What's the strongest argument for atheism?

[birdsnestfern]

I've had at least three experiences where Angels helped me. And I'm not religious and didn't have religious upbringing.
First was when sister and I were traveling with Mom and her boyfriend across country to deliver a mountain lion to Marine Land in Florida.
We stopped in a fast flowing Colorado river to cool off and it swept us out and carried us furiously to a whirlpool. Sister was about to be sucked in, and I looked up towards edge of bank and saw a hovering angel which told me to lay flat on surface and paddle hard. I told that to sister and helped pulled her out and we both escaped being sucked down.

Next was at a stoplight where I could not lift my foot to press on gas pedal. Had I pressed the gas, wouldve been side swiped by a car that ran the light.

Next was after I developed cat scratch fever from wild feral kittens (didn't know what I had yet) but woke up with the most beautiful angel with golden curls and it was both male and female, or a gorgeous male with female beauty, not sure. It hovered over me and infused a strong strong sense of forgiveness all through me. When I woke, the side where the angel hovered had saved my eye sight. The other side had permanent damage from cat scratch fever (choroidal scarring from the organism). Thats when I called eye doctor saying my vision was completely blurred and she freaked and admitted me to intensive care that moment. I was on 4 very strong antibiotics for three months and very ill. Nausea, headaches, nearly died from a cat scratch and it also damaged other central nervous system items and personality changes. So if you pick up kittens, use gloves. Cat scratch fever is awful. I was sick for 8 months or more with the worst headaches and nausea. Had to be on Ciprofloxacin, Rifampin and another one maybe Doxycycline as well as intravenous drip that dried up my veins.

So, at least three, probably many other times and I have directly experienced them. They impart a feeling, thats how you know they've been there.
And the sight of it was really really vivid and gorgeous. I suspect this was archangel Raphael because there was green flowing gowns and golden long curly hair. And it floated at an angle hovering about 6-10 feet above.

The one on the bank, I thought was female, and quite far away, like 1000 feet distance and high up in the air. But I could hear it telling me what to do without its actually saying anything. And whatever it said, it worked. We got to another bank and walked back.

OH and one that just happened, but I didn't see an angel but feel we had a miracle anyway. I wanted to show my sister a nearby Island, and just paid the 10 dollar toll when I put my foot on the brake to get into 1st gear. The brakes went all the way to the ground with zero grab. I tested it again and nothing. I hit the gas just enough to glide to the grassy shoulder past the toll and called triple A to tow it back to shop. Took two different shops and 7 days to figure out it wasn't the master cylinder, but the proportioning valve rusted and got an air bubble in it so that every time a new master cylinder was put in, it also failed. So I had to pay $1,190.00 to get it replaced. But if this had happened anywhere but at the stopped position at the toll booth, we might not be here at all. So, yes, I have had direct experiences with miracles like that. And healing miracles also.

So, I think there is reason to be spiritually sensitive and that angels are real. And also so are your ancestors on the other side who are there to guide you as well.

 

[Old Things]

I've had at least three experiences where Angels helped me. And I'm not religious and didn't have religious upbringing.
First was when sister and I were traveling with Mom and her boyfriend across country to deliver a mountain lion to Marine Land in Florida.
We stopped in a fast flowing Colorado river to cool off and it swept us out and carried us furiously to a whirlpool. Sister was about to be sucked in, and I looked up towards edge of bank and saw a hovering angel which told me to lay flat on surface and paddle hard. I told that to sister and helped pulled her out and we both escaped being sucked down.

Next was at a stoplight where I could not lift my foot to press on gas pedal. Had I pressed the gas, wouldve been side swiped by a car that ran the light.

Next was after I developed cat scratch fever from wild feral kittens (didn't know what I had yet) but woke up with the most beautiful angel with golden curls and it was both male and female, or a gorgeous male with female beauty, not sure. It hovered over me and infused a strong strong sense of forgiveness all through me. When I woke, the side where the angel hovered had saved my eye sight. The other side had permanent damage from cat scratch fever (choroidal scarring from the organism). Thats when I called eye doctor saying my vision was completely blurred and she freaked and admitted me to intensive care that moment. I was on 4 very strong antibiotics for three months and very ill. Nausea, headaches, nearly died from a cat scratch and it also damaged other central nervous system items and personality changes. So if you pick up kittens, use gloves. Cat scratch fever is awful. I was sick for 8 months or more with the worst headaches and nausea. Had to be on Ciprofloxacin, Rifampin and another one maybe Doxycycline as well as intravenous drip that dried up my veins.

So, at least three, probably many other times and I have directly experienced them. They impart a feeling, thats how you know they've been there.
And the sight of it was really really vivid and gorgeous. I suspect this was archangel Raphael because there was green flowing gowns and golden long curly hair. And it floated at an angle hovering about 6-10 feet above.

The one on the bank, I thought was female, and quite far away, like 1000 feet distance and high up in the air. But I could hear it telling me what to do without its actually saying anything. And whatever it said, it worked. We got to another bank and walked back.

OH and one that just happened, but I didn't see an angel but feel we had a miracle anyway. I wanted to show my sister a nearby Island, and just paid the 10 dollar toll when I put my foot on the brake to get into 1st gear. The brakes went all the way to the ground with zero grab. I tested it again and nothing. I hit the gas just enough to glide to the grassy shoulder past the toll and called triple A to tow it back to shop. Took two different shops and 7 days to figure out it wasn't the master cylinder, but the proportioning valve rusted and got an air bubble in it so that every time a new master cylinder was put in, it also failed. So I had to pay $1,190.00 to get it replaced. But if this had happened anywhere but at the stopped position at the toll booth, we might not be here at all. So, yes, I have had direct experiences with miracles like that. And healing miracles also.

If you experienced all this and still don't believe in God, will you ever?

 

[birdsnestfern]

And deep down I do believe in Source, absolutely. I just feel like its not necessarily the Christian version.
Or, that it can be found in almost any of the World religions, but its there. More spiritual than religious.
In other words, I've tried more than just a few and have more resonance with some than others. For example, buddhist chanting brings results the best for me and i don't follow it that much, but if I do, it works. Reiki healing does too.

I have been helped by Saints, Angels, Buddhist belief, Zen, Taoism, Sufism, Hinduism, the Green Tara, Ganesha, Quan Yin, even Jesus.
the angelic rhelms, and many others. All of the 9th ray entities. So basically, I think the Mind is very powerful and so is the heart.
However, I also have to step back and say we still don't know and should just be open to this, but realize being open to what is is the best way to see it might all be real, or it might all be mind made.

 

[Old Things]

And deep down I do believe in Source, absolutely. I just feel like its not necessarily the Christian version.
Or, that it can be found in almost any of the World religions, but its there. More spiritual than religious.
In other words, I've tried more than just a few and have more resonance with some than others. For example, buddhist chanting brings results the best for me and i don't follow it that much, but if I do, it works. Reiki healing does too.

I have been helped by Saints, Angels, Buddhist belief, Zen, Taoism, Sufism, Hinduism, the Green Tara, Ganesha, Quan Yin,
the angelic rhelms, and many others. All of the 9th ray entities.

Okay. Don't take this the wrong way, I but I think you are lost. IDK what has happened to you, but it's really weird that you have all these contradictory belief systems "helping you."

 

[birdsnestfern]

I wanted to experience and know first hand what these different beliefs were like, because to me, life is meant to explore as much as you can. I don't just want to know one religion, because how can I make an educated decision if I close my mind to everything but one? Thats how I see it. I just don't want to close my mind, maybe God is in everything including every religion, right? He probably doesn't care which one you pick.

And, I think its likely that all of these different beings are there to help us.

 

[Old Things]

I wanted to experience and know first hand what these different beliefs were like, because to me, life is meant to explore as much as you can. I don't just want to know one religion, because how can I make an educated decision if I close my mind to everything but one? Thats how I see it. I just don't want to close my mind, maybe God is in everything including every religion, right? He probably doesn't care which one you pick.

And, I think its likely that all of these different beings are there to help us.

Consider this. Not saying you have to take this 100%, but consider it.

 

[BurnedOut]

Kids are the most scientific people I have seen. They have an extremely pure sense of empiricism. I have watched a 2 year old being an epitome of the scientific method. They are just unable to comprehend why they are not able do something but apart from that most of their tantrums come from being unable to be adequately scientific

 

[Black Rose]

Kids are the most scientific people I have seen. They have an extremely pure sense of empiricism.

I remember when I was 8-9 I knew what stop-motion animation was

I also knew that to travel in space to distant planets you needed artificial wombs in robots to populate distant planets. Made a model of it from some kind of constructor toy.

I was big into science in elementary school, middle school and high school.

So many things I remember.

my first experiment was at age 7, a coat hanger on a car tire with wood steps. This was a trap to catch the coyotes in the desert ranch I lived in. It did not work but I made them everywhere I had the materials to do so.

 

[Puffy]

I've had at least three experiences where Angels helped me. And I'm not religious and didn't have religious upbringing.
First was when sister and I were traveling with Mom and her boyfriend across country to deliver a mountain lion to Marine Land in Florida.
We stopped in a fast flowing Colorado river to cool off and it swept us out and carried us furiously to a whirlpool. Sister was about to be sucked in, and I looked up towards edge of bank and saw a hovering angel which told me to lay flat on surface and paddle hard. I told that to sister and helped pulled her out and we both escaped being sucked down.

Next was at a stoplight where I could not lift my foot to press on gas pedal. Had I pressed the gas, wouldve been side swiped by a car that ran the light.

Next was after I developed cat scratch fever from wild feral kittens (didn't know what I had yet) but woke up with the most beautiful angel with golden curls and it was both male and female, or a gorgeous male with female beauty, not sure. It hovered over me and infused a strong strong sense of forgiveness all through me. When I woke, the side where the angel hovered had saved my eye sight. The other side had permanent damage from cat scratch fever (choroidal scarring from the organism). Thats when I called eye doctor saying my vision was completely blurred and she freaked and admitted me to intensive care that moment. I was on 4 very strong antibiotics for three months and very ill. Nausea, headaches, nearly died from a cat scratch and it also damaged other central nervous system items and personality changes. So if you pick up kittens, use gloves. Cat scratch fever is awful. I was sick for 8 months or more with the worst headaches and nausea. Had to be on Ciprofloxacin, Rifampin and another one maybe Doxycycline as well as intravenous drip that dried up my veins.

So, at least three, probably many other times and I have directly experienced them. They impart a feeling, thats how you know they've been there.
And the sight of it was really really vivid and gorgeous. I suspect this was archangel Raphael because there was green flowing gowns and golden long curly hair. And it floated at an angle hovering about 6-10 feet above.

The one on the bank, I thought was female, and quite far away, like 1000 feet distance and high up in the air. But I could hear it telling me what to do without its actually saying anything. And whatever it said, it worked. We got to another bank and walked back.

OH and one that just happened, but I didn't see an angel but feel we had a miracle anyway. I wanted to show my sister a nearby Island, and just paid the 10 dollar toll when I put my foot on the brake to get into 1st gear. The brakes went all the way to the ground with zero grab. I tested it again and nothing. I hit the gas just enough to glide to the grassy shoulder past the toll and called triple A to tow it back to shop. Took two different shops and 7 days to figure out it wasn't the master cylinder, but the proportioning valve rusted and got an air bubble in it so that every time a new master cylinder was put in, it also failed. So I had to pay $1,190.00 to get it replaced. But if this had happened anywhere but at the stopped position at the toll booth, we might not be here at all. So, yes, I have had direct experiences with miracles like that. And healing miracles also.

If you experienced all this and still don't believe in God, will you ever?

I get the sense she does but is maybe polytheistic. While I don’t know if she likes to be identified that way, it’s a common part of contemporary new age culture.

 

[dr froyd]

the capacity for logical thinking doesn't develop until the age of 8 or so, so that makes sense

Trouble with logic we aren't logical creatures alone.
You are never going to make anyone believe anything through logic.
A belief is inherently illogical.
There degrees of beliefs. Ergo its more logical to think that a boxer with 100 wins will win over a boxer with 0 wins. And its inherently different with two boxers with same stats, ergo lets say 50 50 chance.
Generally though that is probability of belief, which stems from experiences and knowledge not rational alone.

there's no trouble with logic, the trouble is that the human brain is quite limited in its capacity for it. We rely a lot on heuristics, for example - these are shortcuts to logic. An entirely different process of forming belief is to start with one's emotional preferences then construct rationales to support them. That is extremely common, because it takes work to avoid it.

 

[birdsnestfern]

I get the sense she does but is maybe polytheistic. While I don’t know if she likes to be identified that way, it’s a common part of contemporary new age culture.

I think thats right. Its both academic learning and experiential learning without being completely devoted.
I have some favorites though, which would be Nicherin Shoshu Buddhism, Ganesh, Angelic Rhelms, Catholicism, even a little Judaism and Hinduism and Christianity. Exploration and experience being important so I can 'know' what works and why the world is the way it is. Also, to understand historically a little about where we are today it helps to just have a little background in all the differences. Academic might be the best way to describe too.

Ok, I will check out the video soon.

 

[scorpiomover]

Define "belief" as a type of cognitive state.
Define the connection between cognitive states and their results.
QED

Belief is a mental state where an individual accepts something as true or real without absolute proof. Cognitive states influence our perceptions, thoughts, and behaviors, leading to various outcomes.

Then since a belief is a type of cognitive state, and different cognitives states produce different outcomes, obviously beliefs change outcomes, and some of those outcomes are moral outcomes. Therefore, beliefs influence moral outcomes.

now what ?

Now:
1) You observe which types of perceptions, thoughts, feelings & behaviours exist in people.
2) Then you observe which people have them, and which don't.
3) Then for each perception/thought/feeling/behaviour: you look for those attributes that are present in all people who have the same perception/thought/feeling/behaviour, and are not present in all people who do not have that perception/thought/feeling/behaviour. Then you have a 1-to-1 relation between the perception/thought/feeling/behaviour and those attributes.
4) Then you have the information to understand what beliefs cause what behaviours and thus moral outcomes, what beliefs cause immoral outcomes, and what beliefs are neutral (have no effect).

Then you'll have a good understanding of the connection between beliefs and moral outcomes.

You'll probably be quite surprised. What happens in reality is often what it says in the idealistic books, but is usually NOT the people who are lauded in society, many of which are claimed to have such traits, but clearly do not.

Part of morality is not looking for self-aggrandisement. so by definition, those who are motivated to be highly moral, are usually not looking to get famous. As a result, it is usually the case that most people have never heard of most of them, and may never hear of most of them.

 

[birdsnestfern]

Happy Mother’s Day!

 

[ZenRaiden]

Part of morality is not looking for self-aggrandisement.

Do atheist look for self-aggrandizement?
I don't think I believe what I believe because I want to be seen as all good.
I do things because I believe they are good.
Sometimes I believe good things are necessary.
I believe this one way or another.
God or no God makes no difference.
I do good things because I will them. If I will them then I will do them, because I cannot unwill them. God hovering over my head makes zilch difference.
Does this mean that my belief in God made me do them only<ERGO ZERO AGENCY IN DOING GOOD DEEDS?
Do I do good things just because someone promises me some goodies for me in afterlife?
Seems shallow as well.

 

[Black Rose]

I do good things because I will them. If I will them then I will do them, because I cannot unwill them. God hovering over my head makes zilch difference.

I think God wants independent beings.

That could mean the quality of those beings differs in morality.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I think God wants independent beings.

Of course he wants that, we aren't insects. We have individual selves. That is true.

That could mean the quality of those beings differs in morality.

We humans have different perceptions, we have different qualities, so we end up seeing things differently.
Morality can look at things differently too. Standardized unicode morality is a pipe dream.

It would be no different than gymbros telling you that there is only one right way to exercise. Different feelings, different perceptions, different strengths and weaknesses, and different environments, mean different conclusions and different experiences and different outcomes.
Key factor here is that some things are indeed universal, but if we make everything universal it would mean everyone would compromise their individuality.
That is infact the very argument against totalitarianism.
People reject it simply, because we have individual qualities that make us unique and as unified group we cannot forge all our individual qualities, what is right for me might be completely wrong for you etc.

I cannot judge everyone by standard metric. I cannot judge myself and you same way, because we are made different, whether that is GOD or nature is besides the point.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Love is not rational or logical either.

cause and effect is the very definition of logic

 

[ZenRaiden]

cause and effect is the very definition of logic

One way I agree to look at it is that its logical to fall in love, if we assume its logical to have love feelings. But we have to treat love as premise.
Or even an axiom, ergo if beings are capable of love (axiom) then they will fall in love (conclusion). However the process that happens by is not defined in logical terms, ergo the falling in love is emotional reaction and redefines the way we think about someone along the lines of trust, openness, and other factors.

This to me then comes down to semantics, of what we call logical.
If axioms are logical and part of logic, which I would argue they might not be or might be depending who defines the meaning of logic.
So obviously axiom would be the thing that we start logicing about.
But the act of logicing about is the art of logic.
To me it seems you define logic as something independent of human mind, that is inherent part of the way universe works and that our minds merely excavates this pattern.

Am I getting your perspective right?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Am I getting your perspective right?

the formation of a cloud is not "rational"

if you use the term "rational" to mean "intentionally pre-planned"

a cloud forms in a generally predictable, though somewhat chaotic manner

but that process

is still logical (bound by causes and effects)

and can be described with logic

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Morality can look at things differently too. Standardized unicode morality is a pipe dream.

PRIMAL ETHICS

(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY

 

[ZenRaiden]

the formation of a cloud is not "rational"

if you use the term "rational" to mean "intentionally pre-planned"

a cloud forms in a generally predictable, though somewhat chaotic manner

but that process

is still logical (bound by causes and effects)

and can be described with logic

Right in that sense I agree.

PRIMAL ETHICS

(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY

Sure that seems reasonable.
Morality gets interesting when we get to nitty gritty of things and decide what needs to be done, to me that is where we seem to clash as individuals.

 

[scorpiomover]

Part of morality is not looking for self-aggrandisement.

Do atheist look for self-aggrandizement?
I don't think I believe what I believe because I want to be seen as all good.
I do things because I believe they are good.
Sometimes I believe good things are necessary.
I believe this one way or another.
God or no God makes no difference.
I do good things because I will them. If I will them then I will do them, because I cannot unwill them. God hovering over my head makes zilch difference.

You have reasons to be moral, because you are a human being.
Theists are also human beings and so have all the reasons to be moral that non-theists have. They just have more reasons to be moral.

Does this mean that my belief in God made me do them only<ERGO ZERO AGENCY IN DOING GOOD DEEDS?

1) You're conflating 99.99% agency with 0% agency.
2) If theists had 0% agency over doing good deeds, then they'd all always do good deeds and never not do good deeds. In that case, theists would be super-saints. You'd always want to hang with theists, because they'd always be doing good things which would make things better for you.
3) People have choice to do what they are told, or not, even when it's from someone where it makes sense to do what that person says, such as doing your homeworks that your teacher sets you to do, which people also have choice over, and some

Do I do good things just because someone promises me some goodies for me in afterlife?
Seems shallow as well.

I've read dozens of theological books that gave lots of reasons how you should do G-d's will NOT in order to get a reward. They are extremely popular, and cited from often in religious circles and in religious talks. It's so common, that it's pretty much a household idea amongst the religious. You'd have to go pretty far to find someone religious who doesn't know of it, and even then, a guy like that would probably not be too bothered about his religion.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I've read dozens of theological books that gave lots of reasons

do good go to heaven

do bad go to hell



what are those hypothetical "lots of reasons" you speak of ?

 

[scorpiomover]

cause and effect is the very definition of logic

Cause and effect is prescriptive, e.g. "If A occurs now, then B will occur in the future."

Logic is descriptive, e.g. "If A then B" means "If A has occured, then B must have occured as well", i.e. "If B has NOT happened by now, then A COULD NOT have occurred in the past."

They're literal opposites, which is why they can be confused for the same thing.

Also, logic is very useful for deducing what must have happened in cases of cause and effect, and so people often use the tool called logic for studying cause and effect, and so often take their tools for granted.

 

[Black Rose]

Cause and effect is prescriptive

you are saying that c&e is an (ought) and logic is an (IS)

so if rocks (should/ought) fall to the ground then they can choose not to

but then 1 + 1 (is) always 2

-

ought from is - as Hume describes it means causality is unknowable

we never know if the sun will rise tomorrow

because the laws of physics can change at any moment

meaning that anything can happen

You believe this?

You believe the laws of physics is prescriptive(an ought not an is)?

 

[scorpiomover]

I've read dozens of theological books that gave lots of reasons

do good go to heaven

do bad go to hell

What if someone beats up 12 women, and a year later, jumps on a suicide bomber, killing himself, while saving the lives of 12 women? Does he go to Heaven or Hell? Should his bad deed cancel out his good deed and he get nothing? How is that fair? He gave his life to save those people. So he goes to Heaven.

On the other hand, if you're going to reward him for his good deeds even though he's done some bad ones, then it's only fair if you'll punish him for his bad deeds even though he's done some good ones. So he goes to Hell as well.

On the other hand, have you ever met anyone who has never gone anything wrong? I don't even know anyone who knows anyone who did. Have you met anyone who has done nothing but bad every second of his life? Even mass murderers haven't been stabbing everyone they walked past since they were old enough to walk, or they'd have killed a heck of a lot more people than they did. So nearly everyone's done some good things and some bad things.

So nearly everyone goes to Hell AND Heaven.

what are those hypothetical "lots of reasons" you speak of ?

1) G-d gives us life, air, working bowels, tasty food and neuroreceptors that allow us to taste food and enjoy it. This entire universe was made by G-d. G-d lets us live in the universe that G-d built, and you can't even be bothered to follow his rules? What a horrible houseguest you must be. Any sensible host would show you the door and tell you to leave (the universe).

2) For another, G-d is perfect. To not notice perfection, is just an insult to reason. To notice perfection, you have to draw your mind to it, which requires mentioning all those ways of perfection, which would be stating lots of praises.

3) To then ignore perfection's instructions, is to ignore the most perfect and most sensible, rational and moral instructions or choices or decisions you could ever have.

4) You would obviously like to improve. To improve is to become more perfect. Becoming more perfect means becoming more like the most perfect being that exists. Therefore, all improvement means to become more like G-d, to imitate G-d's ways.

Lots of reasons.

 

[scorpiomover]

Cause and effect is prescriptive

you are saying that c&e is an (ought) and logic is an (IS)

so if rocks (should/ought) fall to the ground then they can choose not to

but then 1 + 1 (is) always 2

-

ought from is - as Hume describes it means causality is unknowable

we never know if the sun will rise tomorrow

because the laws of physics can change at any moment

meaning that anything can happen

You believe this?

You believe the laws of physics is prescriptive(an ought not an is)?

1) They're only based on observation of things up till now. They're subject to new evidence. So if the new evidence tomorrow is a different set of rules, then the laws of physics must be updated to allow the laws of physics to change.

2) Granted that since these laws seem to be so consistent, it's unlikely for them to change. But in maths, a horse that has a 1 in 1,000 chance of winning a race, will still on average win a race every 1,000 races that it joins. So unless there's a force that keeps those laws of physics the same, they're bound to change sometime.

3) That change could happen lots of times over the next trillion trillion years.

4) Those changes could happen any time, even 10 times in the next 10 seconds.:

(Waits 10 seconds: don't seem to have changed yet)
(Waits 10 seconds: don't seem to have changed yet)
Phew!

5) But wait: according to decision theory, the longer a decision doesn't occur, the greater the probability that it will occur next. So the longer things stay consistent, the greater the probability that the laws of physics will change in the next second. So the better things are, the worse they'll get.

That's randomness for you. It evens everything out, makes everything fair. As it evens everything out, it's a zero-sum game. So you win only as much as lose. So you're never better off with randomness.

6) On the other hand, we can also look at the laws of physics as humans trying to come up with an explanation and a clever set of rules that are consistent with our previous observations. But then we're making it all up. So then it could easily be all wrong. With only 1 set of rules being right and every other combination of rules being wrong, we have a high probability of being wrong and a low probability of being right. So we're wasting our time by such an approach. At best, we're just telling each other stories we made up about "why some planets got a tail", to make us feel like we understand the way the world works, so we feel safe and can sleep soundly at night.

People who don't understand how the world works and how to navigate their experiences often suffer from sleepless nights that are filled with worry.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

1) G-d gives us life, air, working bowels, tasty food and neuroreceptors that allow us to taste food and enjoy it. This entire universe was made by G-d. G-d lets us live in the universe that G-d built, and you can't even be bothered to follow his rules? What a horrible houseguest you must be. Any sensible host would show you the door and tell you to leave (the universe).

threat of hell

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

2) For another, G-d is perfect. To not notice perfection, is just an insult to reason. To notice perfection, you have to draw your mind to it, which requires mentioning all those ways of perfection, which would be stating lots of praises.

not an argument for anything

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

4) You would obviously like to improve. To improve is to become more perfect. Becoming more perfect means becoming more like the most perfect being that exists. Therefore, all improvement means to become more like G-d, to imitate G-d's ways.

complete nonsense

nobody is aiming for a target they can't see

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

On the other hand, we can also look at the laws of physics as humans trying to come up with an explanation and a clever set of rules that are consistent with our previous

i'm guessing you're not an engineer

 

[Black Rose]

With only 1 set of rules being right and every other combination of rules being wrong, we have a high probability of being wrong and a low probability of being right.

unless there's a force that keeps those laws of physics the same, they're bound to change sometime.

If that force chooses to change the laws then it means that anything we do in science is arbitrary. (Decarts evil demon)

Since Descartes believed science was possible, we should assume God will not change those laws.

That means any laws God made were not arbitrarily prescriptive but had to be in the best interest of what God wanted.

5D Physics

So what I am about to describe is highly speculative. Please take this as an exploration of ideas. Given what I do know about physics, time is nonlinear. Meaning it is not a static block. If it were then nothing would move. I believe we need a place for time to evolve into. That place is...

www.intpforum.com

 

[Black Rose]

threat of hell

I would think that is a human convention

People have choice to do what they are told

or people just do things for the right/wrong reasons

God never tells all people what to do,

or people would all assume God's existence by default

everyone would agree from the same observations of what God was/is

 

[scorpiomover]

With only 1 set of rules being right and every other combination of rules being wrong, we have a high probability of being wrong and a low probability of being right.

unless there's a force that keeps those laws of physics the same, they're bound to change sometime.

If that force chooses to change the laws then it means that anything we do in science is arbitrary. (Decarts evil demon)

Yes. But when it comes an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being, nothing is arbitrary. There's a plan, and it's been the same plan all along. But we weren't told what the plan was at the start. So that is why so many extremely religious people became scientists, like Isaac Newton. They were trying to figure out G-d's plan for the universe, by looking at G-d's creations and how they behaved.

Since Descartes believed science was possible, we should assume God will not change those laws.

No. It means that if Descartes believed that science was possible, then Descartes probably had some reasons for thinking that science is possible, and since Descartes was a clever dude, if we find out WHY Descartes thought that science is possible, we might come across some clever ideas about science and some clever ideas about possibilities.

That means any laws God made were not arbitrarily prescriptive but had to be in the best interest of what God wanted.

Yes. Because G-d is omniscient. G-d knows everything, including everything we know. so we can't realistically talk as if G-d didn't know something that we think is true, because then G-d would also know what we think is true, and would also know WHY we think it's true.

 

[Old Things]

threat of hell

I mean, it's totally relevant though. About 20% of NDEs experience some form of what they would call hell or equivalent.

 

[Black Rose]

@scorpiomover

The laws of physics do not need us to know them for them to exist.

What we do not know is whether God decides to change them or not.

If he does or does not that would matter to a prescriptive set of laws.

If they never change at the most fundamental level: then they are the same as logic.

 

[scorpiomover]

On the other hand, we can also look at the laws of physics as humans trying to come up with an explanation and a clever set of rules that are consistent with our previous

i'm guessing you're not an engineer

I do software engineering that talks to all sorts of hardware and software. Wrote the software to control cheque readers, fingerprint scanners, rate boards (the lighting displays that list exchange rates). Also wrote software to control microcontrollers to control fans and lighting. Written software to communicate with Azure Cloud & Google Drive. Written software to communicate with Shopify's API and eBay's API. Written my own library to communicate with Experian. All for real-world usage, where a screw-up would have real-world noticeable consequences that would be reported back to me.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Yes. Because G-d is omniscient. G-d knows everything, including everything we know. so we can't realistically talk as if G-d didn't know something that we think is true, because then G-d would also know what we think is true, and would also know WHY we think it's true.

wow



we can't know anything in science because random shit happens randomly



but jesus loves you

 

[scorpiomover]

4) You would obviously like to improve. To improve is to become more perfect. Becoming more perfect means becoming more like the most perfect being that exists. Therefore, all improvement means to become more like G-d, to imitate G-d's ways.

complete nonsense

nobody is aiming for a target they can't see

When someone flies from New York to LA, can they see LA from New York? How can they aim for a target they cannot see?

 

[Old Things]

Yes. Because G-d is omniscient. G-d knows everything, including everything we know. so we can't realistically talk as if G-d didn't know something that we think is true, because then G-d would also know what we think is true, and would also know WHY we think it's true.

Yes. This is why I think Truth with a capital T is a one way path. All that is is what Truth is. In other words, what is is Truth. There can't be a non-Truth because it wouldn't actually exist.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I do software engineering that talks to all sorts of hardware and software.

how is that possible if logic and science are so unreliable ?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

When someone flies from New York to LA, can they see LA from New York? How can they aim for a target they cannot see?

they can see intermediate targets

and they can hold a compass heading

which they can see with their eyes

 

[scorpiomover]

Yes. Because G-d is omniscient. G-d knows everything, including everything we know. so we can't realistically talk as if G-d didn't know something that we think is true, because then G-d would also know what we think is true, and would also know WHY we think it's true.

wow

we can't know anything in science because random shit happens randomly

If you expressed statements in science mathematically, then you'd state probability ranges with confidence intervals about different scientific theories. They would not seem as powerful and reassuring that you are in control of your life. But they would be much more accurate, and therefore whatever you decide to do based on them, will be far, far more likely to be based on reality, and thus your average level of success goes up significantly. It's why scientists use maths in the first place. Scientists use maths so much, because almost nothing else has increased their success to that extent.

but jesus loves you

What has he to gain by hating you?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I mean, it's totally relevant though. About 20% of NDEs experience some form of what they would call hell or equivalent.

same with LSD

Naraka (Hinduism) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

must be true

 

[Old Things]

I mean, it's totally relevant though. About 20% of NDEs experience some form of what they would call hell or equivalent.

same with LSD

Naraka (Hinduism) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

must be true

No, because when you compare people who trip on Acid and people who have NDEs they say that the NDE is "more real." In other words, NDEs carry more sway for people and have a greater chance of changing their lives permanently than an acid trip because an acid trip might make the person more open to experiences or something but it doesn't really make people be more moral. The same goes for Eastern meditation. There are benefits of Eastern meditation (and acid) but they don't produce the same sort of resolute change in the person.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

then you'd state probability ranges with confidence intervals about different scientific theories

what's the probability graph look like for AHURA MAZDA ?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

but they don't produce the same sort of resolute change in the person

are you measuring "truth" by how convincing it is ?


it's pretty well documented that scaring the shit out of someone will make them remember you longer than if you did something nice

 

[scorpiomover]

I do software engineering that talks to all sorts of hardware and software.

how is that possible if logic and science are so unreliable ?

In my experience, things change all the time, from underlying networking components, to new legislation. What can happen is just so vast, that you can only rely on things like what definitely cannot change, and what things people might do.

 

[scorpiomover]

then you'd state probability ranges with confidence intervals about different scientific theories

what's the probability graph look like for AHURA MAZDA ?

You'd have 2 probability graphs, one for each.

 

[scorpiomover]

2) For another, G-d is perfect. To not notice perfection, is just an insult to reason. To notice perfection, you have to draw your mind to it, which requires mentioning all those ways of perfection, which would be stating lots of praises.

not an argument for anything

Depends on if you care about reason and logic or not. If you don't, then it doesn't provide any reason or logic that you would recognise, because you don't care about reason or logic. If someone does care about reason and logic, they only need to examine the argument mathematically, to see if it makes sense or not.