What's the strongest argument for atheism?

[Old Things]

It's a message of despair IMO. There is no such thing as hope in Nihilism.

I believe Nietzsche was right in that men will outgrow their limitations one day, not sure when. In that sense he was extremely optimistic.

In sense of seeking power and will I think he was bit too optimistic, as will to power, alone does not imply virtue.

Yeah. You will also notice that Nietzsche was a hard atheist. None of this weak, "lack a belief" crap. But as you say, his philosophy has other problems such as that power only matters in the moment or at most for the extent of human history but matters nothing after that.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Yeah. You will also notice that Nietzsche was a hard atheist. None of this weak, "lack a belief" crap. But as you say, his philosophy has other problems such as that power only matters in the moment or at most for the extent of human history but matters nothing after that.

Well I agree with Nietzsche this world is for the living, it does not concern me what happens afterwards.

 

[Old Things]

Yeah. You will also notice that Nietzsche was a hard atheist. None of this weak, "lack a belief" crap. But as you say, his philosophy has other problems such as that power only matters in the moment or at most for the extent of human history but matters nothing after that.

Well I agree with Nietzsche this world is for the living, it does not concern me what happens afterwards.

What if there is life after death? Wouldn't you rather experience joy in the afterlife rather than anguish?

 

[Black Rose]

Not sure how you control where you go when you die.

I was told by my mother to just believe.

But belief is an emotional thing not a rational thing.

So depression may give me problems in this area.

Rationally you can separate knowledge from emotions.

And so to my knowledge, I think doing bad things is bad.

 

[Old Things]

Not sure how you control where you go when you die.

I was told by my mother to just believe.

But belief is an emotional thing not a rational thing.

So depression may give me problems in this area.

Rationally you can separate knowledge from emotions.

And so to my knowledge, I think doing bad things is bad.

It is a spiritual awareness and you will know because your life has been changed.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

A spiritual nihilist sounds like a cool person to hang out with. Like, are you a sociopath or a compassionate empath? Idk, lets find out.

Somehow we got on the topic of Nihilism, which is fine. But IDK who you are addressing here. Are you addressing me and asking me if I am a sociopath or a compassionate person? I am higher in compassion, but I am also assertive.

No one in particular.

Nihilism is interesting as a lens of analysis.

It is almost a inquisition of logic on human matters. Which you have to justify logically, which you can't, so it's hard to defend nihilism from criticisms regarding utility.

Sure, I can say that your nuerology has you in an emotional state, but that doesn't mean that the emotional state wasn't caused by something someone did.

If you don't believe in causation, then you're more than just a nihilist you're an idiot anti-realist, in which case I have no interest in any conversation with you besides science-fiction.

 

[Old Things]

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I am aware of all that. But you said yourself most nihilists are atheists. Why?

ok, you skipped the part where it points out that MOST atheists are NOT nihilists


and in-fact, it is almost impossible to be a true nihilist (you'd basically be catatonic)


the most despondent people (who call themselves nihilists) are those who LOSE FAITH in god(s)


those people are the most despondent because they've relied heavily on FAITH


and when they lose that FAITH


it takes a while to rebuild a coherent worldview

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

power only matters in the moment or at most for the extent of human history but matters nothing after that

i'm not sure this statement has any obvious "problem"

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

There are no "good" arguments for atheism. There is like one maybe two POSITIVE arguments for atheism (evolution is not one of them). Everything besides that is just saying, "Nuh uh!"

 

[ZenRaiden]

What if there is life after death?

I do believe in life after death or something, but I don't care.
Like why care about something like that, whats the point?
Its after you are dead? Why even waste time with that idea?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

What if there is life after death?

I do believe in life after death or something, but I don't care.
Like why care about something like that, whats the point?
Its after you are dead? Why even waste time with that idea?

yeah, especially since "eternal death" is what the bible promises (NOT "eternal torture") and regular normal average death is pretty much what an atheist expects anyway

 

[Old Things]

ok, you skipped the part where it points out that MOST atheists are NOT nihilists

I did not skip anything. I explained the phenomenon known as atheism.

and in-fact, it is almost impossible to be a true nihilist (you'd basically be catatonic)

While I somewhat agree, Nihilism is a philosophical belief, not necessarily rooted in emotion. It just has emotional effects that are caused by what you are telling yourself about things.

the most despondent people (who call themselves nihilists) are those who LOSE FAITH in god(s)

I am going to need a source for this...

it takes a while to rebuild a coherent worldview

Atheism is not a coherent worldview. It does not match reality and ultimately makes people unhappy. If I had a nickel for every time I had a militant atheist call me names on X I would be able to at least buy a two-liter of soda.

I think what this video describes is just simply what people are like. People often look to self-healing and the outer path. It is not uncommon even though the video makes it seem like it is. Also, it is all about what you tell yourself. It has very little to do with your circumstances. Your circumstances can be poor but you can still be happy. With all the conveniences we have today, you would think people would be very happy. But we are probably one of the most mentally unhappy societies to ever exist.

 

[Old Things]

As a response to what we are talking about here, I wrote this poem some time ago.

"Mercy"

I sit and think;
Reflect on the world.
A wonderful world
Filled with terror.

But it is all Your world.
The world You created.
The one I live in.

What do I receive?
Everything I need.

And it says you are light.
The bright light of the world.
On Calvery Hill.

I exist and here.
In, not of the world.
To share Your light here.
Until you judge.

You show me nothing but mercy.
You give me what I do not deserve.
Hallelujah for your mercy!
And let all creation rejoice!

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

ok, i just watched this

great fun actually

 

[ZenRaiden]

Atheism is not a world view.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Atheism is not a world view.

also

ATHEISM is not MATERIALISM

also

ATHEISM is not SCIENTISM

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

But we are probably one of the most mentally unhappy societies to ever exist.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Atheism is not a coherent worldview.

please explain exactly what contradictions are integral to ATHEISM

 

[Old Things]

Atheism is not a coherent worldview.

please explain exactly what contradictions are integral to ATHEISM

Why don't you go over my posts and try and figure it out? It's all there in this thread.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Why don't you go over my posts and try and figure it out? It's all there in this thread.

why dodge the question ?

 

[Old Things]

Why don't you go over my posts and try and figure it out? It's all there in this thread.

why dodge the question ?

I'm not. Why should I have to repeat myself?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I'm not. Why should I have to repeat myself?

because you have failed to make your point

i'm asking if you can be more specific

 

[Black Rose]

atheism = no life after death

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

atheism = no life after death

not necessarily

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Why don't you go over my posts and try and figure it out? It's all there in this thread.

my guess is going to be


something like


"an atheist can't be happy or have a sense of purpose because all atheists are nihilists"


which is demonstrably false

 

[ZenRaiden]

atheism = no life after death

atheist = without god , you can actually be atheist believe in after life, just that it would not be God.
A means without or NOT theism means having a God.

You can believe all kinds of things while atheist. You can be atheist Christian for instance.
You can be atheist voodoo priest etc.

 

[Black Rose]

I could say that for me I experienced miracles happen I attribute to God.

I am not sure you can have miracles without some divine force behind them.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

A means without or NOT theism means having a God.

i'd take it a step further and say "not a THEISTIC god"

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I am not sure you can have miracles without some divine force behind them.

have you heard of solipsism ?

 

[Black Rose]

I am not sure you can have miracles without some divine force behind them.

have you heard of solipsism ?

yes,

but I believe that other people exist separate from myself

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

but I believe that other people exist separate from myself

two fundamentally dissimilar substances cannot interact

so

exactly how separate is some matter of degree


but never 100%

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I am not sure you can have miracles without some divine force behind them.

 

[Black Rose]

@LOGICZOMBIE

the concept of evolution had nothing to do with what I experienced

 

[Black Rose]

but I believe that other people exist separate from myself

two fundamentally dissimilar substances cannot interact

so

exactly how separate is some matter of degree


but never 100%

you ate something within the past week I assume

the specific experience of that taste never happened to me

consciousness can be separated in a huge way

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

the concept of evolution had nothing to do with what I experienced

the same principle applies

incredibly unlikely coincidences happen all the time

some of these we notice

and attribute meaningfulness to them

if John Nash

can fail to distinguish imaginary people from real people

it's not much of a stretch to see

that your mind orchestrates your reality

in the same way it orchestrates your dreams

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

consciousness can be separated in a huge way

two computer programs can simultaneously be running on the same computer without any awareness of each other

 

[ZenRaiden]

I could say that for me I experienced miracles happen I attribute to God.

I am not sure you can have miracles without some divine force behind them.

I get what you mean. There must be intent and some nice guy behind the act. I can see why that makes sense. Have you heard of Q from ST TNG?

i'd take it a step further and say "not a THEISTIC god"

OK, perhaps that is the original meaning?
Generally I grew up thinking as former atheist that atheist meant people were more rational and simply did not believe due to rationality.
I saw my self as more rational.

But then I met people who were very bright, and probs more rational than me.
But they believed in Theist God and in many ways they believed the very things I thought to be irrational.

Then I realized lots of atheist believe in horoscopes, or in ghosts, or in magic, or energy vampires etc. and I considered those things retarded.

Then I realized that in and of it self I have no valid proof or evidence these things are categorically wrong other than rational or logic.
Then it hit me that these beliefs stem from some other place than brains.

What it also made me realize that belief systems are very much complicated, and not as formal as people like to think they are.

Ergo you can have highly rational people incredible intellect who believe things like racoons talked to them.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Have you heard of Q from ST TNG

good god

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Then I realized lots of atheist believe in horoscopes, or in ghosts, or in magic, or energy vampires etc. and I considered those things retarded.

bingo

 

[Black Rose]

I get what you mean. There must be intent and some nice guy behind the act. I can see why that makes sense. Have you heard of Q from ST TNG?

It may be better than being called a schizophrenic.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Ergo you can have highly rational people incredible intellect who believe things like racoons talked to them.

private experiential gnosis is unfalsifiable

 

[ZenRaiden]

It may be better than being called a schizophrenic.

Just FYI I did not call whatever you believe wrong, or schiz, I meant merely the concept.
The implication being x must have some sort of agent.
Overascribing agency is often linked to disease of mental health, but given psychiatrist still have not delineated how its possible to believe in x religion and not be schizophrenic and believe in x" and be schizophrenic I think we are largely ignorant of our minds functioning on this topic AKA lazy thinking.

 

[ZenRaiden]

private experiential gnosis is unfalsifiable

That might change.
For now its clear I can believe in whatever, I prefer proofs or evidence.

When I claim x I make sure to claim things on level of belief or fact.

To me fact is anything that can observe in some way, even if it happened outside of my experience provided I at least "could" observe it, like a volcano exploding is fact, even if it happened 1000 miles away.

Then there is belief, where I believe strongly something or less.
Usually what people call facts, are strong beliefs in my book.

SO there is spectrum to beliefs structures.
I think a really strong belief is something you are willing wage your skin on.

 

[Black Rose]

Just FYI I did not call whatever you believe wrong, or schiz, I meant merely the concept.

You did not,

I was referring to this post:

the concept of evolution had nothing to do with what I experienced

the same principle applies

incredibly unlikely coincidences happen all the time

some of these we notice

and attribute meaningfulness to them

if John Nash

can fail to distinguish imaginary people from real people

it's not much of a stretch to see

that your mind orchestrates your reality

in the same way it orchestrates your dreams

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

but given psychiatrist still have not delineated how its possible to believe in x religion and not be schizophrenic and believe in x" and be schizophrenic I think we are largely ignorant of our minds functioning on this topic AKA lazy thinking.

bingo

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I was referring to this post:

the human mind orchestrates reality

we all see things from time to time that we can't really explain

if we're really paying attention

that is not an accusation

it's an undeniable fact

 

[Black Rose]

The difference between Autism and Schizophrenia is sometimes blurry.

it may contradict that I am both an autist and a schizo

but then we may need more research on the brain?

no one who is qualified has ever given me a proper brain scan

certainly, experts exist, but where would the line be drawn?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Then there is belief, where I believe strongly something or less.
Usually what people call facts, are strong beliefs in my book.