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Functions responsible for independence

Ex-User (8886)

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Leader is someone who tell others what to do, because they don't know what to do, they don't want, or in group there is many ideas, and there is need for leader who choose one.
Leader is more important than others.

An army of sheep led by a lion is better than an army of lions led by a sheep.

Army without one soldier is still strong. Army without commander can't even be considered as an army.

So your definition @Reluctantly is a democratic crap.
 

Variform

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"The community stagnates without the impulse of the individual. The impulse dies away without the sympathy of the community." William James

Lauding of independence is a vacuous judgement. Independence and interdependence are a whole. I know I'm not addressing your question of which functions are most responsible for independence but you seem to elevate independence over dependence.

A very good point. An independent person creates a vacuum whereas a dependent person fills that vacuum. It is a tug of war situation.

An independent person will show patterns of behavior that are self-directed (and that creates room) and a dependent person will bounce off of the behavioral patterns of the independents.

So that an independent person will plan a course of action, based on his own perceptions and based on the information he gathered and go out in the world and act on it. This behavior, this patterns is perceived by a dependent person who can follow that pattern to fill the void.

We see this in flocks of birds as well. There are birds that plot a course flying around in the sky. And their wake creates an opportunity for a bird behind it to follow it and save energy. They benefit from the turbulence. That is how a gold ball worlds too, were it not dotted with indentations it would not fly as far.

This is a sort of MBTI flow dynamics.
 

Words

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I'm going to disagree with half of that. The Ni must have been gotten from somewhere. I propose it was prompted by some form of original content in the external world, be it Fe or Te.

Then we are talking about Fe or Te, not Ni. The OP asks which function is most independent, not which type. I'm not arguing for INTJ. I'm arguing for Ni. In my experience and judgment, most Ni doms are very social, perhaps more than the Ti doms I know. But if we're talking about "extreme" independence, there is no one else more representative than Ni doms with extreme Ni.


We, on the outside just don't know what it is. The INTJ does not tell you and their lack of Fe doesn't help any. The INFJ doesn't tell you either and their lack of Te doesn't help any not that the INTP would pick up on that anyway. The INFJ does have Ti but the INTP has to struggle with that having poor Fe.

Humans always require experience. The key is to compare. Which humans/cognitive function require the least experience or the least data to arrive at an idea? Which is the least constrained/dependent on the external world?

The isolation comes when the Ni seen in the external world by the INxJ is not seen by the rest of society. Sometimes the Ni of the INxJ is bought by society in spite of lack of proof. Then you have mass movements.
Again, social disapproval is not a prerequisite for isolation. Some people just don't give a shit. They just walk their own way without giving a shit. Ni over Te/Fe. Personal Ideas over People/Society.
 

Ex-User (8886)

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Then we are talking about Fe or Te, not Ni. The OP asks which function is most independent, not which type. I'm not arguing for INTJ. I'm arguing for Ni. In my experience and judgment, most Ni doms are very social, perhaps more than the Ti doms I know. But if we're talking about "extreme" independence, there is no one else more representative than Ni doms with extreme Ni.




Humans always require experience. The key is to compare. Which humans/cognitive function require the least experience or the least data to arrive at an idea? Which is the least constrained/dependent on the external world?


Again, social disapproval is not a prerequisite for isolation. Some people just don't give a shit. They just walk their own way without giving a shit. Ni over Te/Fe. Personal Ideas over People/Society.

This is it. For me thread is done. Ni provides the greatest independence.
 

BigApplePi

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BAP it seems Architect has taken your side. I'll have to think about it. I've only recently developed this idea so perhaps I need to take more time and apply less force.
I was thinking the same thing this morning as I woke up. I don't want to be "right" just because of Architect's support. I will have to think of your side too. What I was thinking is we are different temperaments. You want to focus and get results. I want to avoid focus and take in the periphery. Even if that isn't quite right, it's something along those lines. What I visualize is even if we don't change temperaments, we could shoot for recognizing what the other fellow's attitude is. Then the thing could be reconciled.


Let me look back at what you said yesterday and see if I can add anything.
 

BigApplePi

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A person's dominant function is all you really need. This is consistent with a theory of four (functions only), or eight (functions and attitudes) types. I believe the functions and attitudes were identified through Jung's study of types, not the other way around.

It depends on your factorization tree of typology. Do you begin with a base dichotomy of I/E (as in MBTI) or irrational/rational (as in Types)??

If irrational and rational is a base dichotomy of typology then we immediately see divergence between INTP and INTJ.

The next differentiation made by Jung at this point is I/E so we now have four types (introverted rationals, introverted irrationals, ..., ....)

At this point in the study we begin to see the emergence of functions in typology. Rationals seem to be divided into either thinking or feeling types which characteristically/by definition repress the function (as there is only ONE) of the other type into unconsciousness. At this point we now have eight types (two introverted rationals, two introverted irrationals, two extraverted rationals, two extraverted irrationals).
BG this seems to be okay. I wouldn't quarrel with it, not having examined every detail. What I would like to say new is we can arrive at temperament either from top/down OR bottom up.

It is not exactly like saying electrons and protons are part of the atom, as they may exist freely in space, unbound by nuclear forces. However, I do not dismiss the idea altogether; I believe that in a sense, electrons and protons are defined by the atom.
Top/down: We look at the atom, analyze it and find its constituent parts. Bottom/up: we start with electrons and protons, find them wherever, and construct an atoms by putting electrons and protons together in a special relationship.

Look at what can happen in each case. Top/down: We looks at the atom and fail to discover all its parts. Yet we still have the atom. Bottom/up: We take parts and try to construct an atom and find we can't do it because something is missing.


I was simply giving an alternative explanation ...
Terrific. We are closer to agreement.

I could see one of two things happening as you try to bring out your unconscious type:

1. Introverted thinking and introverted feeling are so contradictory ...
You are using some terms* I haven't taken in properly and would have to look at later. It may be a problem in language where I say one thing and you another and we don't read each other properly. For example I don't see introverted thinking and introverted feeling as contradictory at all. They operate in parallel. Thinking observes; feeling evaluates. One can't do both at exactly the same time. If one is conscious the other has to remain unconscious. One could rapidly alternate but that usually doesn't happen ... for the sake of integrity of purpose.

X. You, however, had suggested that you are acting "like an INTJ" which I would suggest is largely impossible as it violates the primary/base distinction in the model (i.e. rational vs. irrational types).
I don't quite recall the context where I said that, but we are getting into language details here. If we had more room, pages and pages, we might be able to resolve it with more detailed analysis.
________________
*terms like R/IR. I have glossed over that finding them at the moment extraneous to one particular model. If I reread how you've used them, I might do better at getting what you're saying.
 

Base groove

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You said you acted like an INTJ because you were bold enough to 'take action' and proclaim Ni and Fi are worthless pieces of crap. So I guess I raised arms to battle. I've moved on.
 

BigApplePi

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You said you acted like an INTJ because you were bold enough to 'take action' and proclaim Ni and Fi are worthless pieces of crap. So I guess I raised arms to battle. I've moved on.
Perhaps that's what you meant by my "trolling" = fishing. If I had said, "Ni and Fi are not accepted consciously by an INTP", Absurdity would have said nothing and you would not have done battle.

By using the word, "crap", I stepped out of INTP mode and entered another mode and got action. Was it worthwhile? Well I've yet to take on Absurdity and I don't think he will play. I have talked to ProxyAmenRa (the other INTJ) and I do believe we have achieved a state of mutual respect. Not so with Absurdity who remains reclusive.
 

Reluctantly

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Leader is someone who tell others what to do, because they don't know what to do, they don't want, or in group there is many ideas, and there is need for leader who choose one.
Leader is more important than others.

An army of sheep led by a lion is better than an army of lions led by a sheep.

Army without one soldier is still strong. Army without commander can't even be considered as an army.

So your definition @Reluctantly is a democratic crap.

Congratulations, you're a certified moron.
 

Grayman

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Perhaps that's what you meant by my "trolling" = fishing. If I had said, "Ni and Fi are not accepted consciously by an INTP", Absurdity would have said nothing and you would not have done battle.

By using the word, "crap", I stepped out of INTP mode and entered another mode and got action. Was it worthwhile? Well I've yet to take on Absurdity and I don't think he will play. I have talked to ProxyAmenRa (the other INTJ) and I do believe we have achieved a state of mutual respect. Not so with Absurdity who remains reclusive.

The whole MBTI is a worthless peice of crap except creating yet another category to define eachother as like minded individuals. There are no functions. No dominance. There is only an ability of the mind to function within its limits based upon a set value system. I could be TeNi if I simly trust my first answer withou question and commited to action.
 

BigApplePi

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I want to be certified too. Where do I go?:confused:
 

BigApplePi

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humbug
 

Polaris

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Humburgers do taste different.
 

Spirit

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The whole MBTI is a worthless peice of crap except creating yet another category to define eachother as like minded individuals. There are no functions. No dominance. There is only an ability of the mind to function within its limits based upon a set value system. I could be TeNi if I simly trust my first answer withou question and commited to action.

Are you stating;

There are no observable patterns in processing the world from a human perspective?

There are no preferred ways of processing the world from a human perspective?

There is no way to use probability to determine how we process the world from a human perspective?
 

Grayman

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Are you stating;

There are no observable patterns in processing the world from a human perspective?

There are no preferred ways of processing the world from a human perspective?

There is no way to use probability to determine how we process the world from a human perspective?

I was just playing with my good buddy BAP. This was only doubt of the MBTI belief system I have adopted. Like any good religion it has its purpose but I prefer truth over religion.

All the above are defined by a persons values. There are similarities bertween people because they share values.

There are also different limiting factors like our abilities in various processes.
See. http://www.web-us.com/brain/lrbrain.html

I believe this belief system may be as relevent as MBTI if not more.
 
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