Why INTP and ENTJ?

[Vulture]

I don't quite understand perfectly why these two types are idealy matched, and I am looking for someone with insight on this.

Thank you.

 

[strangeguy]

hmmm i don't understand as well.
actually i myself are i bad relationship with a ENTJ

 

[murkrow]

I can understand why an ENTJ would want an INTP.

You're one of the few (if not only) ones who will stand up to us, correct us on our small mistakes and offer anything in return.

INTJ are more likely to let us continue in our flaws and the feelies just can't understand what all the fuss is about.

But yeah... why anyone would want to be with an ENTJ is a mystery.

I think we're especially screwed by the fact that both of us are somewhat rare types and overwhelmingly male populated.

 

[Ermine]

Well, an ENTJ would complete me as an INTP. An extravert would help me out of my shell a bit, and a judging type would help me get things done and know my limits. (My art project plans are way too grandiose for my own good.)

An ENTJ would be exactly what I need. And we can think and argue and dream together! Sounds like a beautiful relationship waiting to happen.

 

[murkrow]

well as an artistic ENTJ I can tell you that it is very unlikely your plans will be made any less grandiose.

It's very doubtful that an ENTJ is ever going to look at an idea and say "Hm... that's way too ambitious.". What you're more likely to see is "That's great, here's how it'll work...".


That's how I work with my ISFP brother, he's like *Idea, Idea, Idea, Idea! Art Art Art!* and then I'm like *Regiment, apply logic to, enhance themes, develop purpose for*.

 

[RobdoR]

ENTJ and INTP is truly a match made in heaven.

My wife is an ENTJ. Keirsey labels them "Teacher" because they bring out the best in people. They love to see people reach their potential. She keeps me on track and I have actually finished more projects in the three years I've been married to her than in my entire life before that. She helps me to actually finish my projects. It's kind of nice. She will also dream with me and have theoretical discussions with me. I have a hard time getting her excited about math, but she really liked the lecture on the fourth dimension that I showed her. I also enjoys watching economics video lessons with me. I have her reading real estate strategy books with me now too. It's great!

There has been a pretty steep learning curve though. Being an NF she is a people person, and me being an NT, not so thrilled about people. But she had helped me to open up some and it turns out people issues are more interesting than I gave them credit for.

Another learning point for me is that INFJ's are incurable romantics. She was kind of disenchanted after we got married because the romance was fading and we had to actually live life together. And I had no idea how to be romantic for her. I thing I tapped into some superhuman romance deep within me when we were dating and engaged or maybe my bumbling attempts were just seen through rose colored glasses. Either way, after we got married I had to learn how to be romantic. And guess what, even though I still don't fully understand it, flowers work every time.

Her extravertedness is pretty fun. I like watching her get excited when she's out with friends. It really doesn't even conflict too much with my introvertedness that I can tell either.

Both being N's is invaluable I think. It allows us to speak the same language. Since S's tend to speak of concrete things and N's speak of more abstract things, There can be a kind of disconnect where we feel the other person never really understands us. Even though she is preoccupied with people and emotions and me with Ideas and theories, we can still communicate fairly well. I think much of that has to do with both being N's.

I'm a T and she's an F. Her feeling makes her more of a people person concerned with romance and ideals. It's a good counterbalance, but requires some working through to know what the other person wants and needs.

I'm P and she's J. She keeps me on track, and I help her loosen up and not stress out so much.

Over all I have been very pleased. Very pleased indeed. I hope you can all find an ENFJ.

 

[murkrow]

Wait...
So she's an ENFJ and not an ENTJ?

 

[loveofreason]

A chain of replies to a deleted (and irrelevant) post have been removed.

Now, back to the question.

What's great about the INTP - ENTJ combination?

Can it be as simple as the fact they can essentially understand us (NT), but get us out of the house a bit (E) and keep our lives in order(J)? Urgh... someone that will not only take us to a party but tell us how to dress?

Too simple! Someone must have something meatier to contribute.

 

[RobdoR]

oh yeah, I must have been tired when I posted that. She's ENFJ. Disregard what I said. It doesn't apply to ENTJ's. I thought it was the ENFJ's that were the ideal match. Where does it say ENTJ's are? Hope I didn't confuse anyone too badly.

Carry on.

 

[murkrow]

The only insight I can give is taken from a platonic relationship with vulture.

Basically we have almost entirely stress free discourse that delves deeply into any topic at hand.

Whenever I (ENTJ) do something that insults his self governing capabilities he calls me on it and I adapt my thinking on it- or - he calls me on it, I reconsider it and come to the same conclusion and he then adapts his thinking.
We both understand objective right that can be developed from intuitive understandings so there is very little lost in translation (I found that my INFJ girlfriend and I were almost incapable of carrying on a conversation because so much time was spent interpreting each other).

However the relationship I have with vulture is somewhat different from the standard ENTJ/INTP relationship because I am the artistic and creatively focused one between us while Vulture is very much a disassociated analyzer of the world.

Still I think I contribute to the direction and focus of his endeavors while he lends to the validity and uniqueness of mine.

 

[Jesin]

I originally posted this in another thread, but its topic was related to this one at the start and is starting to move closer. Anyway:

There's an ENTJ on my bus, and when she sits near the group of me and the two INTP friends I have on that bus, we generally end up in animated conversations on various random topics. INTP and ENTJ are not inherently opposing personality types, they're both NT, and I think it could work pretty well.

 

[Zero]

I have read... that they are ideal for each other.... because one's extroverted thinking and the other is introverted thinking. I believe thinking is both of their primary function...

 

[Kumori]

I think INTP and ENTJ works well together because the INTP is a logical and rational thinker, and the ENTJ is an artistic doer.

 

[Mischz]

Never had a relationship with an ENTJ. I've always preferred "I" to "E" people as partners because I partly cannot stand the 'showmanship' of "E" types.

My relationships so far - ESFP and INTJ and ISTP.

The ESFP was very exasperating although he was really nice to me. I couldn't appreciate (or tolerate) his flamboyance as my partner. Good as a friend though. Very funny, entertaining and bright person to be with.

The INTJ to me was the best of the three, although we had some issues with the lack of "F" in the relationship. It functioned excellently on all levels but emotionally we were quite reticent with each other. Very good friend and understands me better than myself at times.

The ISTP, though he doesn't get me sometimes, is quite a good match. The "S-P" combo means he actively does things to help me feel better when he percepts that there is something wrong. "I-T" is good because I appreciate a quiet, thinking person. However if we weren't in a relationship I doubt we will function as very good friends.

I don't think I answered your question directly... ><"

But I don't agree with ENTJ. I can't possibly imagine being "taken charge" of by anyone else (I am in charge of my own life!).

 

[murkrow]

As usual, saying anything against the ENTJ type and Es in general on this forum is resulting in a response by myself.

FYI I am an ENTJ, so read the following quotes I have taken from other threads with that in mind, unless otherwise stated all this is me talking

To claim you can handle your own personal growth is just silly. What purpose is there for having a relationship if you are not benefiting from their insight into your self? If the only thing you are seeking in a relationship is to have a good time then yes, an INTJ is probably a good choice for an INTP.
Since neither the INTP or INTJ is likely to be much of an initiator and both have very similar strengths the amount of development in the relationship will be very low compared to that with a senser, feeler or extrovert.

There are a couple of threads already open here which deal with the ENTJ/INTP relationship. Generally what I've found in my relations with INTPs (though they are all stricly platonic) is that they benefit greatly from having an ENT around. An ENTP will tend to inspire them, maybe even serving as a sort of motivational mentor which shows the INTP that there are worthwhile things to be done. An ENTJ will be one of the few (if not only) enthusiastic challengers of the INTP's ideas who can also keep up with the INTP's thinking, also the ENTJ's ambitious and plan oriented nature supplies initiative in a form an INTP can relate to.

it's somewhat of a mistake to think that ENTJs are bossy and directing in a relationship. To be in a relationship with someone an ENTJ has to respect them, and if they need to tell them what to do all the time to stop them from totally ruining everything then it's very difficult to respect them. ENTJs admire independence and self ownership above almost everything.

At the risk of seeming overbearing and unable to keep quiet (lol) I have to point out, as I have done before, that the idea that E's will talk only to hear their own voices is somewhat of a misconception. I believe the tendency to engage in small talk has much more to do with the middle lessers (N/S T/F) than the first letter. ENTJs compete with INTJs as the most "no nonsense" type.

If small talk is something that bothers you then you would revel in the presence of an ENTJ. I can tell you that small talk has been almost entirely void from my life for the last several years because my very presence quenches any of the comfort inherent in such discussions. ENTJs are always trying to get something out of everything they are doing, and they are generally uncompromising in their methods of obtaining it. (unlike an ENTP who would be likely to allow the small talk to continue, directing it casually towards topics of their interest and sifting the meaning out of the drivel.)

"The idea is that, optimally, they would add initiative and inspiration to do, while the INTP usually doesn't get that far on their own.

The ENTJ takes the initiative, basically, which the INTP doesn't mind.

To speak of control is really beyond this." -Linsenjko

 

[Mischz]

murkrow,

You might be right in saying that an ENTJ is not necessarily the bossy type. I have no real experience with an ENTJ so my inferences are all theoretical.

But to continue for the sake of discussion, I have two points to make.

1. Ceteris paribus, the % strength of the "TJ" in balance to "FP" will yield very different individuals. This alone will give us at least a few hundred permutations? (My maths is bad forgive me.)

2. Although the MBTI is a useful tool to categorise people, it is hardly exhaustive. There are other factors at play (e.g. Big 5 Personality Traits). This is why a few individuals have said, "I need to know the person first, to tell if we get along."

Ergo! It's all tentative since there are too many variables and unknowns surrounding human personality. You're not asking a solvable question. We can only share POVs without coming to anything conclusive.

^^

 

[murkrow]

murkrow,

You might be right in saying that an ENTJ is not necessarily the bossy type. I have no real experience with an ENTJ so my inferences are all theoretical.

But to continue for the sake of discussion, I have two points to make.

1. Ceteris paribus, the % strength of the "TJ" in balance to "FP" will yield very different individuals. This alone will give us at least a few hundred permutations? (My maths is bad forgive me.)

2. Although the MBTI is a useful tool to categorise people, it is hardly exhaustive. There are other factors at play (e.g. Big 5 Personality Traits). This is why a few individuals have said, "I need to know the person first, to tell if we get along."

Ergo! It's all tentative since there are too many variables and unknowns surrounding human personality. You're not asking a solvable question. We can only share POVs without coming to anything conclusive.

^^

Regardless of the lack of exactness in the MTBI, the simple sharing of points of view between rational people is absolutely worthless if those views are not to be challenged.

If you are not willing to have your opinion critiqued then I am sorry to have done so, but seeing as you are an INTP I assumed you would appreciate the opportunity to further your understanding of a system you obviously hold in some esteem.

 

[Mischz]

Regardless of the lack of exactness in the MTBI, the simple sharing of points of view between rational people is absolutely worthless if those views are not to be challenged.

If you are not willing to have your opinion critiqued then I am sorry to have done so, but seeing as you are an INTP I assumed you would appreciate the opportunity to further your understanding of a system you obviously hold in some esteem.

Whenever I think about an idea/concept, I automatically assume that I could be wrong. So I am definitely willing to have my opinion critiqued, given that it is done so with proof and logic.

The point I was trying to make ("we can only share POVs without coming to anything conclusive") was that we can only share real experiences we have had IF we have had any, between the types, without being able to lay claim to a 'true' solution (i.e. anyone could be right).

This is because of the inherent problems with the premises in this case (limitations of MTBI).

 

[murkrow]

Oh, one of the really good reasons to be with an ENTJ is that the well developed ones are a good lay.


Also I'm about 95% sure Jesus Christ is ENTJ.

 

[Dissident]

Hahaha
Good ones

You forgot the "proof and logic" part tho.

 

[Mischz]

Bah... Guys!!

 

[murkrow]

"Sexually, the ENTJ is robust, imaginative and enthusiastic. Their natural instinct to lead will be apparent in this arena as well as other areas of life, and they will lead their partner on creative lovemaking adventures, where the focus is on mutual learning and affection sharing. They're likely to expect sex on a relatively scheduled basis."

 

[murkrow]

and as far as the jesus thing:

1. Very good leader however people had trouble relating to him. (ETJ)
2. Refuses to accept any authority except God, who he is. (NTJ)
3. Powerful capability with metaphor displayed in his parables. (NT)
4. Prone to powerful displays of personal force. (E)
5. Unwilling to allow other's to go their own way when he saw fault in them. (ENTJ)
6. Planned all of his actions beforehand, knew exactly what he was going to do. (J)

Yeah.

 

[Dissident]

The problem actually was in "Jesus is..."

 

[murkrow]

I chose "is" because I didn't want to argue his historic existence, and it's obvious that he exists as a character at least.

 

[Dissident]

Of course, dont take it so seriously man.
As for sexuality, you know MBTI, it says something good about all types, even INTP! :

Sexuality is another important area which brings out the Fe shadow of the INTP. Sexuality fascinates INTPs in a similar way to music.[...] in an intimate relationship, the extraverted nature of the feeling judgement leads to a beneficial openness and empathic directness in responding to the partner's needs.

 

[loveofreason]

"...likely to expect sex on a relatively scheduled basis."

bwhahahahahahahah. *wipes eyes*

I can't think of anything more antithetical to the spontaneity of sex than having a schedule. But then I'm exceptionally adverse to schedules. Haha. This is creating the funniest scenarios I've thought of in a long time... if only I had a talent for comic prose.

What happens if the INTP jumps the ENTJ when it's not scheduled sex time?

What if the INTP sleeps in and misses the 6am wakeup sex?

ENTJ: atten-shun! Prepare for 6am entry! Present ass!
INTP: Zzzzzz......

It's just too funny.

 

[murkrow]

My mind is always calculating periods of free time in a day suitable for sex.

I'll admit I've been chastised for a lack of romance though.

If the schedule fits then willingness is secondary.

 

[Jesin]

If the schedule fits then willingness is secondary.

Wait, what?

 

[Mischz]

"...likely to expect sex on a relatively scheduled basis."

bwhahahahahahahah. *wipes eyes*

I can't think of anything more antithetical to the spontaneity of sex than having a schedule. But then I'm exceptionally adverse to schedules. Haha. This is creating the funniest scenarios I've thought of in a long time... if only I had a talent for comic prose.

What happens if the INTP jumps the ENTJ when it's not scheduled sex time?

What if the INTP sleeps in and misses the 6am wakeup sex?

ENTJ: atten-shun! Prepare for 6am entry! Present ass!
INTP: Zzzzzz......

It's just too funny.

I had a good laugh too. If it's true that ENTJs tend to have such inclinations, omgosh please keep them far away from me... !!!!

 

[Zero]

Somehow INTJs always eventually drive me crazy and surprisingly it's not because of the NT or anything, but rather when it gets into the emotional stuff... I guess the INTJs I've met are somewhat emotionally starved and end up self-absorbed from it.

ENTJs sound like they would drive me nuts too...

I like being single...

 

[murkrow]

If you don't schedule something it might never happen!

If two people are in a relationship and sexually attracted to each other I don't see what's wrong with having a relatively organized sex life.

I assume that in an INTP/ENTJ relationship the way it would work out is that there would be sex at most of the "scheduled" times and then also at the times when the INTP suddenly wants to jump the ENTJ's bones.

Also while you might think it's funny to imagine the situation in a way where the male is ENTJ, I think it's a lot funnier when the female is ENTJ.

"Honey if you don't stop reading that silly book you're going to miss your window."

 

[loveofreason]

A mild mannered INTP professor and his ENTJ Domme...

The mind boggles


Ahem. You imagine your INTP will see the advantages of your schedule? You might find the rewards of keeping things a little unpredictable outweigh the benefit of certainty.

 

[murkrow]

Well it's not like I'm going to post it on the fridge!

It's just natural that I take a more scheduled approach to sex.

things like

"So after we do the groceries we'll call your parents and then have sex before you start on dinner."

come out of my mouth often.

 

[loveofreason]

INTP replies: Lets stay in, forget the parents, have sex and order pizza!

Seriously, I can't actually imagine an INTP enjoying being told what to do like you're illustrating. Maybe as a novelty. But long-term? Who's cooking dinner?

 

[murkrow]

I don't see how you equate planning with commanding.

It's not like the ENTJ is saying "OKAY! This is the schedule I have arranged for you today. Failure to comply will result in divorce." it's more like "This is the stuff we have to do today and here's my suggestion on the order we do it in, are we in accord?".

 

[Perseus]

I don't quite understand perfectly why these two types are idealy matched, and I am looking for someone with insight on this.

Thank you.

They are contrasted.

Contrast
point and counterpoint on each function

I have trouble with these people. It is when two Intuitives clash that the problem occurs. When I go out on a ENTP it gets worse, because they then know where I am at. They think I am a Snake in the grass.

Not as much as ESFJ though.

I have got a name for the EJ type offhand.

http://soredragon.blogspot.com/2008/06/judge-dread.html

Andy

 

[Perseus]

I don't see how you equate planning with commanding.

It's not like the ENTJ is saying "OKAY! This is the schedule I have arranged for you today. Failure to comply will result in divorce." it's more like "This is the stuff we have to do today and here's my suggestion on the order we do it in, are we in accord?".

I'm in accord with you, but not necessarily in accord with the Bully Commander (ENTJ). In normal circumstances, I will probably ignore the commands as an INTP. As an ENTP I would not even hear them. Snakes are deaf but can feel vibrations.

The mission might be resolved by dialogue. It is more likely to be resolved by dirty tricks on the part of the ENTJ who feels the need to be in total command like Stalin and Mugabe. The ENTJ may even call in the military or the Police to eliminate the objectors.

Andy
http://soredragon.blogspot.com/

 

[loveofreason]

I don't see how you equate planning with commanding.

It's not like the ENTJ is saying "OKAY! This is the schedule I have arranged for you today. Failure to comply will result in divorce." it's more like "This is the stuff we have to do today and here's my suggestion on the order we do it in, are we in accord?".

This highlights a potential communication difficulty between INTP and ENTJ.

You may not mean to sound like you're giving orders, but the INTP will probably hear it that way. What to you is an expression of natural planning ability (a positive contribution) can impact on others as an attempt to control when control is not welcome.

Hope you're prepared for some tough communication slog when you find your dancing firecracker. If she's INTP she might not read you right.

 

[murkrow]

I'm in accord with you, but not necessarily in accord with the Bully Commander (ENTJ). In normal circumstances, I will probably ignore the commands as an INTP. As an ENTP I would not even hear them. Snakes are deaf but can feel vibrations.

The mission might be resolved by dialogue. It is more likely to be resolved by dirty tricks on the part of the ENTJ who feels the need to be in total command like Stalin and Mugabe. The ENTJ may even call in the military or the Police to eliminate the objectors.

Andy
http://soredragon.blogspot.com/

Your total ignorance of how ENTJs act is, once again, deeply insulting.

An ENTJ's need for control isn't rooted in satisfaction from giving orders like an ESTJ's is. ENTJs are prone to accepting things they get from reliable sources (and they consider their intuitions a reliable source most of the time) as fact and incorporating those facts into their plans instantly. Due to the ENTJ's constant adaptive planning and skill for optimum utilisation of resources they are the best suited type for leadership positions requiring ambitious thinking. As an ENTJ I can't sit in the background once I have commited myself to a project, and since no one else has the foresight and awareness of potential that I have I must take the position of excecutive decision maker. ENTJs don't bully because they respect the intuitions of others, unlike ESTJs who are incapable of conceptual thinking and accept only hard experience to be fact.

Admittedly ENTJs do have a tendency to be rough, especially from the perspective of an F type.

Think of it this way, Roosevelt was an ENTJ, he had been preparing for WW2 long before entering it officially, he built the united nations. George Bush jr. is an ESTJ, he had evidence of 9/11 but didn't do anything about it, he reacted poorly when it did happen and removed the freedoms of his people when under stress.

I know I paint a poor picture of ESTJs in comparison to my own type but really I think the idea of giving a senser responsibility in a situation he can't study for is absolutely ridiculous.

This highlights a potential communication difficulty between INTP and ENTJ.

You may not mean to sound like you're giving orders, but the INTP will probably hear it that way. What to you is an expression of natural planning ability (a positive contribution) can impact on others as an attempt to control when control is not welcome.

Hope you're prepared for some tough communication slog when you find your dancing firecracker. If she's INTP she might not read you right.

Love will conquer all.

 

[rocky00753]

This is funny.
Intp, my fiancee is an ENTJ.
His perfect honesty, fowardness, is sometimes frustrating. IE. Being friends with Ex's, they mean nothing anyway, what is the deal??? attitude (though I KNOW he means it) still plays on my mind way too much. Is it a trait of INTP's to be jealous???

Other than that. Perfect relationship. Work well as a team.

Both artists! DO NOT! I REPEAT DO NOT think that they will calm your grandiose ideas!!! More likely to think of things to add to them! What I can say is that they will push you to finish them, and push you to a higher standard.

We are getting married. Our ambition, to build a real life castle. We want to be under way when we are 40. Oh well 20-25 years time, I will let you know if it is happened. If it has, it is a pretty good clue that the types make for a good partnership.

 

[murkrow]

Take that, naysayers!

 

[Wisp]

Quiet, you!

 

[Ogion]

Murkrow: May i ask, why you are in this forum anyway? Please do not understand this as a throwout attempt, that is defenitely not my wish (I like having diverse discussion partners). I merely want to ask why you as ENTJ (It was ENTJ, right?) are in this forum. I am just interested.

Ogion

 

[Decaf]

I'm an INTP and my mom is an ENTJ. Despite growing up with my dad and visiting my mom on the weekends I grew up much closer to her than to my dad (ISTP). Part of that I'm certain is the natural way our types relate to each other about ideas. I find that in talking to her, she gives me most of my ideas for the application of whatever obscure topic I'm studying. She's the one that got me thinking about becoming a hiring consultant.

One of the weaknesses of my own way of thinking, and I suspect most INTPs, is that my method of trying to apply my ideas to real life often lead me to other ideas, not solutions. I get lost in a sea of innovation without application. That's not to say I haven't come up with some of my own applications, but it isn't the easy part of the process, and its a relief to get the help of someone who relishes the opportunity.

 

[Wisp]

@Ogion:

Murkrow said it in a different thread. He wanted advice on how to locate/stalk a female INTP for use as a partner... As to why he's still here, maybe he just hasn't succeeded? Or maybe we're just awesome. =)

I like that better.

 

[Ogion]

Ah, ok. Well, i'd like the second (awesome) better, but i don't need it to survive :-P

Ogion

P.S.:

locate/stalk a female INTP for use as a partner

Hm, i have to muse about that formulation a bit, especially the use part... :-D (Sounds quite 'murkrow-ish' to say)

 

[Wisp]

Good to see my chameleon circuits are functioning properly.

 

[Ogion]

Haha, well yes, they seem to do. (As well as my perceiption of that )

Ogion

 

[Wisp]

I supposed you missed the reference... =( (Doctor Who)