It will indicate and enshrine intellectual openness).And it would also be brilliant to create a prominent sub-forum dedicated to revising and superseding the MBTI model.


EDIT: i.e. 'beyond MBTI & Other Typing', or 'beyond the MBTI'. I recongise that much incisive criticism etc. related to the topics I've discussed here has occurred already (by other forum members), but my points about immutable foundations etc. are-- I tentatively suggest-- relevant regardless.

Who created this and other inspiring threads? Who deserves credit for inspiring others? Who dares to put herself forth and risk what she does? I have to overcome my shyness to tell her so. Let's give Lyra the credit she deserves. Can you be our muse Lyra?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_s60WCv2jG4Q/Swc5WXzVdyI/AAAAAAAAAE0/uhNFmDCwJgI/s1600/Urania_fig01.jpg

 

[dbtng_thomas]

I think of one thing when the subject of organizing a group of INTPs for a grand project comes up.

HERDING CATS
YouTube- Herding Cats

- dt

 

[ashitaria]

You know, when I first saw this, I thought: Oh noez, Lyra is making a hate thread!

But I was proven wrong. Hm....I would love a project thread, but I am too busy at school to contribute too much. But it will be very interesting, I must say.

 

[Lyra]

Noted, FusionKnight. That's an incisive point.

 

[Fukyo]

I often have the - rather amusing - thought to compare typology to religion. Jung would probably be the Abraham as he laid the foundation and is respected by all branches. MBTI would be of course Christianity being the most widespread model. Socionics would be the Islam, they're not necessarily wrong but kinda weird and nobody really understands them. Enneagram would be Hinduism I guess. I see the particular types as branches.

I like your analogy, although Enneagram's got nothing to do with Jung.

 

[preilemus]

I like your analogy, although Enneagram's got nothing to do with Jung.

*Insert joke about living up to user title*

 

[Fukyo]

I seem to have had a speed reading lapse... :/

Oh, well.

 

[BornUpsideDown]

I agree that 'label' isn't the right word. I'm not sure that 'symbol' is either, though.

I like mnemonic. It indicates something which has been discovered, here, being INTP. As for assigning mnemonics to other types, it could be though of as jarring your memory for how they might have answered questions on that nifty little quiz.

I think of one thing when the subject of organizing a group of INTPs for a grand project comes up.

I really had a good laugh about that. I don't know why, but that's just accurate to the core. I am still laughing.

 

[EditorOne]

"The INTPforum is food and water for hungry travelers, unable to find acceptance at the oasis used by others."

Yeah.

 

[ohrtonz]

I do sort of agree. The first few weeks that I discovered all this INTP and Aspergers and what not stuff. I read alot on this forum. Read about other people with similar experiences, or other experiences while under similar personality. I found my proof and justification that I am "special" as I am, and I have value. This is my foundation of the base of my personality. Now I don't read much anymore and I'm out and about now. (except this post title made me courious, also I only read a few things you said and no one else's) I just come here for, yes, I admit, the videos are fun sometimes. Anyways, IF I do have trouble or need to rant something out I may come in here. Why sign up at another forum, or do it at some site that has my real nicknames, etc. When I can come here. Doesn't mean I'm restricting myself. But I suppose you can argue that the advice I would get could be from only INTP perspectives. Meh

 

[BigApplePi]

Re: The Original Post and how fixated should we be on INTPness and what it might be?

Do you want the long answer or the short one?

Here is the short one. This is a forum. To sustain any forum it helps to have content. People need a home. A place they can feel comfortable with, return to and feel, ahem, at home. Here that is INTP.

We can question our home, improve it. No problem. But dwelling on it tends to destroy what it is.

 

[Saeros]

So, I have a proposal: abandon this domain and buy maybeINTPforum.com or INTPifTheMBTIhasValidityForum.com. (It will indicate and enshrine intellectual openness).And it would also be brilliant to create a prominent sub-forum dedicated to revising and superseding the MBTI model..

having a domain name that long kind of defeats the point of domain names; it might be easier in that case to just remember: 64.57.208.202, and type that instead

 

[Starfruit M.E.]

I really agree with BigApplePi. I like things the way they are. I came here, as someone else said, because I typed INTP into google. I come here to talk to like-minded people. MBTI was only a starting point, but it doesn't change that having that label united me with people similar enough that I feel comfortable coming here for advice and to just get on and talk. We don't have to get stuck with the weaknesses of the average INTP, but if you're here, you can relate with people along a similar journey of self-improvement and find a place to relax and get advice. We meet other types in the real world. This place is one place I just want to be able to count on staying a haven from the real world where I can act like a geek or just skip straight to the deep topics without all the other junk. I like it here. Improvements are welcome, but the core of it is already right and it doesn't need those kind of changes.

The use of the title "architect" frankly annoyed me. I'm who I am whether I support your group or not. I say I'll improve upon this group by not supporting efforts like this and by creating ways to better support the core of this group as it is.

 

[echoplex]

I always thought "INTP (if MBTI is valid) Forum" was sort of an understood reality for "INTPs". People who self-identify as INTP will typically be people that question assumptions and approach things as 'x (if x is a valid concept) y' anyway. I don't think the use of the label is an indication of its unquestioned acceptance, but rather its place as a (currently) meaningful and useful label, in the absence of a widely-agreed better one.

 

[pjoa09]

Lyra, why are you using windows then? Yeah well I don't have enough of FREE TIME!!!! and fucking ETHERNET wires to get my Slackware on.. Sorry this is a very emotional point for me. I CANT FIGURE OUT THE WIRELESS FOR SLACKWARE!

oh and it takes effort to actually learn C# and C++ and well I was working on Python then i got distracted by hackthissite.org then i got upset because i was spending an entire day on one mission.

So the most pleasurable thing here is to talk shit and slack around.. But that thought extremely entertains me... I run ubuntu on my other computer so I am not all closed source. I am using firefox and thunderbird. So I am definetly rebelling in certain ways.

 

[dreamoftheunknown]

So the most pleasurable thing here is to talk shit and slack around..

Isn't that SOOO INTP?

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Who the hell resurrected this thread?

 

[dreamoftheunknown]

Looking at the dates, I would guess pjoa09.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Looking at the dates, I would guess pjoa09.

Yes, that would be the sensible thing to do.

 

[Jennywocky]

p.s. The thing about changing URLs was a joke. Sort of.

I thought it was cute.

... but more seriously, focus less on the site name and just be a member who transcends rigid INTP roles. The name makes less diference than you realize, and it's still useful in order to provide a beacon toward the intuitive intellectuals who need to find each other and get some confidence and foundation before moving back into the world; you want to focus more on changing the people while they are here, not the name.