Wonka's Street Corner Preaching (split from Degrees of Freedom)

[redbaron]

God has never raped or tortured or murdered anyone, that's just absurd.

Sinful human beings rape and torture and molest.

And yet, nothing happens outside of God's will remember? If those sinners exist in the first place, God must have willed it. If they rape and torture, God must have willed it.

The only way it could not be so, is if God did not will it. But then that means things DO happen outside of God's will, and he is not in sovereign control of everything.

Now do you see?

Yes I see now.

God is all powerful and all controlling, and it is by his will that people are raped, tortured, murdered, children are abused, beaten, molested. He wills malaria, famine and plague. These are all manifeststions of his will, because absolutely nothing happens that is not his will.

I see now that this is all okay, because there's a verse in the bible that justifies this as all just being in the pursuit of ultimate good - thereby making these things okay.

Which begs the question: if god is all powerful, all knowing and in sovereign control of everything, why does he not simply enact ultimate good? Why would such a being use such roundabout methods to achieve his goals?

I guess maybe he's all powerful...just really stupid and inefficient?

 

[OldCoyote]

Well, the most HORRIBLE, VILE, and WICKED ACT that was EVER perpetrated by men was the false trial, mocking, and beating, and crucifying of the LORD JESUS CHRIST on Calvary.

Or.... JC went back to India under the witness protection name Issa.

Like the song said "Buddha probably wasn't a Christian but Jesus would have been a pretty good Buddha" --Ray Wiley Hubbard

 

[Minuend]

I don't know why everyone keeps trying to have a conversation with this guy. There is no conversation to be had. He's just spewing pure dogma. The only thing you can do with someone like that is marginalize them.

I can't really remember any of wonkas previous posts, but it is a bit odd that he is suddenly preaching everywhere. I assume he got bored and decided to troll the forum.

 

[Grayman]

@WONK

1 John 4:8

New International Version (NIV)

8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

For this reason one cannot be saved unless you know love. One who does not know love does not know Jesus. If you do not know Jesus, who is it that you are serving?

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

God loved the world, not just the Christians. If you believe in him. In the greek, believe is not to believe in the existence of but to understand and follow someone. It is to take up the ideals of another as your own. The ideals being Jesus and love.

1 John 3:1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are.

More showing that to be a child of the Father or Christian one must love. God has given us that capacity, we just have to use it and follow Jesus.

1 Peter 1:22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart,


1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

The truth, the word of God, is to love. It is what makes us clean. It is Jesus because Jesus is love.

Matthew 5:43-48 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus says to love your enemy. If you are to love your greatest of enemies why is it that people think we should not love those who are not Christian as well?

Matthew 6:24-25 ”No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

God is your master, Love is God and God is love, Love is your master.

John 15:9-17 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

The greatest love is sacrifice. Jesus showed us the greatest love by his self sacrifice.



The end result is that love is what saves you. Love is Jesus. Jesus showed us his ultimate sacrifice and showed us love. It was not to pay for our sins but to show us the path to god the path to love. Do not stray from that path thinking that all you need to do is believe in someone because you might not understand who it is you believe in and you miss the whole point of what Jesus did. What he spent his whole life teaching. The greatest of all commandments is love, keep this and the rest will follow.

 

[Jennywocky]

Re: Degrees of Freedom

Yes, that is true. the derailed christian faith would not exist but the original probably would have failed either way. I wonder what the timing was with Paul becoming a 'christian' and revelations coming out. Was revelations speculation of what would happen with the Roman empire and religion or was it something else?

You mean the Book of Revelation? ("Revelations" is an American misnomer, that's not its actual name.) It was written by someone claiming to be John of Patmos, although there are arguments over who that was and if the three Johns in the Bible are three different people. Dating is somewhere around 70-95AD, supposedly. The preterists think is applied to 1st century, but there are various interpretations.

The seven heads of the beast, for example, could apply to the seven Roman
emperors until Rome fell. What have you read in regards to Zoastrianism and Revelation?

I can't really remember any of wonkas previous posts, but it is a bit odd that he is suddenly preaching everywhere. I assume he got bored and decided to troll the forum.

I don't know when he converted. Sometimes new converts get really zealous. Or maybe there was a life event of some sort that triggered the religious fervor.

I don't know, but honestly, I'd find that more interesting to hear about than all the very general, very generic, very shaky, and thus very useless preaching.

I don't know why everyone keeps trying to have a conversation with this guy. There is no conversation to be had. He's just spewing pure dogma. The only thing you can do with someone like that is marginalize them.

I'm here mostly cuz I hope an interesting discussion (yeah, one of those bizarre exchanges of information that happens between two or more people who are actually interested in each other's thoughts and perspectives) might break out among the other participants in the thread.

 

[Grayman]

Re: Degrees of Freedom

You mean the Book of Revelation? ("Revelations" is an American misnomer, that's not its actual name.) It was written by someone claiming to be John of Patmos, although there are arguments over who that was and if the three Johns in the Bible are three different people. Dating is somewhere around 70-95AD, supposedly. The preterists think is applied to 1st century, but there are various interpretations.

The seven heads of the beast, for example, could apply to the seven Roman
emperors until Rome fell. What have you read in regards to Zoastrianism and Revelation?

Nothing. I have been interested in pursuing this topic in the past but never found, more like made, the time.

Zoastrianism? How is it related. I will probably just look it up anyways but it is nice to get a summary from a learned individual before I go all googly.

 

[Jennywocky]

Re: Degrees of Freedom

Nothing. I have been interested in pursuing this topic in the past but never found, more like made, the time.

Zoastrianism? How is it related. I will probably just look it up anyways but it is nice to get a summary from a learned individual before I go all googly.

I'm more of a dabbler in that area, but there seems to be some overlap between Zoastrian thought and imagery in Revelation. Maybe someone can comment more on it.

Also, Zoastrianism has more of a God/Devil good/evil binary approach to the divine cosmology. The Bible itself actually seems to evolve Satan. Originally JHWH is credited for all good and evil, and Satan is actually an agent of God who isn't necessarily "evil" but more like a prosecutor; but at a midpoint in the OT, you start seeing a shift from God (the supreme being) controlling everything to God being more responsible for good and Satan starts to be blamed more and more for the evil in the world. By the time you reach the New Testament, you have more the climactic fight between good and evil and Satan as God's direct opposition; Revelation is kind of the peak of that.

 

[OldCoyote]

I like how theism represents the population that "created" it's government system.

1-ruler= 1 Deity
2-ruler's= 2 Deity's
3-rome= Trinity

 

[Grayman]

Re: Degrees of Freedom

I'm more of a dabbler in that area, but there seems to be some overlap between Zoastrian thought and imagery in Revelation. Maybe someone can comment more on it.

Also, Zoastrianism has more of a God/Devil good/evil binary approach to the divine cosmology. The Bible itself actually seems to evolve Satan. Originally JHWH is credited for all good and evil, and Satan is actually an agent of God who isn't necessarily "evil" but more like a prosecutor; but at a midpoint in the OT, you start seeing a shift from God (the supreme being) controlling everything to God being more responsible for good and Satan starts to be blamed more and more for the evil in the world. By the time you reach the New Testament, you have more the climactic fight between good and evil and Satan as God's direct opposition; Revelation is kind of the peak of that.

That is very interesting. I am not sure that I would agree with revelation. It could very well be that the book without the concept of the devil could be a very different interpretation. The thing is that, it could mean almost anything, it does seem to fit with what you are saying.

One thing that fits in with the devil and how he evolves, likely in conjunction with the Greek god hades, is the concept of hell. Satan lived in Eden in the beginning then was to crawl on his belly on Earth when Adam and Eve were cast from Eden. Hell was not a part of the concept.

Hell itself did not exist in the old testament, even when referenced it was in terms of the deep, the abyss or the void. The afterlife concept, on a whole, did not exist until the Greek religions started to intermingle with the Jewish religions. Paul did a very good job of mingling. Eternal torture was never a part of the original plan.

 

[Jennywocky]

Re: Degrees of Freedom

One thing that fits in with the devil and how he evolves, likely in conjunction with the Greek god hades, is the concept of hell. Satan lived in Eden in the beginning then was to crawl on his belly on Earth when Adam and Eve were cast from Eden. Hell was not a part of the concept.

note that Eden doesn't talk of Satan. It just talks about the snake and explains in an almost aesop kind of way about why the snake now slithers on its belly. Snakes were also seen as the voice of wisdom in some cultures, they are not necessarily evil.

But there's stuff layered back from later books in the compiled scripture that then do try to identify the snake with the Devil. This satisfies those who think all the scriptures are written by God, where the textual critics of course see it as an evolving collection of documents, so you're watching "thoughts" evolve when a document centuries later written by that culture adds definitions to documents produced centuries before.

In the OT, similar to what you say, of course, people just died and went to Sheol (the grave). Heaven was a concept that occurred much later; people viewed resurrection in the oldest parts of the OT as a literal restoration of life to dried bones.

Hell itself did not exist in the old testament, even when referenced it was in terms of the deep, the abyss or the void. The afterlife concept, on a whole, did not exist until the Greek religions started to intermingle with the Jewish religions. Paul did a very good job of mingling. Eternal torture was never a part of the original plan.

That sounds about right.

 

[wonkavision]

....

 

[NoID10ts]

....

Finally! He's speechless! Woo-hoo!!!!!!

 

[Grayman]

Re: Degrees of Freedom

note that Eden doesn't talk of Satan. It just talks about the snake and explains in an almost aesop kind of way about why the snake now slithers on its belly. Snakes were also seen as the voice of wisdom in some cultures, they are not necessarily evil.

But there's stuff layered back from later books in the compiled scripture that then do try to identify the snake with the Devil. This satisfies those who think all the scriptures are written by God, where the textual critics of course see it as an evolving collection of documents, so you're watching "thoughts" evolve when a document centuries later written by that culture adds definitions to documents produced centuries before.

In the OT, similar to what you say, of course, people just died and went to Sheol (the grave). Heaven was a concept that occurred much later; people viewed resurrection in the oldest parts of the OT as a literal restoration of life to dried bones.



That sounds about right.

Wow, I guess I just got caught up in the sunday school lesson teachings. You are right, Satan was never mentioned. I am curious on the meaning behind the Hebrew word Satan... looked it up and it says that it means adversary. It is not a specific name to a person or entity. It is just a common word like adversary is in the English language. The adversary can be anyone or anything that opposes God, or maybe is apposed to God.

EDIT:

Some interesting reading here. http://bibleprophecyfulfilled.com/art9romans.html

 

[OldCoyote]

@Grayman

A basic understanding of the historical facts in the first century Roman world helps illuminate the book of Revelation.

Word ..

Some books that didn't fit the agenda.

http://www.gnosis.org/library/cac.htm

....

 

[Hadoblado]

I can't really remember any of wonkas previous posts, but it is a bit odd that he is suddenly preaching everywhere. I assume he got bored and decided to troll the forum.

This was my initial impression, but looking through his forum history he's been doing this type of thing for awhile, just without the manic all-caps. He probably decided that since people weren't agreeing with him, they must not be able to hear him?

 

[Hawkeye]

An Apatheist, by definition, believes there might not be a God; however, he also believes there might be.

The Apatheist recognizes the former is probably more convenient, dependent on whichever God it would turn out to be. If there isn't a God, then there's no afterlife and we may as well make the best of the one life we get. If there is a God who has the ability to do whatever He pleased, and we were doing shit of which He disapproved, He probably would have already come down from the sky and told us to "Fucking stop that. Seriously."

Since that has not happened, there's no real reason to believe that the human race, as a whole, is an affront to God. So until that happens, we should all just hang back and relax, and if we start pissing off God, we're pretty sure He'll come let us know about it. And if He doesn't exist, fuck it, no one to offend. No big deal, right? Eh, it's cool.

I love Uncyclopedia ^^

 

[Rook]

I may be going off topic on this derail, but why does this forum only seem to have christians, atheists, agnostics and rational thinkers(as I choose to define myself on the whole religion/a-religion front)? I guess it has to do with the fact that we have almost no users from the east and middle-east, but are there not any forumites who follow the paths of buddhism, taoism etc.? Are there forum members who have in the past vouched for any of these other doctrines?

 

[Jennywocky]

Well, Buddhism and Taoism aren't really big on proselytizing and confrontative debate in the way some forms of Christianity are, are they?

I think most of the christian focus here occurs because that faith actively has stomped on some members' toes. And of course its prevalence in western culture.

 

[Hadoblado]

There are plenty of dabblers, but I don't think there are many born and raised Buddhists etc.

My Aunt is a converted Buddhist. I don't respect the way in which she practices, but I'm fairly fond of it relative to other religions.

 

[Rook]

I'm fairly fond of it relative to other religions.

I agree. If I was forced to adopt a religion, it would be buddhism. I recall Einstein and Nietzsche vouching for it. It lays down basic moral guidelines, and skirts the whole practice of worship. It would be interesing to debate with a buddhist, as they are quite tolerant and open-minded. The Dalai Lama has also taken an interest in quantum physics, highlighting the fact that buddhism can be merged with science to some degree.

 

[Hawkeye]

Buddhism is Apatheistic

 

[Jennywocky]

There are plenty of dabblers, but I don't think there are many born and raised Buddhists etc.

It seems more like something you choose to follow / learn about, individually, than something you are raised as.

My Aunt is a converted Buddhist. I don't respect the way in which she practices, but I'm fairly fond of it relative to other religions.

Zen actually was pretty helpful to me when I was exploring existentialism more and breaking out of the mold of the Christian conservatism where I had lived. When growing up, I was actually taught that all Eastern religions were anti-God and even cultish; so, in the conservative chuch and surrounding culture, it's a hard sell.

 

[Grayman]

It seems more like something you choose to follow / learn about, individually, than something you are raised as.



Zen actually was pretty helpful to me when I was exploring existentialism more and breaking out of the mold of the Christian conservatism where I had lived. When growing up, I was actually taught that all Eastern religions were anti-God and even cultish; so, in the conservative chuch and surrounding culture, it's a hard sell.

I am not that familiar with Buddhism but I find the mental workouts they have you do to be my natural mindset. I am not aware of them having a god. Where do Christianity and Buddhism become incompatable?

 

[Jennywocky]

I am not that familiar with Buddhism but I find the mental workouts they have you do to be my natural mindset. I am not aware of them having a god. Where do Christianity and Buddhism become incompatable?

Well, there's a huge difference in the concept of soul, just to start with -- conservative Christianity preaches one soul, one lifetime, and then you spend eternity somewhere based on the results of that one life. Buddhism doesn't typically have "one static unchanging soul"... the self independent of the cosmos (as its own unique entity) is an illusion.

Christianity makes very strong boundaries between things (people, god, angels, animals, the world) ... it's all about distinction and things being one thing and not something else, whereas in Buddhism things seem to all flow together... we are not just in the river, we are the river.

Buddhism is more about enlightenment (learned), and Christianity is about salvation (granted by a separate God being). There is also a huge distinction between personal and impersonal.
　
In a nutshell, Buddhism says life is suffering, suffering comes from ignorance [the reality is that the world is impermanent and ever-changing, but we are unsatisfied because we are clinging to stability and permanence against the nature of the universe, craving for things that we can't have], and the goal is to reach a peace of acceptance and thus balance/stability through whatever number of rebirths are necesary. (Nirvana.)
　
Christianity states that suffering comes from sin (disobedience to God and thus selfishness), and that to be freed from the destructive cravings of sin, you have to accept God's gift of salvation, which rebirths you once and for all and, even if you still err in life, those charges are no longer laid to your deficit account. Being a "new person," you have a new nature that is not selfish and can be more and move like God. After death, you will go either to a place of reward or a palce of punishment (heaven or hell), and if you're in heaven, the "evil / old nature" is finally overcome and the good nature perfected.
　
So note that in Buddhism, enlightenement eventually involves recognizing you are everything and everything is you, leaving you in a state of balance and thus peace. In Christianity, you remain very distinct and not God and not others (very much just a "human" soul), and your joy comes in being within proximity of a distinct Other divine being for all eternity. In Buddhism, damnation is being trapped in the circle of rebirth and never quite aware of the Reality of things; in Christianity, damnation is an eternity spent apart from God (or AKA the fires of hell), and you only get one life to make that decision.

So they're pretty different, even if some of the values remain the same. Hopefully I got the basics correct; if someone wants to correct errors in nuance, feel free.

 

[wonkavision]

Since the Mods saw fit to make this thread about ME ( they REALLY DID, this was not ORIGINALLY called "Wonka's Strret Corner Preaching", FYI), then let me tell you something about myself.


This has nothing to do with "open-minded" vs. "not open-minded."

I am an INFJ.

I was NOT raised in Christianity, and before I became a Christian, I was into all kinds of "spiritism," witchcraft, Buddhism, Taoism, existentialism, Secular Humanism, New Age philosophy, etc. --all the stuff that NFs are typically interested in.

I was what most people would call "VERY open-minded."

I was the "Best Man" at my mom's lesbian wedding.....

And I was, IN EVERY WAY, what people call "open-minded".

But that's NOT what this is about.

It's about CHRIST.


So, it really BOTHERS me how people ASSUME Christians are just "narrow-minded."

I'm STILL very open-minded about a whole LOT of things.

Some of you know my taste in film, for example.


STOP ASSUMING you know things that you know NOTHING about.

I'm a CHRISTIAN because GOD opened my eyes.

And if GOD opens YOUR EYES, you'll see too.


What some of you THINK was the Pharisee's problem, was NOT their biggest problem.

Some of you THINK it was that they had a self-righteous ATTITUDE. Or that they thought they were right and others were wrong.

But that is NOT what their problem was.

Their problem was that they DID NOT KNOW GOD, and that was PROVEN when God CAME to them in the flesh, and they REJECTED him.

And THAT is YOUR PROBLEM TOO if you REJECT JESUS CHRIST.

Unless GOD is PLEASED to SAVE you, you'll burn in the same pit as the Pharisees.

That is the truth.

The Pharisees BELIEVED and TAUGHT LIES.

Their DOCTRINE was NOT of GOD, but of MEN.

But a TRUE preacher sent of God tells the TRUTH, according to God's Word, and he's not SWAYED by the OPINIONS of men.

2 Corinthians 4:1-11

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways.

We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.

For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.

We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.

For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

 

[Jennywocky]

Since the Mods saw fit to make this thread about ME ( they REALLY DID, this was not ORIGINALLY called "Wonka's Strret Corner Preaching", FYI), then let me tell you something about myself.


This has nothing to do with "open-minded" vs. "not open-minded."

I am an INFJ.

I was NOT raised in Christianity, and before I became a Christian, I was into all kinds of "spiritism," witchcraft, Buddhism, Taoism, existentialism, Secular Humanism, New Age philosophy, etc. --all the stuff that NFs are typically interested in.

I was what most people would call "VERY open-minded."

I was the "Best Man" at my mom's lesbian wedding.....

And I was, IN EVERY WAY, what people call "open-minded".

But that's NOT what this is about.

It's about CHRIST.


So, it really BOTHERS me how people ASSUME Christians are just "narrow-minded."

I'm STILL very open-minded about a whole LOT of things.

Some of you know my taste in film, for example.


STOP ASSUMING you know things that you know NOTHING about.

I'm a CHRISTIAN because GOD opened my eyes.

And if GOD opens YOUR EYES, you'll see too.

I don't think people care about your past, they just care about your posts. And your posts are not showing any of the open-mindedness that you would like to lay claim to. Reading your posts, how would anyone "know" any of this about you? Does having a "lesbian mom" or the fact you happen to watch non-G movies give you a free pass to engage in whatever way you feel like? Why should it? People are listening to what you say, they don't care about your bio.

The reality is that there are those in the thread who are older and have perhaps even more experience, and perhaps have been led through personal enlightenment in other directions from you, and yet you show a lack of respect by your posting style on this particular forum.

Are you an INFJ? Then surely with your aux Fe you should be able to recognize [far more than the lowly INTP with a poor poor inf Fe, right?] how you are violating the tone of discussion on an INTP forum and be able to recognize what kind of discussion pattern would be more productive for your ends and for the community... but because you worship a particular God who happened to have made a difference in YOUR life [and hey, that's great], you seem to think that gives you the right to run roughshod over everyone else... that you're entitled to a particular lack of respect in your conversation with other people.

Maybe if you presented your love and belief in Christ in a different way, people would be more receptive... or at least the forum wouldn't have been SO full of this disruptive posting style that it wouldn't all now be confined to one thread. Jesus tailored his approach to the people he was speaking to. This isn't rocket science.

 

[wonkavision]

I don't think people care about your past, they just care about your posts. And your posts are not showing any of the open-mindedness that you would like to lay claim to. Reading your posts, how would anyone "know" any of this about you? Does having a "lesbian mom" or the fact you happen to watch non-G movies give you a free pass to engage in whatever way you feel like? Why should it? People are listening to what you say, they don't care about your bio.

The reality is that there are those in the thread who are older and have perhaps even more experience, and perhaps have been led through personal enlightenment in other directions from you, and yet you show a lack of respect by your posting style on this particular forum.

Are you an INFJ? Then surely with your aux Fe you should be able to recognize [far more than the lowly INTP with a poor poor inf Fe, right?] how you are violating the tone of discussion on an INTP forum and be able to recognize what kind of discussion pattern would be more productive for your ends and for the community... but because you worship a particular God who happened to have made a difference in YOUR life [and hey, that's great], you seem to think that gives you the right to run roughshod over everyone else... that you're entitled to a particular lack of respect in your conversation with other people.

Maybe if you presented your love and belief in Christ in a different way, people would be more receptive... or at least the forum wouldn't have been SO full of this disruptive posting style that it wouldn't all now be confined to one thread. Jesus tailored his approach to the people he was speaking to. This isn't rocket science.

Jenny,

You've totally missed the point.

But that's OK. It doesn't really matter.


You've been given AMPLE OPPORTUNITIES to get the point.

It is NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to MAKE you get it.


The FACT STILL REMAINS:

Unless God saves you, you have a GUARANTEED ticket to hell.

Throw yourself on the mercy of Christ, and you will be SAVED.

Isaiah 1:18

“Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.

Matthew 11:28-30

JESUS said:

Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

He said:

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

(John 6:37-40)

Are you a sinner? Do you need mercy?

Come to Christ.


If God MAKES you willing, you WILL come to Christ.

I pray that he WILL make you willing to come.

 

[OldCoyote]

It's about CHRIST. you made it about Christ. It was-- about Free Will.

What some of you THINK was the Pharisee's problem, was NOT their biggest problem.

Some of you THINK it was that they had a self-righteous ATTITUDEdidn't know God Or that they thought they were right and others were wrong.seen God and didn't recognize him

And THAT is YOUR PROBLEM TOO if you REJECT JESUS CHRIST.
I reject your/Paul's view of Christ.

That is the truth.

The Pharisees BELIEVED and TAUGHT LIES.So did Saul--The Pharisees.

Their DOCTRINE was NOT of GOD, but of MEN.ironic...they had the scriptures,where knowledgable in them, and still fucked it up.

I like you wonka, you have an immense passion towards what you preach. I can respect that, but it's not your job to cast people into hell. Nor is it your job to refer to passage of scripture that casts people into hell..

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord not wonka pondereth the hearts. (Proverbs 21:2 KJV)

 

[Hawkeye]

The FACT STILL REMAINS:

Unless God saves you, you have a GUARANTEED ticket to hell.

Throw yourself on the mercy of Christ, and you will be SAVED.

Not a fact and therefore not guaranteed; I've told you about this before. Stop using absolutes!

If God MAKES you willing, you WILL come to Christ.

I pray that he WILL make you willing to come.

If a deity or deities truly wanted people to believe in them, then said deity or deities could demonstrate their existence with miracles, and explain their plan/s for humanity or the lack thereof.

Being all-powerful, if they truly wanted humans to believe, they could send a divine sign not left up to interpretation.

 

[Jennywocky]

Jenny,

You've totally missed the point.

But that's OK. It doesn't really matter.


You've been given AMPLE OPPORTUNITIES to get the point.

It is NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to MAKE you get it.


The FACT STILL REMAINS:

Unless God saves you, you have a GUARANTEED ticket to hell.

Throw yourself on the mercy of Christ, and you will be SAVED.

Isaiah 1:18



Matthew 11:28-30

JESUS said:



He said:




Are you a sinner? Do you need mercy?

Come to Christ.


If God MAKES you willing, you WILL come to Christ.

I pray that he WILL make you willing to come.

LOL, wow!
I'll give you this: They programmed you well.

I'll end by saying, if the title "Street Corner Preacher" fits, then wear it loudly and without complaint. You're tucked away in this thread because here's where this manner of discourse belongs.

Have fun.

 

[wonkavision]

The point is, we're all sinners, by nature.

We're guilty before God.

And if we deny that fact, we're like fugitives on the run.


And it's TIRING to be constantly on the run.

It's better to just turn yourself in, and throw yourself on the mercy of the court.

You can fool other people, but you CAN NOT fool GOD.


Stop RUNNING. Stop HIDING. Come clean. And find MERCY.

Stop PRETENDING you're not guilty.

Stop running FROM YOURSELF.

Stop HIDING BEHIND A MASK.

It's NOT YOU.

It's not REALITY.



It's TIRING, isn't it?

It makes you WEARY.

You know it does.


Just STOP LYING.



Once again, the Words of Jesus Christ.....

Matthew 11:28-30

JESUS said:

Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

He said:

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

(John 6:37-40)

 

[Grayman]

Jenny,

You've totally missed the point.

But that's OK. It doesn't really matter.


You've been given AMPLE OPPORTUNITIES to get the point.

It is NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to MAKE you get it.


The FACT STILL REMAINS:

Unless God saves you, you have a GUARANTEED ticket to hell.

Throw yourself on the mercy of Christ, and you will be SAVED.

Isaiah 1:18



Matthew 11:28-30

JESUS said:



He said:




Are you a sinner? Do you need mercy?

Come to Christ.


If God MAKES you willing, you WILL come to Christ.

I pray that he WILL make you willing to come.

She has found God. She has found love. God is love.

 

[NoID10ts]

This is a microcosm of why religious fanaticism is so dangerous. In the face of this fanaticism, the forum has very limited options. Reasoned discourse is off the table. Compromise is off the table. We can isolate, tolerate, or submit. There's isn't much else we can do.

If religious fanatics want to protest military funerals and spread hate speech about gays, we can either physically stop them or we can tolerate it. If religious fanatics want to fly planes into buildings and storm shopping malls with AK-47's, we can physically stop them, be killed by them, or we can submit.

There isn't a whole hell of a lot else we can do.

 

[Rook]

I tap the glass. The wonka looks up hastily from his cell. On the walls, words. WORDS. He scurries around, spouting more words left and right. At the end of his rant, he sadly looks away, yearning for the jungle he once called home.

 

[Hawkeye]

Jesus couldn't receive email. He still can't, but he couldn't.

 

[redbaron]

Since the Mods saw fit to make this thread about ME

You do realise they made the thread about you because you were being a nuisance right? They didn't make this thread because they thought anyone gave a shit about you.

I am an INFJ.

Cool story bro. You want a medal or something?

I was what most people would call "VERY open-minded."

"Was", being the operative term here.

It's about CHRIST.

Imaginary absentee father figure. Got it.

I'm STILL very open-minded about a whole LOT of things. Some of you know my taste in film, for example.

Oh you like esoteric films? Well I guess that excuses dogmatic ranting and preaching then!

STOP ASSUMING you know things that you know NOTHING about.

Was this meant as some sort of ironic joke? I suppose not, you probably don't even realise how ironic it is.

I'm a CHRISTIAN because GOD opened my eyes. And if GOD opens YOUR EYES, you'll see too.

Well, since God is all powerful, in sovereign control of everything and absolutely nothing happens outside of his will, there's not much point in really sharing this information is there? If God wills it, it'll happen. If not, it won't.

 

[Jennywocky]

There isn't a whole hell of a lot else we can do.

Nonsense.

We can paint their faces with oil-based pigments and dress them in floppy hats and colorful mumus and big clunky shoes and big red rubber noses and then set up mini-Olympics where they compete against each other in Musical Chairs, High Diving, Water Ballet, and Shuttle Runs while the crowds scream and the commoners sob and the Empress waves her thumb about in the air before Miley Cyrus' giant druggie teddy bears are released to feed to their terrible, gluttonous content.

You simply have to believe.

Jesus couldn't receive email. He still can't, but he couldn't.

Jesus@heaven.com

I haven't tried it.

She has found God. She has found love. God is love.

I love you.
And you.
And you.

I have more love than the world can accept.
Love fills my eyeballs and leaves my pupils floating.
My eyelashes are but little delicate legs that skitter love across my face.

Love gushes out of me like a radioactive river, sweeping away fear and resistance and nervous butterflies, leaving each and every person on the planet ping, ping, pinging on the Geiger Counter of Amour.

My heart is the Goodyear blimp of love, sheathed in polyeurethane, floating high above the SuperBowl, admired and televised by all.

Love is my package of never-ending pink Oreos in the fight against breast cancer, the bottomless trail of salt that makes roads safe in Siberia, a never-ending army of rainbow-shimmer salmom swarming upstream in mighty sprays to nourish the grizzlies.

Would you not give anything for a love such as this?

Would you not have my love?

Would you not have?

Would you?

Would?

 

[NoID10ts]

Nonsense.
We can paint their faces with oil-based pigments and dress them in floppy hats and colorful mumus and big clunky shoes and big red rubber noses and then set up mini-Olympics where they compete against each other in Musical Chairs, High Diving, Water Ballet, and Shuttle Runs while the crowds scream and the commoners sob and the Empress waves her thumb about in the air before Miley Cyrus' giant druggie teddy bears are released to feed to their terrible, gluttonous content.

You simply have to believe.

I guess.

Actually, if we're looking to make sport of them, I like the way the Romans handled it better. Now I'm not saying I advocate religious persecution, but I certainly understand it.

Oh and I too, am a lovable little ball of lovely love. Can't you tell?

 

[wonkavision]

Alright.

Well, there's not much point in sticking around.

Let's just bring this to a close.


I just banned myself.

Sayonara.

 

[NoID10ts]

Well, you can take comfort in the fact that everything went according to the divine plan.

Well done, good and faithful servant.

 

[OldCoyote]

Actually, if we're looking to make sport of them, I like the way the Romans handled it better. Now I'm not saying I advocate religious persecution, but I certainly understand it.

......Talk about clinging to the cross..

 

[Jennywocky]

Well, you can take comfort in the fact that everything went according to the divine plan.

Well done, good and faithful servant.

He didn't even use caps in that last post.

It broke the pattern. Disappointed.

 

[Hawkeye]

I think you mean you're leaving.

You cannot ban yourself...


It's bizarre really as you said there were things of interest to you on this forum. Why not simply stick to those interests?

So long as you don't rub another man's rhubarb with your preaching, there will be fewer of these types of derails. We know of what you are talking about, we simply don't believe it and it is not for you to judge us based on that. Let God sort it out, it's his/her/its/ problem.

 

[NoID10ts]

On behalf of WONKA, I'd like to quote a VERSE:


"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet."

- Matthew 10:14

 

[OldCoyote]

What happened..... Oh yea...

Spoiler

http://youtu.be/k-cU7qfIMF8

 

[Grayman]

Alright.

Well, there's not much point in sticking around.

Let's just bring this to a close.


I just banned myself.

Sayonara.

Please don't go. I know things are difficult with how everyone is giving you a hard time. They mean well in their own way but they often fail to realize when too much is too much.

I was hoping we could discuss our views of the verses I posted and I would be interested in your opinion.

 

[Grayman]

What some of you THINK was the Pharisee's problem, was NOT their biggest problem.

Some of you THINK it was that they had a self-righteous ATTITUDE. Or that they thought they were right and others were wrong.

But that is NOT what their problem was.

Their problem was that they DID NOT KNOW GOD, and that was PROVEN when God CAME to them in the flesh, and they REJECTED him.

And THAT is YOUR PROBLEM TOO if you REJECT JESUS CHRIST.

Unless GOD is PLEASED to SAVE you, you'll burn in the same pit as the Pharisees.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Law; justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you ought to have done without neglecting the others." (Matthew 23:23).

Notice the mercy, justice and faithfulness.

I was referencing your capacity for mercy and mercy is a part of love. Justice is fairness. Faithfulness is actually 'emunah' or to trust in. It is a conviction of right and wrong. It is not connected to God as it is a knowledge of good, of love and kindness. That is faith. To follow the path of godliness and love, and to trust that path and to know that path is the right path.

 

[Grayman]

I love you.
And you.
And you.

I have more love than the world can accept.
Love fills my eyeballs and leaves my pupils floating.
My eyelashes are but little delicate legs that skitter love across my face.

Love gushes out of me like a radioactive river, sweeping away fear and resistance and nervous butterflies, leaving each and every person on the planet ping, ping, pinging on the Geiger Counter of Amour.

My heart is the Goodyear blimp of love, sheathed in polyeurethane, floating high above the SuperBowl, admired and televised by all.

Love is my package of never-ending pink Oreos in the fight against breast cancer, the bottomless trail of salt that makes roads safe in Siberia, a never-ending army of rainbow-shimmer salmom swarming upstream in mighty sprays to nourish the grizzlies.

Would you not give anything for a love such as this?

Would you not have my love?

Would you not have?

Would you?

Would?

You jest, but I was not kidding about your capacity for love. I am not saying you are emotional and passionate, only that you are a caring and understanding individual. I have seen you on this forum and have noticed how you value others.

 

[Jennywocky]

You jest, but I was not kidding about your capacity for love. I am not saying you are emotional and passionate, only that you are a caring and understanding individual. I have seen you on this forum and have noticed how you value others.

Thank you for this; and yes, I did get what you meant.

I don't understand where it comes from, I just have a desire for connection and intuitively grasp other's experiences and POVs.

I think also you were the poster where the forum got into a brief skirmish about "being too robotic" a month ago or so, but since then I've also seen a change in your self-expression on the forum and I would revise the thoughts I might have shared then. I didn't know you had more interest in the spiritual/human end of things at the time, but it's been interesting reading your posts of the last two weeks.

 

[Grayman]

Thank you for this; and yes, I did get what you meant.

I don't understand where it comes from, I just have a desire for connection and intuitively grasp other's experiences and POVs.

I think also you were the poster where the forum got into a brief skirmish about "being too robotic" a month ago or so, but since then I've also seen a change in your self-expression on the forum and I would revise the thoughts I might have shared then. I didn't know you had more interest in the spiritual/human end of things at the time, but it's been interesting reading your posts of the last two weeks.

I have a bad tendency to fluctuate. A good reminder of the value of emotion can be a blessing. Without one, I return to a natural robotic state when I spend less time with people. Being married to a feeler has benifited me in this area. Spending more time discussing with people on internet helps also. The capacity is entirely there. I just forget to use it.