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Where will you be in 2045?

scorpiomover

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Non-sequitur: Most of them have never even had the choice.
Most of them aren't 16 either. When you see documentaries of people who've never had the choice, it's people who are raised with Western cultural structures, but with very poor implementation, such as refugee camps, and slums just outside cities. The people living in the bush, who are very far away from any city infrastructure, usually have access to city culture, but generally choose to spend very little time there.

You seem to think you're all-knowing. You should be able to access the data yourself.

The Amish didn't reject the Western cultural paradigm, they just arbitrarily decided to stop advancing their technology beyond a certain point.
While everyone else kept moving on? Arbitrarily? The Amish are one of a few dozen groups that were offshoots of the Anabaptists that date from the Protestant Reformation. They decided that the best way to deal with the problems of daily life, was to establish workable systems for their own communities, and stick to them.
 

Duxwing

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Most of them aren't 16 either.
Why do you keep playing the age card? :confused: Didn't you pay attention in logic class? The nature of the person making a point has no effect on the truth and validity of the point itself.

When you see documentaries of people who've never had the choice, it's people who are raised with Western cultural structures, but with very poor implementation, such as refugee camps, and slums just outside cities. The people living in the bush, who are very far away from any city infrastructure, usually have access to city culture, but generally choose to spend very little time there.
And documentaries are the sum total of reality. :facepalm: And you call me a know-it-all.

Returning to my rebuttal: poorly implemented cultural values from the west yield the same poor results as poorly implemented cultural values from anywhere else. Furthermore, those living in the bush do not necessarily even have the faintest idea of what the city is, and those on the outskirts may very well be taught to stay where they are, both directly and indirectly. Finally, cities in developing countries are nowhere near as safe or as clean as those in the developed world, so holding that those who prefer the African bush, for example, is not a complete argument: they very well may prefer the African bush to Mogadishu, Somalia.

You seem to think you're all-knowing. You should be able to access the data yourself.
If I knew everything, then why would I have asked you for data? You should be able to support your point yourself.

While everyone else kept moving on?
Strawman, red herring.

Arbitrarily?
Yes, as I'll demonstrate in my last point.

The Amish are one of a few dozen groups that were offshoots of the Anabaptists that date from the Protestant Reformation.
This checks out.

They decided that the best way to deal with the problems of daily life, was to establish workable systems for their own communities, and stick to them.
But this is factually incorrect. First, "The Amish" are a highly diverse group, with the avoidance of modern technology occurring primarily in The Old Order Amish, and within this group, one need only look to the classic belief that cameras steal the souls of those in their portraits to realize that their avoidance of modern technology is not the result of pragmatism, but religion.

The Amish treat modern culture in much the same way, with Hochmut (pride, arrogance, haughtiness) being a vice and Demut (humility) along with calmness, composure, and placidity being virtues. To achieve the latter ends, they focus on simple wear (hence the dark, plain coats, dresses, and hats) and simple lifestyles of farming, barn-raising, and family.

Overall, the Amish are a religious group with certain practices motivated by an inculcated desire to achieve eternal reward in the afterlife, not a group of pragmatist luddites, as you've asserted.

-Duxwing
 

Chad

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Why do you keep playing the age card? :confused: Didn't you pay attention in logic class? The nature of the person making a point has no effect on the truth and validity of the point itself.



And documentaries are the sum total of reality. :facepalm: And you call me a know-it-all.

Returning to my rebuttal: poorly implemented cultural values from the west yield the same poor results as poorly implemented cultural values from anywhere else. Furthermore, those living in the bush do not necessarily even have the faintest idea of what the city is, and those on the outskirts may very well be taught to stay where they are, both directly and indirectly. Finally, cities in developing countries are nowhere near as safe or as clean as those in the developed world, so holding that those who prefer the African bush, for example, is not a complete argument: they very well may prefer the African bush to Mogadishu, Somalia.



If I knew everything, then why would I have asked you for data? You should be able to support your point yourself.



Strawman, red herring.



Yes, as I'll demonstrate in my last point.



This checks out.



But this is factually incorrect. First, "The Amish" are a highly diverse group, with the avoidance of modern technology occurring primarily in The Old Order Amish, and within this group, one need only look to the classic belief that cameras steal the souls of those in their portraits to realize that their avoidance of modern technology is not the result of pragmatism, but religion.

The Amish treat modern culture in much the same way, with Hochmut (pride, arrogance, haughtiness) being a vice and Demut (humility) along with calmness, composure, and placidity being virtues. To achieve the latter ends, they focus on simple wear (hence the dark, plain coats, dresses, and hats) and simple lifestyles of farming, barn-raising, and family.

Overall, the Amish are a religious group with certain practices motivated by an inculcated desire to achieve eternal reward in the afterlife, not a group of pragmatist luddites, as you've asserted.

-Duxwing
Just to make a point having data to back up your argument in this day in age isn't really bring that much strength to your argument. Mostly because you can find scewed data for just about anything online. There is most likely more fraudulent information on the internet then actually factual information. Even the government plays with the figures to make them look one way or the other.

This is why I like to talk abstractly especially when discoursing and issue on an Online forum. You take thing too seriously some times. Yes, the issues between Israel and Palestine are dire but nothing we discuss on this forum is going to make a difference in that. I understand why you would want to have certifiable information if you were working for the UN trying to help resolve the issues but we are just discussing an issue on a forum. Here we are just expressing are opinions on the situation even if we don't agree it doesn't matter. I would hope that someone with the power to change these things would have something better to do with there free time then look for advice on a forum site.

Therefore argue your opinion based off your personal understanding of all the facts that you have gathered. It doesn't matter were you got these fact form there are more then likely not not accurate however they do help you understand at least the emotional impact of one side or the other. We are all here arguing on partial knowledge and individual biases. Once we realize this the conversation can be much more useful to helping others understand the arguments for opposing sides.

I am sure that on this forum no one has changed your mind. They may have introduced you to different information that you found interesting and through father research you realized your thoughts were imperfect. This is best one can hope for on an INTP forum. No, self respecting intellectual is going to change his mind based completely off a internet forum that would be Illogical.

Why do you wish to win an forum argument with a person you most will most likely never know? What do you wist to accomplish here? I am all for arguing it is fun and enjoyable to see what other people think however, I don't feel the need to be right or prove someone else wrong especially complete strangers.

Your life experiences are different and your understand of the world is different then mine. This is fascinated nor matter who is right or wrong. The fact that I can look at something and see blue and you can look at the same thing and see red is fascinating. I don't always disagree with you either and your age doesn't matter you logic is rather sound.
 

Duxwing

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Just to make a point having data to back up your argument in this day in age isn't really bring that much strength to your argument. Mostly because you can find scewed data for just about anything online. There is most likely more fraudulent information on the internet then actually factual information. Even the government plays with the figures to make them look one way or the other.
And we cannot eliminate this bias?

This is why I like to talk abstractly especially when discoursing and issue on an Online forum.
Being unable to find facts to support your position is no excuse for not having them and then passing your opinion off as if it were something carefully researched.

You take thing too seriously some times.
And I take other things not seriously enough at other times.

Yes, the issues between Israel and Palestine are dire but nothing we discuss on this forum is going to make a difference in that. I understand why you would want to have certifiable information if you were working for the UN trying to help resolve the issues but we are just discussing an issue on a forum. Here we are just expressing are opinions on the situation even if we don't agree it doesn't matter. I would hope that someone with the power to change these things would have something better to do with there free time then look for advice on a forum site.
Is knowing the truth of the matter and identifying flawed arguments not an end in itself? Moreover, you're dismissing the idea that one of us might, in the future, be inspired to work on these problems.

Therefore argue your opinion based off your personal understanding of all the facts that you have gathered. It doesn't matter were you got these fact form there are more then likely not not accurate however they do help you understand at least the emotional impact of one side or the other. We are all here arguing on partial knowledge and individual biases. Once we realize this the conversation can be much more useful to helping others understand the arguments for opposing sides.
If our knowledge is incomplete, then we shall complete it. If our lens is biased, then we shall clean it off: the people in Israel and Palestine are lobbing rockets at each other for a reason, and, if we do enough research and think hard enough, then we can know what that reason is.

I am sure that on this forum no one has changed your mind.
Hardly. I've had my mind changed about many things on this and other forums, and I find your allegation of pig-headedness quite insulting.

They may have introduced you to different information that you found interesting and through father research you realized your thoughts were imperfect. This is best one can hope for on an INTP forum. No, self respecting intellectual is going to change his mind based completely off a internet forum that would be Illogical.
Why must the opinions of those on an internet forum be wrong, especially if they concern matters of pure logic? Ironically, your argument is illogical in that it commits the ad hominem fallacy.

Why do you wish to win an forum argument with a person you most will most likely never know?
I don't wish to win, I wish, just as Socrates did, to arrive at the truth. Oftentimes my rebuttals consist entirely of asking questions and poking holes in others' logic.

What do you wist to accomplish here?
To clarify and understand.

I am all for arguing it is fun and enjoyable to see what other people think however, I don't feel the need to be right or prove someone else wrong especially complete strangers.
OK? Why should I care what your personal feelings are about this? :confused:

Your life experiences are different and your understand of the world is different then mine.
Almost invariably true.

This is fascinated nor matter who is right or wrong.
Indeed, even the minds of madmen can be fascinating.

The fact that I can look at something and see blue and you can look at the same thing and see red is fascinating.
Phenomenology, great stuff.

I don't always disagree with you either and your age doesn't matter you logic is rather sound.
Aww, thanks. *hug*

-Duxwing
 

scorpiomover

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Why do you keep playing the age card? :confused: Didn't you pay attention in logic class? The nature of the person making a point has no effect on the truth and validity of the point itself.
No. But many male teenage youths act more confidently than their arguments deserve, and much more confidently than those who are expert in the subject and agree with them, behave on the topic, even with the most solid of arguments that cannot be defeated. So when a young teenage male acts as if he is sure, and there really doesn't seem to any such basis in his views, then it is likely that he follows the behaviour of such people, for the same reasons they do.

And documentaries are the sum total of reality. :facepalm: And you call me a know-it-all.
I know they don't give the full picture. I don't rely on them to tell me what to think, but to be aware of what might be true, that I can research for myself.

Returning to my rebuttal: poorly implemented cultural values from the west yield the same poor results as poorly implemented cultural values from anywhere else.
Things have consequences. So different values, when implemented, also cause different effects, and so even when different values are poorly implemented, we see different consequences.

Furthermore, those living in the bush do not necessarily even have the faintest idea of what the city is,
We only know about them, because researchers have met them and talked to them. They know where we live! In cities!

and those on the outskirts may very well be taught to stay where they are, both directly and indirectly.
They may, and for good reason. The countries Westerners took over, usually had stable less-techology-dependent groups. Don't forget, that Africa, the Middle East, the Far East and India had millions living there for millennia. Evolution dictates that those that were unstable, would be going extinct, and those that were stable, would thrive.

It usually didn't go well. Slavery, unofficial slavery, mass rape, a collase of their civilisation into chaos and civil war, new diseases which decimated whole villages, our rape of their natural resources.

After all that, what would you do in their place?

Finally, cities in developing countries are nowhere near as safe or as clean as those in the developed world,
Sanitation is usually a problem. But I've been to distant places. They normally have far less issues with crime, physical assault, rape, and robbery than London. Their homes and streets are often much cleaner than ours.

However, it is true, that for a tourist, it's safer in their own country. Westerners normally have access to better infrastructure, and they've grown up with it, and so know how to get more out of it, than the places they are unfamiliar with. But I doubt that it's about countries. If you go to a major tourist destination like Agadir, everything's set up for you. If you get stuck in the Appalachians in mid-winter, Search & Rescue will probably have to come get you, because most Westerners don't have a clue how to survive there, not even though for Americans, it's their own country. It's about communities, such as town, villages, and even cities, that are set up with infrastructure that is very similar to the ones that you are used to in the places you lived in.

If the infrastructure matches enough, you know where to get a drink, that is safe to drink, and tasty, for a reasonable price, because it will probably be in the equivalent places as in your home town. The same for everything else. If it doesn't match, then you're in real problems. A guy straight out the jungle, who doesn't speak English, who is dropped into a small town in America, can't ask for a drink. He doesn't know how. Even if someone gives him a drink, the water could be dodgy, and he doesn't know how Americans know what water is safe to drink. So he's mistrustful of everything. He's got to be.

they very well may prefer the African bush to Mogadishu, Somalia.
I would too. Those are cities that have clearly been influenced by Western culture. They have guns there. Where did they get guns from? What has it brought?

If I knew everything, then why would I have asked you for data?
Many people IRL an online use such requests as an argument for dismissing things they know were true, but weakened their position. It seemed to me, that you seem to be au fait with the internet, and more than intelligent enough to look it up for yourself. By this time, I had thought that you'd have checked it for yourself, to see if your supposition was right.

If I relied on other people for sources, then other people could select the sources that support their case, and simply choose to not mention any sources that might prove them wrong, and then I could be manipulated to believe anything. So I prefer to check things out for myself. I had thought this was an INTP thing. I guess not.

You should be able to support your point yourself.
Scorpiomover said:
Japanese get a taste for Western food and fall victim to obesity and early death - Telegraph
The Okinawan islands, in Japan's extreme southwest, have more than two and a half times the national average of people over 100 years old and an extraordinary number of people who enjoy excellent health well into their eighties.

But the next generation is the fattest in Japan and prone to a range of obesity-related illnesses that could kill them in middle age.

Experts blame the gusto with which Okinawa took to fast food when the island was administered by the US, from the war until 1972. It got the first fast-food outlet in Japan — in 1963, seven years before Tokyo — and still has more fast-food outlets per head than anywhere else in the country.
Okinawa Island - The Healthiest Place on Earth | Oddity Central - Collecting Oddities
I used to think that there were only a handful of people over the age of 100 in the world. How wrong was I! The Japanese island of Okinawa alone has about 457 of them. It is considered to be the healthiest place in the world, where the average life expectancy of an Okinawan woman is 86, and man’s is 78. Not only do they live long lives, they live very healthy and happy ones too. A fine example is 96-year-old martial artist Seikichi Uehara, who, at his age, defeated a thirty-something ex-boxing champion. And also Nabi Kinjo, the 105-year-old woman who hunted down a poisonous snake and killed it with a fly swatter.
Unfortunately, the secrets accumulated by the elderly aren’t being imbibed with much enthusiasm by the present generation Okinawans. As in many other countries, Western fast food joints have invaded the island, which the youth prefer over traditional foods. One youngster chomping down on a burger says: “I like thick, greasy food.” “Goya is bitter,” says another, “so I don’t like it much.” The degradation of the healthy eating habits has taken its toll on the island, considerably reducing life expectancy. The rates of obesity and lung cancer are higher in Okinawa than compared to anywhere else in Japan. It appears that when the western world is awakening to the benefits of living life like the Okinawans, their very own youth are leaving it behind. It’s sad really, but the truth is the healthy people of Okinawa are nothing but living relics whose secrets of a truly healthy life will be lost in just a few years time…
The Okinawa Shock: As life expectancy falls, world watches with bated breath
Strawman, red herring.
They were already moving with everyone else. They had the momentum to keep moving. So they should have continued with everyone else, unless there was an evolutionary pressure to keep them in that point.

But this is factually incorrect. First, "The Amish" are a highly diverse group, with the avoidance of modern technology occurring primarily in The Old Order Amish, and within this group,
That's why I used the words "systemS for their communitieS", plural in both counts. I knew they were diverse and that their ludditism was heterogeneous. So I took that into account, in my post.

one need only look to the classic belief that cameras steal the souls of those in their portraits to realize that their avoidance of modern technology is not the result of pragmatism, but religion.
The old wives tale that one should put mouldly bread on a wound, sounds far more incredulous. That a piece of rotten food, that would make you sick to eat, can heal, by being placed on the site of infection? It sounds like one is trying to kill the person.

That is, until one finds out that the important ingredient of an antibiotic is mould.

Then one finds out that mould has been used for millennia, while us with our modern science only discovered their benefits about 100 years ago by accident. We thought they were idiots. Only they weren't that stupid, not like us. We knew they valued mould as a medical treatment. We could have tried to test mould. We didn't. How many could have been saved from certain death, if we had only been willing to accept that these people might actually have good reason for what they believe? As many as if we'd had antibiotics since the beginning of science. That's your Technological Utopia, right there.

Actually, a lot of cultures have concerns of stealing the self. Some believe that a picture steals something of the essence. It does. TV decimated Vaudeville. When you have the recording, you no longer need the original. When you have no pictures, you have to go see the people, to recall their image. When you have a picture, you don't. But they also know and do things that you don't get in a picture. So you rely on assumptions about info that only the person could provide, and you get things wrong. A classic theme of films of assassinations, is that the assassin makes himself up to look like someone else, gets passed in on that basis, while the police discover the real guy somewhere else.

The Japanese Samurai believed that using someone else's sword. Professional snooker players have their own cues, even though cues are already there to be used. Each instrument has its own imperfections. Getting to know those imperfections, allows one to account for them, which results in an optimal skill level. Even using a better weapon cannot always improve on this, because a better weapon still has imperfections, and if it's not your weapon, you don't know it. In the same way, the sword moulds to the user's hand over time, just like Sheldon's seat moulds to the shape of his bottom. Someone else using it, disturbs this flow towards a perfect symbiosis between handler and weapon. It's not noticeable to amateurs. But to those who practice for several hours a day, a different weapon moves ridiculously clumsily compared to your favourite, and even when someone else touches it, you can feel that it's lost a bit of that sensitivity.

Western culture also has concerns of stealing the self, i.e. stealing parts of one's mind, one's ideas. We call that "intellectual property theft". We protect it with patents.

The Amish treat modern culture in much the same way, with Hochmut (pride, arrogance, haughtiness) being a vice and Demut (humility) along with calmness, composure, and placidity being virtues. To achieve the latter ends, they focus on simple wear (hence the dark, plain coats, dresses, and hats) and simple lifestyles of farming, barn-raising, and family.
Pride comes before a fall. Arrogance is the vice of assuming you know it all. Humility is the value of self-doubt. It requires one to not assume that one knows things one doesn't. It's the very foundation of Ti and what makes INTPs so brilliant at so many things.

Overall, the Amish are a religious group with certain practices motivated by an inculcated desire to achieve eternal reward in the afterlife, not a group of pragmatist luddites, as you've asserted.
When I looked at the overview of how religions are portrayed in the West, they seemed irrational. But when I went into the details of the beliefs and practices of each religious group, and analysed them, it was clear to me that they were extremely consistent with very pragmatic attitudes. That clear consistency of behaviour, required me to change my views on them. So I did.
 

7even

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It's quite easy to be in the modern world and as an armchair philosopher opine that our Noble Savage ancestors had it better. I guarantee they would change places with you in a second.
Why so sure? Indigenous tribes existing today; who you may think of as 'culturally developed and more intelligent Noble Savages' are undoubtedly not fans of the modern world, and, I say this with certainty, the last thing they would want to do is integrate.
 

Kuu

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Sounds nice, can I come visit? :)
Only if you bring some T-rex.

Finally, cities in developing countries are nowhere near as safe or as clean as those in the developed world
I must ask, have you ever been in a "developing" country?

Cities in the so-called "developed" world are quite dirty and some even have some extremely high violent crime rates... Ever been robbed in Barcelona? Walked in Parisian non-tourist areas at night, or the metro during the day? Been to the UK? Noticed that the US has the largest prison population in the world, and largest incarceration rate?
 

Duxwing

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I must ask, have you ever been in a "developing" country?
No, but I know those who've grown up there. For example, the denizens of Nairobi refer to their city as "Nairobbery" in honor of its lurid crime rate. For example, those who drive into the city with their arm hanging out the window of their car are liable to have their exposed extremity chopped off by a machete-wielding robber hiding in the bushes (note that the robber doesn't wait for your car to stop, he just jumps out and swings) looking for Rolex watches to sell. And once in the city, one must take a careful look around before producing one's wallet to pay for something lest a pickpocket snatch it out of one's hand.

Cities in the so-called "developed" world are quite dirty and some even have some extremely high violent crime rates... Ever been robbed in Barcelona? Walked in Parisian non-tourist areas at night, or the metro during the day? Been to the UK?
That is rounding error compared to what I've just described: Do you need to worry about having your arm chopped off as you arrive in Amsterdam? Do you need to check behind you to see if someone is about to steal your money before you buy your beer from a bar in Britain? Or perhaps considered how Hamburg, unlike Syria, is not in the middle of a bloody revolution (haha, British puns :D)? Cities in the developed world may have crime, but let us not forget that they are far, far safer than those in the developing world.

Noticed that the US has the largest prison population in the world, and largest incarceration rate?
So you want us to let the criminals out again? It doesn't seem to have worked for you guys.

-Duxwing
 

7even

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What actually has happened is a third view that few people take, which is that things don't just get better, they get exponentially better. Don't just look to Kurzweil for proof of this, Steven Pinker recently wrote a book about the decline of violence over the last 2000 years. I have many references showing the enormous increase in global wealth over the last 2000 years also. On resources the fact is that historically we've never run out and I believe never will. People are too good at finding new sources of essential resources, when there is an incentive. Do a search for the 'nitrogen crisis' for a history lesson.
BUT progress lead to violence even increasing in the first place! Wealth? At what cost?

I stand by this:

Progress only leads to problems. Progress initially created an unimaginable diverse range of consequences in the unknown future, and so, we have only improved on the problems we've created ourselves by even starting to progress. Counter-productive and extremely comical.
Supported by this:

Well, you'd find that before the invention of farming, we never actually required any dental care. It is only when we incorporated certain food into our diets (post-agriculture) that tooth decay started to emerge. In addition, as agriculture allowed bigger communities to settle, an increase in death occurred due to cattle, producing suitable conditions for the spread of disease. Also, of-course, an increase in population growth due to settlement (thus communities, civilizations, kingdoms etc.) another basis of various problems (including violence).
 

Duxwing

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BUT progress lead to violence even increasing in the first place! Wealth? At what cost?

I stand by this:



Supported by this:
Before agriculture, people had no food. I'll take tooth decay over starving any day. Moreover, although progress creates new problems, the sum of the new problems is never greater than that of the old problem-- otherwise, we'd go back to the old way. And as we keep pushing onward, solutions become perfected. Take the lever, for example. Although we had to invent it and perfect it, we have it now and can implement it anywhere, anytime, and if using it is too much trouble, then we don't use it. Progress hurts in the short term, but it's beautiful in the long term, so suck it up for now and enjoy the finished product when it comes.

-Duxwing
 

7even

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Before agriculture, people had no food. I'll take tooth decay over starving any day. Moreover, although progress creates new problems, the sum of the new problems is never greater than that of the old problem-- otherwise, we'd go back to the old way. And as we keep pushing onward, solutions become perfected. Take the lever, for example. Although we had to invent it and perfect it, we have it now and can implement it anywhere, anytime, and if using it is too much trouble, then we don't use it. Progress hurts in the short term, but it's beautiful in the long term, so suck it up for now and enjoy the finished product when it comes.

-Duxwing
Not true. If there was no food before agriculture, we simply wouldn't have survived those hundreds of years we managed without agricultural progress. Before agriculture, there was plenty of food, abundant in nature, especially considering the low numbers of human beings alive. Before you think negatively of hunting, think of war, and the fact that we still hunt. No, we can't go back to the old ways because we have settled, our environment have changed, our values, systems, and cultures instilled, and our communities in the billions.

Progress will never lead to a 'better' life, unless your idea of a better life is an increase materials and luxury. An actual 'better' life can only occur from within humanity as a whole. This mentality of 'future expectations' is self-destructive; every tyrannic bastard promises for a 'better' future. BULLSHIT. Apologies.
 

Architect

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BUT progress lead to violence even increasing in the first place!
No it doesn't.

Wealth? At what cost?
The cost of human labor

I stand by this:

Progress only leads to problems. Progress initially created an unimaginable diverse range of consequences in the unknown future, and so, we have only improved on the problems we've created ourselves by even starting to progress. Counter-productive and extremely comical.
The idealized view of man and nature. "The Noble Savage" was the popular view in the 1800's. All wrong, I really would like to have a camp where you folks can experience cave man life, it could double as a weight loss camp because you'd find little to eat ("Fat Farm") and I'd make a lot of money.

It's very easy to be an armchair philosopher, surrounded by our technology and comfortable life and opine on how terrible technology is. Early Man had to worry about extinction; we have to worry about what to do with our newfound time because we're not scrabbling around for a bite. I don't see how you could believe otherwise.

To be fair I had similar ideas when I was young.
 

Chad

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And we cannot eliminate this bias?



Being unable to find facts to support your position is no excuse for not having them and then passing your opinion off as if it were something carefully researched.



And I take other things not seriously enough at other times.



Is knowing the truth of the matter and identifying flawed arguments not an end in itself? Moreover, you're dismissing the idea that one of us might, in the future, be inspired to work on these problems.



If our knowledge is incomplete, then we shall complete it. If our lens is biased, then we shall clean it off: the people in Israel and Palestine are lobbing rockets at each other for a reason, and, if we do enough research and think hard enough, then we can know what that reason is.



Hardly. I've had my mind changed about many things on this and other forums, and I find your allegation of pig-headedness quite insulting.



Why must the opinions of those on an internet forum be wrong, especially if they concern matters of pure logic? Ironically, your argument is illogical in that it commits the ad hominem fallacy.



I don't wish to win, I wish, just as Socrates did, to arrive at the truth. Oftentimes my rebuttals consist entirely of asking questions and poking holes in others' logic.



To clarify and understand.



OK? Why should I care what your personal feelings are about this? :confused:



Almost invariably true.



Indeed, even the minds of madmen can be fascinating.



Phenomenology, great stuff.



Aww, thanks. *hug*

-Duxwing
Sorry for posting here. I was thinking I was on a different thread.

Carry on.
 

scorpiomover

The little professor
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No, but I know those who've grown up there. For example, the denizens of Nairobi refer to their city as "Nairobbery" in honor of its lurid crime rate. For example, those who drive into the city with their arm hanging out the window of their car are liable to have their exposed extremity chopped off by a machete-wielding robber hiding in the bushes (note that the robber doesn't wait for your car to stop, he just jumps out and swings) looking for Rolex watches to sell.
Fuck. That sounds horrible. It's almost as bad as the reputation that Kilburn used to have. Londoners used to say that if you drive through Kilburn, you keep your windows completely closed, because people there have a habit of shoving a coat-hanger in an open car window as they drive past, and the coat-hanger rips your face off.

And once in the city, one must take a careful look around before producing one's wallet to pay for something lest a pickpocket snatch it out of one's hand.
Oh, that doesn't sound so bad. In London, the police used to make announcements that you have to watch your wallet in your pocket as well, because pickpockets will even snatch it out of your pocket as you walk in the street. You have to be especially careful in crowds. Also, you have to be incredibly careful when you're at an ATM. Plenty of students I know got robbed there.

From what you've posted, Nairobbery doesn't sound half as bad as London.

That is rounding error compared to what I've just described: Do you need to worry about having your arm chopped off as you arrive in Amsterdam?

Do you need to check behind you to see if someone is about to steal your money before you buy your beer from a bar in Britain?
Yes. But that's the least of it. You also have to watch out in case they pick up a pint glass, and smash it against your head as well. Seen that happen in pubs here. You also have to watch out for people just starting fights with you without warning, in pubs, and in football grounds. Seen that happen two. Often with knives.

Or perhaps considered how Hamburg, unlike Syria, is not in the middle of a bloody revolution (haha, British puns :D)?
For how many years was the revolution in Syria going on, exactly? Hmmm? For how many years was it unsafe to live in Hamburg, like between 1914 and 1918, and 1933 to 1945?

Cities in the developed world may have crime, but let us not forget that they are far, far safer than those in the developing world.
Plenty of ex-pats who live in less developed countries. They feel much safer there.

Before agriculture, people had no food. I'll take tooth decay over starving any day.
According to Neil Oliver and the BBC, archaeologists have foun that in the mesolithic, which was before agriculture, humans had good teeth, good health, food, and on average, lived to the age of 60, which was much more than the British in the Tudor Age, after the Scientific Revolution, and over twice the average longevity of the French in Paris in the Industrial Revolution.

I'll take tooth decay over starving any day.
Tooth decay often doesn't lead to death. Starving always does.

Moreover, although progress creates new problems, the sum of the new problems is never greater than that of the old problem-- otherwise, we'd go back to the old way.
It's not that easy to turn back time. Too many people would rather move on.

And as we keep pushing onward, solutions become perfected.
As long as there is evolutionary pressure to perfect the solution, then solutions become perfected. Once there is no evolutionary pressure to perfect the solution, or even evolutionary pressures to not perfect it, such as with modern computers and modern gadgets, then solutions stay un-perfected.

Take the lever, for example. Although we had to invent it and perfect it, we have it now and can implement it anywhere, anytime, and if using it is too much trouble, then we don't use it.
A perfect example. We know plenty about the lever. It's many uses are covered in mechanics. In the 30s, the 50s, and before, most workers would have known how to use them, and used them often. Today, you hardly ever see anyone using a lever and pulley system to move something. They pay someone else to move it with a complicated gadget, and if they cannot afford their rates, they just give up. They could use a lever to move it, quite easily. But they don't.

Progress hurts in the short term, but it's beautiful in the long term, so suck it up for now and enjoy the finished product when it comes.
Progress cannot happen unless someone else pays for it. People usually don't pay money in the short term, unless it will give them more money back in the short term. People do so regularly and consistently, even though those things are bound to cause more problems in the long term. Usually, even if they could pay a little more to sort out the long-term problems in advance, they won't, because that will lessen their profits.

So it would be more accurate to say the following:

Progress helps in the short term. But it's usually pretty awful in the long term. So enjoy it for now and then suck it up when the consequences come, just like most people.
 

Water Witch

Redshirt
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In my rocking chair watching time flow before my eyes.
 

7even

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BUT progress lead to violence even increasing in the first place!
No it doesn't.
Can you justify this? - In my opinion, all the historical and present evidence says otherwise.


The idealized view of man and nature. "The Noble Savage" was the popular view in the 1800's. All wrong, I really would like to have a camp where you folks can experience cave man life, it could double as a weight loss camp because you'd find little to eat ("Fat Farm") and I'd make a lot of money.
Yeah, today, given the results of progress (population boost, food scarcity, environmental degradation, privatization etc.) that would be the case. Famine is much more relevant today than it was prior to the Neolithic.
Two completely different environments.

It's very easy to be an armchair philosopher, surrounded by our technology and comfortable life and opine on how terrible technology is. Early Man had to worry about extinction; we have to worry about what to do with our newfound time because we're not scrabbling around for a bite. I don't see how you could believe otherwise.
Extinction didn't seem to be much of a problem as it is today. Does modern man not worry about extinction today? One only has to take a look at current mortality rates... Food crisis, nuclear weapons, war & genocide, climate change, disease etc.? I guess it isn't so evident because we stand 7 billion+ 'strong'. Not even taking into consideration the current rate of extinction of other organisms..

Desire is the Devil.

Simplicity as opposed to complexity..
 

Mr Write

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Okay. Admittedly, I only just now read the book (Singularity is Near). That was more fun than I expected; a good INTP read for sure. I'll probably read it again sometime to catch everything I missed the first time. I'm glad I did read it, if only because there were a few things I'd misunderstood from my limited information.

Naturally, I'm inclined to be a little skeptical; but I (tentatively!) trust your judgement above my own for the moment.
 

Architect

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Okay. Admittedly, I only just now read the book (Singularity is Near). That was more fun than I expected; a good INTP read for sure. I'll probably read it again sometime to catch everything I missed the first time. I'm glad I did read it, if only because there were a few things I'd misunderstood from my limited information.

Naturally, I'm inclined to be a little skeptical; but I (tentatively!) trust your judgement above my own for the moment.
Thanks for the follow up. It IS a good book and does take a few reads. On the predictions I was skeptical also, but gave myself a few years to watch and wait. It took me about three years maybe before I started to see the patterns.
 

Valentas

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My grandfather's mother died when she was 110 :D
My grandfather climbs over the fence better then me and he keeps bees.

Yet they all ate crap and still does so. What is life expectancy for me, who decided to not eat crap and exercise? :D I hope to die on my 100th birthday just for fun. Nor from disease though. From running a marathon :d
 

Valentas

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Also, talking about immortality, there was an experiment in early 20th century. I spotted this mention in one naturalist's book and want to share this.

http://www.getawayspas.com/cleanliness-is-next-to-immortality-by-Sayward-Ayre.html

I think Architect approach to diet will prove right. It cures disease, remove toxins and improve longevity. Though, as far as I know from my biochemistry studies, this experiment, however amazing, is not true in general because one of the pillars in biology is that each cell has a limited amount of replications possible.

Now, that you've mentioned Singularity I can see the clue where the future business may be...hehe :D
 

Architect

Professional INTP
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Also, talking about immortality, there was an experiment in early 20th century. I spotted this mention in one naturalist's book and want to share this.

http://www.getawayspas.com/cleanliness-is-next-to-immortality-by-Sayward-Ayre.html

I think Architect approach to diet will prove right. It cures disease, remove toxins and improve longevity. Though, as far as I know from my biochemistry studies, this experiment, however amazing, is not true in general because one of the pillars in biology is that each cell has a limited amount of replications possible.
Are you talking about telomeres? There is some early research showing that diet possibly has an effect on that too. Sorry I don't have a link.

Aging is actually has a number causes, your hormones turning off for one. Diet and periodic fasting appears to have an effect on several aspects. One is prevention of western diseases such as heart disease and cancer. Two it has an effect on gene expression, and there are other effects.
 

Valentas

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By the way, I just wanted to tell you all: this place is so great, I get to read so many awesome ideas. No one, EVER, around me talked about such things. It's like being immersed into some new world, all you want is to sniff around, you get tons of questions and it also bumps into my psyche, trying to consider the world view deeper and slowly altering my perceptions.

I need to be careful to not become immersed there completely or the world around me will loose it's importance ;D

Another analogy is NEO from the Matrix. He did not want to believe what he sees or hears, it is similar to me. I try to take one insight at a time, such as changing my diet, reading up on career advice. I just came back from my other house near the lake...sat there and pondered on some of your ideas. Some made sense, some required pushing them to the future due to lack of experience and lack of data to decide. :}
 

Architect

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Glad I can help.

This is a good watering hole ...
 

C.Hecker88

Lily of the Valley
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@Thread title:

Dead, if all goes according to plan.
 

Rainer

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I'll be 57, and living in a secular monastery built on my land in an isolated corner of eastern North America, with the forest I planted 20-30 years prior of fruit and nut bearing trees and shrubs growing tall around us. We secular monks will spend time working together to take care of the food forest, planting, harvesting, and caring for livestock. While we work, we can be discussing and debating subjects of interest. Or we can sing as the musicians play their instruments to keep us motivated. The monastery would accept both men and women, and not require celibacy--the whole point would be simple living, respect of nature, discussion and debate of ideas, and fun. It'll have internet. And a separate isolated cabin for each of us, so we can get some space from each other too.
 
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