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Thread split from what gender are you internally: Is transgenderism/gender dysphoria a mental illnes

Brontosaurie

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The label of mental illness does nothing to improve understanding. It works against it.



Already have ad nauseum.

Labelling transgender as a mental illness has nothing to do with truth, does nothing to improve understanding and ultimately just reinforces already existing social dogma.

I know you're trying really hard to convince everyone that it is, but it's pretty obvious that your goal here is neither truth or understanding.

if cheap accusation is how you wanna play this, have at it. no don't.

explain your incoherent and judgmental stance (read posts, respond to arguments) or gtfo.
 
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I can agree with Bronto that TG meets the observable criteria of an illness.

perhaps it wouldn't if our rigid binary model of gender did not force individuals to pick a side or become social pariahs.

some cultures do not share our binary model of gender and categorise those who do not conform to it as being genders other than male or female, such as 'two-spirit' among indigenous north americans and 'hirja' in india, rather than as being mentally ill.

further reading
 

Ex-User (9086)

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perhaps it wouldn't if our rigid binary model of gender did not force individuals to pick a side or become social pariahs.

some cultures do not share our binary model of gender and categorise those who do not conform to it as being genders other than male or female, such as 'two-spirit' among indigenous north americans and 'hirja' in india, rather than as being mentally ill.

further reading
Indians have a horrible caste system, which renders thousands of people (untouchables) as outcasts and denies them possibilities of acceptance or functioning in the country. No proper jobs, education, marriage, domestic help, etc.

Also, I disagree it's purely an issue of perspective. TG people don't have fully functional organs, need hormonal injections, suffer from obesity and other cardiovascular diseases related with a destabilised hormonal system. The treatment is very costly, with few individuals able to afford it, it involves permanent damage to the body (even ignoring sexual organs reproductive function, which is an issue for some TG's as they would like to be fully functional, some don't mind it as much).

Without the treatment, they suffer, because they can't express themselves as who they perceive themselves to be, they don't accept themselves.

Society's acceptance of TG is a part of it, but their suffering comes from within.
 

Brontosaurie

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i'm not "labeling" transsexuality as an illness in the sense of oppressive stigmatizing psychiatry. i'm stating what it by definition is. a pervasive failure of the mind - a mental illness. a pervasive failure of the mind in self-awareness - an a priori mental illness. again: the problem here is how society treats mental illness, not whether transsexuality is one. it very much is. so what you are doing, again, is exactly equivalent to trying to emancipate blacks by calling them white.

you and CC both copped out at this argument. you have completely ignored it, yet you treat yourself to a moral high ground.
 
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Indians have a horrible caste system, which renders thousands of people (untouchables) as outcasts and denies them possibilities of acceptance or functioning in the country. No proper jobs, education, marriage, domestic help, etc.

my point was that they recognise more than two genders, not a comment on the society in general or its treatment of mixed-sex individuals.

Also, I disagree it's purely an issue of perspective. TG people don't have fully functional organs, need hormonal injections, suffer from obesity and other cardiovascular diseases related with a destabilised hormonal system. The treatment is very costly, with few individuals able to afford it, it involves permanent damage to the body (even ignoring sexual organs reproductive function, which is an issue for some TG's as they would like to be fully functional, some don't mind it as much).

Without the treatment, they suffer, because they can't express themselves as who they perceive themselves to be, they don't accept themselves.

Society's acceptance of TG is a part of it, but their suffering comes from within.

you are arguing my point; problems arise because they are forced to choose to "become" the (binary) gender that they most identify with.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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my point was that they recognise more than two genders, not a comment on the society in general or its treatment of mixed-sex individuals.

you are arguing my point; problems arise because they are forced to choose to "become" the (binary) gender that they most identify with.
My bad, I didn't recognise your position. Yeah, I like the two-soul idea and I agree generally.

Additionally I think some TG are binary by choice, I have a TG relative who can't get over not being the opposite sex and they feel impaired, they are in love with a partner of their biological (mental opposite gender) and they would like to have kids.
 
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Additionally I think some TG are binary by choice, I have a TG relative who can't get over not being the opposite sex and they feel impaired, they are in love with a partner of their biological (mental opposite gender) and they would like to have kids.

yes, i understand that there are many transgender individuals in similar positions to your relative. i wonder how their choices (and psychological well-being) would differ if they had been raised in a culture with a non-binary gender model though.
 

Cherry Cola

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you and CC both copped out at this argument. you have completely ignored it, yet you treat yourself to a moral high ground.
Oh please

Not answering as fast as you'd like doesn't equal copping out. When I quit arguing yesterday it was because I went to hang out with people I had decided I was going to hang out with earlier, after that I lost access to the laptop I was borrowing. The prospect of making a long elaborate reply to your posts using my smartphone with its shity broken screen and lackluster features (I have no idea how to do stuff such as multiquote on it and it barely let's me see what I'm writing, it works for shorter stuff, we've already been going back and forth for a while though, I need to make a proper thought through reply Construed in wordpad, not rush out stuff to satisfy your impatience) doesn't appeal to me. That had nothing to do with "copping out". I was arguing for like 2 hours yesterday but apparently when youre part of a debate you have to be prepared to dedicate the entirety of your day too it or what?

How can I have kept on treating myself to moral highgrounds when I went afk because of RL before the post of yours which you refer to was being made? Moreover I haven't really been arguing from a moral highground in a snobbish way I'm fully aware that your intentions are good, I just think you're completely out of touch with reality on the matter.

Expect a reply later, I have been fucking busy and I will be busy today as well, I intend to borrow my grandmas comp later.

Spoiler: It isn't exactly eauivalent at all, only in principle, not in reality.

And no theres nothing weird about me taking the time to write this post on my mobile phone but not the reply since writing this didn't pressure my working memory nor require much time or effort.
 

crippli

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I wonder what Brontos take is on asexuality. Surely that must be the epitome of mental illness?
 

Brontosaurie

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Oh please

Not answering as fast as you'd like doesn't equal copping out. When I quit arguing yesterday it was because I went to hang out with people I had decided I was going to hang out with earlier, after that I lost access to the laptop I was borrowing. The prospect of making a long elaborate reply to your posts using my smartphone with its shity broken screen and lackluster features (I have no idea how to do stuff such as multiquote on it and it barely let's me see what I'm writing, it works for shorter stuff, we've already been going back and forth for a while though, I need to make a proper thought through reply Construed in wordpad, not rush out stuff to satisfy your impatience) doesn't appeal to me. That had nothing to do with "copping out". I was arguing for like 2 hours yesterday but apparently when youre part of a debate you have to be prepared to dedicate the entirety of your day too it or what?

How can I have kept on treating myself to moral highgrounds when I went afk because of RL before the post of yours which you refer to was being made? Moreover I haven't really been arguing from a moral highground in a snobbish way I'm fully aware that your intentions are good, I just think you're completely out of touch with reality on the matter.

Expect a reply later, I have been fucking busy and I will be busy today as well, I intend to borrow my grandmas comp later.

Spoiler: It isn't exactly eauivalent at all, only in principle, not in reality.

And no theres nothing weird about me taking the time to write this post on my mobile phone but not the reply since writing this didn't pressure my working memory nor require much time or effort.

seemed like a convenient moment, and you answered everything diligently and confidently right up until that point.

i'm not complaining about your post frequency, no need for excuses. i gotta excuse myself though because i thought you had replied to the post where i introduced the argument in question but you hadn't, only to the one just before it. so it's only redbaron who has done actual quotemining.

i expect to hear a good solid rundown on wtf "reality" means to you, if not: some entirely arbitrary degree of concession to stupid convention. if you have a point, you will show me another principle which modifies or counteracts the one i suggested, not just call me unrealistic because my opinion is rare.
 

redbaron

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Brontosaurie said:
explain your incoherent and judgmental stance (read posts, respond to arguments) or gtfo.

Back at you.

I've already established that whether not we label transgender as a mental illness has nothing to do with truth or understanding.

So far you've failed to coherently outline the ways that it does, while still insisting on attaching a clunky label that perpetuates hasty judgement.

The only one being incoherent and judgemental here is you. Coherently explain how labelling transgender as a mental illness is a matter of truth and how it increases understanding or gtfo.
 

Ex-User (11125)

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seemed like a convenient moment, and you answered everything diligently and confidently right up until that point.

i'm not complaining about your post frequency, no need for excuses. i gotta excuse myself though because i thought you had replied to the post where i introduced the argument in question but you hadn't, only to the one just before it. so it's only redbaron who has done actual quotemining.

i expect to hear a good solid rundown on wtf "reality" means to you, if not: some entirely arbitrary degree of concession to stupid convention. if you have a point, you will show me another principle which modifies or counteracts the one i suggested, not just call me unrealistic because my opinion is rare.

Nobody here was arguing against your opinion just because it's rare. you got lots of people asking you time and time again what would be redeemed by labelling TG mental illness, and so far your argument amounts to nothing more than "precise terminology is important" which does not fully answer the question.
 

redbaron

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Not to mention that the opinion of TG being a mental illness is anything but rare...
 

Brontosaurie

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Nobody here was arguing against your opinion just because it's rare. you got lots of people asking you time and time again what would be redeemed by labelling TG mental illness, and so far your argument amounts to nothing more than "precise terminology is important" which does not fully answer the question.

yeah that and "emancipation by feigned conformity isn't emancipation" which is a pretty big deal too. and cocky redbaron refuses to touch it.

the arguments from the opponents are only "people dislike mentally ill people so let's not call them mentally ill, then people will like them more", which is PERPETUATING PREJUDICE WHEN THE PURPOSE IS THE OPPOSITE. how are you not seeing this?
 

Brontosaurie

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Not to mention that the opinion of TG being a mental illness is anything but rare...

the totality of my opinion and analysis is rare. don't be a liar. read and comprehend posts if you want to partake in discussion. respond to arguments.

maybe you would care to explain what's "unrealistic". if you limit truth and meaning to immediately foreseeable application and particular emotions/interests, you're paving the way for stupidity, short-sighted judging attitude etc.... pls do some honest thinking before you're trying to win this shit like it's some rugby match. i'm not a transphobic, and you won't get to reign triumphant against pitch-black evil here.
 

redbaron

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Brontosaurie said:
the totality of my opinion and analysis is rare.

Nope it's really not. Sorry you don't get to be a special snowflake.

Brontosaurie said:
maybe you would care to explain what's "unrealistic". if you limit truth and meaning to immediately foreseeable application and particular emotions/interests, you're paving the way for stupidity, short-sighted judging attitude etc..

To be honest I don't consider hormonal imbalances to be a "pervasive failure of the mind". Those sorts of taglines are the real culprits that paving the way for stupidity and short-sighted judging attitudes.

It might be hard to understand when you live in highly progressive Sweden, but the biggest problem transgenders deal with (as Jenny noted) is social stigma. Even though you truly insist that what you're doing is facilitating understanding by saying that TG is a "mental illness" and a "pervasive failure of the mind" - you're not.

The two gender model is being contradicted by reality. When a model is contradicted by reality, you don't start coming up with labels and reasons why reality is wrong and the model is right. You change the model to better reflect reality.

If that means we have to have ten categories for gender - then so be it. The two gender model is sorely in need of change anyway, since hardly anyone actually identifies just as one or the other entirely, despite what appearances may have one believe.
 

Brontosaurie

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Nope it's really not. Sorry you don't get to be a special snowflake.



To be honest I don't consider hormonal imbalances to be a "pervasive failure of the mind". Those sorts of taglines are the real culprits that paving the way for stupidity and short-sighted judging attitudes.

It might be hard to understand when you live in highly progressive Sweden, but the biggest problem transgenders deal with (as Jenny noted) is social stigma. Even though you truly insist that what you're doing is facilitating understanding by saying that TG is a "mental illness" and a "pervasive failure of the mind" - you're not.

The two gender model is being contradicted by reality. When a model is contradicted by reality, you don't start coming up with labels and reasons why reality is wrong and the model is right. You change the model to better reflect reality.

If that means we have to have ten categories for gender - then so be it. The two gender model is sorely in need of change anyway, since hardly anyone actually identifies just as one or the other entirely, despite what appearances may have one believe.

transsexuality isn't "hormonal imbalances". transsexuality means having a sex identity that is in conflict with actual anatomical sex. hormonal imbalances may be causal or collaterally present, but not the phenomenon we are discussing. we are discussing transsexuality. we are not discussing hormonal imbalances per se. what do you intend to show with this semantic shift? doesn't "hormonal imbalances" also sound kinda bad and weak and bully-able to a retarded shit mind no one should give a fuck about?

there are two sexes. gender can be anything. gender means nothing. the concept of "gender" is completely superfluous and impedes understanding of sex and sex identity and hormonal expression and dimorphic adaptions etc. it's a reactionary activitst campaign that just maintains old prejudice/segregation in circulation with appeals to collective guilt, functioning much as a successor of christianity. "gender", that's an unwarranted label for you.

will you now address the central argument which constitutes half of my reasoning and which i've asked you like 3 times to address?

people's stupid emotions and flawed concepts are not "reality".
 

Brontosaurie

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Nope it's really not. Sorry you don't get to be a special snowflake.

oh and i'll just quote this and say that shit doesn't deserve a response. i would even commit a moral error if i gave one. your level is plummeting vertically. and it started low. wow man.
 

Jennywocky

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Srsly? You post twice, your first post is about 80% invective, then you turn around over a mere "simple snowflake" coment and talk about "how it doesn't deserve a response, your level is plummeting" Blah blah blah?

Jesus, dude. Get some fucking self-awareness before you start belaboring others over minor forms of the same crap you're doing. There's a reason why many are just not even bothering with you anymore, and the others are honestly just doing you a favor by interacting, more power to them. Stop blaming shit on other people's projected faults and just actually learn something about the topic / expand your awareness to see how your comments can be construed in multiple settings. You seem rigidly anchored in your own head on this, and it's kind of pointless to deal with.

Damn. I told myself not to even bother anymore, yet here I am.
 

Brontosaurie

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Srsly? You post twice, your first post is about 80% invective.

no it was 0 % invective toward my opponent. i cursed some stuff, like stupid prejudiced mindsets that make "mental illness" a "label" and the baseless reactionary concept of "gender". i used rough language. oh the fuck no. what are you trying to do?

it's a debate. the arguments matter. a curse word directed at something extraneous (in this case mostly toward something that's even a common enemy among the debatants) cannot be compared to a flawed deceitful disingenuous populist ad hominem argument. you really doing this?

your post is 100 % invective. i don't care though. every "constructive" aspect of your "criticism" is based on deliberate misunderstanding cause you don't like me and you have 0 ability for impersonal discussion.

YES i'm a transphobic and an ADD-phobic and a cancerpatient-phobic and a dyslexia-phobic. i phobe everything. i'm just so evil and mean and non-understanding and stuck in my head. oh no oh no oh no!!!! i write arguments instead of courtesies and science chit-chat on INTPforum oh no!!! my humour is different from yours and i don't give no cosy vibes. i use curses instead of dishonest arguments. OH NO! redbaron is blatantly and shamelessly ignoring one of my core arguments, but i'm the dishonest brickhead one am i not. cause you two joke about cats and chit-chat about science togetha. that's rational. that's impartial and open minded. GOT IT JUST RIGHT DIDN'T U =P lol what a joke.

and you pulled the "no one here likes you" card; WOW

tell me what knowledge i lack on the matter, and how my comments may be construed in multiple settings. pls
 

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Jesus, dude. Get some fucking self-awareness before you start belaboring others over minor forms of the same crap you're doing.
There's a reason why many are just not even bothering with you anymore, and the others are honestly just doing you a favor by interacting, more power to them.
I have to point out that you express a similarly close minded attitude. I can see Bronto's direction and goal as workable given externally observable inconvenience that TG people have to go through.

It's not about picking a side and sticking to it, whilst replying "no" to the opposite and I see both "fronts" currently focusing on that.

Interesting analogical mechanisms for example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotemnophilia
Apotemnophilia has been studied for a number of years to determine whether this disorder is actually neurological or psychological.[1] However, in-depth research related to apotemnophilia and its correlation to the mind and body are still not clear. Recent research has shown small breakthroughs such that apotemnophiles are three times more likely to want removal of a left limb than right, in accordance with damage to the right parietal lobe, and also in concordance with sufferers of somatoparaphrenia; in addition, skin conductance response is significantly different above and below the line of desired amputation, and the line of desired amputation remains stable over time, with the desire often beginning in early childhood.[1] Among a convenience sample of 52 apotemnophiles recruited from internet groups, the great majority wanted a single leg removed, cut above the knee.[18] There are parallels between apotemnophilia as a motivation for body integrity identity disorder and autogynephilia as a motivation for some cases of male-to-female gender identity disorder.[19][20]
Brontosaurie said:
gender can be anything. gender means nothing.
I also agree "gender" is a meaningless label. However, defining sex is all about labels, aside for the physical characteristics, so it happens in both places.
Guess it's nice when people accept others for being 70% cake and 30% lemon juice.
 

onesteptwostep

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On the core I side with bronto, but as to labeling it as a mental illness I think isn't useful, like already stated.

Imo the problem comes from sexuality so being emphasized in culture, so that a person let's say, with a more feminine characteristic feels like he has to look and be like a female in order feel satisfied with himself. Put the guy in some primitive tribe or some camp down in an island somewhere, without all the trimmings of capitalist, modern civilization and into the wild, and I can bet that that guy won't think about himself as being trapped in some guy's body or some other nonsense. It's in essence cultural a misadaptation imo, that of not being able to adapt to one's own (sexualized) culture. The Japanese princess Masako has a problem that's somewhat like it (adjustment disorder) She has a hard time adjusting to royalty and it causes her immense distress. She doesn't feel like the Japanese Crown Princess but she has to act like it. It's once you start labeling things, you program that person to feel or become what they are not supposed to be- and I think it just makes it worse. I don't think this was an issue back in ancient times. If you had a penis you wore certain things and you did certain things. If you didn't and if you had a vagina (giggles), you did the stuff that was suited to your own sex.

The problem would be, if it weren't labeled as a mental illness is that, it would lead others to think that this behavior is normative, which might have consequences. The generations after us would need to reclaim it for themselves if it were the case. It also can lend hand to cultural decadence. Being a 'transgender' is such a mushfest because all these people who claim to be transgender have different accounts of how they experience it and how they developed into having it, like rb said like a page before.

On the post of the two-spirit people down in Latin america though, it's unclear whether those people were actually psychologically sound homosexuals in the first place. Imo I think they were just male schizophrenics. Studies on that are still unclear.
 

Lapis Lazuli

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On the core I side with bronto, but as to labeling it as a mental illness I think isn't useful, like already stated.

Imo the problem comes from sexuality so being emphasized in culture, so that a person let's say, with a more feminine characteristic feels like he has to look and be like a female in order feel satisfied with himself. Put the guy in some primitive tribe or some camp down in an island somewhere, without all the trimmings of capitalist, modern civilization and into the wild, and I can bet that that guy won't think about himself as being trapped in some guy's body or some other nonsense. It's in essence cultural a misadaptation imo, that of not being able to adapt to one's own (sexualized) culture. The Japanese princess Masako has a problem that's somewhat like it (adjustment disorder) She has a hard time adjusting to royalty and it causes her immense distress. She doesn't feel like the Japanese Crown Princess but she has to act like it. It's once you start labeling things, you program that person to feel or become what they are not supposed to be- and I think it just makes it worse. I don't think this was an issue back in ancient times. If you had a penis you wore certain things and you did certain things. If you didn't and if you had a vagina (giggles), you did the stuff that was suited to your own sex.

The problem would be, if it weren't labeled as a mental illness is that, it would lead others to think that this behavior is normative, which might have consequences. The generations after us would need to reclaim it for themselves if it were the case. It also can lend hand to cultural decadence. Being a 'transgender' is such a mushfest because all these people who claim to be transgender have different accounts of how they experience it and how they developed into having it, like rb said like a page before.

On the post of the two-spirit people down in Latin america though, it's unclear whether those people were actually psychologically sound homosexuals in the first place. Imo I think they were just male schizophrenics. Studies on that are still unclear.

There is a basis for this type of thought perpetuated in classical Greece and it’s related to the execution of Socrates. There were infrequent actual hermaphrodites, so the quality got attributed to the god Dionysus. To make a long story short, we have a similar problem when dealing with the categories “true” and “false,” instead of “male” and “female.”

Enter: deconstruction and Godel.
 

onesteptwostep

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But wouldn't that go under 'transexual' and not transgender?

For all intents and purposes you either are male or female, any other thing is an abnormality and an outlier, though whether to call it an mental illness is another matter.

I'm not trying to categorizing them into true and false here, no.

edit: it's late here so I won't be able to comment more, will be off
 

Haim

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On the core I side with bronto, but as to labeling it as a mental illness I think isn't useful, like already stated.

Imo the problem comes from sexuality so being emphasized in culture, so that a person let's say, with a more feminine characteristic feels like he has to look and be like a female in order feel satisfied with himself. Put the guy in some primitive tribe or some camp down in an island somewhere, without all the trimmings of capitalist, modern civilization and into the wild, and I can bet that that guy won't think about himself as being trapped in some guy's body or some other nonsense. It's in essence cultural a misadaptation imo, that of not being able to adapt to one's own (sexualized) culture. The Japanese princess Masako has a problem that's somewhat like it (adjustment disorder) She has a hard time adjusting to royalty and it causes her immense distress. She doesn't feel like the Japanese Crown Princess but she has to act like it. It's once you start labeling things, you program that person to feel or become what they are not supposed to be- and I think it just makes it worse. I don't think this was an issue back in ancient times. If you had a penis you wore certain things and you did certain things. If you didn't and if you had a vagina (giggles), you did the stuff that was suited to your own sex.

The problem would be, if it weren't labeled as a mental illness is that, it would lead others to think that this behavior is normative, which might have consequences. The generations after us would need to reclaim it for themselves if it were the case. It also can lend hand to cultural decadence. Being a 'transgender' is such a mushfest because all these people who claim to be transgender have different accounts of how they experience it and how they developed into having it, like rb said like a page before.

On the post of the two-spirit people down in Latin america though, it's unclear whether those people were actually psychologically sound homosexuals in the first place. Imo I think they were just male schizophrenics. Studies on that are still unclear.
If it is isn't illness it is normal?"it" is it no bad "it" or good "it".
Illness is something to avoid,a person need to be himself when you dont let him,when you say him is wrong an illness,it will cause a depression,depression is mantal illness ,the cause of the problem is society.
 

Lapis Lazuli

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But wouldn't that go under 'transexual' and not transgender?

For all intents and purposes you either are male or female, any other thing is an abnormality and an outlier, though whether to call it an mental illness is another matter.

I'm not trying to categorizing them into true and false here, no.

edit: it's late here so I won't be able to comment more, will be off

They didn’t have the language to classify it the way we do, so I’m not sure they could make these fine linguistic distinctions when the behavior was what they would be concerned with.

We are speaking about general evolutionary categories, not something that is as precise as programming language, though the analogy says it all.
 

crippli

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Without abnormalities, we would still be monkeys.

The problem here is the premise, that there are two sexes. Nature have shown us that it is a spectrum. From very feminine to very masculine. With hermaphrodites and inter sexed people in the middle. Most people isn't going to be all that far from the center. A view on nature where reality is believed by on or two aspects to create a whole is interesting in it self, I wonder where this comes from, as I can not see it reflected in nature.

When one get the premise wrong, one will also get the conclusion wrong.
 

Brontosaurie

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Without abnormalities, we would still be monkeys.

The problem here is the premise, that there are two sexes. Nature have shown us that it is a spectrum. From very feminine to very masculine. With hermaphrodites and inter sexed people in the middle. Most people isn't going to be all that far from the center. A view on nature where reality is believed by on or two aspects to create a whole is interesting in it self, I wonder where this comes from, as I can not see it reflected in nature.

When one get the premise wrong, one will also get the conclusion wrong.

what sexes exist beyond sperm and egg producers? it's not the sex that is spectral, it's secondary sexual characteristics.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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what sexes exist beyond sperm and egg producers? it's not the sex that is spectral, it's secondary sexual characteristics.
There is sexual hermaphroditism / being able to produce both sperm and eggs.

There is also sexless reproduction. Which could count as "neutral" sex.
 

Brontosaurie

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There is sexual hermaphroditism / being able to produce both sperm and eggs.

There is also sexless reproduction. Which could count as "neutral" sex.

hermaphrodites have both sexes, or varying sex. it doesn't undermine the binarity of sex.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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hermaphrodites have both sexes, or varying sex. it doesn't undermine the binarity of sex.
Nothing creates the binarity in the first place. Other than reproductive purposes how is biology of definitive importance in the matters of deciding given individual health derived from their fitness.

Also I want to update my view on TG a bit.

There are mental disorders that influence the perspectives about the sex of the individuals affected, in some cases making them desire a change or identify with something else.

TG proper as a phenomenon is the observable genetic, or otherwise predisposition of the people whose bodies and in many cases brains vary slightly or significantly from their obvious sex representatives. I wouldn't call it a disorder, if there are no mental challenges and the behaviour can be attributed to the neural makeup, or different functioning of the body.
 

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This was an interesting debate. Bronto, I wanted to side with you because in the vast majority of cases, being "transsexual" is highly correlated with being mentally unwell. The evidence for this is the fact that TG/TS people have a much higher risk of committing suicide. My dearest childhood friend committed suicide by throwing himself (herself) in front of a subway train in NYC. Also, I think others on this forum were far too vicious in their attacks and pretty narrow-minded as well.

That said, because the word "transsexual" has a long and sordid history, it's apparently being abandoned by the psychiatric community in favor of gender dysphoria. This change is intentional. The new DSM V aims at removing the stigma associated with TG even though there was a concern this would limit their access to healthcare. Ultimately, there are some people with GD that don't feel a level of distress that prevents them from functioning "normally" in society. The new term takes this into account and makes it easier for those people to not be stigmatized. The issue really is the level of distress that the individual feels. As far as the psychiatric community is concerned, if the patient is not distressed/able to function "normally" (whatever that means...), then it's not a mental illness.

DSM 5
 

crippli

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what sexes exist beyond sperm and egg producers? it's not the sex that is spectral, it's secondary sexual characteristics.
Two sexes is a human definition. We are free to define anything as we like. A Theory is a simplification. A clitoris is an underdeveloped penis. Or a penis a supersized clitoris if one prefer to view it this way. What and how much develops is decided by instructions- genes, and hormones. Everyone got everything. Start hormone treatment on an infant at conceptions, you should get whatever sex you desire regardless of chromosomes.
hermaphrodites have both sexes, or varying sex. it doesn't undermine the binarity of sex.
All humans have both sexes. There is only hormone doses that make some stuff develop and some remain undeveloped. For some a lot of stuff develops, for other much less. Hermaphrodites have got it all. All is developed.

A lot of people doesn't produce eggs and sperm, especially that can be fertilized. Why, because the hormones developed a bit different. Biologically these should not want to be mothers and fathers? Right? No. They still want to. Hormone treatment often times make this possible. Are they insane? Why would they want children when they are biologically made to not have them? Is it vanity, because other people have children? instincts? Other biologically factors that overrides this one small hormone instruction. What could be the reasons they readjust their hormone levels in an attempt to have their bodies perform as they would want it to do?

Everyone is not supposed to have children. It's something most can do, but not all. It would be like saying all babies are the same. A baby is a baby. As is true in the scope of species. With that perspective one could also say a male is a male. But it's just not true. Males and females get reclassified all the time when they are older.

Note that a male have nothing to do with chromosomes. The only thing that labels a child a female is a visual check. It would be like saying this house is built by engineers when it is a shelter built by children. It's inaccurate. Advanced science is not used to determine sex. It is a 10 seconds inspection by a nurse, doctor or whatever. Do you want to build your life on this persons fleeting impression by a scheme that in the most idealistic of interpretations is simplistic?
 

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Brontosaurie said:
there are two sexes. gender can be anything. gender means nothing. the concept of "gender" is completely superfluous and impedes understanding of sex and sex identity and hormonal expression and dimorphic adaptions etc. it's a reactionary activitst campaign that just maintains old prejudice/segregation in circulation with appeals to collective guilt, functioning much as a successor of christianity. "gender", that's an unwarranted label for you.

The binary model of sex is based on your genitalia, and the entire reason for gender is that actually understanding the psychology of a given sex just isn't as simple as separating them into category one and two.

People's expression of their sex is ambiguous by nature. The concept of gender improves our understanding of how different people have different genetic expression. So the model becomes more ambiguous, that's not a bad thing. Whenever new discoveries are made, models shift and change.


i'm not "labeling" transsexuality as an illness in the sense of oppressive stigmatizing psychiatry.

I know your own personal intentions aren't to stigmatize, that's not the point people are making.

Also you say that you aren't oppressing or stigmatizing, but then you say this:

i'm stating what it by definition is. a pervasive failure of the mind - a mental illness. a pervasive failure of the mind in self-awareness - an a priori mental illness.

It's not though. I don't consider it any kind of pervasive failure of the mind for someone to be TG.

again: the problem here is how society treats mental illness, not whether transsexuality is one.

Bullshit. The problem here is how society treats transexuals.

There's a plethora of mental illnesses that exist that aren't at all stigmatized and whereby sufferers receive adequate support. So no, it's not a blanket issue with how society treats mental illness - it's an issue with how society treats this specific issue.

so what you are doing, again, is exactly equivalent to trying to emancipate blacks by calling them white.

It's more equivent to emancipating blacks by calling them people instead of niggers.

Or by simply not suggesting that they're black because of a pervasive failure of nature.
 

onesteptwostep

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If it is isn't illness it is normal?"it" is it no bad "it" or good "it".
Illness is something to avoid,a person need to be himself when you dont let him,when you say him is wrong an illness,it will cause a depression,depression is mantal illness ,the cause of the problem is society.

It's normal in the sense that it's a process of evolution and that abnormalities happen. It isn't normal in the sense that it didn't produce a clear cut line between male and female.

If you consider hermaphrodites and transexuals normal, then are albinos normal? Kids with down syndrome? Siamese twins? Just because it happens doesn't make it normal, we have to make a line somewhere regarding normality, including what the sexes are. To label it as 'not normal' without understanding the nuance is to create a false dichotomy.
They didn’t have the language to classify it the way we do, so I’m not sure they could make these fine linguistic distinctions when the behavior was what they would be concerned with.

We are speaking about general evolutionary categories, not something that is as precise as programming language, though the analogy says it all.

Hmm tbh I don't get what you're saying, because from how you're saying it, to me, it seems like you're saying just because they couldn't make the distinction we should... not be able to label things we are able to do today..?:confused:

The part about Socrates being executed doesn't have to anything with him being a hermaphrodite (is it? idk), I thought it was more due to him engaging in pederasty iirc. I don't think that was in any sense a part of a process of 'evolution'.
Without abnormalities, we would still be monkeys.

The problem here is the premise, that there are two sexes. Nature have shown us that it is a spectrum.

No, there are abnormalities that matter and that stick, and there are abnormalities that disrupt human culture and do not stick around as much.

I don't think you understand what the spectrum is then. For all intents and purposes one side of the spectrum is male. The other side is female. Perhaps you're thinking about gender characteristics rather than sex itself(?).

Though hermaphrodites hold a special place due to their biology, it would not make sense to suddenly 'create' a new sex because of some extreme minority. They either have to conform to one of the sexes for functionality- to survive in society. But yes, this doesn't mean that the hermaphrodite should hide his/her state, it means that, when he or she has to use a commodity that's divided into the two sexes, let's say a public bathroom, he/she would have to conform to society's sexually binary faculties and norms. We are mature enough, being in the 21 century with the powers of empiricism, to realize the distinction.

But to think that being a hermaphrodite could advance the human race as a whole, and to think that if all were hermaphrodites would somehow be better for humanity- is somewhat preposterous, (though I guess it's arguable).
 

StevenM

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Taking things into consideration, I wonder if society did drop this whole rigid binary system, and accepted the plethora of sex/gender varieties, would young humans grow up never feeling wrong about who they are, and thus, the human would be well, and functional?

There's oprah-type shows reporting trans children. They have liberal, open-minded and accepting families. Yet, just when the child first learns to speak, they utter out "I don't like who I am. I'm suppose to be a girl".

I'm very skeptical of this situation with those conditions actually happening. You'd think that first, the child needs to learn what the supposed genders and sexes are, and, he would would need to be taught what roles or characteristics he compares with in those groups.
 

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Hmm tbh I don't get what you're saying, because from how you're saying it, to me, it seems like you're saying just because they couldn't make the distinction we should... not be able to label things we are able to do today..?:confused:

The part about Socrates being executed doesn't have to anything with him being a hermaphrodite (is it? idk), I thought it was more due to him engaging in pederasty iirc. I don't think that was in any sense a part of a process of 'evolution'.

My comment was about what, some, Greeks were concerned with. If a person had an ambiguous sexual orientation or identity, or was a homosexual, then it could either be duplicated or strained out by lottery. Remember Valentines Day where you exchange cards to potential relations? This comes from the Greek tradition of a lottery, but the lottery was rigged to breed particular traits into the state. (The festival of Dionysus was a lengthy state mandated drunken orgy to ensure the population didn’t wane out). The Greeks understood how inherited traits work without genetic theory.

No, I have never read anything about Socrates being a hermaphrodite. My point was how would you have expressed in ancient Greek language this instinct in some people for being of one sex but feeling like the opposite sex or attracted to the same sex, except through something like the god Dionysus. So, Dionysus represents a middle concept between male and female, thus he was hermaphroditic. The next part is reading between the lines of Plato: that Socrates understood how inherited traits worked, as well as a lot of others, but advocated the cultivation of an elite group of rulers who would control and deconstruct society so that population would not grow beyond “healthy” limits. Hence, the birth of political philosophy.
 

onesteptwostep

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I see. I'm going to narrative a bit so things are clearer.

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1) People need to have sex for humanity to go on. (which Socrates/Greeks noticed)

1.1) So humanity has developed a culture in which males would live and function in a masculine society while females would live in a sphere that is in its nature feminine. (or in case with the Greeks, they created this Dionysus festival [while in the contemporary western world the distinction and roles are more defined])

2) People whom they claim to be transgender exist today, in our binary culture, and experience dysphoria

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I think, from here, if the person comes to realize that all this binary culture crap is just a trimmings of a society that nods to procreation, he or she won't have all this dsyphoria. (theorizing)

So I guess what I talked about earlier, about people going into some tribe in a jungle, could help. He or she would do things that are normative of his/her own sex. I think that would help clear up the dysphoria (which I think is just adjustment disorder, like previously stated) and help the person come to grips with his/her own biological sexuality, without all the noise of a sexualized culture. If he/her has solid a priori knowledge of having a family, he/her would take part in coitus (and for fucks sake since sex now can mean sex with the same sex as well, we'd have to make a new word for sex that's with the opposite sex, like if you know what I mean >.> for fucks sake really. er anyway)

I think it's partly because the transgenders don't intuitively understand and live in their own sexualized cultures. Bring a transgender to a nonsexualised culture, let's say somewhere like Japan, and I'm sure his masculinity would take shape. Deprogram all that sexualized culture from his or her own culture, out of his/her head.

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But the problem here now is the problem of stigma. And to that I'd say, and I'm repeating myself: " The problem would be, if it weren't labeled as a mental illness is that, it would lead others to think that this behavior is normative, which might have consequences. The generations after us would need to reclaim it for themselves if it were the case. " aka acknowledge the nuance, i.e. more education. And people just need to be, in general, more accepting.
 

Lapis Lazuli

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And people just need to be, in general, more accepting.

More accepting, yes, but careful at the same time. Don’t forget about Descartes’ evil demon, or that Socrates was executed, because he didn’t merely talk about an elite ruling class of males with a particular disposition. He acted to bring it into reality.
 

onesteptwostep

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Yeah.

When I think of humanity and the progressive laws we make, I think of it this way.

Humanity is an ark, and the force that pulls it forward is the rationalizations and the laws (at least on the surface). But pull too much, and you snap the rope, causing a lack of direction and a general discord (or dis-rope :P).
 

J-man

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I think INTP is a mental illness. Or we all have Asperger's or something smellier.
 

onesteptwostep

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Hmm disropia dysphoria.. why do they sound so similar..
 

crippli

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I don't think you understand what the spectrum is then. For all intents and purposes one side of the spectrum is male. The other side is female. Perhaps you're thinking about gender characteristics rather than sex itself(?).
Who is to say what purpose and intents are? We didn't make humans, we just are humans. I view sex as a sexual characteristic. Not something in itself. Without hormones there would be no sexual characteristics, normal or abnormal. Without a foundation, there will be no house. Without drawings and plans, there can still be a house.

Review this interview and tell me if you think this is reality? What is binary, opposite, mutually exclusive about this?

Binary represent two mutually exclusive numbers. You can not get 0 by using 1? This is not at all what goes on in sexual development. Stuff is the same. Penis is but a secondary sexual characteristic. I'm aware this notion hurt. But it's not as grand as some would want to make it out to be. A large clitoris is perhaps the most accurate description of a penis.
 

onesteptwostep

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Oh nah, you don't have to worry about hurting anyone, or me at least, I don't put much personal feels into this issue.

The purpose of humanity, one of them, on the whole, is to procreate. If you don't want to take part in that, then that's that one particular person's choice. (especially if they can't biologically)

The penis IS a sexual characteristic, (if not the). If you can create and insert the seed, then you are male by definition. If you have both the seed and the egg.. then.. well that's another story. (asexual self-reproducing super humans?!?!)

But in terms of utility, that person is just burdening society that way. Yes we need more education, yes we need more open mindedness, but we have to be careful as to how far we go with the change, in terms of the physical manifestations of faculties which are divided by sex.

On you saying the my idea of the spectrum is of a binary one, I think you've misunderstood it. Sexuality is more of a scale. The gender is whether that number is a positive number or a negative number. The 'zero' in it technically doesn't exist. On sex, you will either get something like +0.000000001 or -0.000000001. But again, I'm not saying the person should choose, I'm just saying in order to function within society today, realistically, you need to adhere to one type of sex. (btw i started laughing when she said "he was divorcing his 5th wife")

That person technically is a biological abnormality, but on whether she wants to be a female or a male, that's up to her. Whether she wants to do surgery or not (before adolescence), that's up to the parents. But we should move to eliminate stigma, that's for sure.
 

StevenM

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The problem would be, if it weren't labeled as a mental illness is that, it would lead others to think that this behavior is normative, which might have consequences.
Uh, what consequences? What behaviour? And why are you worried about it being normal?

It's normal in the sense that it's a process of evolution and that abnormalities happen. It isn't normal in the sense that it didn't produce a clear cut line between male and female.
How are you to say what is good with life, and what is bad? What is right and what is wrong? What should be, and not be?

But to think that being a hermaphrodite could advance the human race as a whole, or to think that if all were hermaphrodites would somehow be better for humanity- is somewhat preposterous, (though I guess it's arguable).

So the purpose is to advance the human race. Are hermaphrodites and transgenders not part of that human race? Why are they exempt when considering the advancement of the human race?



1) People need to have sex for humanity to go on. (which Socrates/Greeks noticed)

I'm sure if I didn't ever have sex, humanity would still go on just fine.

1.1) So humanity has developed a culture in which males would live and function in a masculine society while females would live in a sphere that is in its nature feminine.

Just trying to open your mind a bit. Humanity didn't develop males or females. There was nobody that said with purpose, "All shall be male or female". Humans are not an artifact, nor are the differences between them. Also, I believe that it's only since very recently from the millions of years, where society made the 'code' of how to be. That code has changed many times.

I think, from here, if the person comes to realize that all this binary culture crap is just a trimmings of a society that nods to procreation, he or she won't have all this dsyphoria. (theorizing)

People don't have sex to advance humanity. They do it to get their jolly's off. Most don't even know why the hell they do it, only that it feels good. However, babies ensue. A plant doesn't sit there and think "Well, I better grow a new leaf". It just drinks and takes in energy and nutrients, and the leaves just grow.

So this strange notion people have that we all must procreate is absurd. They may as well tell everybody to grow their hair, and enforce that people sit when they tire.

If someone doesn't want to have babies, can they not make that choice? What if they choose not to ever have sex?

It causes disphoria when music can only be in C major, and mountain dew must strictly be chosen from all sodas, and rock-climbing is the only acceptable sport.

When brown haired people are the only ones righteous. When sewing is only for women, and hunting only for men.

When I enjoy A minor, and I'm eyeing ginger-ale, and I want to kick a ball around, and sew my own clothes, but told by my community that it all are signs of illness that needs attention, indeed, I'm going to end up being ill as I try to 'fix' myself from having these thoughts and urges.

Consider our fears. Some are rational, and some are irrational. Having a fear of jumping off a cliff somewhat seems rational. Avoiding grocery stores is irrational.

Having a fear of a man dressing up as a women is irrational. Well, perhaps a straight man mistakes him for a real woman, I dunno. Hardly a catastrophe in my opinion, but I may be wrong.

So I guess what I talked about earlier, about people going into some tribe in a jungle, could help. He or she would do things that are normative of his/her own sex. I think that would help clear up the dysphoria (which I think is just adjustment disorder, like previously stated) and help the person come to grips with his/her own biological sexuality.

Oh man, I completely disagree. Ostracising someone from his community is just going to make the whole deal a hell of a whoppin' worse. A social network and support is needed with a variety of different people and sexes. This is the place where everybody can learn something.

I think it's partly because the transgenders don't intuitively understand and live in their own sexualized cultures. Bring a transgender to a nonsexualised culture, let's say somewhere like Japan, and I'm sure his masculinity would take shape. Deprogram all that sexualized culture from his or her own culture, out of his/her head.

Maybe your being snide. But if not, I'm sure Japan would not make a mechanic, sport jock, next-generation John Wayne out of him any better than any other country would.

But the problem here now is the problem of stigma. And to that I'd say, and I'm repeating myself: " The generations after us would need to reclaim it for themselves if it were the case. " aka acknowledge the nuance, i.e. more education. And people just need to be, in general, more accepting.

When I think of 'acceptance', I think of finally coming to deal with something. To recognize that it may not need fixing.
 
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