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Who- why- where are we ?

waechter418

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It seems that since we are aware of ourselves we have been trying to find out who, why & where we are and that many of our religions, cosmologies, philosophies and sciences developed around this quest.

The answers differ widely, see for example neurologists, Buddha, Hegel, astrophysicists, Lao Tse or Christian fundamentalists - yet each insists to have the right answer, which is understandable, after all, it is not easy to admit that the quest has been in vain and increases our confusion.

What went wrong?
 

onesteptwostep

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Answer? We haven't even gotten the right question.
 

Pyropyro

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PaulMaster

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Who says anything went wrong?

Exactly. Nothing is wrong - or everything is wrong. Or some things are wrong.

Value is subjective so it'll depend on who you ask.

Actually, these "who/what/where/why are we" questions are exactly my brand of vodka. I've always been able to find common threads, at the most basic level, between most of the main theories.

I sum it up by saying we are waves in an ocean of everythingness.
 

Rook

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Be birthed, survive, die.

The middle part is mainly done according to personal preferences.

No confusion necessary.
 

Happy

sorry for english
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The answers differ widely, see for example neurologists, Buddha, Hegel, astrophysicists, Lao Tse or Christian fundamentalists - yet each insists to have the right answer, which is understandable, after all, it is not easy to admit that the quest has been in vain and increases our confusion.

I'll happily admit the quest has been in vain. Fuck it.
 

RaBind

sparta? THIS IS MADNESS!!!
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Apophenia /æpoʊˈfiːniə/ is the human tendency to perceive meaningful patterns within random data.

Also the fact that intps are characteristic of looking for the underlying principles of systems and patterns, which can lead to them being dependent on the idea of there being a higher level abstract principle that governs life/reality. This just may not be the case, and even if it were it may be inconceivable in almost all cases.
 

Haim

Worlds creator
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It seems that since we are aware of ourselves we have been trying to find out who, why & where we are and that many of our religions, cosmologies, philosophies and sciences developed around this quest.

The answers differ widely, see for example neurologists, Buddha, Hegel, astrophysicists, Lao Tse or Christian fundamentalists - yet each insists to have the right answer, which is understandable, after all, it is not easy to admit that the quest has been in vain and increases our confusion.

What went wrong?
When you try to go to some place that doesn't exists, you will get lost.
There is no why, this is just human concept, where?here.
Who?a living organism, an arrogant one thinking that he transcend animals and nature, while the relationship is a type of symbiosis and nothing special.
 

Yellow

for the glory of satan
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Ooh! Looks like someone is looking for this book:
It's available in most local libraries.

718o1eBXibL.jpg
TL;DR:
There's nothing wrong with humanity. We comprise one global culture that's spun wildly out of control. This culture began 10,000 years ago in the fertile crescent at the onset of the agricultural revolution. The agricultural revolution is still going on, and it has succeeded in eliminating nearly every one of the thousands, perhaps millions of cultures that existed among humans.

The job of culture is to tie us to our home. To tie us to something greater than ourselves. It encompasses what we call religion, laws, language, social structure, and your role in life. If done right, like humans do naturally, like we've witnessed/documented in brief glimpses in ever-remote pockets of the world in the last 1,000 years, people were their culture. Each individual was a complete embodiment of the culture they live in. To follow the rules and ways of one's culture is a foundation of one's identity. Like fingers on a hand.

Now, we're a bunch of severed fingers all lumped together because our culture doesn't make sense on a global scale. No culture can, because that's not what culture is. We're smart animals, and we know this isn't right. We feel the loss. We mourn for something we've never even experienced. We're lonely, desperate fingers who can never form a hand. In fact, I think we've largely forgotten that hands exist. So we take to religion, drugs, grand idealism, government, genocide, and the destruction of our home. We're lost orphans who don't know any better.

Humanity has been around for over a million years. This last 10,000 is just a blip. It's just us. If we can find a way to abandon this broken culture, we have a chance at restoring our humanity before it's too late. I don't know how to do it, but this book helps identify the problem. It shows you the prison walls, if you will. We just have to hope that someone, somewhere (or many someones in many somewhere) is clever enough to come up with ideas that can help us escape.
It's the first step to answering your questions, if you're trying to avoid "because god", "because science", and "it's a fucking mystery" kinds of answers.

When that's done, feel free to read "My Ishmael" and "The Story of B". It helps to cement the whole concept.

You can thank me later.

:D
 

waechter418

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Who says anything went wrong?

If “who, why, where” are searches for identity, I think that we experience an identity crisis which manifests in:

an unprecedented deterioration of parents-children-family-generation interrelationships

the decay of virtues that help to sustain oneself in times of trouble (like courage, self-reliance, pride, honor, righteousness)

our almost religious worship of money & possessions

our growing dependency on artifacts and disability to survive without them

our increasing disconnection from nature (Gaia) and tendency to destroy it – and thus our species…

(hope i am wrong)
 
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I'll happily admit the quest has been in vain. Fuck it.


How can you 'admit' this when it's impossible to know if the extensive philosophies/ideologies/beliefs throughout human history are wrong or right since in some (most?) cases they're obscure enough to be impervious to logical analysis? (Then again, the earth being balanced on an invisible pink elephant is technically unfalsifiable yet this doesn't mean it's a creditable idea.) Granted, the probability of us having figured out the lofty universal answers as of today is extremely slim, next to zero in fact...Ah, on second thought, maybe admit isn't as ill-fitting a word as I initially thought.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Black Rose

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Just a while ago I went into a sleep meditation.
I was semi aware and began to visualize forms.
I believe in the uttermost being of every person.
That every person is capable of self transcendence.
Every moment we are awake we can shine kindness.
I believe that we all need to internalize that we are awake.
Nothing is beyond your grasp, all you need to do is to let go.
Let go of having to think it takes effort to become enlightened.
With every move of your body, with every step you are awake.
And what matters not is of no concern because confusion is to seek control.
By letting go of control you are free, you are awake, you have your answers.
They are all correct, they all tell you to let go of the control you think you have.
In this way you gain the peace of mind you so desperately want from life.

It is all true.

"God is not the author of confusion."

Mathew 6

25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?
 

DoIMustHaveAnUsername?

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Who?
The elusive I

Here’s something you can try at home. Or on the bus, for that matter. You can do it with your eyes closed or open, in a quiet room or a noisy street. All you have to do is this: identify yourself.
I don’t mean stand up and say your name. I mean catch hold of that which is you, rather than just the things that you do or experience. To do this, focus your attention on yourself. Try to locate in your own consciousness the ‘I’ that is you, the person who is feeling hot or cold, thinking your thoughts, hearing the sounds around you and so on. I’m not asking you to locate your feelings, sensations and thoughts, but the person, the self, who is having them.

It should be easy. After all, what is more certain in this world than that you exist? Even if everything around you is a dream or an illusion, you must exist to have the dream, to do the hallucinating. So if you turn your mind inwards and try to become aware only of yourself, it should not take long to find it. Go on. Have a go.
Any luck?


Source: Book I of A Treatise on Human Nature by David Hume (1739–40)
The moment you became aware of anything it would have been something quite specific: a thought, a feeling, a sensation, a sound, a smell. But in no such case would you have been aware of*yourself*as such.

You can describe each of the experiences you had, but not the you that had them.

But, you might protest, how can I be aware of me if I am the one being aware? For instance, it is true that when I looked at the book in front of me, what I was aware of was the book and not me. But in another sense I was aware that it was*me*seeing the book.

It just isn’t possible to detach myself from the experience. Which is why there is no special awareness of I, only an awareness of what I am aware of.

The self which has the experiences can be seen in exactly the same way. It is true that, if I look at the book in front of me, I am aware not only that there is a visual experience, but that it is an experience from a certain point of view. But nothing about the nature of that point of view is revealed by the experience.

The ‘I’ is thus still a nothing, a contentless centre around which experiences flutter like butterflies.

On this view, if we ask what the self is, the answer is that it is nothing more than the sum of all the experiences that are connected together by virtue of sharing this one point of view.

We have no awareness of what we are, only an awareness of what we experience. That doesn’t mean we don’t exist, but it does mean that we lack a constant core of being, a single self that endures over time, which we so often assume, wrongly, makes us the individuals we are.


The Theseus Ship

‘If you want to live, you’d better tell me which one of these is the real Theseus,’ demanded Ray.

‘That kinda depends,’ came the nervous reply. ‘You see, when we started to repair the ship, we needed to replace lots of parts. Only, we kept all the old parts. But as the work progressed, we ended up replacing virtually everything. When we had finished, some of the guys thought it would be good to use all the old parts to reconstruct another version of the ship. So that’s what we’ve got. On the left, the Theseus repaired with new parts and on the right, the Theseus restored from old parts.’

‘But which one is the genuine Theseus?’ demanded Ray.

‘I’ve told you all I know!’ screamed the guard, as the crony tightened his grip. Ray scratched his head and started to think about how he could get away with both

Source: Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes (1651)

In a way, are we not like Theseus too?
As we go through life, the cells in our body continually die and are replaced.
Our thoughts too change.
So that little of what was in our heads when we were ten years old remains when we are twenty, and these thoughts, memories, convictions and dispositions are in turn replaced as we grow older.
Are we then to say that there is no right answer as to whether we are the same people who we were many years ago?
If the identity of*Theseus*is not a factual matter, then can there be a fact about the identity of anything that gradually changes over time, human beings included?

As pointed out by David Hume, our thought, feeling, conviction, will or the five senses, none of them, alone is the self
As insinuated by The Theseus Ship thought experiment, our thoughts, feelings, personality, body structure all are in continuous flux.
There are certain times, when we don’t consciously control our thoughts (for example, thoughts conjured up during the approach towards slumber or the thoughts that make up the dreams) or feelings (for example, when you feel fear) or body (for example, sleep-walking and reflexive actions).
But there are times when it appears that we consciously control our thoughts, body or sometimes even feelings.
By controlling I mean, directing something in accordance to my intention.
But then, to control my intention I need to intent my intention but to do that I have to intent my intention to intent and so on. It thus becomes an infinite regression.
What we intent or will or desire depends on our likes, dislike, preferences, curiosity or something alike.
There are times when we do things that we don’t like or that we dislike. Such cases occur mostly due to external constraints or limited choice or our like or desire for some probable long-term consequence.
We feel curiosity for something if the thing feels interesting to us or matches some of our preferences, which again depends on our likes or desires.
What we likes or dislike depends on our feelings. Roughly speaking, we like what we feel good about and we dislike what we feel bad about. These feelings are mostly inherent in us or conditioned by society.
So our intentions ultimately depends on our feelings.
We may be able to control or change our feelings but in order to do so we need the intention or desire. But our intentions or desire also depends on feelings. Therefore it is simply a war amongst different feelings all of which in itself may be beyond the control of the self.
What we think also depends on our intent, will, interest, preferences etc. which again can be said to depend on our feelings which again may be beyond control.
In meditative states, it can be discovered that thoughts and feelings comes and goes without any control exerted by the observer.
Therefore, thoughts, feelings and the five senses none are really ‘the self’ when considered isolatedly. Plus, thoughts, feelings and all are pointed out to be inconstant and without any real control. So none of them should have any association with a constant self.
So we must find ‘the self’ if we remove all that is ‘not-self’ i.e, thoughts, feelings and the five senses. But when we do so, there remains no vision, no sound, no feeling, no thought, nothing at all.
So is there no real ‘I’? Is the self in actuality ‘void’?
No. If we believe so, then we are forgetting something. Awareness.
When we see, we are aware of sight, when we listen we are aware of the sound, when it appears that we think, we are aware of thoughts. The fundament of our subjective experience is thus awareness.
If we remove the five senses and thoughts, feelings and every object away from experience, not necessarily nothing remains but awareness without anything to be aware of.
Without awareness there will not be awareness of thoughts, feelings or sensations and thus there will be no experience. Therefore awareness is the necessary element for our subjective experience to arise.
Based on that reasoning, the quality of awareness itself can be considered as the subject of our experience and therefore ‘the self’.
However, it is also true that awareness independent of any object to be aware of, is practically nothing.
Plus there is also no control over our awareness. We cannot make ourselves unaware of pain in a whim.
Even if we can do it without some special mental training, we must need the intent to do so but again control over intention is quite doubtful as explained previously.
So in that sense ‘awareness’ is ‘just is’. It is simply ‘being’. It can be called as ‘self’ in the sense that it is the subject of experience but we like to believe ‘the self’ to be something more: a thinker, a controlling agent and a single consistent entity running the mental processes. In that respect, even awareness is probably a ‘no-self’.

Many of us intuitively believe in the existence of ‘one consistent controlling agent’ behind our thoughts, feelings and such. But from the philosophies mentioned before and even from actual scientific researches, reality appears to be counter intuitive. Internet is real but it is not a single object. Instead, it is a network of networks constantly changing. No single entity or computer ‘runs’ the internet. Our own mind is found to be similar to internet in that respect. It is a dynamic network of multitudes of neurons which determines how we behave but there is no ‘one’ entity behind it all. You may say that you are ‘the awareness’. But its more of ‘a quality’ than anything else;
‘A contentless centre around which experiences flutter like butterflies’.
Why?
PURPOSE AND SIGNIFICANCE


A program may serves a purpose P of adding all the numbers that are divisible by 999 under a given range.
But what is the point of such operation?
There is this purpose P but what is the significance of such a purpose?

Perhaps this operation done by the program is a part of a bigger program that utilizes it for a bigger purpose.
But then I can ask what is the point of this bigger purpose?
So answering the point of a purpose by another purpose is kind of regressive.

Let us assume there isn't a point for this program in this case.
There isn't any meaning of the purpose; the program adds whatever just cause it does.

There are people who find lack of objective purpose unsettling.
Then let us assume that human life has a purpose which is to provide research data to some alien overlord who is manipulating our life, inducing pain and suffering to our being with advanced machines just for some data.

Would then the people who don't like the lack of purpose, be happy with such a purpose?
Would they gladly serve as slaves for some alien if only human life was created for a purpose like serving aliens?

Or when they were talking about purpose they were talking about a meaningful purpose?
But may be what is meaningless to humans may be meaningful for the aliens....so then what they really want, is a purpose that is meaningful to them not just any purpose?

Having a mundane purpose or relatively pointless purpose is pretty much same as having no purpose at all....Same in the sense is that there is a lack of meaningfulness is both the cases.


SIGNIFICANCE

Now what exactly is significance?
From observation, it appears to me significance is related to our personal values, feelings, fear etc.
For example, humans in general mostly think death to be a big deal, and they would rather avoid it. So in effect terminal diseases are also a matter of big distress.
So if someone finds an effecient cure for a previously uncurable or hard-to cure coommon terminal disease, that cure might be viewed as 'significant'.
One may find art to be meaningful because one get to feel a certain pleasure and depth from aesthetics and stuff.
Money may be viewed as significant if one wants to drive Lamborghini.
On the other hand one may be interested in living in forest and pursuing isolation and inner peace and thereby view money as insignificant or not-so-significant.

So almost all the time meaningfulness and significance is related to our personal values, desire, fear, etc

That is, its subjective.


SIGNIFICANCE OF LIFE

If significance is a subjective matter then so is significance of life.
Purpose of 'life in general', if there are any, is not that depended on human feelings and opinions. It may not even be as convenient. The existing purpose may be worse than no-purpose at all.
What people who believes in existence of a meaning of life probably believes in the existence of some significant meaningful purpose.....
But whether something is significant or not, is a subjective matter.

Beings who are utterly apathetic and even expresses a meh regarding death may not find life to matter at all. Irrespective of life having purpose or not, it would be still meaningless (without significance) to such beings.

PURPOSE OF LIFE

How to determine the purpose of something?
It can be probably determined by observing the functions executed by the something.
For example it can be concluded that the purpose a program is to add by observing its code and output.

But is this process of determination valid for all cases?
Not really.

Sometimes some objects may induce subjective effects thereby making its purpose kind of subjective....

For example some art-piece may induce a feeling of attraction of person A but a feeling of repulsion to person B. So its function is not that concrete.

There another a bit more abstract variety of purpose.....for example a purpose given by the creator to the creation.
For example an artist creating something for a specific reason.
The reason may not be easily interpreted, the artist's creation may end up serving a function
different from the original intention, but its purpose of existence\being created is still the original purpose for which the artist created it.


Now which form of purpose does life serve?
Reproduction, growth, evolution and all of these stuffs are kind of apparent functions of living organisms in general.
Is that it, the purpose of life?

Or is there something more, perhaps a higher power who gave a higher reason to life.
Note that if a purpose is given it is given mostly be a person. Some chemical reactions may end up producing a fire...the fire is created by not really any purpose is given by the chemical reactions to the fire, apparently.
The question of giving a purpose comes, mostly in case of a creator, programming etc creating something and assigning a purpose for that thing to serve.
So is there a creator of life giving purpose to it?
But if the creator is a person and it is considered as 'alive'...then that means it didn't created life to begin with.
How can the creator of life be alive? If the creator was alive before creating life, then life already existed before creation.
That means if life has a beginning it is from non living materials. That purpose of life is pretty much the functions of life which aren't really subjective either and can be studied in biology and stuff.

So in summary what is the function of life, what is the purpose it seves...what is life doing reproducing, evolving bla bla bla?

The answer is pretty obvious and observable.

Purpose of life is to....create a being intelligent enough to find the answer to the question: what is 6x7? JK.

X: Why are you doing this?

Y: Why did you once slip on ice?

X: Where is the relevance?

Y: Simply, answer the question.

X: Because ice is slippery.

Y: Why is ice slippery?

X: Because pressure momentarily melts the surface of the ice, and makes the surface a bit
watery or something, I guess.

Y: Why does ice melt on pressure?

X: Water expands when it freezes, so the pressure tries to undo the expansion and melts it.

Y: Why does water expand on freezing?

X: Well, whatever reason I give you, you can just ask for the reason of the reason by adding a why and in this way it will just go on and on until all the answers end and only the question remains. You asked: ‘why does water expands on freezing?’ This is my response: ‘Why not? ‘

Y: Now, you have your answer to the question that you asked me.

The answer to the question 'why' can lead to deeper understanding of the mechanisms of nature if the 'why' question is asked properly but every answer can be converted to another 'why' question thus we can indefinitely question on with 'why' until we reach the wall of 'it is just is cause it is how it is'.....

Where?
Somewhere....call it whatever....we can just percieve, classify our perceptions and name the places we are and map it according to the names and other percieved data. Thats all you can do wherever you are. Whereever we are, we are somewhere....and whatever we can know is through comparison with other places or making up names and stuff by ourselves to represent those places....
 

Sinny91

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Enneagram theory is in direct opposition to the notion that our 'intents' are determined by our likes and dislikes etc, and so is MBTI to an extent.

Of course meditation and thought correction are useful, but the majority of the above just sounds like self help hogwash.

Welcome to the forum.
 
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