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Thread split from what gender are you internally: Is transgenderism/gender dysphoria a mental illnes

Brontosaurie

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

What? Everything that doesn't rest upon an imaginary future ideal state isn't thus rendered a pure appeal to status quo. Bitch please.

I can't know what exactly is required, but it doesn't take a genius to get that words carry value and mental illness carries a very negative one. You're going down the sceptic route now. Telltale sign of running out of arguments.

Im arguing that people have to learn to accept transgendered people which they have not and that calling transgendered people mentally ill will be highly counterproductive in that regard.

what imaginary future state ideal? this is ludicrous. you're the one arguing for ideal over reality. i'm just saying as is. and i happen to believe in mankind, even if mostly out of boredom. the mankind i believe in isn't ever-increasingly dependent on convenient lies and thought policing. it's in the process of liberation from those things.

you're saying i'm "going down the sceptic route now" although i'm actually not (since i'm not invoking universal formal unknowability, merely futility just like you). telltale sign of running out of arguments. it doesn't take a genious to realize that black people are considered ugly and low value and we should therefore call them white in pursuit of justice. that's _exactly_ your proposition. you're not getting around this. please do try.

people also have to learn to accept mental illness. transsexuality IS a mental illness. go figure.
 

Cherry Cola

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

You don't teach people effectively by just telling them truths, because the truths will be warped by their preconceptions. Teaching people that transsexuality is a mental illness will not lead them to understand transsexuality to a greater degree, rather it will teach them that they don't need to because its a mental illness.

I am also of the opinions that truth can be taught more effectively in a world where people respect and understand one another, ergo a world currently more effectively facilitated by not calling transsexuality a mental illness.

Hado: Come on me and Bronto have had lots of fights! I appreciate the fact that Bronto unlike other people like Proxy doesn't just drop in to get his opinion across and won't chicken out of debates.
 

redbaron

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

not to downplay society, but a huge amount of distress comes from not feeling like one belongs in ones body which hasn't really got anything to do with society in itself :O

this is a tangent and an unnecessary one but regarding adhd theres the hunter gatherer theory and increased prevalance of adhd found in some nomadic people

I know there really is severe gender dysphoria but I'd contend that not every single transgender experiences literal dysphoria.

In any case what purpose does the classification serve? Less attention on whether or not the mechanisms are an illness and more attention on understanding the mechanisms. From a modern psychological perspective, I don't consider transgenderism an illness in most contexts.

From a personal perspective, I don't really view many things (if any) as a mental illness, since it's such a poorly defined concept in the first place. As you've noted an illness in one context is a blessing.

I tend to think that the less emphasis we put on nomenclature of social and psychological phenomena the better.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

i was under the impression we're trying to have an open, honest intellectual discussion. not "teaching" each other. i wouldn't necessarily express myself exactly the same if my aim was to teach people to more accepting of transsexuals. i would be slower and more pedagogic and i wouldn't assume high intelligence and certain shared notions. how did this discussion get to a point where i have to reassure you of such trivial things?

anyway it's highly possible that much prejudice against transsexuals can indeed be abated by informing that it's a mental illness as opposed to some flight of fancy or trend-whoring. but the whining pomo transsexuals and SJW groupies don't want to abate prejudice, they want to fight.
 

Cherry Cola

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

I'm inclined to agree. Mental illness isn't a term that purports understanding, its a broad category which allows people to NOT have to think about the stuff that falls under it. Not very facilitative of truth.

I dont understand how its so important that truth be respected when what we are dealing with is a broad term stemming from a field which is young and whose terms are riddled with ambiguity and arbitrariness in general.

I bet psychology is gonna see quite a bit of revamping. Say that it makes a bit more sense atm to call transsexualism a mental illness, who cares? Its not maths or physics. And while the result then would be that people would be using the right term for one single phenomenon they would still be stupider and less knowledgeable in general.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

I'm inclined to agree. Mental illness isn't a term that purports understanding, its a broad category which allows people to NOT have to think about the stuff that falls under it. Not very facilitative of truth.

the term isn't necessarily to be used in teaching the masses. it would be better to explain transsexuality from the ground up. but doing that would entail a description that fits strict criteria for mental illness. as i mentioned before transsexuality is way more of a self-contained, clear-cut mental illness than, say, ADHD which is more or less a cluster of difficult temperament traits.

acceptance of transsexuality and acceptance of mental illness don't necessarily have to be the same process, but to really accept transsexuality means understanding it as one would a mental illness.
 

Cherry Cola

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

i was under the impression we're trying to have an open, honest intellectual discussion. not "teaching" each other. i wouldn't necessarily express myself exactly the same if my aim was to teach people to more accepting of transsexuals. i would be slower and more pedagogic and i wouldn't assume high intelligence and certain shared notions. how did this discussion get to a point where i have to reassure you of such trivial things?

anyway it's highly possible that much prejudice against transsexuals can indeed be abated by informing that it's a mental illness as opposed to some flight of fancy or trend-whoring. but the whining pomo transsexuals and SJW groupies don't want to abate prejudice, they want to fight.

Where did you get this notion from? You have misunderstood then.

And no its not possible prejudice can be abated that way. Calling it a mental illness would make it difficult to even treat gender dysphoria at all. People would think allowing people two transitions would be like telling a paranoid schizophrenic that the FBI is indeed out to get him/her. Parents would be even more devastated than they are right now learning that their child is mentally ill. Suspicion against transsexuals would increase in general. You don't need to respect the views of a mentally ill person, they are just insane ramblings.

I mean come on, you should know how little people know about psychological issues and just how prejudiced they are.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

Where did you get this notion from? You have misunderstood then.

And no its not possible prejudice can be abated that way. Calling it a mental illness would make it difficult to even treat gender dysphoria at all. People would think allowing people two transitions would be like telling a paranoid schizophrenic that the FBI is indeed out to get him/her. Parents would be even more devastated than they are right now learning that their child is mentally ill. Suspicion against transsexuals would increase in general. You don't need to respect the views of a mentally ill person, they are just insane ramblings.

I mean come on, you should know how little people know about psychological issues and just how prejudiced they are.

we aren't having an open honest conversation? guess i misunderstood.

why wouldn't that be possible? the desperation shines through when you're declaring such a thing strictly impossible.

strawmanstrawmanstrawmanstrawmanstrawman did you read my post?

clearly mental illness in general should be shown more tolerance. people should be nicer. we aren't perfect. where did your point go?
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

it doesn't take a genious to realize that black people are considered ugly and low value and we should therefore call them white in pursuit of justice. that's _exactly_ your proposition. you're not getting around this. please do try.

this has yet to be addressed properly. you have zero point if you can't.
 

redbaron

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

The decision of whether or not to label something as a mental illness or not is not a matter of truth. It's just a matter of labelling.

The only truth of transgenderism is that it refers to people who feel like the wrong biological gender. Whatever additional label you want to put that under doesn't have any bearing on what it actually is. Yet it does have bearing on how it affects people's preconceptions of what transgender is.

Since it's no more "true" to call it an illness than to just call it another trait, then I'd rather go with the one that isn't going to perpetuate prejudice.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

The only truth of transgenderism is that it refers to people who feel like the wrong biological gender.

which means unambiguously that they have a pervasive mental error i.e. a mental illness.
 

redbaron

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

No more of pervasive mental error than homosexuality.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

which could also very well be considered a mental illness seeing as it impedes the organism's incentive and thus capacity to reproduce.

start in yourselves guys, it's the only way. i wish i could convey the immense importance of this.
 

Ex-User (11125)

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

which means unambiguously that they have a pervasive mental error i.e. a mental illness.

but this kind of judgement is arbitrary and boils down to how we decide to define mental illness, otherwise it wouldn't have been possible for psychologists to expel transgender from under the umbrella of mental illness

besides, you still didnt reply to my question. you mentioned people having ambiguous definition of sex as one of the negative consequences to not labeling tg as mental-illness...but why?
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

but this kind of judgement is arbitrary and boils down to how we decide to define mental illness, otherwise it wouldn't have been possible for psychologists to expel transgender from under the umbrella of mental illness

mental illness isn't an arbitrary concept. it is however subject to demarcation problems like almost anything. but transsexuality isn't a borderline case of mental illness, it's a clear-cut one. the mind (mentality) of the organism is maladapted internally to the organism itself. the organism is self-aware of the wrong thing. it's pretty much as mental illness as it gets.

psychologists operate in the corporate world, not in science. DSM isn't a scientific article. yet gender dysphoria persists as a diagnosis so really any way you put this stuff will be in favor of my position.
 

redbaron

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

which could also very well be considered a mental illness seeing as it impedes the organism's incentive and thus capacity to reproduce.

Which again is a matter of labelling, not truth.

Truth: homosexuality is attraction to the same sex.
Labelling: attraction to the same sex is a mental illness.

Labelling something as a mental illness doesn't aid in treatment or understanding of something. It's irrelevant to truth. It is relevant to prejudicial preconceptions though, which form a huge part of what causes distress to transgenders and homosexuals.

Ergo one of the best ways to fight many of the social and psychological issues these groups face is to not give credence to arbitrary labels, and to avoid just labelling things for the sake of appeasing our own personal sense of order.

start in yourselves guys, it's the only way. i wish i could convey the immense importance of this.

I agree. It's immensely important that people stop insisting on labels and focus more on truth.
 

Black Rose

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

mental illness is a loss of metabolic balance
one side is too strong the other too weak
negative emotions happen as destability
neurosis is acting against your nature
act like who you are inside and you become well
 

onesteptwostep

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

I'm gonna muse a bit, but I wonder what would happen if you put a gay guy and a lesbian all alone on a deserted island. Wouldn't they do it after a couple months? >.>

I mean, it's possible..

Like if you put a guy who clearly professed to be gay after years and years of trying, with a lesbian who clearly professed to be les after years and years of trying herself.

I mean technically this would be ethically wrong to try out, but if so..
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

I'm gonna muse a bit, but I wonder what would happen if you put a gay guy and a lesbian all alone on a deserted island. Wouldn't they do it after a couple months? >.>

I mean, it's possible..

Like if you put a guy who clearly professed to be gay after years and years of trying, with a lesbian who clearly professed to be les after years and years of trying herself.

I mean technically this would be ethically wrong to try out, but if so..

why would they have been "trying" for "years and years"? sounds medieval.
 

onesteptwostep

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

Well what I mean by that is, they tried and tried their best to be hetero but they couldn't. Like, a decade, even.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

Which again is a matter of labelling, not truth.

Truth: homosexuality is attraction to the same sex.
Labelling: attraction to the same sex is a mental illness.

Labelling something as a mental illness doesn't aid in treatment or understanding of something. It's irrelevant to truth. It is relevant to prejudicial preconceptions though, which form a huge part of what causes distress to transgenders and homosexuals.

Ergo one of the best ways to fight many of the social and psychological issues these groups face is to not give credence to arbitrary labels, and to avoid just labelling things for the sake of appeasing our own personal sense of order.



I agree. It's immensely important that people stop insisting on labels and focus more on truth.

you think mental illness isn't a real thing. i do. and i have given a very clear, coherent, holistic definition of mental illness.

"labels" are also called words. they carry concepts. it gets hard to communicate without good words. communication is important for human progress. right now arbitrary corporate interests have occupied the definition of mental illnesses. does that render the concept itself invalid? should we let them have it?

when, how and why do clearly defined terms become "personal sense of order"? i think this needs to be addressed.
 

onesteptwostep

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

Well, I'm being serious, but just musing. Homosexuals in America have gone through stuff like that, though I'm not sure that that sort of thing happens in Europe.
 

redbaron

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

when, how and why do clearly defined terms become "personal sense of order"? i think this needs to be addressed.

What effect does defining transgender as a mental illness have? It does nothing to improve understanding of the condition or its treatment, and it certainly does nothing to dispel negative preconceptions about it.

Its only purpose is to have a clear definition between whether or not it's a mental illness, or to have a clear definition between genders. Neither have anything to do with truth, since mental illness is totally contextual and so is gender.

There's no positives for labelling it a mental illness, but there are negatives. There's no negatives for just leaving it at the truth: transgenderism is feeling like the wrong biological gender.

I don't see why there's a need to classify it further, especially when further classification is only going to spread more misunderstanding.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

Well, I'm being serious, but just musing. Homosexuals in America have gone through stuff like that, though I'm not sure that that sort of thing happens in Europe.

why would homosexuals need 10 years do decide what they like? are you backing up condescending prejudice like that? america is no argument.
 

Polaris

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Classification is great for those with the mental illness called obsessive compulsive disorder.
 

onesteptwostep

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

why would homosexuals need 10 years do decide what they like? are you backing up condescending prejudice like that? america is no argument.

No don't get me wrong it isn't an argument, I'm just saying, there are people in America with religious affiliations or some culturally rooted bias against homosexuality, so it takes a while for them to realize that they're actually really homosexual and to come to grips with it. I'm sure there are people on the forum who would attest to this. Remember, America just passed their okay on same sex marriage a couple days ago, on the federal level. :phear:

Anyway it's just a musing and a derail, no need to take it that seriously :cat:
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

you think mental illness isn't a real thing. i do. and i have given a very clear, coherent, holistic definition of mental illness.
What's your definition of an illness?
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

What effect does defining transgender as a mental illness have? It does nothing to improve understanding of the condition or its treatment, and it certainly does nothing to dispel negative preconceptions about it.

Its only purpose is to have a clear definition between whether or not it's a mental illness, or to have a clear definition between genders. Neither have anything to do with truth, since mental illness is totally contextual and so is gender.

There's no positives for labelling it a mental illness, but there are negatives. There's no negatives for just leaving it at the truth: transgenderism is feeling like the wrong biological gender.

I don't see why there's a need to classify it further, especially when further classification is only going to spread more misunderstanding.

the positive of having properly defined terms to communicate with isn't so immediate and concrete. the positive of labelling transsexuality a mental illness isn't in some practical application of the labelling itself, but to have terms that better reflect a cohesive understanding of the phenomena present in our world. i'm not talking about psychiatry.

would you disqualify basic research on the basis that it has no foreseeable application?
 

Jennywocky

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

why would homosexuals need 10 years do decide what they like? are you backing up condescending prejudice like that? america is no argument.

I'm honestly surprised by this question, and all I can gather is that you have no experience in your culture with that kind of social suppression if you are expressing a rudimentary confusion over why this is so.

When you're brought up to hear a particular kind of preference/inclination bashed, and you're taught that God didn't make you this way, and that if you end up this way, you must have been either influenced by bad people or bad media, or that the devil [insert random diabolical influence here] is making you feel these things and it is otherwise unnatural, and the people you rely on to provide you with a home and food and clothes (who you are supposed to love) are all telling you that those feelings are not natural and in fact debased and evil and just another selfish desire...

... yes, you're going to get VERY confused. Reperssion for inclinations outside the norm is very common in a society like the USA and especially states with strong religious mores. (It's not isolated to just us; look at any culture with strong religious underpinnings, which basically will label some feelings and desires as "BAD" in order to tide the behavior.) The political and social abuse and repression of homosexuals in USA culture also is well-documented.

Feelings themselves are something we learn how to manage by comparing our experiences with others who we trust. When everyone we depend on and trust tells us that certain feelings are bad, we repress because we don't want to be bad. Or we are told that if we just follow the prescribed behavior, or believe harder in God, or whatever solution is tossed out there, that these bad feelings will go away, then we will try out that solution. That's why here in the states it's not an uncommon narrative at all to hear that someone had same-sex attractions and behaviors as a kid, but tried to get married and be straight anyway, and eventually became so miserable that they had to try something else.

What effect does defining transgender as a mental illness have? It does nothing to improve understanding of the condition or its treatment, and it certainly does nothing to dispel negative preconceptions about it.

Its only purpose is to have a clear definition between whether or not it's a mental illness, or to have a clear definition between genders. Neither have anything to do with truth, since mental illness is totally contextual and so is gender.

There's no positives for labelling it a mental illness, but there are negatives. There's no negatives for just leaving it at the truth: transgenderism is feeling like the wrong biological gender.

I don't see why there's a need to classify it further, especially when further classification is only going to spread more misunderstanding.


That was what I was going to address, as you've noted. It's a needless classification. There are other things that could represent a mismatch in some way as well, but why is there a need to classify them with the stigma of a mental illness? Because it serves no point to classify them if the person is functioning as fine as everyone else in society. 'Illness" is a term used when we think someone is unhealthy and we want to make them well. Here you want to slap a derogatory term on something that depends on merely how much hormonal influence aligned with your karotype that happened to wash through your body and brain at week 5 of gestation (for example); it's more a variation rather than something that demands to be "fixed," especially because it's liable to not be fixable anyway (restored to karotype, presumably, by your past comments) based on clinical experience.

This is why "functioning" has become a stronger litmus test. It allows for natural diversity in the gene pool and culture, but focuses its curative efforts only on the divergent elements where the patient is unable to function normally.

Moving on, if society is demeaning and punishing people for diversity's sake, when they are functioning just fine in society and with themselves, then it makes a lot more sense to remove the stigma to reduce side effects from social stigma/cultural abuse, rather than once again blaming the person who is different.

This is the reasoning applied in efforts resulting in the destigmatization of homosexuality as a preference and transsexualism. If the person is exhibiting clear signs of mental illness where they cannot function, then they should be treated psychiatrically; but the sexual orientation and gender identity issues aren't actually the illness... it's the side effects of growing up in an aggressively negative culture.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

What's your definition of an illness?

wouldn't that be something like a functional impairment? other qualifiers may be necessary and the specific implementation of the concept varies with field. critically, my definition of mental illness above is very clear at least in my view (well duh) and if something about it is ambiguous i will try to explain, but defining the whole construct of illness exhaustively doesn't seem relevant at this point. maybe it is. how come, then?
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

I'm honestly surprised by this question, and all I can gather is that you have no experience in your culture with that kind of social suppression if you are expressing a rudimentary confusion over why this is so.

When you're brought up to hear a particular kind of preference/inclination bashed, and you're taught that God didn't make you this way, and that if you end up this way, you must have been either influenced by bad people or bad media, or that the devil [insert random diabolical influence here] is making you feel these things and it is otherwise unnatural, and the people you rely on to provide you with a home and food and clothes (who you are supposed to love) are all telling you that those feelings are not natural and in fact debased and evil and just another selfish desire...

... yes, you're going to get VERY confused. Reperssion for inclinations outside the norm is very common in a society like the USA and especially states with strong religious mores. (It's not isolated to just us; look at any culture with strong religious underpinnings, which basically will label some feelings and desires as "BAD" in order to tide the behavior.) The political and social abuse and repression of homosexuals in USA culture also is well-documented.

Feelings themselves are something we learn how to manage by comparing our experiences with others who we trust. When everyone we depend on and trust tells us that certain feelings are bad, we repress because we don't want to be bad. Or we are told that if we just follow the prescribed behavior, or believe harder in God, or whatever solution is tossed out there, that these bad feelings will go away, then we will try out that solution. That's why here in the states it's not an uncommon narrative at all to hear that someone had same-sex attractions and behaviors as a kid, but tried to get married and be straight anyway, and eventually became so miserable that they had to try something else.

i'm aware that homosexuals are met with condescending prejudice and i don't need a lecture.

i interpreted onesteptwosteps musing as in agreement with the condescending prejudice by requesting "certified gays" tested by repeated sincere attempts at hetero romance. that's why i commented. and then he wasn't joking.
 

onesteptwostep

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Yeah it's fine, just a misunderstanding. :D

I am for homosexuality, and I am for same sex marriage, just to clear up.

The musing was just musings ~
 

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

wouldn't that be something like a functional impairment? other qualifiers may be necessary and the specific implementation of the concept varies with field. critically, my definition of mental illness above is very clear at least in my view (well duh) and if something about it is ambiguous i will try to explain, but defining the whole construct of illness exhaustively doesn't seem relevant at this point. maybe it is. how come, then?
Alright, so considering that any illness is an impairment of function.

How is treating influenza with antibiotics different from treating transgender by changing sex? Other than one impairment resulted from biological and another mental-neural causes (which are still biological in origin).

After the respective treatment has been completed, doesn't it make an individual healthy?

You don't call people who went through influenza as survivors, or you don't label them in any other way, correct?

Also, regardless of the above, what would you think of an individual who changed their sex without the syndromes identifiable with gender dysphoria (transgenderism), just because they felt like it (let's assume changing sex doesn't incur any seriously lasting impairment)?
 

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

the positive of having properly defined terms to communicate with isn't so immediate and concrete. the positive of labelling transsexuality a mental illness isn't in some practical application of the labelling itself, but to have terms that better reflect a cohesive understanding of the phenomena present in our world. i'm not talking about psychiatry.

would you disqualify basic research on the basis that it has no foreseeable application?

after thinking about this some more, i think i know what the bug in this whole definition business is.
stating that a person's failure to identify with their biological gender or being attracted to the same sex is a form of mental illness presupposes that there is some kind of social experience of gender that is universally correct/normal/healthy and, if anything, the original "What Gender Are You Internally?" thread alone disputes that.

in that thread you can see how discrete everyone's understanding of gender is, in addition to disparity in opinions on what constitutes male/female traits and whether or not the way you choose to physically present yourself is relevant to the internal experience of gender.

so in order to expand the definition of mental illness to include TG and homosexual people(regardless of state of psychological health), we would first have to identify what kind of gender experiences would align with what is "normal". where does this place people who do not identify with either gender and those who identify with both?

i think more and more people now are of the opinion that most what was perceived as strictly female or male traits is just a bunch of vacuous cultural stereotypes. which means that from this point on, there will only be an exponential growth in quantity of people who identify as neutral or identify with both genders. this only adds to the complexity of forming a definition...and renders a definition pointless
 

redbaron

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Brontosaurie said:
the positive of having properly defined terms to communicate with isn't so immediate and concrete. the positive of labelling transsexuality a mental illness isn't in some practical application of the labelling itself, but to have terms that better reflect a cohesive understanding of the phenomena present in our world

Ah yes I see. Calling transexuality a mental illness is a fundamental part of furthering our cohesive understanding...

...because of course if we just called transexuality by the name transexuality, everyone would misunderstand and just be terribly confused.

:cat:
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

Alright, so considering that any illness is an impairment of function.

How is treating influenza with antibiotics different from treating transgender by changing sex? Other than one impairment resulted from biological and another mental-neural causes (which are still biological in origin).

After the respective treatment has been completed, doesn't it make an individual healthy?

You don't call people who went through influenza as survivors, or you don't label them in any other way, correct?

Also, regardless of the above, what would you think of an individual who changed their sex without the syndromes identifiable with gender dysphoria (transgenderism), just because they felt like it (let's assume changing sex doesn't incur any seriously lasting impairment)?

first i will state that i'm talking about a biological concept of mental illness. it isn't normative by default. it's just a description of our basic biological functioning. and here are my answers in order, no quotes cause i'm lazy but i'm covering them:

the obvious difference: antibiotics deal with the problem directly (although not specifically) by killing bacteria. a sex change operation deals with it indirectly. it doesn't adjust the erroneous self-awareness; it modifies the body to align with that. i can totally understand this seeing as how much of our sense of self can be tied up into gender. in no way am i condemning people who opt for sex change treatments. but i also think alternative treatments which focus directly on the mental error should be explored.

provided that complete sex change is possible (which it currently isn't), the person can unambiguously be considered healthy with respect to this specific mental illness post-op i guess. for any specific patient, their preferences of course are more important than what any definition of illness might suggest, and no matter if they are to be considered wrong in their preferences or not. if a partial sex change with hormonal therapy and cosmetic surgery makes someone happy, there's nothing to complain about. but no one is perfectly healthy. btw it should be noted that antibiotics can permanently fuck up some benign bacteria cultures as well.

the third question i don't understand.

i'm perfectly fine with it. i don't want to limit anyone's voluntary behaviors. there's of course a moral problem if you should fake gender dysphoria to get a recreational treatment funded, though. and needless to say it fits the bill for my definition of mental illness even if it is for the purpose of recreation/novelty. it blatantly reflects a mind that takes stupid risks and stuff like that. i will note again that i think everyone is mentally ill in some ways.
 

Brontosaurie

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Ah yes I see. Calling transexuality a mental illness is a fundamental part of furthering our cohesive understanding...

...because of course if we just called transexuality by the name transexuality, everyone would misunderstand and just be terribly confused.

:cat:

it's not just the label, it's the understanding. i don't care what words you use. transsexuality is transsexuality and it is an intrinsic failure of self-awareness i.e. a clear-cut mental illness. if you're not accepting this classification i'm not sure you understand what transsexuality is, or what mental illness is. mental illness is a real thing, not just an arbitrary label used in big pharma.

you're being sarcastic and mocking. if you have arguments, why not put them there instead? your first sentence is purely the exact kind of condescending filth-by-association shit you're claiming to oppose. i'm not "labeling" transsexuality as an illness in the sense of oppressive stigmatizing psychiatry. i'm stating what it by definition is. a pervasive failure of the mind - a mental illness. a pervasive failure of the mind in self-awareness - an a priori mental illness. again: the problem here is how society treats mental illness, not whether transsexuality is one. it very much is. so what you are doing, again, is exactly equivalent to trying to emancipate blacks by calling them white.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

but i also think alternative treatments which focus directly on the mental error should be explored.
I think it will be possible to fix such perceptions with the progressing neuroscience. Though with easily curable fixations, phobias and estrangements, mental illness may be a cosmetic change of traits to suit ones taste.

Let's say someone wants to irrationally dislike the colour beige and program themselves for it.

So a proper mental illness would be that which doesn't leave the individual with the freedom to want to treat themselves once it becomes harmful (For example cluster A).
 

StevenM

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Correlation does not equal causation, may apply to this.

I think it is the norm for parents to mostly indirectly, but sometimes even directly, shape the rules of gender to their child starting the moment they are born. Boys get it a little slightly worse than girls.

Just like when a mother screams and jumps up on a chair quivering when she sees a mouse, the child is affected. If a father's son does something socially considered effeminate, he experiences considerable anxiety. Imagine if your 2 year old son wanted a purse, and a barbie for his birthday.

This continues through to adulthood. You may get mocked, cut off from your community, and sometimes even physically punished, if you start stepping out of line of what's socially considered 'masculine'.

Even funnier, our social construct of masculinity is 'made up'. Since we are on it anyways, we might as well say mountain dew is just for girls, dogs are only to be men's pets, and men who drink tea are queers.

So back to my original statement - TG's can tend to be depressed, confused all to hell, and scared. But the problem may not have started with their innate orientation and preferences, but the social consequences of having them, which can run into being severe.

I'm probably being captain obvious.

*************
As a side thought, not all men who dress in dresses are strictly attracted to men. So saying they are 'impaired' by not being able to reproduce does not work when making a general statement for all transgenders.
*************

In summary, I think it's just a case of 'liking' or 'not liking' something in defiance to the fabricated justice of what we must like and not like. Eventually, you get sick of drinking mountain dew only in secret, and get frustrated enough to face societal consequences.
 

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So back to my original statement - TG's can tend to be depressed, confused all to hell, and scared. But the problem may not have started with their innate orientation and preferences, but the social consequences of having them, which can run into being severe.

I'm probably being captain obvious.

While it might seem obvious to some, it also seems clear that to others it isn't obvious at all -- so it bears repeating.
 

TBerg

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Bronto seems to be proffering a definition of mental illness so broad that it encapsulates all bad mental phenomena. Anyone here think that everyone else has a lack of self-awareness?
 

Brontosaurie

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Bronto seems to be proffering a definition of mental illness so broad that it encapsulates all bad mental phenomena. Anyone here think that everyone else has a lack of self-awareness?

if they are persistent problems, of course. humanity has a fuckton of mental illness and it's unwise to ignore. talking straight about it is a good start.

everyone has lacking self-awareness, including the me one.
 

Haim

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

which could also very well be considered a mental illness seeing as it impedes the organism's incentive and thus capacity to reproduce.

start in yourselves guys, it's the only way. i wish i could convey the immense importance of this.
That's only if you see the organism as one,but human race isn't one organism,its improve the all race chance of survival.
Its a smart mechanism of evolution where a specie doesn't have a neutral death,any gene can pass on.its helping avoid overpopulation.
Illness must have some kind of disfunction ,also its implying that it need a cure,both aren't true to all transgender people.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

That's only if you see the organism as one,but human race isn't onf e organism,its improve the all race chance of survival.
Its a smart mechanism of evolution where a specie doesn't have a neutral death,any gene can pass on.its helping avoid overpopulation.
Illness must have some kind of disfunction ,also its implying that it need a cure,both aren't true to all transgender people.

i was sloppy. you are right it is possible that homosexuality is adaptive and healthy in a population. personally i never understood the "population control" hypothesis. i lean more toward it being for the caring male what schizophrenia is to the creative/schizotypal according to mr sapolsky
- an unwanted extreme of a desirable niche which nevertheless is an acceptable loss compared to the gain of maintaining the genetics in the pool. you happen to know any good research i'm very interested.
 

StevenM

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I had another thought, regarding the biological aspect.

Figuratively, there is not much difference to the person who purports that all plants must have green leaves. Green being the most optimal bandwidth filter for the energy that supplies photosynthesis. Obviously, it's right, because look at plants.

But then someone argues, and points to this atrocity:

[bimgx=250]http://dmblood.typepad.com/.a/6a00e54f900c8e8833017d3c3cd514970c-800wi[/bimgx]

The purporter agues the plant is wrong. It's maladaptive, abnormal, and sick. It needs to be fixed. It needs gene restructuring, and hormone correction.

Also, I know of a few species of snails who are hermaphrodites. Because biologically, life must be either male or female, we can say that it was a freak nuclear/chemical accident, and those snails need serious reworking and fixing. Or maybe all snails need to be hermaphrodites, in which case those that aren't need fixing.

If every single human was straight, and every single one was great being either male/female, then we can say there's some strict order about it, just like every human must have a brain, heart and liver. However with gender, it apparently isn't the case. Just like the red-leaved plant, there are some variations in the expressions of human biology.

EDIT: I just realized that the example plant could have been cross-bred or engineered in some way. Hopefully that doesn't detract from the point.
 

Haim

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Mental illness definition from wiki.
"mental illness or psychiatric disorder, is mental or behavioral pattern that causes either suffering or a poor ability to function in ordinary life. Many disorders are described.[1] Conditions that are excluded include social norms. Signs and symptoms depend on the specific disorder."
 

redbaron

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Brontosaurie said:
it's not just the label, it's the understanding.

The label of mental illness does nothing to improve understanding. It works against it.

you're being sarcastic and mocking. if you have arguments, why not put them there instead?

Already have ad nauseum.

Labelling transgender as a mental illness has nothing to do with truth, does nothing to improve understanding and ultimately just reinforces already existing social dogma.

I know you're trying really hard to convince everyone that it is, but it's pretty obvious that your goal here is neither truth or understanding.
 

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Mental illness definition from wiki.
"mental illness or psychiatric disorder, is mental or behavioral pattern that causes either suffering or a poor ability to function in ordinary life. Many disorders are described.[1] Conditions that are excluded include social norms. Signs and symptoms depend on the specific disorder."
I can agree with Bronto that TG meets the observable criteria of an illness.

It causes suffering and restricts the ability to function, prior and after the treatment. But the treatment improves the living conditions and weren't it for its medical limitations, it would eradicate suffering and restrictions imposed on these people.

It's true, that calling it an illness doesn't further others understanding or willingness to accept it. I don't see calling it differently being any useful. If there was a completely effective treatment then it would be a non-issue.

Homosexuality doesn't constitute a mental disorder, individuals with it don't suffer or don't have problems adapting to daily lives. It could be considered an illness if the pressure of the society made it impossible to function normally. But as it is now, both TG and varying sexual orientations are on their way to being accepted by the general opinion and so the suffering and observable negative symptoms are reduced as well.

In the case of homosexuality, a treatment for the "illness" is for the society to accept it.
 
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