Reasoning with an ISTJ

[nearfantastica]

ISTJs are everywhere. They are also notoriously (in my experience) close-minded and resolute when it comes to what they think is right. That whole Te-Fi thing is an INTPs worst nightmare.

How would you go about appealing to their logic? It's harder than you would think, considering they're not feelers...

 

[Brontosaurie]

a potential audience of morons is very important to the ISTJ conformist.

the ISTJ wants nothing more than to be the sensible pillar amongst fools. present your reasoning in such a way that even their inferior crippled Ne can deduce its smartass potential. usually this means simplifying and specifying to a point where it no longer appeals to you. good luck getting an ISTJ interested in stuff beyond immediate application or history book wanking.

T dominant? wot. they're Si dominant. power structure cocksucker dominants.

 

[nearfantastica]

I meant that they're not feelers, haha. I should've been more clear.

 

[Cherry Cola]

don't appeal to them, manipulate them.

If you really want to make them understand something you have to a
start out specific and then gradually go general. Start out with some scenario in which the ISTJ is acting the pillar and the people are fools. Talk about that til you get them on fire, then start going abstract and general in your dissing of people and praising of the pillar, since they're on your boat by then, they won't hop of.

Do this a few times until they've learned some abstract reasoning and associate it with being angry at the world and feeling good about themselves. Then you can start to speak with them in abstract without their paranoid ne reflex protesting.

But why the fuck bother? Let the ISTJs remain the idiots they are. For all their certainty and resolute stance towards everything as if though were the world perfect bar it's denizens continually violating it with foolishness and lazyness, the ISTJ remains the type with the least holistic grasp of things. They are mere reflections of the social context of their upbringing. Or well, not quite reflections, all social contexts are in a state of flux, the ISTJ abhors the fluxative, so they gradually form something of a snapshot, contained within are all ideals and all ideas, frozen in time, carved in the stone. The primary ritual already performed, a conclusion reached dictating action, our place in the cosmos found in a process of repitition, no lines allowed which do not form circles.

Screw the ISTJ.

 

[Solitaire U.]

^ Oh for fuck's sake.

Really bad idea, griefing on stereotypes, but what the hell...grief away.

 

[Brontosaurie]

I meant that they're not feelers, haha. I should've been more clear.

it was pretty clear that's what you meant. but, given such a perfect opportunity, i couldn't abstain from some ISTJ name calling .

 

[nearfantastica]

You're making me feel like this is a hopeless cause, which is a bit miserable to accept. My mother's an ISTJ, you see.

 

[Brontosaurie]

types are just fictional anyway

 

[Cherry Cola]

If it's your mother then you can do it, just let it take all the time it needs to, I'm potentially talking years here, though it depends on her level of rigidness and intelligence as well as how often you talk to each other.

 

[Solitaire U.]

You're making me feel like this is a hopeless cause, which is a bit miserable to accept. My mother's an ISTJ, you see.

That's totally different. Griefing on moms is completely acceptable.

So are you giving us permission to grief on your mother?

 

[mindtheplatonicgap]

They are mere reflections of the social context of their upbringing. Or well, not quite reflections, all social contexts are in a state of flux, the ISTJ abhors the fluxative, so they gradually form something of a snapshot, contained within are all ideals and all ideas, frozen in time, carved in the stone. The primary ritual already performed, a conclusion reached dictating action, our place in the cosmos found in a process of repitition, no lines allowed which do not form circles.

Beautiful.

 

[JimJambones]

Hey, I like ISTJs! The sound of their voice is soothing as I pretend I'm listening, while thinking about something else.

 

[Pinion]

Context? My immediate suggestion is "facts" and "leave the emotions out of it or we won't trust you", but I get the impression you've been trying and it isn't working. Compromise might be the only outcome.

 

[Hadoblado]

Speak to their values. I'm good friends with one ISTJ, and among other things, he values reliability. I be reliable. He respects our differences so long as they don't impact on him.

That said, I live with another, and while things are polite, and our beliefs are similar, there is no mutual respect nor striving for such.

 

[Beat Mango]

They don't have logic. They certainly don't have imagination to apply possible alternative modes of thought, as would be required in reasoning.

I agree with Hablo. Their whole life is confirming to fixed values, so appeal to those.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Having an ISTJ boss sucks dick, is it a general tendency with the type to get angry whenever something goes wrong even if it's really not anyone's fault in particular and just a case of shit happens?

 

[redbaron]

ISTJ + reasoning = oxymoron.

 

[Perfectly Normal Beast]

For all their certainty and resolute stance towards everything as if though were the world perfect bar it's denizens continually violating it with foolishness and lazyness, the ISTJ remains the type with the least holistic grasp of things. They are mere reflections of the social context of their upbringing. Or well, not quite reflections, all social contexts are in a state of flux, the ISTJ abhors the fluxative, so they gradually form something of a snapshot, contained within are all ideals and all ideas, frozen in time, carved in the stone. The primary ritual already performed, a conclusion reached dictating action, our place in the cosmos found in a process of repitition, no lines allowed which do not form circles.

Wow, thanks for this - suddenly everything is clear - i was deposited in a community of ISTJs at birth. It all makes sense now.

Seriously though, this has helped me 'type' a few people.

What's the address to send them for type reasignment?

(Ha ha and the forums! I lurked on one featuring a rant thread which included complaints about people who cut in line and people with too many items in their basket for the express check-out )

 

[Architect]

I've found it useful to have an ISTJ around. "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer" kind of thing. ISTJ's seem to be the polar work opposite from the INTP, which makes them good teachers.

I sit next to an ISTJ, and man can that guy work. He is voracious, if you slack or fall behind on your stuff he'll come in and pick it up, totally relentless. And I can slack pretty bad sometimes, it's good to get the prod. The other approach I could have is to be annoyed, so instead I study it. Why does he work so hard? Much harder than me certainly. While I'll be sitting back cogitating on the problem he'll already have it solved. Does that mean I want to become an ISTJ? No, but I am using it to learn how to make more effective use of my time.

For example, I'm considering plowing through my work right away, which then lets me have more time for cogitation later. Pay my dues up front kind of thing.

 

[Brontosaurie]

ISTJ + reasoning = oxymoron.

your oxymoron call-outs are delightful.

 

[Jennywocky]

I actually did meet an ISTJ who I've found to be profound and thoughtful. Of course, it happened just a year or two ago, and it stuck out because we didn't get stuck in the same head-butting arguments I tend to get stuck in with other ISTJs, but hey.... This guy, however, has been through a lot in his life, and those experiences made him far more open and questioning.

I have a few ISTJs in my family and/or related in some way. My ex-FIL is an ISTJ, a nuclear boiler engineer out of all things, and he's totally the engineer. Any home project is a reason to excruciatingly measure things to the smallest increment possible, but he does great, careful, rigorous work. I could also discuss things rationally with him but had to be careful when making inductive arguments; he doesn't respect those as much, and I'd have to work them as more "what if?" possibilities to sit and bounce around in his head, versus actual debating with him (which is something I avoided, and actually something he avoids too... he doesn't like confrontations). But to his credit, he is also one of the nicest people -- man or women -- that I know, and would do anything to help anyone with a legitimate need, even if he also doesn't suffer fools gladly and his kindness stops where he feels someone was irresponsible or emotionally frivolous.

My BIL is also an ISTJ -- formerly a lawyer, now a church planter -- and that's rather why we do not talk and why I don't really talk to my ISFJ sister much either. They're both very religious and he has made her even moreso, so her natural ISFJ kindness that could soften her religious beliefs up seems to have gotten harder / less cushiony. He's not outspoken and not in your face, but I just find him impossible to talk to because there's no point in discussing alternate views; he's not open to change or enlightenment, he's already figured out the world (christian conservative Repub) and now clings to that understanding tenaciously. My kids used to like visiting them but in their teens stopped, and told me they typically feel judged even when my BIL and sister don't say anything, there's just an attitude/aura of judgment there.

Anyway, probably the hallmark of that ISTJ is that tenacious clinging to belief, which gets expressed through concrete practicals. If people want to get all MBTI about it, the shorthand would be Si perception of the world defended by Te. The thing, though, with ISJ's is that I've found them to doggedly defend their stance (and put forth their stance, if pushed), but if you manage to make a good case, suddenly one day they might just change their view as if it were always different and drop the old view, without any indication in the meanwhile they were considering a change. That drove me crazy at times.

 

[Cavallier]

I actually did meet an ISTJ who I've found to be profound and thoughtful. Of course, it happened just a year or two ago, and it stuck out because we didn't get stuck in the same head-butting arguments I tend to get stuck in with other ISTJs, but hey.... This guy, however, has been through a lot in his life, and those experiences made him far more open and questioning.

Thank you. I see a lot of ISTJ hate around here and I appreciate that someone other than myself knows of an ISTJ that isn't so bad.

My closest friend for the last 10 years is an ISTJ. She grew up in an abusive home and she had to grow up a little faster than most kids in our culture. That may have created in her a willingness to be open to people outside of her family that ISTJs generally tend to ignore. She can be lazy at times and does tend to blindly follow whatever social traditions she comes across. However, I've found that if I point out the lack of logic behind a social tradition she can be swayed to changed her position. I think that 10 years of me doing this to her has caused her to be a more open minded person. I also think that since she counts me as close as family that she values my opinion greatly and is willing to listen to me. When she sees the merit in something she will work tirelessly on it long after I have given up on working on that same thing.

I find that if you can find a way of connecting to an ISTJ (often a common interest is enough) they will let you into their very private circle and be more flexible in their interactions with you. They do martial all their thoughts, abilities, and knowledge behind an argument. They build a wall out of their argument/stance and you have to circumvent that wall before you can get them to see your point of view. I agree it is frustrating but I also bet that it is frustrating for people to deal with an INTP who comes off as cold and removed at the best of times.

 

[Jennywocky]

Thank you. I see a lot of ISTJ hate around here and I appreciate that someone other than myself knows of an ISTJ that isn't so bad.

Yes, and I'll go far enough to say that, if he wasn't involved with someone else, and despite him identifying as ISJ (a type I swore never to get involved with again)... well, I find him really attractive and would be willing to see where things went. There are very few guys that hit me that way.

My closest friend for the last 10 years is an ISTJ. She grew up in an abusive home and she had to grow up a little faster than most kids in our culture. That may have created in her a willingness to be open to people outside of her family that ISTJs generally tend to ignore. She can be lazy at times and does tend to blindly follow whatever social traditions she comes across. However, I've found that if I point out the lack of logic behind a social tradition she can be swayed to changed her position. I think that 10 years of me doing this to her has caused her to be a more open minded person. I also think that since she counts me as close as family that she values my opinion greatly and is willing to listen to me. When she sees the merit in something she will work tirelessly on it long after I have given up on working on that same thing.

I have always been impressed by ISJ diligence and perseverence. I know I give up (or rather "look for ways around") things much sooner.

I find that if you can find a way of connecting to an ISTJ (often a common interest is enough) they will let you into their very private circle and be more flexible in their interactions with you. They do martial all their thoughts, abilities, and knowledge behind an argument. They build a wall out of their argument/stance and you have to circumvent that wall before you can get them to see your point of view. I agree it is frustrating but I also bet that it is frustrating for people to deal with an INTP who comes off as cold and removed at the best of times.

I think that's part of it. If you can get "screened" and get access, and they kind of understand you or where you are coming from and your intentions and what similarities you have, then it makes them more open.

INTPs have different faults/quirks/foibles.

 

[rushgirl2112]

I was married to an ISTJ. (Note the past tense.)

Actually, he's a really great guy. We were friends for years prior to getting involved, and I always thought he was entertaining, funny and witty, and yeah, reliable. Very devoted and loyal, very serious work ethic, very committed to his children.

We just spoke totally different languages. And while he's reasonably intelligent, he was just not able to keep me intellectually stimulated. He was interested in my existing ideas for the most part - unless in the midst of an argument - but he never really offered or inspired any that I found compelling. Damn, it makes me feel bad to say that, because it's not like he's boring or anything like that. He has great ideas, but they're generally only practical ones. Very rooted in the physical world.

Anyway, probably the hallmark of that ISTJ is that tenacious clinging to belief, which gets expressed through concrete practicals. If people want to get all MBTI about it, the shorthand would be Si perception of the world defended by Te. The thing, though, with ISJ's is that I've found them to doggedly defend their stance (and put forth their stance, if pushed), but if you manage to make a good case, suddenly one day they might just change their view as if it were always different and drop the old view, without any indication in the meanwhile they were considering a change. That drove me crazy at times.

DEAR GOD YES. That happened to me all the time. We'd have some really bad arguments, he would cling to his view tenaciously even in the face of solid, very basic logic, and then maybe a couple of days later, he'd completely turn around. But that only tended to piss me off more, because I never understood WHY we had to go through all that arguing. If he had simply considered the perfectly logical argument in the first place, we wouldn't have had to go through that!

He's also one of those people who can't see the difference between debating and fighting. It's all fighting to him. I can be cool and calm in the face of disagreement longer than a lot of people can, and indefinitely as long as the other party is being objective and logical as well. But when logic is completely disregarded and especially if it's treated as an attack, I can lose it. And once you get me pissed off, I can get REALLY pissed off. Of course, eventually the argument would end, and he would forget all about it, but I would stew about it for days.

So yeah, we pushed each other's buttons. I absolutely hate being pushed to the point of having these intense emotional reactions. I want to stay calm and cool and discuss things, but with enough pressure, I can erupt. So that always made me feel bad about myself.

Not really his fault, not really mine . . . we just weren't that compatible in a romantic relationship. Overall, he's a reasonable person as long as you don't challenge his beliefs too much. He's also an awesome father. I make sure he has a fair share of time with the kids and don't badmouth him, which he appreciates. He's devoted enough to them that he'll even offer - and sometimes insist on giving me - extra money beyond the amount of child support he pays. The divorce was not his idea and he very much did not want it, but he was never vindictive or nasty about it. I think it's helped that I'm the sort of person who believes in fairness, so I never tried to take anything away from him that he was entitled to.

So we're actually able to be very civil and even friendly with each other, doing favors and being flexible about schedules and such. We do still have our arguments, but I'm hoping that someday we might be able to go back to being true friends (it's only been three years, so we need more time for that).

 

[Grayman]

They are usually right, as long as you are talking about simple facts. They are pretty cut and dry but are incapable of conceptual arguments. They seem to think their conceptual view is the only one and has always been the correct one. There is no adapting. I get the sense that I am irritating to them, even when I am accepting of their belief system, but they try and hide it. I think to reason with them, you have to be straight forward and factual and as simple as possible. For an INTP that is more difficult than it sounds.

I think maybe cater to their Si. Validate what they know and give support for what they know so that they will open up and feel understood before you try and throw something new at them.