Manipulation and Free Beer

[ifelloverboard]

It seems "being manipulative" is a trait that gets thrown my way from time to time. The odd thing is I can't just manipulate at random. I've tried and had people want to get back at someone and ask for my assistance in manipulating this person. I try but I can't find the motivation to see with clarity.

Now, say the problem is mine. I want to achieve X and will just somehow know how to achieve that goal. Whether X be a person such as a female, a material object or a job I will continue on with pristine clarity on how to achieve my objective and rarely does it not work. It is in those situations that I appear as manipulative.

Not to get into semantics too much but everyone technically "manipulates" such as changing answers or lying during a job interview. I'm not talking about that surface manipulation. I mean a complete disregard for laws, other people's feelings and any other arbitrary notions to achieve whatever it is your mind wants to achieve.

To come to an end on this, my question is, does anyone else do this and lack the ability to turn it on and off but just naturally does it when you get that tick in your mind that you want something?

 

[Tunesimah]

I must say I'm not much like you... when you say everyone technically 'manipulates'... I'm not one to be included in everyone.

I don't even see it as a switch to turn on... it just doesn't cross my mind as a means of social interaction.

I have a friend who is like you, he sets out to do something and he like subconsciously forgets rules and any and all social considerations. He can get quite competitive... and it's bizarre because we'll often inform him of these breaches... and he's sort of dumbfounded... his desire to win can cloud the rest of his judgement that we have seen in him in other situations. maybe that's like you... it's hard to tell.

To manipulate, you need a goal... and goals are much too hard. Exploring, creating and understanding are better pursuits for me... and manipulating doesn't do much there...

 

[ifelloverboard]

So you've never felt the need to impress someone or hold back certain information when you first meet someone?

 

[Tunesimah]

The need to impress someone... definitely no. I mean I can feel the gravity of the situation, the make or break of an interview lets say... but I never think that manipulation is the way to do it. I just present myself and my views... if they aren't good enough... then so be it.

I also tend to be open to people to a fault, but I'm also a private person... so if a conversation lends itself in a direction I may not talk about a subject the company is talking about. But if someone asks me a question, I put forth a lot of effort into conveying the truth... even if the truth is something I don't personally enjoy... or feel it hurts me in some way.

At my worst, I may do a bit of lying by omission... but it's not out of manipulation... at least I don't think it is. And it's not for any personal gain... It just takes too much effort to explain myself to others... or they may misconstrue what I say. It's actually most often in the pursuit of truth that I'll do it... if I feel that someone will not get what I am saying and completely miss the mark and then have a false idea in their head... I won't even attempt to explain it since it is futile.

Is this manipulation? I haven't thought that it is... but maybe I'm wrong...

 

[Trebuchet]

I was very manipulative in high school. I could get people to do what I wanted. Then I decided that what I was doing was wrong, and I stopped.

You use the term manipulate to mean any attempt at influencing another person. If you reassure someone who is scared, yell at someone who angers you, or ask someone for help, you are certainly trying to change their behavior or emotions, and that is what you say is technically manipulating people. Sure it is, but if you are being accused of it, people are assuming you understand the negative connotation that word usually carries, and saying that technically everyone does it is just playing word games.

If you use people's hopes, fears, and pride to make them do something, for your benefit, without explaining your motives, then that is manipulative.

If you try to be transparent in your motives, so that people know what you want from them and why, then people will probably not accuse you of being manipulative, even if you have great success controlling them.

 

[Astridian]

First off, I will try to answer your question in a way that you will find somewhat satisfactory. I wrote this paragraph last, because the answer to this question is not something I find particularly exciting, but here it is nonetheless. Yes, I've been manipulative on occasion, and this usually manifests itself as playing along with the schemes of people who believe they're manipulating me. It is a sort of twisted pleasure I get when I know something that someone else doesn't. I never feel the urge to reveal to them that they are discovered; their pride blinds them to the truth, which is justice enough for me. As to whether I can turn it on or off, yes, I can. To me, manipulation is all about intent; it is impossible to be manipulative unintentionally. It is, however, possible to seem manipulative unintentionally.

I don't find myself very manipulative mostly because I rarely approach social situations with a particular goal in mind. To me, manipulation is all about effectively treating another person as a means to an end, rather than as an end in themselves. To put it another way, it is ignoring the intrinsic good of another person and fixating on their instrumental worth to your plans.

I suppose I could have become a manipulative person had I developed an interest in developing a greater understanding social interactions through experimentation. However, I do not have the mind of a scientist, and I rarely enter into my quests for knowledge with a goal in mind.

For the most part, I dislike marketing, the current dating scene, the media, and proselytizing for the very reason that these arenas tend to be manipulative in nature. The focus is usually on getting people to perform a particular action or join some social group, rather than the subject matter they are supposedly based on. My dislike is only a mild dislike though, compared to some who share my views on manipulation. To me, it is an immature waste of time and energy brought about by hubris. To those who feel particularly hurt by it, it can come to represent the vilest, ugliest aspect of humanity.

I can't bring myself to affirm or deny the claim that everyone manipulates, though, to me, that claim is just a red herring. To me, the real question is whether or not "being manipulative" is justifiable behavior. Even if it were true that everyone did it, that does not mean everyone must do it, or that it is right to do it.

All this said, Iago from Shakespeare's Othello is my favorite villain. He is a snake. I admire his cleverness. I admire his power. I sympathize with the desire to bring ruin to your enemies via any means. When I find myself angry I tend to fantasize about things Iago would do in my shoes. However, he is not a hero. His plans, though well-executed, were faulty in their very foundations. For all his intelligence and power, Iago lacks wisdom, and for this reason, I pity him.

 

[Dormouse]

Upon writing this I realized I can be a very manipulative person at times. Oh dear.

I think I can agree with the statement that everyone manipulates, to a certain extent. Everybody attempts, at some time or another, to alter an outsiders perception of them. Or bends the truth in order to reach a goal. I think what really makes it exceptional is when it`s done consciously.

Most of the time people manipulate without thinking it through, I believe, it's a social instinct more than anything.
I generally avoid manipulating someone in order to reach a goal ( for example, I HATE being asked to sell stuff ) but I am rather guilty of purposefully affecting the way people think of me.
And, god forbid, when I actually DO latch onto a goal, I can be kinda heartless.
So yeah, I guess the presence of motivation would be my on/off switch.

 

[ifelloverboard]

I was traveling with a friend last weekend and I want to share what happened while we were at the hotel.

We were drunk and back at the hotel and arguing as we tend to do about various political topics and I found him getting really really upset. I didn't stop, I kept going and going. I went out and smoked, came back in and apologized to him for continuing on as I did.

Why did I apologize? Outside when I was smoking I remembered that he offered to pay for gas in the morning and I didn't want to piss him off so much that he would retract on that offer. I didn't think about this until after the fact. I just kind of did it.

This is how all my social interactions are. Sure I'm an INTP but there's more to it than that which is why I'm here. Thanks for your responses.

 

[BoredRestless]

It happens from time to time for everybody. All babies do this subconsciously with crying. Or even a child throwing a tantrum to get what they will. Even better example, the Sun's gravity pulling the planets around in a senseless circular motion.
What's helpful is not to judge yourself or others. You're not responsible for the emotional/rational response they exhibit in reply to your actions. People do as they will. If they did not create an exit/supportive strategy and got crushed under your shoveling of debris, who is to say you are the sole person to blame? As one intp to another, scrutinizing and mulling over every move to get checkmate, so to say, can drive one crazy, esp. an intp.

What I'm getting at is:
Free will, brotha!