Adults as Good Buffalo

[TBerg]

As we grow into adulthood, we assume that we do more and more of our own conscious planning. We assume that this conscious planning is the result of rational consideration of our options and choosing between them based upon objective criteria. It is as though we become more and more godlike in our capacity to exercise rational judgment. We look upon ourselves as beings of agency.

I had the realization that this is at least an incomplete, if not inverted, picture of reality as it really is. It necessitates that I suggest that we become less and less free and less and less capable of free judgment as we age into our years. It is as though we become more and more attached to our animal natures as we grow older.

As we pass through the stages of maturation, it is not as though we merely learn about what we think about a certain object of interest and thereby pronounce this judgment upon the world. It is, in fact, mainly the opposite. We learn more and more the acceptance of other opinions as well as the capacity to follow the impulse of the herd instinct. Thus, we do lose our archaic images and replace them with the symbols of language and the feelings of others that impel us and shape our worldview.

Thus we become elaborate and elegant buffalo composing a horde that coheres by means of symbolic images and empathic impulse. We are raised to be in the horde, not to rise above it.

 

[lassitude]

We are raised to be in the horde, not to rise above it.

We're raised to find ways that make us think we're special and above the herd so we don't feel like we wasted our time doing whatever it took to get there.

 

[Frankie]

Some people, on some occasions, do rise above the herd a tiny little bit. Their rise, in turn raises the herd but not to their level.
Every generation of the herd rises slightly higher than the previous. The herd will continue to rise a little bit until it is annihilated or it turns into something else.

 

[Yellow]

Sounds about right. As we mature, we go from being confused little buffalo who have no idea whats going on to being adult buffalo who find our places in the herd. It's kinda beautiful, actually.

I'd like to believe that I come somewhere in the middle of the herd in a back-to-front sorta way, and toward the edge in a side-to-side sorta way (preferably on the side that gets to see lots of scenery whilst avoiding as many water-dwelling predators as possible. Buffalo are weak swimmers.)

We are not a beautiful or unique snowflakes. In death, a member of project mayhem has a name.

 

[Urakro]

We start off rebellious and genuine, fighting hard against the grain, but eventually turn out helpless and broken. We let go and get carried along with the flow. Realizing that if you can't beat them, you may as well join them.

There would be a lot of people in existential crisis if everything just changed drastically.

 

[bvanevery]

Huh?

Is anyone here old enough to actually know what they're talking about?

Ok, I'm not going to see if anyone publicly revealed their age, and I'm not not revealing mine. But my Balderdash-o-meter got pinged about a lot of these assumptions. So let me offer a completely different world view.

You see that cranky old man at the country club, the one who's grousing about the shrimp isn't right, the neighbors drive too fast, how dare others paint their house a certain way? I guarantee you, he was a cranky young man once upon a time. In exactly the same way. He didn't learn anything. Something about the course of his life, he never figured it out.

You have a choice. Don't be that guy.

And don't succumb to selective observation about anything. You wanna believe in buffalos and herds? That's all you're gonna see.

 

[TBerg]

I fully admit my biases that drag me down into bitterness and despair. I embody that which I seek to rectify. I am heartbroken that the ideal of a noble individual is so illusory, so others must learn from my mistakes. Utopia is literally nonexistent, and it is my deepest life lesson to distrust it. What am I supposed to do with the source of my deepest knowledge and most pressing impulse?

 

[bvanevery]

"noble" = meaningless word. Are you using that as an equivalent of "good" ? You wrote a lot on your blog about West this, West that, so surely you are not ignorant of the classist basis of describing "noble" traits in anybody.

So throwing that word out, we're left with "the ideal of an individual is so illusory".... Ok, so, what is your ideal of an individual? At a guess, bet it isn't mine.

Yep, can't trust Utopias, they don't exist. Next issue?

With your knowledge, you're supposed to make a choice. Existentialism works for me. And if it's good enough for me, it's good enough for you.

 

[TBerg]

Existentialism leads to the deracinated state that has imperiled the Western identity. When you have no identity left, then you are left responding to the pleasure of those who most threaten you. A deracinated state takes generations to uncover, so those who threaten us will replace us in the end.

I find SJW terms such as "classist" to be vacuous. My ideal is the Ubermensch, the embodiment of someone who takes their passions and put them into brilliant practice. I fail this ideal miserably. I grew up without a strong herd socialization, and so I learned how to navigate rudimentary social situations in an autistic trial-and-error fashion. Because I learned so little from others, my worldview is impoverished. Because I had a disjointed identity, I learned after several bitter failures that this identity could not be channeled by my talent. I am lost.

 

[bvanevery]

Existentialism leads to the deracinated state

Who's gonna write hard science fiction about an Earth where we don't all end up various shades of brown? Travel is going to make the planet smaller and smaller.

that has imperiled the Western identity. When you have no identity left,

Huh? How does a shift of cultural perspective from Western to something more internationalist and multicultural, lead to "no" identity? But hey, I've got a sociocultural anthropology degree, have lived in London for a bit, and have seen a lot of Europe. Are you worldly yourself? If you are, then what are you afraid of? If you aren't, then your fears are explainable.

I find SJW terms

I had to look up that acronym. "Social Justice Warrior", used as a pejorative. Ok whatever. Does this imply that you are 1) miserable, 2) want social injustice in order to fix that?

such as "classist" to be vacuous.

Referring to "noble" qualities is classist. You are referring to the upper echelon of an aristocratic society, the nobility. Compare "well mannered" and "well bred" for historical meaning. As opposed to the lousy manners and indiscriminate breeding of all those poor people out there.

My ideal is the Ubermensch, the embodiment of someone who takes their passions and put them into brilliant practice.

I'm rusty on that one, had to go look it up. Reading some basic materials on that, I think it would be dangerous for me to make assumptions about what you think "Ubermensch" implies. So I will throw it out, and take only what you actually said at face value:

My ideal [of the individual is] someone who takes their passions and put them into brilliant practice.

So the next question is, what are your passions?

 

[TBerg]

Your attempt at condescension and pedantry wears thin. In fact, I have lived among Germans in DC for two and a half years, lived in China for a year and a half, and my best friend is from Honduras. I have studied Chinese philosophy and Buddhism for purposes of academic study and personal edification. Not that any of this matters, but it sure does work in eviscerating your narrative about me. You sure make a lot of assumptions, and you put them to work in your ad hominem conjecture.

Now, personally, I love diversity as I love learning about varieties of worldviews and lifestyles, but I do not project this upon society as a political project. My personal taste should have nothing to do with how society functions, other than to create a liberal space of experimentation. But pluralism leads to social breakdown if people don't play by the same rules. Witness Pakistani Muslims raping white children with the tacit acceptance of the British state. The fact is that the best explanation for this is a lack of common ground rules for creating a binding social contract manifested in ideological multiculturalism.

Which brings me to a deeper question: Should we hold our past bloodlines as a legacy that we have to curate, or are we to pretend that we are individuals without having been moulded by the actions of the people who created the environment of our upbringing? The fact is that it was Europeans who developed the ideas from Christianity, Greek philosophy, and English law that brought us the ideas of freedom and individualism and conscience that I care about. It was not Arabs, Chinese, or any other civilization that brought us to our current pinnacle of liberal thought. I would be willing to consider an equivalent to Socrates and Jesus in another civilization if you can provide it, but I am dubious of the findings.

 

[bvanevery]

Your attempt at condescension and pedantry wears thin.

Hey you pretty much implied I'm a "Social Justice Warrior", and looking that up it wasn't exactly flattering, so I think you can spare the indignity.

But pluralism leads to social breakdown if people don't play by the same rules. Witness Pakistani Muslims raping white children with the tacit acceptance of the British state.

Ok at least now you've stated "what you are afraid of". Do you think Muslims have a unique ability to rape as compared to other ethnicities? Do you have stats on that?

The fact is that the best explanation for this is a lack of common ground rules for creating a binding social contract manifested in ideological multiculturalism.

I don't suppose you're going to accept an alternate hypothesis of poverty and disenfranchisement as a driver of crime, regardless of ethnicity. Or the proposition that wealthy whites rape too.

The fact is that it was Europeans who developed the ideas from Christianity, Greek philosophy, and English law that brought us the ideas of freedom and individualism and conscience that I care about.

Actually it's not a fact to the degree you suppose. You're not giving credit to the various cultural influences that made it to the West. Africa and India were in early communication with Europe. The USA contributed a fair chunk of what we now think of as "the West", and we got some governmental notions from indigenous tribes, particularly the Iroquois Confederacy.

Anyways the question about your passions as an individual is getting lost here. What are they?

 

[Sinny91]

Not that any of this matters, but it sure does work in eviscerating your narrative about me. You sure make a lot of assumptions, and you put them to work in your ad hominem conjecture.

Lul, I often say the same to you.

Witness Pakistani Muslims raping white children with the tacit acceptance of the British state. The fact is that the best explanation for this is a lack of common ground rules for creating a binding social contract manifested in ideological multiculturalism.

I think I agree with you, but could you explain this a bit better? (For context, we do have an issue with a certain minority of other cultures making them selves deviants here - and certain factions of government are optimising on the issue)

The fact is that it was Europeans who developed the ideas from Christianity, Greek philosophy, and English law that brought us the ideas of freedom and individualism and conscience that I care about. It was not Arabs, Chinese, or any other civilization that brought us to our current pinnacle of liberal thought. I would be willing to consider an equivalent to Socrates and Jesus in another civilization if you can provide it, but I am dubious of the findings.

Lulz again, western 'freedom' is a farse, nearly always has been. Our 'current pinnacle of liberal thought' is corrupt and bastardised. Wake up Tberg - here, I made you some coffee.

This is what 'English Law' thinks of our 'freedom'
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/Cha2/18-19/11

Tberg is like the biggest 'SJW' here..

 

[TBerg]

Hey you pretty much implied I'm a "Social Justice Warrior", and looking that up it wasn't exactly flattering, so I think you can spare the indignity.



Ok at least now you've stated "what you are afraid of". Do you think Muslims have a unique ability to rape as compared to other ethnicities? Do you have stats on that?



I don't suppose you're going to accept an alternate hypothesis of poverty and disenfranchisement as a driver of crime, regardless of ethnicity. Or the proposition that wealthy whites rape too.



Actually it's not a fact to the degree you suppose. You're not giving credit to the various cultural influences that made it to the West. Africa and India were in early communication with Europe. The USA contributed a fair chunk of what we now think of as "the West", and we got some governmental notions from indigenous tribes, particularly the Iroquois Confederacy.

Anyways the question about your passions as an individual is getting lost here. What are they?

http://chersonandmolschky.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/image0051.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Rape_in_Sweden_after_background.png

http://www.thelocal.de/20160104/refugees-blamed-for-mass-sexual-assault-in-cologne

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPa_T9w5ceE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaYwwyQWUrE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze0sK8f48x4

And, if you accept even one iota of feminist theory, then you would have to admit that "arranged" marriages in Saudi Arabia, a country wealthier than most Western countries, is often tantamount to rape, vitiating your hardline Marxist analysis.

I never mentioned a system of government in my declaration of Western values. I am talking strictly about culture. Find me an equivalent to Jesus and Socrates, or just admit you are unaware of a compelling ancient figure that has not been assimilated by the West.

 

[Sinny91]

I never mentioned a system of government in my declaration of Western values. I am talking strictly about culture. Find me an equivalent to Jesus and Socrates, or just admit you are unaware of a compelling ancient figure that has not been assimilated by the West.

What point is this contributing to?

 

[QuickTwist]

@bvanevery, could you just chill with the debate power struggle thing? This is not suppose to be a competition, it is simply an exchange of information and personal perspective.

 

[TBerg]

What point is this contributing to?

I am defending the individualist anchor of Western civilization. The most compelling trend in the Gospels is the systematic critique of the collective system, saying that the Priests follow dead ritual and the Scribes use scholarship for personal aggrandizement, creating a priesthood for all believers. The most compelling trend in Socratic dialogues is the interrogation of the system and the implication that the system doesn't know anything, leaving it to the individual conscience. In both narratives, they accept death as the consequence of following the dictates of their individual consciences.

 

[bvanevery]

http://chersonandmolschky.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/image0051.jpg

http://chersonandmolschky.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/image0051.jpg

Ok, so you've got a bit of an underground sex slave trade problem it seems. I'm not sure what problems we have with that in the USA. It doesn't exactly make headlines all that often. I'm inclined to say, isn't this less about being Muslim or Asian, and more about organized crime? There's nothing casual or incidental about human trafficking. Yes of course you've got a whole slew of maybe Muslim-looking perps on the front of that article, but these kinds of things thrive in poor and marginalized communities. Doesn't happen, say, just because you're praying to Allah.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Rape_in_Sweden_after_background.png

This looks suspiciously like cherry picking. It provides 8 years of sampling, but excludes 8 years in the middle of the sample. What does the graph look like if those years are included?

Also, is the graph even a big whoop? A scale is given, and colors are added, to make the results look scary. But I see the current population of Sweden is 9.69 million people. I found it was ~8 million in 1985. ~6500 rapes doesn't sound like a lot to me, for a population of that size. ~8 per 10,000 people get raped, yeah, doesn't sound like much to write home about. I haven't studied comparative rape statistics in other countries, but my gut reaction is, where's the fire? Don't think Swedish police are doing their jobs?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Rape_in_Sweden_after_background.png

http://www.thelocal.de/20160104/refugees-blamed-for-mass-sexual-assault-in-cologne

What is being reported as sexual assault, sounds like pinching and groping. While I don't condone it, I've certainly seen it from groups of men other than Muslim migrants. I remember a class trip to Sorrento when I was at the American School in London, at the end of high school. Oddly we had 18 girls and 3 boys on that trip. I wish it would have worked to my advantage but for whatever reason it didn't. Anyways the boys chasing those girls through the streets of Sorrento were merciless! On the disco floor they would also form a big circle around a group of them and then pinch and grope them. These American girls had absolutely no idea how to deal with these guys, it was totally outside their experience. We were told that an Italian girl would yell at them, hit them, or otherwise be rather forceful about defending her personal space. And that this was effective.

So, that 1 rape aside, the 'sexual assaults' sound like misdemeanor criminal mischief. I don't condone it, but it's not a particularly Muslim thing. It is indicative, however, of a culture that doesn't respect women. Regarding the Muslim world, that is of course obvious.

Solutions? Well, we seem to have it sorted here in the USA. Laws and prevailing cultural mores restrain most people, whereas several decades ago they didn't. I also advocate personal defense in the form of knives or guns, but few women actually go that route. Some do though, and in a pinch (pun intended) it gets good results.
http://www.thelocal.de/20160104/refugees-blamed-for-mass-sexual-assault-in-cologne
Pardon on the long videos, I won't be reviewing them presently. I hate nothing more than long videos that I have to wait for, to get the information out of them. I may review them at some point if I think it's relevant and have the time.

And, if you accept even one iota of feminist theory, then you would have to admit that "arranged" marriages in Saudi Arabia, a country wealthier than most Western countries, is often tantamount to rape, vitiating your hardline Marxist analysis.

Well lots of places in the world are shitholes. But I don't think that has much to do with what's going on in the UK or Sweden.

I never mentioned a system of government in my declaration of Western values. I am talking strictly about culture.

There can be no separation. I've never heard of a government that didn't affect how people perceive and act upon Life. For instance, the number of Euros I've run into who are absolutely squeamish about guns and personal defense. They've had monarchs disarming them for so long, they have no idea of a society organized some other way. We shot our monarchs once upon a time, that's why we still have guns.

Find me an equivalent to Jesus and Socrates, or just admit you are unaware of a compelling ancient figure that has not been assimilated by the West.

Pardon but "big man theory" isn't the only way to look at history. Besides, Jesus may be a myth anyways. If so, then merely a packaging of expressed / valued cultural ideals.

I'm noticing again, you haven't talked about your passions. Maybe we've just got too much political discussion in the way of it. If that is so, we'll probably wear out the political this-and-that eventually, and get back on track.

 

[EditorOne]

All I know about buffalo herds is that you can't roller skate in one.

Roger Miller song, 1965. When I was 15.

So that's my credentials as an old buffalo.

Meanwhile, I think aging involves more than many of you realize, not all bad. There's always change, in yourself and expectations, based on what you've seen happen already when A does B and you absorb it and either repeat A or avoid A or try C. But for me it always seems things get processed along the same general principles. And you get answers to the "why?" questions we all ask as we move along, so you may no longer expect some aspects of human behavior to change but you have a better understanding of why people are superstitious or redundantly greedy or whatever. That doesn't mean you accept it as the standard of what ought to be; it just means you accept that some behavior that is less than attractive is genetically hardwired, say, and beyond reach for you to change. And in that case the solution for an individual may be to avoid "the herd" in the grips of such behavior, rather than to join the herd.

Perhaps aging for some of us just means learning to pick your fights because you've figured out you can't win all of them.

 

[Sinny91]

I am defending the individualist anchor of Western civilization.

Can you expand on the concept of the 'Individualist Anchor of western Civilisation'?

The most compelling trend in the Gospels is the systematic critique of the collective system saying that the Priests follow dead ritual and the Scribes use scholarship for personal aggrandizement, creating a priesthood for all believers.

Why is that so compelling?

The most compelling trend in Socratic dialogues is the interrogation of the system and the implication that the system doesn't know anything, leaving it to the individual conscience.

Could you expand on the 'Collective System' and 'System' to which you refer to?

In both narratives, they accept death as the consequence of following the dictates of their individual consciences.

I'm unsure what you mean here..



Tberg is American, he is just cherry picking sensational stories about Muslims in order to propogate his Islamaphobia. (imo)

Spoiler

 

[bvanevery]

@bvanevery, could you just chill with the debate power struggle thing? This is not suppose to be a competition, it is simply an exchange of information and personal perspective.

No sorry this thread is about what it's about. It started with social theory about how people acquiesce to a herd mentality as they get older. I called bull on that. Then it segued into TBerg's ideals and perceived failings as an individual. I'm still interested in discussing that, and hoping we get back to it.

However a large part of TBerg's personal identity is wrapped up in these "Western" issues, which you'll fully understand if you read his blog entries. So we are ruthlessly having it out on that one. It needs to be done, because he will never get anywhere if he's displacing his problems onto Muslims, consciously or subconsciously.

There are many threads available on this site to participate in, if you don't like this one. And of course you will state what you don't like about this thread, yet again, in some other manner, if my reasoning isn't sufficient for you. But I will continue as before.

If TBerg himself quits because it's too much for him, well that will pretty much remove any reason for me to post further. But I think he's probably stronger and more tenacious than that.

 

[TBerg]

I still think there is a major problem regarding Muslims and multiculturalism. I would encourage you to learn more.

But I think I can at least convince you to abandon the Marxism that underpins your worldview. If what you say about wealth is true, then Saudi Arabia would be a Progressive haven even more advanced than Sweden, whose authorities omit data for reasons of defending multiculturalism. In fact, one of the wealthiest countries on the planet embodies de jure "rape culture" without rival. How would you explain this difference in culture? What would cause the fact that women have no choice in marrying their husbands? What would explain the fact that houses are virtual prisons for half the population? What would explain the strict gender apartheid everywhere in that country?

 

[Sinny91]

I think we all recognise that mainstream interpretation of Islam is behind the times as far as civil liberties go. So are some forms of Christianty - Which you note has had such a profound influence on 'Western Civilisation'..

The only difference is that us in the west are now collectively moving away from such old, barabaric interpretations of scripture. Many of todays masquerading Christians, are not.

You can moan about the wrong doings of others all you like, but I don't see what good that will do. The best course of action is to lead by example, and as long as you persist under the delusion that our western ideologies and institutions are morally/ideologically superior to those of the brown people, (lets cut to the chase shall we) - you are not doing a very good job of leading by example.

If you truely opposed the underground sex slave trade, you'd start by petitioning to your own government about their involvement in such matters.

If you truely wanted to reverse the era of multi-cultrulism you would start being pro-active in solutions.. Such as kindly asking your government to stop forcibly displacing millions of people -which is the the cause this diaspora which you despise so much.

 

[bvanevery]

In fact, one of the wealthiest countries on the planet embodies de jure "rape culture" without rival. How would you explain this difference in culture?

You have a poor understanding of Marxism if you think it somehow equates "wealth = good". That's Capitalism. Wealth distribution is the issue. The Saudis clearly aren't. This is like Marxism 101.

What would cause the fact that women have no choice in marrying their husbands?

Again, Marxism 101. They are treated as property.

 

[TBerg]

You have a poor understanding of Marxism if you think it somehow equates "wealth = good". That's Capitalism. Wealth distribution is the issue. The Saudis clearly aren't. This is like Marxism 101.



Again, Marxism 101. They are treated as property.

The whole point of Marxist eschatology is to say that wealth accumulation results in the establishment of bourgeois ethics and individualism, which Marxists call "class privilege." For all their wealth accumulation, the Saudis have not provided the rights entailed in a bourgeois society. They are still deeply authoritarian and even totalitarian. Petrodollars have not resulted in bourgeois democracy.

 

[bvanevery]

The whole point of Marxist eschatology is to say that wealth accumulation results in the establishment of bourgeois ethics and individualism, which Marxists call "class privilege." For all their wealth accumulation, the Saudis have not provided the rights entailed in a bourgeois society. They are still deeply authoritarian and even totalitarian. Petrodollars have not resulted in bourgeois democracy.

So they're locked in a Feudal state, so what? The wealth is obviously not being distributed and the consequences of that are entirely predictable. I don't see how being ruled by oil refineries is anything the Marxists didn't describe. Technology owns the worker.

 

[TBerg]

So they're locked in a Feudal state, so what? The wealth is obviously not being distributed and the consequences of that are entirely predictable. I don't see how being ruled by oil refineries is anything the Marxists didn't describe. Technology owns the worker.

Then why, if the royal clan wants modernization, do they still have to cater to the Ulema at every single turn? Why do they need the assent of religious scholars for every single social reform?

 

[bvanevery]

You would need to define 'modernization'. Who says the rights of workers or women are on their modernist agenda? Anyways I don't know what you're expecting as far as social action there. Europe required 2 world wars. Russia required their monarchy to be shot.

This is all a sideshow anyways. The problems of Saudi Arabia have very little to do with whatever Muslim problems you're having in the UK. Nor do Muslim problems have anything to do with your individualism. They aren't stopping you from making any choice.

 

[Jennywocky]

As we grow into adulthood, we assume that we do more and more of our own conscious planning. We assume that this conscious planning is the result of rational consideration of our options and choosing between them based upon objective criteria. It is as though we become more and more godlike in our capacity to exercise rational judgment. We look upon ourselves as beings of agency.

I had the realization that this is at least an incomplete, if not inverted, picture of reality as it really is. It necessitates that I suggest that we become less and less free and less and less capable of free judgment as we age into our years. It is as though we become more and more attached to our animal natures as we grow older.

As we pass through the stages of maturation, it is not as though we merely learn about what we think about a certain object of interest and thereby pronounce this judgment upon the world. It is, in fact, mainly the opposite. We learn more and more the acceptance of other opinions as well as the capacity to follow the impulse of the herd instinct. Thus, we do lose our archaic images and replace them with the symbols of language and the feelings of others that impel us and shape our worldview.

Thus we become elaborate and elegant buffalo composing a horde that coheres by means of symbolic images and empathic impulse. We are raised to be in the horde, not to rise above it.

Well, I think it's pretty common progression to feel like you're becoming more automous as you age ("oh look, I know more, I understand more, I have more freedoms granted to me as I move from childhood to adult"). After all, when you're 18, pretty much 100% of your life has been spent expanding, growing, reaching out for autonomy and power to control your destiny, learning how to differentiate yourself.

Then you realize you're more intertwined than you thought, because you cannot make decisions or judgments about the world without being immersed within a frame of reference that was determined mostly by chance (starting with what culture and family you were born into).

Once you realize both of those things -- that you have SOME autonomy and ability to try to think outside things, yet much of your thinking is embedded in a particular frame of reference -- you gain some more freedom to consciously step further past your own boundary awareness. You can never be free of it, but you can stretch it, observe, gather information from other reference points, and expand as a person.

So I think the human journey (in part) involves essentially gyroscoping between maintaining one's own creativity and autonomy while improving one's ability to communicate and share/gather information from space outside oneself, which does involve network with other people, society, ideas from other perspectives. I don't think that journey ever ends. And it demands psychological strength to manage the conflicting needs of those processes while not being absorbed by either.

Put in your words, I don't think it's one or the other. It's not like you're subsumed by the herd, nor do you separate yourself entire from the herd (although I think "herd" is a negative term to use -- let's face it, you can't escape being a bison if that's what you're born as, right? Why not just consider it a starting point?) You're really learning how to develop some individuality and self-perspective while remaining open to other ideas and learning how to share who you are with others. You're both an individual and part of a collective at once.

You'll always be changing and managing this process, once you become aware of it. “What wouldn't I give now for a never-changing map of the ever-constant ineffable? To possess, as it were, an atlas of clouds.” ~ Cloud Atlas. Alas, there is no such thing. But your life is forged by every step you take through those ambiguities.

 

[bvanevery]

I like most of what you posted but I'm going to pick on this one piece:

(although I think "herd" is a negative term to use -- let's face it, you can't escape being a bison if that's what you're born as, right? Why not just consider it a starting point?)

To talk about human beings being bison is dumb. We eat them for a reason. We are smarter than them. We are not bound by instinct or genetics anywhere near the degree that they are. To say "you can't escape being a bison" has no relevance to the human condition at all. They aren't even omnivores, good grief! Those eyes on the sides of their heads, that's 'cuz they're prey.

Yes it's true we can't escape being human beings, but there's a reason we've conquered the planet. We have a huge possibility space compared to any other species on the planet. Orders of magnitude more huge than anything we've otherwise known to exist.

Despite the huge possibility space, you're going to meet a lot of humans who do their darndest to take the complexity out of all of it. To live simple lives with simple ideas. Go figure. Hey, rule them, use them, interface with them, mate with them, avoid them, whatever you want to do, but it most certainly doesn't have to be you.

Where's the bison internet, where they moan about their lack of individuality? Which clever bison invented it?

 

[Jennywocky]

I like most of what you posted but I'm going to pick on this one piece:

Fine with me. I've never been partial to bison myself -- except maybe when I'm ordering burgers at Fuddruckers.

To talk about human beings being bison is dumb. We eat them for a reason. We are smarter than them. We are not bound by instinct or genetics anywhere near the degree that they are. To say "you can't escape being a bison" has no relevance to the human condition at all. They aren't even omnivores, good grief! Those eyes on the sides of their heads, that's 'cuz they're prey.

It was clearly a loaded dismissive term in the OP, to accentuate how bad it is to become part of a 'herd.' *shrug*

Yes it's true we can't escape being human beings, but there's a reason we've conquered the planet. We have a huge possibility space compared to any other species on the planet. Orders of magnitude more huge than anything we've otherwise known to exist.

Agreed. We're very adaptable and have flexible programming. Other animals typically don't get confused about their "purpose in life" but it's common even for the most average person to at some point question their own instincts and desires. So we have a huge range of options available, and are always creating/becoming aware of more.

 

[TBerg]

Dude, the whole point was to summon a metaphorical image and then to show how that image informs us about some of the more fundamental properties of humankind that we like to ignore but are perhaps much more controlling than we like to admit. I fully admitted the elaborate motifs of our experience at the end.

I fully acknowledge the sensible appearance of Jenny's post, however.

 

[Sinny91]

Why do you never fully acknowledge my posts?

 

[TBerg]

Why do you never fully acknowledge my posts?

I'm a Zionist cuck. That's why.

 

[Sinny91]

I totally agree with that

 

[bvanevery]

Fine with me. I've never been partial to bison myself -- except maybe when I'm ordering burgers at Fuddruckers.

Bison meat is so good that I think I could overcome qualms about vegan inspired morality and go hunt them. There's an equation for this, factors being (Cuteness ExpressiveEmpathy Yield Tastiness Work Cost). Wild turkeys are funny looking and delicious and could be in trouble someday. Whereas I really don't ever want to hunt ducks, I like them too much. Squirrels are borderline. I would prefer to keep crayfish as river pets, unless I could manage to pull 'em up by the bucketful somewhere. As individual quarry they are way too small.

Now returning you to your regularly scheduled discussion of Rugged Individualism.

 

[Jennywocky]

Dude, the whole point was to summon a metaphorical image and then to show how that image informs us about some of the more fundamental properties of humankind that we like to ignore but are perhaps much more controlling than we like to admit. I fully admitted the elaborate motifs of our experience at the end.

I fully acknowledge the sensible appearance of Jenny's post, however.

Sure, that's how I always go out in public: Looking like Ms. Sensible, while inside a raving lunatic.

 

[Sinny91]

Sure, that's how I always go out in public: Looking like Ms. Sensible, while inside a raving lunatic.

lolol

 

[TBerg]

In regard to my interests, science would be peace for me, but I do not have the basic talent in mathematics to do the actual basic legwork of science. I have thus reverted to my prior interests in politics and culture in which words are the only things that matter. I cannot take my ideas out to wider society because I am a weak buffalo without the social intelligence to propagate anything. Luckily INTPs are strong in Ti and weak in Fi, so I am not totally alien in this forum.

 

[bvanevery]

I have thus reverted to my prior interests in politics and culture in which words are the only things that matter. I cannot take my ideas out to wider society because I am a weak buffalo without the social intelligence to propagate anything.

I'll take your skill estimates at face value, even if I think your framing is pointlessly negative and self-punishing. How about a job in some think tank somewhere? You seem inclined to the social sciences. Got a B.A. in sociocultural anthropology myself, but went on to do 3d computer graphics software development. I knew I was not social enough to do anthropological fieldwork, and computers obviously offered far better pay.