Wonka's Street Corner Preaching (split from Degrees of Freedom)

[Brontosaurie]

ugh

 

[Grayman]

ugh

I know I am disgusting but I am not sure what you 'feel' is disgusting at this particular moment, Mr negative feeler, you.

Tell me so that I might see yet another method for perceiving myself.

 

[Jennywocky]

I know I am disgusting but I am not sure what you 'feel' is disgusting at this particular moment, Mr negative feeler, you.

Tell me so that I might see yet another method for perceiving myself.

Now, now, I'm sure he is just experiencing a bit of bad digestion, perhaps from overeating at lunch or some other thing....

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

God has never raped or tortured or molested or murdered anyone, that's just absurd.

Sinful human beings rape and torture and molest and murder.

Such a narrow understanding of the nature of God...

God is all powerful and all controlling, and it is by his will that people are raped, tortured, murdered, children are abused, beaten, molested. He wills malaria, famine and plague. These are all manifeststions of his will, because absolutely nothing happens that is not his will.

I see now that this is all okay, because there's a verse in the bible that justifies this as all just being in the pursuit of ultimate good - thereby making these things okay.

Which begs the question: if god is all powerful, all knowing and in sovereign control of everything, why does he not simply enact ultimate good? Why would such a being use such roundabout methods to achieve his goals?

I guess maybe he's all powerful...just really stupid and inefficient?

What is good without evil to contrast it against; and without one or the other, does the scale of relative experience not just slide towards the opposite extreme? In a society devoid of broken legs, mosquito bites become all the more painful.

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

And yet, nothing happens outside of God's will remember? If those sinners exist in the first place, God must have willed it. If they rape and torture, God must have willed it.

The only way it could not be so, is if God did not will it. But then that means things DO happen outside of God's will, and he is not in sovereign control of everything.

The ultimate manifestation of an ominscient/ all powerful Creator completely self assured of any given positive outcome is the act of limitless self-restraint (non-interventionism). Esp in the face of what might seem like a hopeless situation.

For example, not intervening while His Son was dying on the cross served a larger purpose. As does the suffering that inevitably results from the sins/ errors/ omissions of humankind.

Killed before your time was up? God has a plan for that. You will still be the winner. For example, no problem He already knew what you would have done with your life anyways plus you are in a better place and don't have to wait to die to get there.

Robbed/ cheated/ stolen from? God has a plan for that where the perpetrator and perpetrated get justice.

etc etc etc Victim of any injustice resulting from the sins/ errors/ omissions of others? In the long run He will sort it out.

Humanoids have a hard time grasping the idea of eternity though. They think that God must not care (or not exist at all) if he doesn't rain lightning bolts immediately upon murderers and shoot believers with perpetual rainbows and sunshine. This perspective is terribly short sighted and self defeating (as far as the development of the eternal self-consciousness goes).

Hence the need/ benefit/ burden of faith. And patience.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

(non-interventionism).

God is Ron Paul...?

Killed before your time was up? God has a plan for that. You will still be the winner.

I'd agree with this only in the sense that "reincarnation" as a (A.K.A. my personal) pretext necessitates the eventual fulfillment of all possible outcomes.

Robbed/ cheated/ stolen from? God has a plan for that where the perpetrator and perpetrated get justice.

etc etc etc Victim of any injustice resulting from the sins/ errors/ omissions of others? In the long run He will sort it out.

I don't like the whole "plan" thing. It's at direct odds with reality. It also alludes to karma, something else incompatible with moral reality, and hints at inaction being the righteous path to problem-solving, which is just overflowing with fail.

Humanoids have a hard time grasping the idea of eternity though. They think that God must not care (or not exist at all) if he doesn't rain lightning bolts immediately upon murderers and shoot believers with perpetual rainbows and sunshine. This perspective is terribly short sighted and self defeating (as far as the development of the eternal self-consciousness goes).

*High five* Though I don't see how eternity relates to the rainbows and sunshine.

 

[redbaron]

God wills child rape, torture and molestation so that he can eventually even it out and create, 'justice'.

What lovely little bubbles of cognitive dissonance believers seem to be able to build for themselves.

 

[Jennywocky]

God wills child rape, torture and molestation so that he can eventually even it out and create, 'justice'.

What lovely little bubbles of cognitive dissonance believers seem to be able to build for themselves.

I'm inclined to agree... not to mention the straw men in that post. I think critics are typically far more reasonable in the criticism than "expecting immediate lightning bolts against violators and rainbows for believers," and even reasonable criticism goes unanswered.

In the end, the only response that is really observable is a human response to human tragedy and evil. Human beings either intervene or do not. "God's views" are merely conjecture, we can only observe how people respond to the suffering of others.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

God wills child rape, torture and molestation so that he can eventually even it out and create, 'justice'.

What lovely little bubbles of cognitive dissonance believers seem to be able to build for themselves.

Nah. The point is more like: child rape, torture, and molestation are little more than social constructs and are not objectively wrong. Left-hand path, bro. (The alternate involves sacrifice in the pursuit of a single ideal. Often the sacrifice includes "religion" itself.)

 

[Hadoblado]

Erm... I know these arguments have been had ad infinitum but...

Any justification of evil as caused by God begs the question of God's power.

If good is derived from God's will, then it should not be required that there be evil to contrast it against, as God is omnipotent.

If God's will is derived from what is good, then God adheres to the will of the universe, and there is something greater than God.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

If good is derived from God's will, then it should not be required that there be evil to contrast it against, as God is all omnipotent.

If God's will is derived from what is good, then God adheres to the will of the universe, and there is something greater than God.

How else is good identified?

My general point being God's will is neutral/is the universe.

The "God's-will-is-always-good"-ers and the "God-shall-smite-us-all-because-no-one-is-worthy"-ers are usually the ones trying to get your money.

 

[Minuend]

Spoiler

 

[redbaron]

How else is good identified?

Moral relativism is useless, you'll eventually realise it.

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

God wills child rape, torture and molestation so that he can eventually even it out and create, 'justice'.

No. This is the will of humanoids who have chosen evil. He permits it so as to not undermine the supreme law of free will.

Eternity is a long time. Justice will not be denied of the innocents made to suffer nor those who violate the free will of the innocents with their free will.

For the present earthly temporal sphere, the sun shines on both do gooders and evil doers. A test for the do gooders to try their faith and strengthen it. A big fat Fail for the evil doers as proved by their own acts...even if only realized eventually the moment of pure justice will be arrived at.

This way, by allowing free will of even the most evil of humanoids, before the judgement bar, no one is left with an excuse for their evil or good choices (God already knows each individual's soul better than we even know ourselves so He may have intervened and not even setup this life as a test yet we must have the opportunity to prove ourselves to ourselves such that in the final analysis we are left with no excuses of "God (fate/ whatever) made me do it")

Keep the faith. You can't get something from nothing (otherwise its a violation of the law of conservation of mass and energy). I.e. have confidence/ faith/ knowledge that your soul existed before this temporal life and that it is eternal. Specifically, this life is not all there is. Do the best you can in this life and you will prepare well for the next. And so on...and on...and on...

 

[Brontosaurie]

I know I am disgusting but I am not sure what you 'feel' is disgusting at this particular moment, Mr negative feeler, you.

Tell me so that I might see yet another method for perceiving myself.

what

are you wonkavision?

otherwise no need to listen to my expression of negative feels

 

[redbaron]

No. This is the will of humanoids who have chosen evil. He permits it so as to not undermine the supreme law of free will.

Ah I see.

So god doesn't control everything then, and things do happen outside of his will - he permits terrible things in the name of some, 'supreme law' of free will.

Which now means that god is not all powerful after all, and is subject to this supreme law. Interesting. If this law of free will is so supreme, why do people not have the free will to decline judgement by god? Suppose it's someone's will that they aren't judged - it's a violation of the supreme law of free will to judge them.

So why then does god adhere to the supreme law of free will, only to violate it later on? Also, all we've really done now is replace god with another supreme entity in this supreme law.

So now we've solved the issue of god willing rape, molestation, torture, murder etc. - he doesn't actually will them, he just sits by and lets them happen. I'm still curious though how these, 'sinners' arise in the first place. You'd think a supreme being would be capable of creating a species that would be capable of naturally avoiding sin.

A big fat Fail for the evil doers as proved by their own acts...

Well hang on. They were created that way. If they have an inclination towards evil, god intended it. Unless you're saying god is incompetent and made a mistake.

This way, by allowing free will of even the most evil of humanoids, before the judgement bar, no one is left with an excuse for their evil or good choices.

This was a somewhat okay point until you went ahead and said:

God already knows each individual's soul better than we even know ourselves

So why does a supreme being that knows everything we're going to do anyway wait for us to do it to pass judgement?

The reasoning that it leaves us with, 'no excuses' is not valid.

You can't get something from nothing (otherwise its a violation of the law of conservation of mass and energy)

A few things:

- Uncertainty principle, quantum mechanics and special relativity can explain this. Eventually quantum gravity probably will too.
- Even if wrong, it still doesn't imply the christian god exists.
- Your inability to comprehend something doesn't invalidate something.

So to summarise:

- god is not all powerful as there exists a, 'supreme law of free will' that even god must adhere to
- passing judgement on people against their will violates this supreme law of free will
- god knows our souls in their entirety, knowing everything we will or will not do in life, thereby invalidating the need for us to live at all. He could simply pass judgement on our souls now and it would make no difference.
- god creates flawed people, and then punishes them for those flaws
- you don't understand physics, and use your lack of knowledge to try and legitimize fantasy

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

Ah I see.

So god doesn't control everything then, and things do happen outside of his will - he permits terrible things in the name of some, 'supreme law' of free will.

God is perfect, all knowing, all powerful (and totally benevolent in application of this power and knowledge). Yet, His power is dependent on the various laws of the Universe. Of course He is not going to violate the laws of individual free will. He is perfectly honest and consistent, esp within Himself. Of course He is subject to the same laws of the universe from whence He derives His power and suggests His children do the same (used to be called 'commandments' in the vernacular which are nothing more than guidelines for behavior such that human conduct might more closely conform to that of God).

Obviously, it grieves Him* to perceive the misery that inevitably results when terrible things result from circumstances of this termporal life (e.g. destructive hurricane) and esp the needless misery that results from sin.

But, in perfect self restraint, His purposes are accomplished more fully by following the laws of permitting free will while His children prove themselves in this temporary sphere.

*NOTE: its critical for those with parental units (1 or both) who modeled bad parental behavior to not project their unfortunate life situation/ experiences onto the characteristics of God above. Its completely natural to do so but not wise for those with bad parents to assume the Eternal Parents above are so. Please be aware of this all too common mistake/ misunderstanding which might predispose one to non-belief before a thorough and rational analysis has been carried out.

Which now means that god is not all powerful after all, and is subject to this supreme law. Interesting. If this law of free will is so supreme, why do people not have the free will to decline judgement by god? Suppose it's someone's will that they aren't judged - it's a violation of the supreme law of free will to judge them.

Godly Power =/= the impulsive lack of self restraint in violation of the larger purposes of this earthly, temporal existence.

So why then does god adhere to the supreme law of free will, only to violate it later on? Also, all we've really done now is replace god with another supreme entity in this supreme law.

How, exactly, does He violate free will later on? Being all knowing and aware of the minutest details of exactly what influences any particular decision made in this life (for good or evil) He is also the perfect Judge.

So now we've solved the issue of god willing rape, molestation, torture, murder etc. - he doesn't actually will them, he just sits by and lets them happen. I'm still curious though how these, 'sinners' arise in the first place. You'd think a supreme being would be capable of creating a species that would be capable of naturally avoiding sin.

C'mon now, you have simply got to realize how boring and pointless life -indeed existence itself- is without any intelligent struggle/ opposition? Silly example but probably relevant: muscle is built up against resistance, it atrophies in the absence of resistance. Perhaps a more relevant analogy: areas of the brain are pruned out of existence (early teens I think?) if they are not used.

(not directed towards redbaron): The degree of zombiehood is directly proportional to a lack of moral resistance.

Well hang on. They were created that way. If they have an inclination towards evil, god intended it. Unless you're saying god is incompetent and made a mistake.

God (the eternally benevolent one; specifically NOT the god of evil) intends that all of the souls which He has created to be happy and learn, with ever increasing accuracy/ insight/ intelligence to choose the good/ right/ happiest course of action. Every individual is at a unique level in their development. As the soul is eternal the opportunities for forward progress are limitless. There are probably very few sins for which God will not be more than willing and ready to forgive his children (thereby being able to forgive and forget and move on past mistakes/ sins). Heinous sins such as murder of an innocent excepting of course. Even then...

So why does a supreme being that knows everything we're going to do anyway wait for us to do it to pass judgement?

The reasoning that it leaves us with, 'no excuses' is not valid.

Please explain your thinking why this "no excuses" reasoning is not valid.

...you don't understand physics, and use your lack of knowledge to try and legitimize fantasy

Actually, unless the 'gods' of physics of this world (University professors as well as a major professional licensing body) are to be disbelieved in: I have straight As in the 6 advanced physics courses I took in undergrad/ grad as well as 4 years additional advanced post graduate education and a couple of decades of experience in the real world application of physics (happen to be licensed to calculate and approve the calculations done to prove new and existing buildings including the tallest skyscrapers will withstand all static and dynamic forces they are subjected to). So the next time you enter a building...look up and imagine all that weight hovering just above you...surely you trust my expertise in physics enough to trust your life

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Moral relativism is useless, you'll eventually realise it.

So much evidence.

The kicker is that it is useless, but only because it's true.

Bad things happen.

*EDIT: On another note, the use of this kind of apparent unsupported truism is exactly what spawns the perceptual ennui that results in others responding with one liners like "suck it," as if you weren't capable of refuting the initial concept.

 

[Brontosaurie]

How else is good identified?

we all desire to proliferate and prosper. good is that which facilitates reaching or maintaining these goals. of course there's no definite goal as life is a continuous, self-similar process, but more abstractly speaking there's a goal in that which we desire.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

we all desire to proliferate and prosper. good is that which facilitates reaching or maintaining these goals. of course there's no definite goal as life is a continuous, self-similar process, but more abstractly speaking there's a goal in that which we desire.

The catch is that that goal is a zero sum game... that never really changes; though its players are in constant dynamic equilibrium. Rabbits prosper among carrot holocausts.

 

[Brontosaurie]

The catch is that that goal is a zero sum game... that never really changes; though its players are in constant dynamic equilibrium. Rabbits prosper among carrot holocausts.

i don't see what's invalid about this definition of "good"? what has life being a zero-sum game got to do with human morality? we're still far away from a total universal cybernetic singularity collapse of consciousness.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

i don't see what's invalid about this definition of "good"? what has life being a zero-sum game got to do with human morality? we're still far away from a total universal cybernetic singularity collapse of consciousness.

It doesn't, it just describes its nature (a Markov network).

My response wasn't intended to contradict what you said, just to expand. It's that whole me spewing information with (warranted? idk, it's a default thing that I always do to/for everyone regardless) trust in your ability to perceive that information and incorporate it into a holistic understanding thing.

The singularity ultimately just formally recognizes what already exists.

 

[The Introvert]

If God controls all then why does He create people without giving them a chance?

By your logic, everything that happens ever is the result of God's will.

Why is it, then, that He wills people to not believe and be eternally damned?

How does a loving God intentionally create people just to watch them burn?

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

How does a loving God intentionally create people just to watch them burn?

He doesn't.

Here is His plan for His creations, in a nutshell.

Step 1 create a soul. You want it to be happy. Any normal earthly parent will understand this feeling.

Step 2 said soul and/or sets of souls get bored of hanging out in heaven. They get itchy and want to break out on their own and be free of the Father to either progress or digress.

Step 3 The Eternal Father creates earth to achieve this purpose.

Step 4 the souls who want to come here for their temporal probationary period. By their own actions for good or evil they prove or disprove their merit. This time period in the individual's collective eternal existence is less substantial than a single grain of sand in all the earth's beaches/ oceans.

Step 5 death comes to all. Let the sorting of the chaff from the wheat begin. IF ONLY IN EACH INDIVIDUAL'S OWN PRIVATE CONSCIOUSNESS of what they did/ didn't do once they were on their own away from their Heavenly Home.

Step 6 the next phase of existence of the soul commences on a progressed or retrograde level depending on what they did or didn't do with the resources they were given/ not given to work with in this life. Both the individual and the Father KNOW exactly what the individual's standing is as far as having progressed for better or worse.

Step 7 hence progressing towards endless learning of choosing the good over the evil and endless increasing happiness (or the opposite for those who outright choose evil).

One of the Rules of Life that God follows, apparently, and esp. after the biblical flood is: "hands off (generally) for the earthly experience of my soul children. They must learn as they go and suffer to experience the bad to value the good, even unto murder, etc by other souls journeying alongside them". Its an elegant plan in sum.

Choose good: win

Choose evil: fail

Cause the suffering of others through evil choices/ acts etc: fail (often will only be in the eternities)

Suffer at the hands of those who choose evil: win (in the eternities).

Apparently the Father's plan is to judge each individual based on their merit's (or lack thereof) in 2 regards:
1. Their actions.
2. The desires of their hearts.

 

[Brontosaurie]

It doesn't, it just describes its nature (a Markov network).

My response wasn't intended to contradict what you said, just to expand. It's that whole me spewing information with (warranted? idk, it's a default thing that I always do to/for everyone regardless) trust in your ability to perceive that information and incorporate it into a holistic understanding thing.

The singularity ultimately just formally recognizes what already exists.

well, i was contradicting your "How else is good defined?" (implying god is needed for morality) so i was expecting a counter-argument or a concession.

i perceive the information alright, but my response is a different matter.

 

[Grayman]

If God controls all then why does He create people without giving them a chance?

By your logic, everything that happens ever is the result of God's will.

Why is it, then, that He wills people to not believe and be eternally damned?

How does a loving God intentionally create people just to watch them burn?

Can a loving god exist?

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

If God controls all then why does He create people without giving them a chance?

By your logic, everything that happens ever is the result of God's will.

Why is it, then, that He wills people to not believe and be eternally damned?

How does a loving God intentionally create people just to watch them burn?

Chance is a result of agency.

It is.

Going immediately into sophistry: Without disbelief can there be belief? Is disbelief not a belief?

And about that eternal damnation thing. I doubt it exists in accordance to the pop culture understanding. I'd argue we're already in it. Love and damnation also aren't mutually exclusive.

well, i was contradicting your "How else is good defined?" (implying god is needed for morality) so i was expecting a counter-argument or a concession.

i perceive the information alright, but my response is a different matter.

I'm not implying that a god is necessary for morality to exist, just... basically stating that in order for a god to be compatible with the apparent state of reality, that god must not give a shit, which is neither wrong of said god nor evidence contrary to its existence.

My overarching point there was that my actions are biased towards my own thought processes. Not that you don't know that either; just basking in my own reflective self-awareness.

Can a loving god exist?

Spoiler