Thoughts on crippling fear of death

[Oprale]

( TL;DR warning. I guess you can read paragraphs 3-4-5 if you want the basics )

I've been obsessed with death since I was a child. In fact, to say it in the most accurate way I can, the thought of dying and dissapearing forever never quite let me go. I don't believe in an afterlife. I would like to, but as I can only rely on stories that were probably born from that same fear, it's pointless. I need proof, and there's no true proof. The most logical explanation I can think of is that death is just like before being born. Absolutely nothing, wich is terrifying.

I know dying is against our survival instincts, and therefore that nobody is okay with that. Still, I feel really alone, caught in that situation, with this mind that don't wan't to let go. I often have severe anxiety at night, it litteraly feels like my brain is boiling, my throat '' burns '' too. Not as if I had just ran 10km, it almosts feels like... poison ? Wathever. I have a couple of other bad symptoms too, but I don't think it's releveant so I'll just skip it.

I will dissapear, I live to die. Wathever I do is pointless, as no matter how much I learn how much I think or how great I do, one day all that will simply fail to serve me, I'll die and it will dissapear with me. Time won't matter : time won't be, and I will never come back, ever. An eternity of not being, forever, and ever and ever and ever... Keep that going as long as you want. Some people seem to think having kids will change that. I don't understand them. You will still dissapear, you won't see what your kids are doing of what you thaught them, and then they'll dissapear too and eventually all humanity and maybe even all life or the universe itself.

The more I try to wrap my mind around it, to find a way to think about it the ''right way'' and make things ok, the worse it gets. It's like I am my own trigger. But if I do nothing it will just stay as it is ; and even if I don't try anything, the fear just catches me. Sometimes it gets really bad. I don't go to bed until I know I have chances to fall asleep right away, because I fear what I will think, and I know I will think about it because I fear I'll think about it. Then most of the time I won't fall asleep anyway and still get all fucked up. And if I'm really at the bottom it keeps going in the daytime and makes me feel disconnected.

I thought of suicide because of that, how ironic. One last moment of panic and then it would be all over and I wouldn't have to deal with it anymore. Wouldn't it be one of the stupidest deaths ever... I'm pretty confident I won't do it, because even if the two extremes of wanting to die and not wanting to die at any cost are fighting violently, the latter has alway been stronger. I've thought of suicide for other reasons too, but I'm still here, I guess it's something.

I think I fear dying as much as I fear my fear of dying. Aging will make it worse, as time will have passed more and more... with less and less left to live... And I really fear I'll be like that all my life, because it's simply not the kind of phobia you can confront, go through and then be fine. You die at the end and that's it, so fuck me I guess. I just don't know what I can do.

Nobody I know understands. They all think I'm just weird about that, no matter how I try to phrase it I cannot make them feel the way I feel. And I don't understand them either ! How can you not fear death as I do isn't a thing I understand, because death is the worse thing that could happen and it will no matter what. Sometimes I feel as if a lot of them just don't understand yet but will one day because a lot of them just haven't lost loved ones. Others look like they're just believing in things that makes no sense to patch the fear and pretend it doesn't exist. Well, maybe it's better if they don't see it as I do... But I feel lonely as hell.

Maybe that's why I'm writing this, because I don't really know if I'm trying to find a solution, I don't think there's one. Maybe I'm just trying to reach to someone. Generaly even if INTPs aren't always the best to deal with feelings they have a talent to see other's point of view clearly... I would like to know your insights...

 

[QuickTwist]

I understand your frustration, I do. What has helped me in dealing with the fear of death is knowing that in death comes the fruition of my life. Everything I have done up until I die is a dynamic wave and once I die, all I stood for, everything I did will be brought into the scope of reality and it will be known. Whether people see it or not is of no consequence. All that matters is what I lived for.

 

[Oprale]

Working hard to not die and have done nothing, is that what you mean. Even if you have done plenty of things it won't matter for yourself once you'll be dead, but I agree it might bring peace in your last days. I'm not sure I get the spiritual part.

 

[QuickTwist]

Working hard to not die and have done nothing, is that what you mean. Even if you have done plenty of things it won't matter for yourself once you'll be dead, but I agree it might bring peace in your last days. I'm not sure I get the spiritual part.

Yes, I guess I feel I have worked hard to not die and done nothing. I agree that living for what you do is an exercise in futility, but it is still better than giving up and dying. Honestly, I'm not sure I understand the spiritual aspect of what I said either.

 

[Intolerable]

Read my post here: http://intpforum.com/showpost.php?p=507226&postcount=79

In regards to a belief in a higher power or an afterlife.

My personal take on your fear is that you fear the unknown when you shouldn't. It may even be appropriate to fear what we know more than what we don't know.

As I think about it I think that makes a lot of sense. I would rather have nothing than the Abrahamic idea of afterlife.

 

[Urakro]

When reading your post, I started getting the impression more and more and I tried empathizing. There was a chill slowly going up my spine. I guess most other people put voluntary effort to ignore the fact. They pretend it's not there, and put faith in something else. Or just forget it all together.

But it's blatantly there, real as ever. I say you are just more disillusioned than others.

Sometimes I get blips of nihilism. It seems to take away the magic from the world, and replaces it with a raw, mechanical bleakness. It takes away my wonder of love, the curiosities and ambitions, and renders them redundant. Just machines under control of sophisticated physics. But after I revert to starting over again, imagining it as a blank canvas and I draw meaning to it again. Something to aspire to.

 

[Intolerable]

But after I revert to starting over again, imagining it as a blank canvas and I draw meaning to it again. Something to aspire to.

That's essentially it. Once you've settled on what it isn't you can reach for what is possible.

 

[Minuend]

I've experienced something similar to this when I was younger. To me it seemed like my brain got "stuck" there. Normally people are able to realize they are going to die, but they are not "feeling" it. They know they might end up in a fatal car crash, but they don't "feel" it. If they did, they'd be having difficulty living their lives. They realize they could die, then they "move on" from it. While it seems you got stuck from a very young age. I guess there's a chance your brain has gotten used to those neural pathways and it will be more difficult to unstuck it if that's what you want. Perhaps it is within the realms of possibilities that you're born with more activity in the amygdala or so which increases default anxiety which could lead to these types of thoughts/ feelings from a very young age. I think it can still be worked with, however.

Anyways, mine automatically disappeared as my anxiety did when on SSRI. I still *know it* I just don't *feel it*. I wouldn't recommend SSRIs, though, as I suspect they are the source of a few physical problems several years after quitting.

 

[JimJambones]

I always thought the fear of death was worse while I laid in bed at night trying to sleep. It was often when I was über-conscious of my consciousness and of my own existence. I suppose death would be quite like that moment when you fall asleep without being aware of it. Instead of waking up the next morning and being able to think "Wow, I don't remember falling asleep last night", there will be nothing at all. It can be kind of frightening when you think about it, but it need not be. It's acceptance must be conditioned so one can face it with a peaceful mind.

For myself, it has gotten better with age. I accept that it is consciousness that creates the concept of self and it is all just a product of our brain. Sometimes, our consciousness creates the illusion of I instead of just i. We tend to over-identify with I and cling to it. It is the clinging to it that causes the distress. It has helped by learning to take life less seriously and to sometimes joke about the absurdity of existence. Maybe I'll die with a smile on my face. Hopefully, none of my friends or family will paint my face to look like the Joker's. But what will I care, I'll be dead!

 

[AndyC]

I know this is very INTP, but we still haven't considered the principles of fear. From there we could link the two using their similarities. I will be back sometime after I 1. learn about emotions in neuroscience 2. Using this consider how links 'interlink'. and 3. Stop getting distracted by the surrounding social conventions of everyday life. Unless of course no one replies and I never get back to this.

 

[Redfire]

There's nothing you can do about it. So: why worry?

Some here may say it's not actually certain you will die, provided science advances fast enough and we have life extension, etc. I find that to be quite dysfunctional. You just end up hoping it will come, and then forget to live your life.

Just do the best you can with the time you have. What would you like to do in life? Be a movie director? A lion tamer? A writer? Smoking pot and watching TV shows? Just go ahead and do it.

 

[Bock]

So: why worry?

Anxiety and mood disorders aren't things you can argue away or simply ignore.
Naturally something like death scares us but if it's something that haunts you - it's pretty much some form of intrusive thought. As minuend said, most people can deal with "negative" feelings/thoughts by pushing through it and/or not truly feeling the "weight" of the matter and so on. Some are not so fortunate though. Serotonin? Dopamine? Inadequate angles really, i believe we are far away from understanding mood/qualia/experience of consciousness etc.
SSRI/SNRI are bad jokes and depressants are essentially sledgehammers.
This leaves us with various stimulants, which almost always increase anxiety.
Fan-fucking-tastic

My fear of death is mostly focused around the actual dying part and not so much about the whole existence into non-existence ordeal (makes me depressed more than fearful). I've had some rather bad fainting experiences that probably doesn't help.

 

[Redfire]

Anxiety and mood disorders aren't things you can argue away or simply ignore.
Naturally something like death scares us but if it's something that haunts you - it's pretty much some form of intrusive thought. As minuend said, most people can deal with "negative" feelings/thoughts by pushing through it and/or not truly feeling the "weight" of the matter and so on. Some are not so fortunate though. Serotonin? Dopamine? Inadequate angles really, i believe we are far away from understanding mood/qualia/experience of consciousness etc.
SSRI/SNRI are bad jokes and depressants are essentially sledgehammers.
This leaves us with various stimulants, which almost always increase anxiety.
Fan-fucking-tastic

My fear of death is mostly focused around the actual dying part and not so much about the whole existence into non-existence ordeal (makes me depressed more than fearful). I've had some rather bad fainting experiences that probably doesn't help.

Well, I used to be scared, and now I'm not. And it went away when I simply accepted the facts of life. It may not work for everyone.

Look at this quote from Stanley Kubrick:

“The very meaninglessness of life forces man to create his own meaning. Children, of course, begin life with an untarnished sense of wonder, a capacity to experience total joy at something as simple as the greenness of a leaf; but as they grow older, the awareness of death and decay begins to impinge on their consciousness and subtly erode their joie de vivre, their idealism – and their assumption of immortality. As a child matures, he sees death and pain everywhere about him, and begins to lose faith in the ultimate goodness of man. But, if he’s reasonably strong – and lucky – he can emerge from this twilight of the soul into a rebirth of life’s elan. Both because of and in spite of his awareness of the meaninglessness of life, he can forge a fresh sense of purpose and affirmation. He may not recapture the same pure sense of wonder he was born with, but he can shape something far more enduring and sustaining. The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent; but if we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death – however mutable man may be able to make them – our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfillment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light.”

 

[Silvermoon]

The key is to stop thinking of yourself a single entity doomed to eventual destruction and realize that we are one universe, one collection of matter/antimatter that takes many forms. You are part of something bigger than yourself even if you reject the notion of the after life, just think about it: given enough time hydrogen atoms begin to wonder why they exist and where their existence is headed. Your existence is just one part of a greater system that has existed before you were born and will continue to exist after you die, regardless of how you feel about it, so in a sense nothing really died it was just reformed into new life an new matter. And you can rest easy knowing you played your part in the mystical puzzle of the universe and although you are dead your existence is not over because it is forever imprinted of the matrix of time, so you never will have n o t existed. You will only be u n c o n s c i o u s for the period of time after your death, which although infinite is the same time you spent unconscious before you were born which you were o.k. with right because you already did it?

 

[Jennywocky]

^ sure, that's fine on the universal scale (although if the universe contracts to a pinprick in some billions of years, or diffuses enough that there is no cohesion between any particles, there honestly won't be any meaningful imprint of one individual's existence).

THe issue is more about individual consciousness - that seems to be the scope of these worries and fears. Changing the scope really doesn't grapple with how to deal with the extinguishing of the individual consciousness.

Still, even when I feel isolated, it's been good to remind myself that parts of what I am might at one point belonged to something far far away and blazing brilliant. It's a cold consolation in some ways but still a consolation in that I'm not being singled out for extinction or damned; it's just the way of the universe, and I have a brief time in the sun to be aware of myself in this guise.

I find it also helps me to realize mortality is liberating in some ways. I AM GOING TO DIE. ALL WORKS TURN TO DUST. Looked at another way, there's nothing I can do that will fuck up eternity and the universe on a large scale. There is nothing I need to "do" for everything to turn out "as it is supposed to" on the big scale. There is no goal I am supposed to fulfill in my life.

In that light, I'm free to do what I want to do and think should be done.

Where my actions matter are on the temporal, local level. My actions might not change the universe, but they do impact the quality of life and happiness of myself and the people around me. Thus, I can be concerned about those things, and I can focus on making that better. I'm not required to, but if I'm going to live, why not live with more fulfillment, and provide others with a better experience as well? There is no map to follow. You find your own way.

 

[Oprale]

Read my post here: http://intpforum.com/showpost.php?p=507226&postcount=79

In regards to a belief in a higher power or an afterlife.

My personal take on your fear is that you fear the unknown when you shouldn't. It may even be appropriate to fear what we know more than what we don't know.

As I think about it I think that makes a lot of sense. I would rather have nothing than the Abrahamic idea of afterlife.

I don't really fear the unknown in this case. If I believed there was an afterlife, I wouldn't be as anxious about death as I am now. I would probably just consider it as one more step in my little existence, and wait to see what's coming after. I read the link to your post : if there is no god - and therefore, the existence of the universe is just a hasard - , we can't be accidents because nothing is made on purpose. We are just the result of a very odd coincidence. We both think there is no god.

But after I revert to starting over again, imagining it as a blank canvas and I draw meaning to it again. Something to aspire to.

That's essentially it. Once you've settled on what it isn't you can reach for what is possible.

It was comforting reading that you understand, Urakro.
So are you ( both of you ) saying that I should concentrate on making my life as great as it can be since I can't control anything of how it works and the fact that it ends. If that is, I totally agree ; That's what I'm trying to do. However I can't stop worrying about death, no matter what I tried so far.

I've experienced something similar to this when I was younger. To me it seemed like my brain got "stuck" there. Normally people are able to realize they are going to die, but they are not "feeling" it. They know they might end up in a fatal car crash, but they don't "feel" it. If they did, they'd be having difficulty living their lives.

-

Anyways, mine automatically disappeared as my anxiety did when on SSRI. I still *know it* I just don't *feel it*. I wouldn't recommend SSRIs, though, as I suspect they are the source of a few physical problems several years after quitting.

Can you please say what are those physical problems you suspect are caused by your previous intake of SSRIs, as I think more and more about scheduling a psychologist and he will very likely put me on antidepressants and/or anxiolytics.

Maybe I'll die with a smile on my face. Hopefully, none of my friends or family will paint my face to look like the Joker's. But what will I care, I'll be dead!

Lol ! They could make you a batman themed funeral.

^ sure, that's fine on the universal scale (although if the universe contracts to a pinprick in some billions of years, or diffuses enough that there is no cohesion between any particles, there honestly won't be any meaningful imprint of one individual's existence).

THe issue is more about individual consciousness - that seems to be the scope of these worries and fears. Changing the scope really doesn't grapple with how to deal with the extinguishing of the individual consciousness.

Still, even when I feel isolated, it's been good to remind myself that parts of what I am might at one point belonged to something far far away and blazing brilliant. It's a cold consolation in some ways but still a consolation in that I'm not being singled out for extinction or damned; it's just the way of the universe, and I have a brief time in the sun to be aware of myself in this guise.

I find it also helps me to realize mortality is liberating in some ways. I AM GOING TO DIE. ALL WORKS TURN TO DUST. Looked at another way, there's nothing I can do that will fuck up eternity and the universe on a large scale. There is nothing I need to "do" for everything to turn out "as it is supposed to" on the big scale. There is no goal I am supposed to fulfill in my life.

In that light, I'm free to do what I want to do and think should be done.

Where my actions matter are on the temporal, local level. My actions might not change the universe, but they do impact the quality of life and happiness of myself and the people around me. Thus, I can be concerned about those things, and I can focus on making that better. I'm not required to, but if I'm going to live, why not live with more fulfillment, and provide others with a better experience as well? There is no map to follow. You find your own way.

Yes... I actually agree on every point. Thinking there is no god and no afterlife brings both bad and good : on one side, dying is terrifying. On the other side, we are masters of our lives. I like how positively you explained it. I'm not going to say more because I think I will just repeat what has already been said.

 

[JPS]

Fear of death is something I experience on occasion, but that's about the extent of it. I wouldn't in any way consider it "crippling" or debilitating for me, except in the sheer moment when I experience it.

There's actually a logical flaw in my own, if not in everybody else's, conception of death, which is basically this: we presume that in death we've lost everything, when really everything has lost us.

I can further explain. Kant said existence isn't a predicate, as how do we imagine a nonexistent entity? When we say we "do not exist," we are really only providing an approximation, which is that we "do not have qualities"; that, after all, is the closest we can get to a real depiction of death.

So we assume death to be some sort of loss: of family, friends, computational power, etc. In actuality, there is no "loss" involved besides the loss of the ability to lose, or gain, for that matter.

That probably sounded incoherent, but what I was hoping to do with this post was provide some degree of logical consolation.

 

[al.otakupunk]

I'm not sure how much it will help, but there's a quote I read in a fanfic which I actually agree with:
"Dying is like being so tired that all you can think about is sleeping, but no one will let you sleep. And then someone takes your hand and tells you it's okay to go to sleep."
That's how I've always felt about it. I used to be terrified of death as a kid, but then when I got into about high school, I realized it would just be like one of those nights where you go to sleep and don't dream anything. No thought, no feeling, just complete peace. It's easier to think about when you realize how peaceful it would actually be.
As far as the whole meaninglessness thing, I just don't obsess over the endgame. The fact is, we're here, we have a certain amount of time to do as much or as little as we want, and then we're done. We might as well use it to do as we like; write a great story that you'll look back on with pride. Work up to the end rather than until the end, if that makes any sense.

Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk

 

[Minuend]

Can you please say what are those physical problems you suspect are caused by your previous intake of SSRIs, as I think more and more about scheduling a psychologist and he will very likely put me on antidepressants and/or anxiolytics.

I started getting something similar to gastroparesis which I still have some 2-3 years after stopping taking them. I've also been having fluctuating thyroid levels and almost constant fatigue (fatigue is lessening these days, but there are still days when I wake up exhausted). Fatigue comes with reduced concentration, motivation and apathy where I don't feel sad, but my ability to feel good is also reduced. I find things less funny, I find things less interesting. And even though I'm not depressed (no thanks to pills or therapists), people tend to want to blame depression on these issues.

I find therapists and doctors tend to disagree SSRI can cause problems like these, or even problems at all it seems, even though they have no idea what might be causing it. They are very quick to shrug off such concerns. I did come across a forum post elsewhere where a lady had similar problems with thyroid and stomach after SSRI use.

Well, there's always a possibility it just happened coincidentally at the same time.

 

[bvanevery]

Every once in awhile, I suffer the sheer terror of existence and of death. It usually only lasts for a little while, a few minutes at best. A thread like this can definitely trigger it. I think the best defense is to push it out of one's mind.

How to keep it out of one's mind? I think, by having things you're doing in your life, that you think are important and meaningful. And that you actually see some progress on, so that you don't feel you're on a treadmill of hopelessness. If you're actually living, you will probably not spend much time worrying about dying.

What is meaningful? We can make our own choice in that. The grasping hand of Nihilism comes at me every once in awhile, but mostly I have better answers than that. Creative purposes, family relationships, and my dog seem to be the biggest buoys against purposelessness. Sure the universe doesn't care and will seek to erase me and everything I do, but why should I go quietly or be complacent about it? I give middle finger to the uncaring universe. I do what I think has value.