• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

Why I don't believe in MBTI.

BurnedOut

Your friendly neighborhood asshole
Local time
Today 6:24 PM
Joined
Apr 19, 2016
Messages
1,457
---
Location
A fucking black hole
2022-04-24_09-17.png

My gripe with MBTI is that it does not understand that it is very difficult to generalize cognition into 8 definite functions that too in a definite order. MBTI's descriptions of personalities also depend on what it calls 'shadow functions' which is always assumes to be in detriment in comparison to the ones that make your type. My shadow functions are not shadow functions at all. They work pretty much in tandem with my dominant functions and not antagonistically. I am not at all surprised by this result. That is why I wonder why I kept testing as an INTJ so frequently alongside INTP.

I had made a thread regarding your childhood and analytical skills. It is not difficult to spot that if I had not encountered the computer, I may have turned out to be very different. If nurture plays a more influential in shaping your type then your type is more or less invalid.

I am currently forming a rather big piece of critique in my head but right now, I would like to keep this discussion open.

Here's the link: https://www.similarminds.com/classic_jung.html
 

Ex-User (9086)

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 12:54 PM
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,758
---
Recently considered this for a while and made a thread on "my own personality theory".

In there I'm making a hypothesis that everyone is all mbti personalities all at once and certain situations and environment shapes which personality gets expressed at that point. INTP could have tested as INFP if they had better emotional intelligence. That said mbti only touches on a fragment of possible personalities and couldn't describe everything.

Also yeah, everyone uses all functions a lot because they're each needed in some scenarios. The idea that we would only have 4 main functions is clearly false.

Finally Ti and Ni are the same thing, but expressed differently. Te Se and Ne are a part of a bigger system and it gets called Te when it deals with thinking, Se when it's sensory input or Ne when it's ideas and connections.

Going back to what I used to say about mbti being a "cash grab". If 5 minutes of informal thinking can debunk the whole book then the author of mbti was primarily motivated by making money off said book and not making a robust system.
 

sushi

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 12:54 PM
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Messages
1,841
---
yea its psuedo crap , but i am trying to rationalize it in terms of inputs and outputs
 

EndogenousRebel

Even a mean person is trying their best, right?
Local time
Today 6:54 AM
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
2,252
---
Location
Narnia
I can't believe this man just took a shit on the unique assessment I posted and then goes off and posts a thread about the same thing he was calling garbage. Well played good sir
 

scorpiomover

The little professor
Local time
Today 12:54 PM
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
3,383
---
View attachment 5946

My gripe with MBTI is that it does not understand that it is very difficult to generalize cognition into 8 definite functions that too in a definite order.
Well, MBTI can't understand anything. It's a theory, not a person.

If you mean that most online descriptions of MBTI are unrealistic, that's because use of social media to raise one's social profile and assessments of competancy has dominated the internet.

Those online descriptions meant to be unrealistic, so that those who put up such online descriptions seem to be more competent, capable, and intelligent, than they really are.

MBTI's descriptions of personalities also depend on what it calls 'shadow functions' which is always assumes to be in detriment in comparison to the ones that make your type. My shadow functions are not shadow functions at all. They work pretty much in tandem with my dominant functions and not antagonistically.
Sounds like your understanding of the functions is extremely inconsistent with the concept of shadow functions, then, which means that either the descriptions that you're relying on are incorrect, or your perception of shadow functions is incorrect, or both are incorrect. Your descriptions may still be the online descriptions that you read, though.

I am not at all surprised by this result. That is why I wonder why I kept testing as an INTJ so frequently alongside INTP.
When it comes to cognitive function test, lots of Ts test highly in Ti and Te, and lots of ns test highly in Ni and Ne.

I had made a thread regarding your childhood and analytical skills. It is not difficult to spot that if I had not encountered the computer, I may have turned out to be very different.
Everyone who was born at least 200 years before the modern computer became ubiquitous in the world, grew up, lived and died without encountering a modern computer. So basically, everyone who was born between the first humans 200,000 years ago, to 200 years ago, i.e. the vast majority of humanity.

If nurture plays a more influential in shaping your type then your type is more or less invalid.
Nurture plays a massive influence in shaping the way your body works, let alone your mind.

I am currently forming a rather big piece of critique in my head but right now, I would like to keep this discussion open.

Here's the link: https://www.similarminds.com/classic_jung.html
I was recently asked to review that site's description of INTPs, and pointed out that except for it saying that INTPs are usually atheists, the rest is straight out of any psychologist's description of someone with depression, anxiety and social phobia.

So that site's descriptions may not be entirely accurate.
 

BurnedOut

Your friendly neighborhood asshole
Local time
Today 6:24 PM
Joined
Apr 19, 2016
Messages
1,457
---
Location
A fucking black hole
I can't believe this man just took a shit on the unique assessment I posted and then goes off and posts a thread about the same thing he was calling garbage. Well played good sir
Cannot help it. I love playing the devil's advocate but my stance on MBTI is pretty straightforward and clear. I don't see any kind of cupidity on my part.
 

onesteptwostep

Junior Hegelian
Local time
Today 9:54 PM
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
4,253
---
I think most people who've engaged with the MBTI for a very long time arrive at the conclusion that MBTI is descriptive, not prescriptive. That's what I try to emphasize anyway. We've had plenty of discussions on this forum that the cognitive functions are not in anyway empirical or rigorous. Try the search bar on the INTP section of the forum. We've talked about this to death.

There are different views on how the cog functions can manifest in someone though, and there is literature from Jung that explains why the order is the way it is. At least I think so.. it's been a while since I've or anyone on this forum has done deepthought/research on MBTI.
 

ZenRaiden

One atom of me
Local time
Today 12:54 PM
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
5,262
---
Location
Between concrete walls
So it is describing things and it does not prescribe?
You do realize this does not apply to personality?
It applies to making cake?
 

onesteptwostep

Junior Hegelian
Local time
Today 9:54 PM
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
4,253
---
I don't understand what you're trying to say, but if I were to clarify what I've said, MBTI is more of a sketch of the various subjective cognitive perspectives an individual might experience. It illustrates very roughly the contours of experience.

I would make an analogy to Kant's thing-in-it-of-itself. We don't know what it truly is in appearance, but we can speculate on how cognition can operate. I think other modern personality theories are more like phenomenology in that they use qualitative measures to describe personality, rather than resonance with a descriptor. MBTI is sort of like how John Locke explains the different sensations, differentiating things like thought with experience.

I would say that the MBTI isn't a personality theory. It's more like a set of descriptors for cognition.
 

Black Rose

An unbreakable bond
Local time
Today 5:54 AM
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
11,431
---
Location
with mama
tests don't measure functions.
but functions are not arbitrary.
the dominant function is clearly prominent in people.
 

BurnedOut

Your friendly neighborhood asshole
Local time
Today 6:24 PM
Joined
Apr 19, 2016
Messages
1,457
---
Location
A fucking black hole
It's more like a set of descriptors for cognition.
I feel that you are not understanding the dilemma that I am addressing. The sodden theory cannot even hold water in an abstract sense. It goes out of its way from being descriptive to prescriptive and make the test taker delusional about themselves. This has not been discussed before. For some reason, MBTI refuses to die in academia despite being quartered and drawn from all directions several times. This is a severe problem because pseudosciences should NOT be paid heed to, especially by academia let alone the general populace.
 

BurnedOut

Your friendly neighborhood asshole
Local time
Today 6:24 PM
Joined
Apr 19, 2016
Messages
1,457
---
Location
A fucking black hole
So that site's descriptions may not be entirely accurate.
The claptrap I keep reading about people who got tested as an INTP infuriates me. It comes off as offensive because it is very much clear how nonneutral the descriptions are.

Anyway, when I get time, I will try to do a word count analysis to prove my point that these descriptions are crap. There are several common patterns that I keep spotting in all MBTI descriptions:
1. Repetition of the 'crux' - INTP is a social retard and are emotionally unstable and lonely
2. Unsolicited advice - Do 'X' and pay heed to 'Z'. You don't know 'A' about yourself, I will tell you how 'A' functions in you.
3. Barnum statements - The most cloying feature of all. 'INTPs usually need to be all by themselves but their Fe causes them to engage in social niceties every once in a while.' or 'INTPs are highly rational but they may seem irrational when under the pressure of their inferior function.'
4. More references to pseudoscience - Psychologyjunkie is one such website. 'INTPs are dominantly left-brained.' Whatever the fuck that means. We use both of sides equally with equal intensity at 100% capacity.
5. Excessive usage of adjectives - Clearly shows how incapable MBTI is arriving at logical conclusions about the test taker's behaviour and so it resorts to descriptions after descriptions rather than actually attempting to express how it reached a particular conclusion by logic.
6. Vague descriptions of functions - No clarity on what 'Judging/Perceiving' means. Many websites say that 'INTPs are internally judging.' How does this make sense? Similarly Ni doms are known to be internally perceiving. Lots of similar poppycock and unnecessary distinctions for common mental processes that it continuously mistakes for being tangible.
7. Typing celebs and dead people and TV show simping - This is too stupid to even comment on.
8. (Most) Authors are into self-help bullshit - Most of the leading MBTI websites that provide descriptions and write articles have some kind of self-help crap going on. Most of them are selling books containing hundreds of pages. There is no better self-help than mindfulness and emotional resilience. That is not something that you can glean over from stupid books and actually try to make it work without any effort. When someone into self-help neck deep, I am deeply skeptical of them because 9/10 times they are self-deceptive.
9. Unhealthily stereotyping and pretending to be neutral - INTPs are depressive, ESFJ being too sensitive, etc.

It is uncannily similar to a religion that gets flak from the society but the followers are emboldened more by rejection than acceptance. Everybody who believes in MBTI has snowflake syndrome to some degree similar and they are never able to actually materialize the benefits of typing somebody. After typing, the first thing every MBTI believer does is attempt to read more embellishing stuff about themselves and then start shitting on everybody who is not their type. Do you find it surprising that in the 21st century wherein the internet is widely available, INTPs are called 'one of the rarest' but are over-represented on the internet? I only wonder how many of them have been mistyped and going gunslinging on innumerable gullible folks with their 'knowledge of psycho(patho)logy'
 

ZenRaiden

One atom of me
Local time
Today 12:54 PM
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
5,262
---
Location
Between concrete walls
That is why I reverted back to horoscopes.
Much more reliable.
Plus they are so intrinsically more nuanced and personal.
I basically found out that if you do have the right sign you might actually be more to it you know.

Anyway MBTI has so many blind spots.
For example TV stars are so over rated.
Its like everyone is ENTP there.
MOst of them are ISTJs anyway.

INTP is and always will be the smartest type. Sorry INTJ.
The problem is that INTP are to weak when it comes to social situations.
Especially when it comes to last function FE.

So you know its bad when INTPs struggle.
Also you know the whole nerd thing?
I mean not every INTP is nerd.
For example I am more like obsessive hermit if that makes sense?
And then you have lots of other things.
 

onesteptwostep

Junior Hegelian
Local time
Today 9:54 PM
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
4,253
---
It's more like a set of descriptors for cognition.
I feel that you are not understanding the dilemma that I am addressing. The sodden theory cannot even hold water in an abstract sense. It goes out of its way from being descriptive to prescriptive and make the test taker delusional about themselves. This has not been discussed before. For some reason, MBTI refuses to die in academia despite being quartered and drawn from all directions several times. This is a severe problem because pseudosciences should NOT be paid heed to, especially by academia let alone the general populace.

I would say that that's a problem with how people interpret the results. There's a lot of mbti related literature out there that has been added to the indicator that creates a culture and lore of the 16 types. That isn't the fault of mbti.

Also from reading your latter posts it seems you haven't familiarized yourself with how the indicator was created by Jung. He explains the J/P differences and why certain types are set in certain cog function order, etc. I'm on my phone at the moment, but I'll try to fetch the links that show his literature once I get on a desktop.
 

Daddy

Making the Frogs Gay
Local time
Today 7:54 AM
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
462
---
astrology > all.
I'm an 8 legged war pig sun
lion headed goat moon
And God of War Ascendent
all ftw.
 

onesteptwostep

Junior Hegelian
Local time
Today 9:54 PM
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
4,253
---
@BurnedOut
I think threads like this are pretty informative on what the discussions were back then: What is your theory of type anyway? | INTP Forum
And this one's a classic, at least for me: Why MBTI is a fraud | INTP Forum

As for the literature, Jung's book was called Psychological Types (which I never read entirely), but it's generally known to be the prototype of the MBTI. I'm not sure whether or not you're interested in reading it but I found a site where you can: Psychological types: or, the psychology of individuation : Jung, C. G. (Carl Gustav), 1875-1961 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
Local time
Today 10:24 PM
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
7,065
---
I think threads like this are pretty informative on what the discussions were back then: What is your theory of type anyway? | INTP Forum
And this one's a classic, at least for me: Why MBTI is a fraud | INTP Forum

Oh man, nostalgia. People were so much more coherent back then even if many were pompous and full of shit. Reading these and seeing Inquisitor accusing people of being too young or Architect fabricating the entire field of psychology from nothing feels like winning INTPf nostalgia bingo.
 

onesteptwostep

Junior Hegelian
Local time
Today 9:54 PM
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
4,253
---
I think threads like this are pretty informative on what the discussions were back then: What is your theory of type anyway? | INTP Forum
And this one's a classic, at least for me: Why MBTI is a fraud | INTP Forum

Oh man, nostalgia. People were so much more coherent back then even if many were pompous and full of shit. Reading these and seeing Inquisitor accusing people of being too young or Architect fabricating the entire field of psychology from nothing feels like winning INTPf nostalgia bingo.

Yeah.. we had a lot more hardcore thinkers back then.
 

sushi

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 12:54 PM
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Messages
1,841
---
16 types cant describe the wide variety of personalities in this world

but there should be minimum amount of base personalities as there are colors, the rest is mixture.

Keep one person in a empty room and there is no personality.
 
Top Bottom