You are wrong.

[Renk Fasze]

Judgment drives me insane. Most of it, i hate hearing or seeing. Some of it is necessary but very little at that.

Its really not anyone's place to place judgment on another.

Who am i to say that someone else is wrong?

You could argue black and white and i would agree. Other than that their is nothing to found a strong argument on.

Truth or not it isn't in anyone's power to force someone to change their views so judgment is a bit irrelevant in the every day sense (not written law).

The most anyone has the power to do is plant a seed.

That seed either falls on fertile ground and flourishes or it withers and dies.

I have an incredibly judgmental family.

I can remember it as a young child listening to the conversations between my father and his father. Listening to the conversations between my mother and father i knew even then that they were conversing on a heavily judgmental lines-drawn basis. Almost every conversation was a battle.

This makes for a difficult relationship at any level.

Growing up i don't think i was all that judgmental and now i have noticed how quickly i have become to judge. It comes so fast and so stron. I hate it. I know its wrong. I know its not my place. Judgment gets in the way of real living.

Sometimes I am consumed by judging what is around me. As if im anything CLOSE to perfect.

I know what im doing is bullshit but i justify it somehow.

For some people i allow exceptions. Kind of like a free pass. They can do what they like and i don't mind. I honestly couldn't tell you why.

Its all so contradictory. I can see the error and its as easy as just not judging, yet i can't seem to do it. I don't seem to know how.

Seriously, love your neighbor right?

I don't care what you do, you are still my neighbor. That is what i want because that i know is true.

 

[Da Blob]

Well, it seems that judgement fulfills different types of needs in different people: for some it feeds an overbloewn ego, for others it is a matter of keeping their world orderly as a control issue, for others it is a need to stereotype. But all in all, it is just a human fraility based more in fear than in hope. If you want to hope for a person you do not arrive at hasty judgements concerning that person...

 

[Renk Fasze]

Thanks Blob.

I don't have much of an ego.

For me i think it has become a control issue. The funny thing is that i can easily see that control is usually nothing more than an illusion in regards to life.

If you want to hope for a person you do not arrive at hasty judgments concerning that person...

Wisdom is simple, this is simple and rare.

 

[Dormouse]

But judgements are fun to throw around, and useful so long as they're temporary. They help us make predictions and decisions. In effect, any attribution of value is at heart a judgement.

Of course, flexibility is still necessary, and judgements should be thrown away without a second thought once they're proven to be false.

 

[walfin]

Seriously, love your neighbor right?

Differing notions.

"If you love your neighbour, do what is good for hir" - the judger's point of view

To us it seems like an insult.

They actually want you to treat them that way too. To tell them what's good for them. That's how I understood it from an ENFJ.

SJs are a different story, though. You should know enough by now to Nod and Smile™. Don't waste your time. Stay away, out of the fray.

Yuck. I'm being judgmental. Oops

 

[Da Blob]

Yet why bother to judge at all unless it fulfills some type of perceived need?

I used to be an INTJ until I matured into an INTP. I learned that 'false judgements' have many more negative effects than 'no judgements'. Now I wait to make a judgement until it it absolutely necessary so - I acquire more data as input to make 'proper' judgements...

 

[boradicus]

M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
A: Yes it is.
M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
A: No it isn't.
M: It is!
A: It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A: I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A: No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A: Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A: No it isn't.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!

 

[Chronomar]

Hold on here...have we judged the judgmental unfairly?

What constitutes a judgment? Making an unqualified statement? Or do qualified statements count as well? When we (as INTPs) "perceive" something, that implies (oddly) that we saw a truth (or what amounts to one) without adding the personal bias of the judgment. Or the heavy-handedness of a judgment. I somewhat consider that the most judging form of judgment of all...

 

[wadlez]

I used to be an INTJ until I matured into an INTP. I learned that 'false judgements' have many more negative effects than 'no judgements'. Now I wait to make a judgement until it it absolutely necessary so - I acquire more data as input to make 'proper' judgements...

NEIN!!! This is stupid for so many reasons. INTJ's primary funciton is Introverted iNtuition and there second function is Extroverted Thinking. If you understood the functions properly you would see that this causes a massive differences between intj's and intp's. The worst thing about INTJ's is that they hate there type and try to pretend there are INTP's or ENTJ's. A giveaway I have found from experience with INTJ's that are not INTP's is that they dont accept or fully understand MBTI.
You have always been an INTP or (most likely) you still are an INTJ.

 

[shoeless]

i agree with the OP on a micro-personal level.

however, on the grander scope of things, socially, we need judgment. SJ's do have a place in the world, believe it or not. if everything was a free-for-all, nothing would get done. it would be chaotic. if there was no judgment, murderers and rapists and thiefs would be set free. somebody has to pass judgment.

as long as that's not me, i'm okay with it.

but yeah, when it comes to smaller issues, just basic conversation and whatnot, i am disgusted by excessive judgment. half the time it's not even any of their damn business.

but i grew up with an ESTJ father who was a minister and in the military. it's left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Da Blob]

M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
A: Yes it is.
M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
A: No it isn't.
M: It is!
A: It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A: I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A: No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A: Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A: No it isn't.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!

Ahhh Yes! the philosophy of Monty Python

YouTube- Argument Clinic

 

[Da Blob]

NEIN!!! This is stupid for so many reasons. INTJ's primary funciton is Introverted iNtuition and there second function is Extroverted Thinking. If you understood the functions properly you would see that this causes a massive differences between intj's and intp's. The worst thing about INTJ's is that they hate there type and try to pretend there are INTP's or ENTJ's. A giveaway I have found from experience with INTJ's that are not INTP's is that they dont accept or fully understand MBTI.
You have always been an INTP or (most likely) you still are an INTJ.

This is simply not true. The MBTI is a self-report of preferences and nothing more objective than that. A personality is not set in stone, but changes as one matures. Certainly the idea of sitting back and keeping options open is a more mature stance, (for me at least) I am consistent in testing as a P rather than J, 54-58% - a matter of one or two questions and not a "massive difference" whatsoever...

 

[shoeless]

i wouldn't say personalities change as much as they develop.

but that's just me.

 

[NeverAmI]

I think invalid inferences that lead to unrealistic expectations are the problem here. I am a VERY skeptical persion, not to say my epistemological view revolves around knowledge being impossible to gain, but imo we can never truly know how sound that knowledge is without full comprehension, which is something we supposedly can never gain in this life, although we seem to get closer every day.

Perhaps we have the expectation that people's expecations shouldn't be so high? I get this way often myself. Ultimately, I have an inner expectation that I should be meeting the expectations of those around me, but once I lost that expectation in myself, I found myself much happier, and more able to complete the tasks that truly benefit me, and in turn benefits everyone else since I become a better person.

Now, if your actions that benefit you harm others, well that may not benefit you in the long run and that may conclude that we must look at the world in the largest scope possible when inferring what is best for oneself.

Edit: Now when it comes to attempting to get someone else to understand your point of view, you are absolutely correct, you cannot simply shove a fact in someone's face and automatically expect to get positive results in most cases. Ultimtely the person must make the discovery of such arguments, sound or unsound, on their own. Although if one is at a more influencial state in their life, accepting those arguments presented by others may be MUCH easier.

Great thread!

 

[Weliddryn]

Judgment drives me insane. Most of it, i hate hearing or seeing. Some of it is necessary but very little at that.

Judgment is the prelude to action and action is necessary in a practical reality which is what we reside in.

Its really not anyone's place to place judgment on another.

It isn't until somebody /makes/ it their 'place' to do so. And this can happen, in similar ways that one can attribute meaning and value to objects or empirical data.

Who am i to say that someone else is wrong?

A personal preference derived from an inclination to impartiality? Not all share this, humans may be objectively equal but their qualities will differ and be spread out emphasizing different aspects.

You could argue black and white and i would agree. Other than that their is nothing to found a strong argument on.

What constitutes as a 'strong' argument?

Truth or not it isn't in anyone's power to force someone to change their views so judgment is a bit irrelevant in the every day sense (not written law).

It can be their power if they make it so. their degree of affect will depend on those whom they attempt to sway, of course. Truth is not always the priority.

The most anyone has the power to do is plant a seed.

Perhaps this is more an ideal?

That seed either falls on fertile ground and flourishes or it withers and dies.

Degrees...

I have an incredibly judgmental family.

I can remember it as a young child listening to the conversations between my father and his father. Listening to the conversations between my mother and father i knew even then that they were conversing on a heavily judgmental lines-drawn basis. Almost every conversation was a battle.

This makes for a difficult relationship at any level.

Growing up i don't think i was all that judgmental and now i have noticed how quickly i have become to judge. It comes so fast and so stron. I hate it. I know its wrong. I know its not my place. Judgment gets in the way of real living.

Sometimes I am consumed by judging what is around me. As if im anything CLOSE to perfect.

I know what im doing is bullshit but i justify it somehow.

For some people i allow exceptions. Kind of like a free pass. They can do what they like and i don't mind. I honestly couldn't tell you why.

Its all so contradictory. I can see the error and its as easy as just not judging, yet i can't seem to do it. I don't seem to know how.

Seriously, love your neighbor right?

I don't care what you do, you are still my neighbor. That is what i want because that i know is true.

Think to your motives in passing your judgment and the subtle shifts of context in each situation. It may seem contradictory until you further your understanding of the 'why'.

I can empathize with a judgmental family and it is depressing/frustrating but it seems that much social interaction is based on aligning biases and values with those around you (if you seek to strengthen a bond) or arguing against the biases and values if you wish to establish more independence. Perhaps it is a subliminal regulation of the population in particular groups which would lead to better management with the differentiations of cliques formed and also to aid progression of various viewpoints to an external medium (our reality).

 

[Da Blob]

i wouldn't say personalities change as much as they develop.

but that's just me.

Yes, I believe that is true. One can look at Erikson's Lifetime Developmental Model from a POV of personality development. Actually, the P/J scale is a good example of his identity crisis , Stagnation versus Generation. This stage which I have only recently resolved at the age of 50, did call for me to make some adjustments in my personality from slightly J to slightly P...

Re: NIA, that's what personality is all about - it is a component of our social identity, how we meet Others' expectations in the Roles that are assigned to us in this Drama. A person that fulfills expectations is a 'good' person, dependable and predictable etc.

 

[NeverAmI]

I can empathize with a judgmental family and it is depressing/frustrating but it seems that much social interaction is based on aligning biases and values with those around you (if you seek to strengthen a bond) or arguing against the biases and values if you wish to establish more independence. Perhaps it is a subliminal regulation of the population in particular groups which would lead to better management with the differentiations of cliques formed and also to aid progression of various viewpoints to an external medium (our reality).

Ahh, good argument! So, everyone who has a view on something believes it is the best view for life based on one inference or another, or multiples.

So what actually keeps us from considering other perspectives?

Why is everyone so closed to openly analyzing life? Well, besides the idea that an other-worldly entity mandates that we don't question such things.

Is it emotional? Simply multiple incorrect inferences? All of the above?

 

[NeverAmI]

Re: NIA, that's what personality is all about - it is a component of our social identity, how we meet Others' expectations in the Roles that are assigned to us in this Drama. A person that fulfills expectations is a 'good' person, dependable and predictable etc.

So very true, I suddently have the urge to study sociology to observe all of the different 'good's from the past.

 

[Da Blob]

So very true, I suddently have the urge to study sociology to observe all of the different 'good's from the past.

Yes, and perhaps I should elaborate. Fatherhood is such a socially-imposed Role. So what makes a good father? Like all social Roles, fatherhood is just a list of expectations. So even a male that is an immoral criminal can be a great father if he meets or exceeds those expectations. If you note, some of the most notorious sociopaths, the mass murderers, were not even suspected to be such by the people around him or her. Why? Because they fulfilled all the expectations of those around them - as good actors and actresses, they played their Roles in Masks and only to their victims did they reveal their true faces...

 

[Weliddryn]

Ahh, good argument! So, everyone who has a view on something believes it is the best view for life based on one inference or another, or multiples.

The viewpoint matters less, in cases. Much of the time, it is simply to strengthen social bonds, not necessarily that it is the best.
Objectives are crucial to bear in mind, I think.

So what actually keeps us from considering other perspectives?

Natural capacity, goals/motivations, context of the view portrayed, many things.

Why is everyone so closed to openly analyzing life? Well, besides the idea that an other-worldly entity mandates that we don't question such things.

Why would they? Value is not placed in that type of thought, perhaps?

Is it emotional? Simply multiple incorrect inferences? All of the above?

It can be, or it might be /for/ emotions.

 

[Renk Fasze]

What constitutes a judgment? Making an unqualified statement? Or do qualified statements count as well? When we (as INTPs) "perceive" something, that implies (oddly) that we saw a truth (or what amounts to one) without adding the personal bias of the judgment. Or the heavy-handedness of a judgment. I somewhat consider that the most judging form of judgment of all...

- Chronomar


Pow, you put my thoughts into words better than i could.

So a judgment that is more of a distinction which colors the sides very clearly?

That is much heavier.

A judgment MAY have some foundation in a truth i have constructed i still don't see it as my place to cast it.

I shouldn't walk through life instantly noticing things that don't line up with what i think is right and then act upon it. I hardly think that is my place or anyone's place let alone the fact that it is unhealthy for the one casting judgment and those who might receive.

Judgment itself is not wrong, its when and how it is used.

So what actually keeps us from considering other perspectives?

-Neverami

Fear of change, fear of the unknown? I think most people would rather stick with something that has proven to function rather than attempt to make an improvement and try something new.

Shoeless - I'd shake your hand.

 

[wadlez]

The MBTI is a self-report of preferences and nothing more objective than that

MBTI was created to apply carl jungs theorys of personality typing and functions. Its an application of a massive collaboration of psychoanalytic theory produced by jung in his life time. To the lay-man each function is just a sliding measure or continuum of a observable group of human characteristics. To someone who has invested time to understand carl jung or MBTI each function has origins in the human mind and is more than just a description of observed behaviour.
A function is the minds orienation to how one judges and perceives objects and where there energy is draw from. Each function has a direct implication and effect on the working of other functions (T represses F) where the overall result of these interactions is basically your concious mind, how you think, feel and view the world (also affects your unconcious which then inturn affects your concious again, complicated).
It is a massive deep theory, not just the womans weekly personality test you would read while in a waiting room (which every INTJ I have met would like it to be).

 

[Words]

How to reduce the overly judgmental attitude:

not care.
Divagate and form another topic.

 

[NeverAmI]

The viewpoint matters less, in cases. Much of the time, it is simply to strengthen social bonds, not necessarily that it is the best.
Objectives are crucial to bear in mind, I think.

Yes, but if it is to strengthen social bonds, then have they not inferred that social bonds are important to life, that having good friends leads to a better life?

Can you elaborate by what you mean with "objectives are crucial to bear in mind?"

Natural capacity, goals/motivations, context of the view portrayed, many things.

So they don't consider the perspectives of others or a robust solution as beneficial to their goals/motivations?

It can be, or it might be /for/ emotions.

So people make decisions to actually influence their emotions, they do things that make them feel a certain way. But to an extent we all do, right? Does it just depend on the scope?

For example, we might hold out on a beneficial feeling for a long time because we logically understand that there will be more emotional benefit over time, does that mean that thinking versus feeling is simply a matter of scope, does the jungian feeler place less emphasis on logic due to a short-sighted hedonistic nature?

I don't completely understand my own thirst for knowledge. I am impassioned. That passion makes it seem as though I am an F just like any other. However, I am less tactful unless I see a logical benefit. In most cases I *do* see a logical benefit in being tactful. I don't prefer to see people suffer, but if I believe it will benefit someone in the long run then I don't have any particular issue with it.

 

[Weliddryn]

Yes, but if it is to strengthen social bonds, then have they not inferred that social bonds are important to life, that having good friends leads to a better life?

Can you elaborate by what you mean with "objectives are crucial to bear in mind?"

Yes, they would have. Nice catch. ;p

As for my other statement, this would simply affect how much judgment would be used and how it would used... but this brings to mind the idea of inactivity being action, itself. Judgment would be inescapable?

So they don't consider the perspectives of others or a robust solution as beneficial to their goals/motivations?

That's highly relative...?

So people make decisions to actually influence their emotions, they do things that make them feel a certain way. But to an extent we all do, right? Does it just depend on the scope?

I don't think I specified anyone...? But, probably- I tend to think in degrees, rather than absolutes, most of the time.

For example, we might hold out on a beneficial feeling for a long time because we logically understand that there will be more emotional benefit over time, does that mean that thinking versus feeling is simply a matter of scope, does the jungian feeler place less emphasis on logic due to a short-sighted hedonistic nature?

I'd hesitate to say that Feelers would be more short-sighted than Thinkers- not to mention I tend to think that Feelers more revolve around cooperation and morality rather than emotion. :/ I'd normally tend to keep MBTI discussions to MBTI topics rather than merging them with psychology ones, but perhaps I'm categorizing too much.

I don't completely understand my own thirst for knowledge. I am impassioned. That passion makes it seem as though I am an F just like any other. However, I am less tactful unless I see a logical benefit. In most cases I *do* see a logical benefit in being tactful. I don't prefer to see people suffer, but if I believe it will benefit someone in the long run then I don't have any particular issue with it.

Values, you highly value knowledge or understanding which causes a drive to it. It's kind of a paradox? You value the Truth but to understand you attempt an objective understanding, devoid of values... and yet, you are driven by the value you place in the Truth.

 

[Renk Fasze]

How to reduce the overly judgmental attitude:

not care.
Divagate and form another topic.

H-Words

I wish i knew of an off switch. It is probably as easy as not caring but im having a hard time just not caring.

 

[Words]

H-Words

I wish i knew of an off switch. It is probably as easy as not caring but im having a hard time just not caring.

You can't identify points in thinking where you have judged too far? Analyze and reflect on the conclusions you've made? and if dangerous, form another topic.

 

[Renk Fasze]

Sure i can find the points where i have judged too far. That's the easy part.

I can analyze and reflect myself out of the corner i have put myself in and then lead myself right back to that corner....that's why im asking a bunch of people i don't know my friend : )

As far as forming another topic that doesn't solve the problem that just avoids it.

 

[Words]

Sure i can find the points where i have judged too far. That's the easy part.

I can analyze and reflect myself out of the corner i have put myself in and then lead myself right back to that corner....that's why im asking a bunch of people i don't know my friend : )

As far as forming another topic that doesn't solve the problem that just avoids it.

Avoidance of truth, if only to avoid awesome negative, 70% true, results, is something to consider. Belittle your ability.

 

[Renk Fasze]

Easier said that done dude, ive tried as many things as i can think of and it doesn't take the edge off.

 

[Jesin]

I can analyze and reflect myself out of the corner i have put myself in and then lead myself right back to that corner...

Point-counterpoint loops come up a lot. When you notice you're back where you started, don't just stop there. Try to remember why you left. Go around the loop a few more times if you have to, and become a bit more familiar with its layout, before you choose a point in the middle to land on.

 

[Renk Fasze]

Thanks Jesin, ill give that a shot.