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Of God & Science

Cognisant

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I think there has been a schism between Christianity and Science, like how there was a schism between the Catholics and Protestants during the Reformation, but this didn't happen all at one, rather there's been a series of scientific discoveries, that have conflicted with religious doctrine, which have driven a wedge between Christianity and Science.

The first big one was Copernicus' "De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium" (On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres) which refuted geocentrism (that Earth is the center of the solar system and possibly the universe) and instead asserted that the Sun is the center of our solar system and that all the planets revolve around it. Galileo's championing of Copernican heliocentrism was met with opposition from within the Catholic Church and the matter was investigated by the Roman Inquisition in 1615, which concluded that his opinions contradicted accepted Biblical interpretations. The matter remains an embarrassment to the Catholic Church to this day as heliocentrism has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt and their treatment of Galileo remains a persistent stain on their reputation, despite efforts at historical revisionism polishing.

Now I ask you, does this matter, was Christianity proven false by heliocentrism?
If you are a Christian does the refutation of geocentrism challenge your faith?
Of course not, and that proves that it was never a matter that concerned the legitimacy of Christianity, rather (and this is the important part) the Catholic Church made an issue of it because it challenged their anthropocentric sensibilities.

It offended them, and this offense stems from hubris, from their pride.
They pridefully believed that Earth must be the center of the universe, because Man must be the center of the universe, because God is the metaphorical center of the universe and as servants of God that must put them at least God-adjacent.

The reality was humbling, and I think there's an important lesson in that.
The next wedge between Christianity and Science was of course Charles Darwin and his controversial theory of natural selection, so controversial in fact that for many it remains a dividing line between Christians and non-Christians. Again I think this is a matter of anthropocentric sensibilities born of hubris, that Christians find it offensive that Man, who was supposedly created in the image of God, evolved from apes which themselves evolved from lesser things going all the way back to the first vertebrate worms crawling in the primordial mud.

Personally I don't find that offensive, I find that amazing, I see it not as a tainted lineage but rather a march of progress worth celebrating, I like to imagine those worms would be incredibly proud to see what their descendants have become and I genuinely hope that we too will be the forebears of entities greater than we can ever imagine.

I would like to bring that joy of curiosity to Christianity and the humility to accept that I don't know God, but I'm on the path of discovery and every path of Discovery is ultimately a path to God, because it all came from the same place.

In this way we can heal the schism and the pursuit of knowledge and technological advancement becomes the study of the divine.

Likewise I think the academic/scientific world is hurting for a lack of spiritual grounding, just as Christianity needs Science to keep them congruent with reality and avoid the pitfalls of dogmatism, likewise Science needs an appreciation for the unknown. Not as a god-of-the gaps "urr you don't know everything" sentiment, rather it is a detriment to the scientific method and damaging to the integrity of Science to lose sight of how much we don't know. What I'm saying is that the limits of our knowledge and capabilities should be celebrated by Christianity as opportunities to further the pursuit of knowing God. (which has the benefit of keeping the academic/scientific world from becoming arrogant and thinking they know everything)

That if a scientist should ever fear that we may someday know everything there is to be known a priest can reassure them that the path of discovery is the pursuit of knowledge of God and God is infinite, he will always have more to teach us.
 

Cognisant

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Before there were hospitals and universities there were monasteries which served the same purpose.

Now I think the church struggles to have any purpose, even as arbiters of morality they tend to echo the public moral consensus rather than play an active role in shaping it.

Take AI for example, it's arguably impossible to develop a moral framework around it without having a deep understanding of, you gotta kbow what you're talking about basically.

If AI research and development happened in a monastery the researchers would be obligated to explain what they're doing and how it benifits mankind to their hosts, thus enabling those practitioners of the faith to be on the cutting edge of discussions about the implications and ethical ramifications.

Imo science and religion should have the benefit of mankind as a common unifying cause.

Currently religion seems parasitic, it thrives on human misery as it is the opiate of the masses,because it doesn't have much to practically offer. Then again an athiest has nothing to offer a man on his deathbed.
 

Old Things

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The presupposition is incorrect that the Catholic Church condemned Galileo's scientific findings. That is a myth. First of all, Galileo was a committed Christian, just as Newton was, and many other fathers of modern science. The thing is, many atheists and secular societies, with the aim of being "neutral," actually have an anti-Christian bias.

 

dr froyd

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The presupposition is incorrect that the Catholic Church condemned Galileo's scientific findings. That is a myth.
that's new.. so the whole inquisition thing is a made-up story?

and Giordano Bruno was not executed by the inquisition for defending copernican heliocentricism?
 

Old Things

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The presupposition is incorrect that the Catholic Church condemned Galileo's scientific findings. That is a myth.
that's new.. so the whole inquisition thing is a made-up story?

and Giordano Bruno was not executed by the inquisition for defending copernican heliocentricism?

Please watch the video I linked.
 

dr froyd

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Please watch the video I linked.
i dont really have 2.5 hours to kill but i read through an article from that guy (a self-proclaimed historian of science)


where he essentially just says that galileo is overrated as a scientst, not much more than that. I will guess that the interview was equally lacking in substance
 

Puffy

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Christianity isn’t the only spiritual or religious path. I’m only saying if you’re looking to reconcile spirituality and science Christianity isn’t by necessity the only place you have to explore that.
 

Cognisant

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It hasn't decended as far down the path of barbarism as Islam, but you may be right.
 

Hadoblado

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In 1616, the Church warned Galileo not to teach or defend heliocentrism. Despite this, he published his "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems" in 1632, which led to his trial by the Roman Inquisition in 1633. He was found "vehemently suspect of heresy" and was forced to recant his views. Galileo spent the rest of his life under house arrest.

What about this is wrong/misleading? @Old Things

Re: thread
I think science has a lot of flaws and I think it could be argued that these flaws are related to the lack of central ideology. It's going to get worse and will probably never get better. The incentive structure is mangled and this is something that a religious belief could purge and unify.

The difficulty is that religious beliefs for the most part are inflexible, and science is a shifting field both over time and between areas of study.

I don't really see room for Christianity in science. I think most of Christianity's forays into science are attempts to overturn findings or theories in defense of religious beliefs. I don't think Christianity has anything to offer.

But I can see some potential there. If you had some sort of offshoot which put evidence directly from creation first, ahead of prophets and books and whatever else, then codified the pursuit of understanding creation including epistemic principles themselves as the highest calling... I can see that outperforming a secular science.
 

The Grey Man

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This is such a rich and interesting topic that I wish I had more time to respond. For now I will just say that Cardinal Bellarmine's misgivings about heliocentrism—that it seems to be contrary to the sense of Sacred Scripture according to the unanimous interpretation of the Church Fathers, that it is one thing to say that it is more mathematically economical, given the astronomical data, to assume that the earth moves rather than the sun and quite another to say that the earth does, in fact, move—were valid in 1615 and remain valid now.
 

Old Things

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I don't really see room for Christianity in science. I think most of Christianity's forays into science are attempts to overturn findings or theories in defense of religious beliefs. I don't think Christianity has anything to offer.

This is honestly a 2005 talking point from the New Atheists. It's not true.
 

Hadoblado

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Old Things, I @ED you to address a point you made, then you chose something else I said and dismissed it without reason.

Is it a talking point or is there meaningful contention between Christianity and scientific theories? Christians never reject:
  • climate change
  • big bang
  • old Earth
  • evolution
Because it contradicts their interpretation of religious doctrine? Are you absolutely sure?
 

Old Things

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Old Things, I @ED you to address a point you made, then you chose something else I said and dismissed it without reason.

Is it a talking point or is there meaningful contention between Christianity and scientific theories? Christians never reject:
  • climate change
  • big bang
  • old Earth
  • evolution
Because it contradicts their interpretation of religious doctrine? Are you absolutely sure?

It's honestly laughable what you are saying. I know tons of Christians who affirm all of those.

In fact, the Big Bang originated from a Catholic priest, who first described the big bang. "The Big Bang" was used as a tongue-in-cheek comment that stuck because of how embarrassing it was for the person saying it.

Do some Christians take things too far? Yes, so what? You literally have atheists who are Jesus Mythecists, so it's not like it is native to Christians to have weird ideas.

 

Cognisant

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Alright let's put the treatment of Galileo aside, I'm willing to cede that point if it gets us somewhere constructive.

This is not a bash-Christianity thread, I know it comes off that way but I genuinely want to see a restoration of Christinaity's position at the pinnacle of human endeavor.

Back to when monasteries were places of learning, medicine and human advancement.
 

dr froyd

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islam btw is an interesting subject in the context, because at time when christian europe was the backwaters of the world in the 800s, the islamic middle east was the scientific and intellectual center of the world. Algebra, algorithms, everything that starts with "al" came from there.

why? because they practiced a form of religion where faith was secondary to rational thought - mu'tazilism. That was reversed after the disintegration of the abbasids, the mongol invasion etc etc, and science became subservient to faith - science was OK only insofar it supported literal interpretations of the quran. That is why to this day the muslim world is centuries behind the west in terms of scientific progress.

so, people who like to point to the fact that many european scientists were christians have to keep in mind that you can tell the same story about islam. But their scientific progress happened not because they were muslims but because they favored rational thought, were non-pious, and were against religious dogmatism.
 

The Grey Man

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@Cognisant I'll concede that a lot of Catholics, especially traditional Catholics, have an unfortunate tendency to think that the rejection of anything new is automatically 'based and red-pilled.' Since God is the Author of both reason and faith, and truth doesn't contradict truth, Catholics should accept all of modern science that is really science, knowledge, and not just opinion.
 

Old Things

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Alright let's put the treatment of Galileo aside, I'm willing to cede that point if it gets us somewhere constructive.

This is not a bash-Christianity thread, I know it comes off that way but I genuinely want to see a restoration of Christinaity's position at the pinnacle of human endeavor.

Back to when monasteries were places of learning, medicine and human advancement.

And here I thought you put me on ignore...

I don't really have much to say about this or @dr froyd's comment. Not something I know a lot about.

Froyd is right that algebra, for example, came from the Muslims. Beyond that, I don't know a whole lot. And I know you can still find monasteries and such all around the world. I remember this episode from 60 Minutes. It was really interesting, but I don't remember much of it. Let me see if I can find it.

Don't know if this is the right one or not...

 

Old Things

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fluffy

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Science in the context of God?

Often I study but I do not believe I can learn everything I need to by myself. I have seen complex things that requires collaboration and high aptitude. So that's basically my point of view. Not based on appeal to authority but that some things are hard intellectually which others can process better.

The simple fact is that I cannot learn fast enough to get my projects done should mean those who can would do science better than me.

With God though I think that is a personal matter because in my experience God doesn't do magic tricks. If I need something important spiritually he is there otherwise I must do it by myself.

I believe what people during the enlightenment came to think. That the world was created by God but we must study it to figure it out. The purpose is to know things as we do because God gave us brains to do so. But that is also personal because everyone can do science to the extent they can. We don't need to fight people in the name of science. People are allowed to disagree and or get with others to learn.
 

Old Things

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And here I thought you put me on ignore...
Then who would I discuss theology with? :D

LOL. TBH, @The Grey Man would also be a great guy to talk about theology with.
Nah blocked him, too many bible quotes, that's not debate that's just dogmatism.

Are you joking? I can't tell if you are joking or if you are being serious.

Seriously, if you are serious, I wonder how I am different?
 

Puffy

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You’re going to struggle becoming a Christian without the Bible, Cog :dolphin:
 
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