What is your excuse for not being vegan?

[kora]

The ones I've met are really annoying and always sick. As for real excuses...none really.

 

[Archer]

I value the taste of meat more than I value minimally affecting farming industries. Someone has to eat all those tortured chickens... mmmmm, chik-fil-a.

It's a personal choice in a world of subjective morality.

 

[Yellow]

chocolate milk

 

[green acid]

Because cognitive dissonance. I understand it's bad to kill pets because of social conditioning and not farm animals since they are commodities.

Good point. The world is so twisted, I believe this moral buffoonery affects us all. btw, I love cheese, but am vegetarian because I have gout, and a friend of mine later convinced me that meat comes from Auschwitz-like slaughter pens. so i don't eat Belsen burgers!

 

[deltamind106]

Lions eat zebras ALIVE every day on the Serengeti. Such a zebra is far more tortured than any cow humanely slaughtered by people. Animal death for food would seem to be a natural occurrence on earth. I see no moral qualm here regarding the slaughter.

You could argue about the amount of energy it takes to produce 500 kcal of beef compared to 500 kcal of vegetables. That argument might have merit.

 

[Happy]

and a friend of mine later convinced me that meat comes from Auschwitz-like slaughter pens.

People need to be more sceptical about this.

Yes, it happens, but it's occurrence is also dependent on where in the world the slaughters are taking place. For instance, I recall watching Earthlings, that vegan propaganda film. If I recall correctly, the footage they showed of the cruel slaughters took place largely in third world countries, or at least in poorer places. This seems to be a detail that vegan preachers overlook time and time again.

I have seen first hand where it's produced and I can tell you that what is depicted by propaganda and what happens in reality is certainly not the same. I'm not disputing the existence of these practices, but I refuse to believe that it's as widespread as your average vegan propagandist would have you believe.

Nonetheless, you should regard my post with scepticism and research the actual facts for yourself.

 

[rainman312]

I decided to try veganism for at least a month (maybe permanently) after watching a pretty compelling lecture. I'd recommend it (and also critique of it, because I'd honestly prefer an unrestricted diet). We'll see how it goes.

Here's the lecture for those interested. Long, but worth it in my opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UROxRLbVils

 

[Archer]

I decided to try veganism for at least a month (maybe permanently) after watching a pretty compelling lecture. I'd recommend it (and also critique of it, because I'd honestly prefer an unrestricted diet). We'll see how it goes.

Here's the lecture for those interested. Long, but worth it in my opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UROxRLbVils

Here's a transcript of the video: http://lauramarietv.com/best-speech-you-will-ever-hear-gary-yourofsky-full-transcript

Right off the bat I have a problem with this:

Is slavery – owner, victim, profit, domination – exclusive to the human race? Have blacks, Jews, women and children been the only victims of this atrocity? Have not cows been enslaved? What about pigs, chickens, turkeys, fish, sheep? If they’re not enslaved, then what are they? Free? Can slavery have a victim that is neither a human, nor an animal?
Have not the oceans, the forests, the earth itself, become victims of ownership too?

Wow... just wow. Equivocation of the word "slavery" to start off with.

Do you really think there is such a thing as humane slaughter? Exactly what is your definition of humane? Besides psychological and physical abuse, torture, dismemberment and murder, what else do you think happens to animals inside of a slaughterhouse? Do you think they get belly rubs and tushy slaps? And if you think there is such a thing as humane slaughter. I’m curious, do you also think there is such a thing as humane rape? Humane child molestation? Humane slavery? How about humane holocaust?

Which brings us to the biggest holocaust massacre of all. Every year in America, without mercy, we murder 10 billion land animals, and 18 billion marine animals.
Not for health, survival, sustenance or self-defense. People eat meat, cheese, milk and eggs for 4 reasons:

Because animal slaughter is totally on par with the holocaust.

I’ve been banned from 5 countries so far, and arrested 13 times, for random acts of kindness and compassion, on behalf of my animal brothers and sisters, if you want to read up about that, check out my website. And today, I would love to give you a chance to actually do something, and truly get involved! Because I understand that a lot of people want to get involved, honestly I do.

Same guy that claims the title as a "banned international terrorist." Operating term here being "terrorist." Oh, also the same guy that was part of an FBI recognized domestic terrorist group, known as the ALF.

That Descartes’ Cartesian way of looking at animals, like they’re machines… It is outdated, and quite frankly, 100% insane. Because, if we all understand that animals use their eyes to see, ears to hear, noses to smell, mouths to eat, legs to walk, feathers to fly, fins to swim, genitalia to procreate, bowels to defecate.. I’m always perplexed that most people don’t believe that they can also use their brains to think, feel, be rational, be aware and be self-aware.

I'm done... I think it would be fitting i-- WAIT he actually makes some scientifically refutable statements, upon further skimming.

Are you aware that physiologically the human body is actually 100% herbivorous? Plant eaters. The length of our intestines are somewhere between 7 to 13 times the length of our torso, our trunk. That’s the same length of all herbivore animal intestines on this planet.

Here he talks about the physiology of humans, and infers that we are herbivores. He actually directly states it a few sentences later., unfortunately, that is complete bullshit. Humans are omnivores. "Humans are classic examples of omnivores in all relevant anatomical traits. There is no basis in anatomy or physiology for the assumption that humans are pre-adapted to the vegetarian diet."-vrg.org
Further citations for the claim that humans are omnivores:
Robert E. C. Wildman, Denis M. Medeiros (2000). Advanced Human Nutrition p. 37
Robert Mari Womack (2010). The Anthropology of Health and Healing p. 243

One thing I've noticed more than halfway through this bullshit is that he has provided no citations, or empirically derived evidence. Don't get me wrong, there is a clear connection between eating red meat and certain disease, however he fails to provide any evidence. He also slips in clear bullshit with otherwise somewhat-rational health reasons for becoming a vegan. For example, when he claims:

Now animal protein is way too acidic for the human body. We don’t process it properly. It is the main reason why 1 in 3 meat eaters continually get cancer. And it’s one of the main causes of osteoporosis.

Eating animal protein is not one of the main causes of osteoporosis, and without a medical degree (fuck me, even with a medical degree) he should be providing academic sources for his presentation.

Now read this, from the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition:

It has been suggested that animal protein–based diets might have a greater negative effect on skeletal health than do vegetable-based diets (24) because dietary animal protein induces a greater increase in urinary calcium excretion than vegetable protein. In a large group of middle-aged and elderly women in China, urinary excretion of calcium was correlated positively with intake of animal protein (25). However, in the Framingham Osteoporosis Study in which 391 women and 224 men, whose average age at baseline was 75 y, were assessed for bone mineral density and dietary intake, a higher intake of animal protein was not associated with a decrease in bone mineral density (17). Further, in a 3-y clinical study of 342 healthy men and women 65 y of age and older, those who consumed the most protein and were supplemented with calcium experienced the greatest improvement in bone mass density, and most of the protein consumed was animal protein (26).

Moreover, clinical studies do not support the idea that animal protein has a detrimental effect on bone health or that vegetable-based proteins are better for bone health (13, 27). Several studies examining the effect of meat have found no effect on either bone mineral density or markers for bone mineral density. A 16-wk randomized crossover study of healthy postmenopausal women found that consuming a high-meat diet (297 g/d of meat), providing 117 g of protein, did not adversely affect urinary calcium excretion, calcium retention, or clinical indicators of bone formation and resorption compared with a low-meat diet (45 g/d of meat and 68 g of protein) (28). In another study, 15 patients on a constant metabolic diet, including a constant calcium intake within each individual's diet, were given either 200 or 500 g/d of meat (29). The increase in meat intake resulted in no change in urinary calcium excretion.

-http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/5/1567S.full

This is not worth watching, the signal to noise ratio is too high.

EDIT: Ok, upon viewing segments of the video he does have some sources, however after reading through a transcript, and spotting a large amount of bullshit, I don't feel it necessary to go through them.

 

[Grayman]

I decided to try veganism for at least a month (maybe permanently) after watching a pretty compelling lecture. I'd recommend it (and also critique of it, because I'd honestly prefer an unrestricted diet). We'll see how it goes.

Here's the lecture for those interested. Long, but worth it in my opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UROxRLbVils

He exaggerates alot. I had to skip the morality section because it was full of ridiculous comparisons.

Proving that we are not carnivores is a waste of time because we are not carnivores and scientifically we are omnivores.
The problem with cancer and heart disease and E coli is not because we eat meat but because we feed animals corn and grain when they should be eating grass. We have evolved eating animals that eat grass and by changing their diet we have changed ours.
http://www.globalaginvesting.com/news/blogdetail?contentid=1479

Our milk, cheese, yogurt, and eggs are also bad for us because we no longer let our cows and chickens graze.

I try to buy grass fed beef, milk, and free range eggs for this reason. The animals also have a pretty good life when they are raised free range organic so it is morally neutral by any reasonable standard. Arguably, these species rely on us since they have evolved along with us. It is a give take relationship and they need us as much as we need them.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Bacon was on discount

 

[DeadChannel]

Threads like this one.

 

[Analyzer]

Say what you say about vegans and I agree a lot of them are dogmatic people. But they are morally consistent when it comes to forming an ethic about animals. The only reason pets are considered immoral to kill or hurt is because of such societal norms which have evolved from their domesetication. So it seems like to be consistent you have to either believe all animals can be treated as commodities, deem what society says as moral is your ethics(don't see how this doesn't lead to contradictions), or believe no animals should be treated as commodities. Am I missing something?

 

[Grayman]

Say what you say about vegans and I agree a lot of them are dogmatic people. But they are morally consistent when it comes to forming an ethic about animals. The only reason pets are considered immoral to kill or hurt is because of such societal norms which have evolved from their domesetication. So it seems like to be consistent you have to either believe all animals can be treated as commodities, deem what society says as moral is your ethics(don't see how this doesn't lead to contradictions), or believe no animals should be treated as commodities. Am I missing something?

If they are so consistent, how come they don't hold all animals responsible for impeding on animals rights? My cat should be on trial for animal cruelty.

 

[Analyzer]

If they are so consistent, how come they don't hold all animals responsible for impeding on animals rights? My cat should be on trial for animal cruelty.

Not sure. Maybe because they are aware other animals rely on other animals for survival and that humans have the ability to make ethical choices which is presupposed for having a system of "rights". Why don't we have cats as lawyers or doctors?

I think the big problem vegans have is the often cheap and widespread availability of animals for human consumption, the addictive properties of diets especially dairy, and traditionalism.

 

[Grayman]

Not sure. Maybe because they are aware other animals rely on other animals for survival and that humans have the ability to make ethical choices which is presupposed for having a system of "rights". Why don't we have cats as lawyers or doctors?

I think the big problem vegans have is the often cheap and widespread availability of animals for human consumption, the addictive properties of diets especially dairy, and traditionalism.

Just thinking...

Rights are a human concept. We afford each other rights because it is mutually beneficial. You respect my rights and I respect yours. An animals does not give a shit about my rights and never will. Animals have no rights and I would never argue that animals and humans be held to the same standard as us because it would be absurd as holding a cat on trial for animal cruelty. I do promote human compassion as I believe it beneficial for all people to exercise it on a continual basis. This is why I am against animal cruelty. I believe in protecting the environment which inadvertently means protecting the animals that reside in it. I have nothing against eating dogs and cats or horses and I think there are many meat eaters who would agree.

 

[WALKYRIA]

My excuse is that changing takes time and energy that I don't have; and eating good vegan food cost alot( money, energy, time or both).
But anyway, i plan to stop drinking, having sex, smoking, eating animals on a more or less short term. I know it's extreme but I don't feel like I need it...

 

[Grayman]

I think the big problem vegans have is the often cheap and widespread availability of animals for human consumption, the addictive properties of diets especially dairy, and traditionalism.

Why would veganism be the answer to this problem? Organics and sustainable living is a better target.

 

[Analyzer]

Why would veganism be the answer to this problem? Organics and sustainable living is a better target.

What problem?

 

[Gather_Wanderer]

Short answer: Medium rare 18 0z bone-in grilled ribeye, with garlic herb butter.

 

[Happy]

Short answer: Medium rare 18 0z bone-in grilled ribeye, with garlic herb butter.

Keep talking. What are we looking at for sides?

 

[Grayman]

Keep talking. What are we looking at for sides?

Chicken sticks and fish nuggets.

 

[Gather_Wanderer]

Chicken sticks and fish nuggets.

I like green onions, so toss those on the grill along with asparagus. Maybe bell peppers as well. Of course, oven baked potato with butter and sour cream.
Beverage, could go with a cold beer but red wine is always fine. I didn't mean to rhyme.
Yes I did.

After food settles, pass out on couch.

 

[PaulMaster]

Excuse? lol, no.

I eat animals because they are made out of meat.

 

[Arclight]

Excuse?

Exactly what 'code' is being invoking that would give weight to this question?

Excuse? lol, no.

I eat animals because they are made out of meat.

I also find that meat, when cooked/cured properly, happens to be delicious.

I cannot find a greater reason to eat meat.

 

[Grayman]

Excuse?

Exactly what 'code' is being invoking that would give weight to this question?



I also find that meat, when cooked/cured properly, happens to be delicious.

I cannot find a greater reason to eat meat.

If you ever change your mind I will donate a stomach so that you can fully process plant products like any proper herbivore should be able to do.

 

[Arclight]

If you ever change your mind I will donate a stomach so that you can fully process plant products like any proper herbivore should be able to do.

HAGGIS is back on the menu!

Though in my excitement I should have probably asked you how you came about this stomach that you're offering to donate.

Meh.

 

[Ember]

Basically because I was brought up on meat and see no reason to change as it provides me with not benefits that I can quantify easily. Sure veganism *might* (according to a select few studies) have some obscure benefits but I really don't see the point.

Omnivore life only life.

Edit: I realise I may have derailed the whole haggis thing but oh well.

 

[PaulMaster]

If you ever change your mind I will donate a stomach so that you can fully process plant products like any proper herbivore should be able to do.

Humans are omnivores.

 

[Arclight]

Humans are omnivores.

Yep, which is why I enjoy veggies with my steak!

Edit: I realise I may have derailed the whole haggis thing but oh well.

Nah you didn't derail it; the 'haggis' statement was really just a bridge to the question that succeeded it.

 

[Sinny91]

Bacon.. mostly.

 

[LOLZ9000]

Because animal protein is healthy.

Also I look sickly if I don't work out and eat a lot of protein, so vanity mostly is the reason.

 

[Tannhauser]

I wouldn't complain if I got mauled by a tiger, so don't expect a chicken to complain either when I sink my teeth into it.

 

[Yellow]

I'd totally complain about being mauled by a tiger.

Well, scratch that. If I was successfully mauled and killed by a feeding (or nonfeeding) tiger, I wouldn't really get the opportunity to complain. If I was unsuccessfully mauled by a tiger, and simply left injured, I'd complain incessantly (when it suited me, and/or got people to feel guilty enough to bring me chocolate milk).

So really, when you think about it, my only complaint would be that I wasn't completely eaten by said tiger.

 

[PaulMaster]

I bet tiger meat is delicious.

 

[Tannhauser]

I decided to try veganism for at least a month (maybe permanently) after watching a pretty compelling lecture. I'd recommend it (and also critique of it, because I'd honestly prefer an unrestricted diet). We'll see how it goes.

Here's the lecture for those interested. Long, but worth it in my opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UROxRLbVils

I actually remember seeing an interview with that guy. He was was giving his reasoning of why human supposedly are herbivores by nature. He explained: "if you put a baby in a crib with an apple and a rabbit, guess what it will eat – the apple!". I almost fucking died laughing.

 

[bvanevery]

Did I respond to this thread already? My excuse is without meat, my brain falls apart in 2..3 days. I have been unable to isolate the ingredient that would keep my brain working. I wonder if I have some kind of B12 problem where I can only absorb it from meat. Heme iron is another theory, but I really don't know.

As for the ethics of veganism, you have to be comfortable with killing insects. 'Cuz that's what's gonna happen if you buy veggies from someone else. If you grow 'em yourself, you'll need to ensure your yields somehow.

Mechanical farming also kills worms and rodents when the soil is tilled.

Many farms use fish fertilizer.

Yep, did all the homework on everything. Know what I'm doing, have made my choices for now. Nothing I've tried empirically at the grocery stores, has enabled me to sustain a vegan or even vegetarian lifestyle. I also have limited funds so certain high priced experiments like seaweed are not an option. Not that I'm expecting much from that anyways, but there does become a sort of "grasping at straws" dynamic when one can't solve the obvious problem.

 

[Faux Sheezy]

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i have a bad memory

 

[Analyzer]

As for the ethics of veganism, you have to be comfortable with killing insects. 'Cuz that's what's gonna happen if you buy veggies from someone else. If you grow 'em yourself, you'll need to ensure your yields somehow.

Mechanical farming also kills worms and rodents when the soil is tilled.

Many farms use fish fertilizer.

.

Outside of my control. I use roads built by stolen money and drive cars that use oil brought out by groups who kill millions of people. To what degree is ethics important to an individual? Obviously living in a society you are faced with choices which limit complete autonomy.

 

[bvanevery]

I just think vegans should be clear on how close they're actually getting to their goal of not ever killing any animals by what they do. It takes a lot of work to verifiably achieve that.

 

[Analyzer]

I just think vegans should be clear on how close they're actually getting to their goal of not ever killing any animals by what they do. It takes a lot of work to verifiably achieve that.

I agree but I think it's a matter of degree, like most things. Individuals ultimately determine what they can or can not achieve. The hard part is understanding what you actually have control over.

 

[bvanevery]

I've rarely met a vegan proselytizer who speaks in terms of degree. Which is why they need to be reminded that they probably aren't achieving what they say they believe in and we all should be doing.

 

[Analyzer]

I've rarely met a vegan proselytizer who speaks in terms of degree. Which is why they need to be reminded that they probably aren't achieving what they say they believe in and we all should be doing.

Yeah like all other proselytizers and collectivists. It's almost implied by definition that if you proselytize an issue you're not thinking of it in nuances. If you were, you would understand that these types of issues are a matter of degree which can differ between individuals.

 

[Sly-fy]

My "excuse" for not being vegan or a vegetarian is the fact that I'm a born omnivore and a normal human being who needs protein. Having said that, I'm an animal lover who's strongly opposed to animal cruelty or the killing of animals for any reason other than consumption of sustenance. What makes it acceptable for me to eat farm animals is the fact that without them being fed and cared for by humans, they wouldn't even exist as they're docile creatures who are not self-sustainable. Plus they taste good!

 

[Brontosaurie]

What makes it acceptable for me to eat farm animals is the fact that without them being fed and cared for by humans, they wouldn't even exist as they're docile creatures who are not self-sustainable.

Do you want me to explain why this is fallacious or does a simple reminder suffice?

 

[Sly-fy]

Do you want me to explain why this is fallacious or does a simple reminder suffice?

Whatever makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Whatever makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

Do you realize that these docile creatures were specifically bred by humans for easy reliable meat production, and that they as specimens do not benefit whatsoever from the continuation of their kind of passive hapless existence?

What if we were to provide care and nourishment for a hypothetical last generation of farm animals, and then just stop making new ones. Would that somehow be immoral to you?

You've already conveniently decided that your being wrong is about my emotions, so i'm not expecting a proper reply.

I agree that domesticated animals taste better. Part of the selection is for taste. Game meat is inferior in every way.

 

[Happy]

i think what's more pertinent in that reasoning is the destruction of natural habitat and natural ecosystems that makes way for domestication in the first place.

But at the end of the day, it comes down to how many fucks you give.

I actually like the taste of game meat. And since there's twice as many kangaroos in Australia than people and they are an open range meat, I have no qualms with eating them whatsoever. Same goes for other game. Especially rabbits because they're considered a pest. A tasty pest.

 

[Sly-fy]

What if we were to provide care and nourishment for a hypothetical last generation of farm animals, and then just stop making new ones. Would that somehow be immoral to you?

In particular, neither, or. However it would be a shame to allow any species to die out. Even though we benefit from eating them, that doesn`t mean that the creatures` lives aren`t to them worth living before they`re eaten, if they`re treated ethically like free range, which is why I prefer animals being free range (plus, those tend to taste better, too.) Us humans all die eventually, does that mean that our lives aren`t worth living either just because death is inevitable?

 

[Brontosaurie]

In particular, neither, or. However it would be a shame to allow any species to die out. Even though we benefit from eating them, that doesn`t mean that the creatures` lives aren`t to them worth living before they`re eaten, if they`re treated ethically like free range, which is why I prefer animals being free range (plus, those tend to taste better, too.) Us humans all die eventually, does that mean that our lives aren`t worth living either just because death is inevitable?

So if we purposefully bred a species consisting only of a dysthymic deprived brain with a crying bloodshot cataract and a sore pus-leaking genital attached to it, it would be unethical to allow it to die out?

I see where you're coming from.

 

[Sly-fy]

So if we purposefully bred a species consisting only of a dysthymic deprived brain with a crying bloodshot cataract and a sore pus-leaking genital attached to it, it would be unethical to allow it to die out?

I see where you're coming from.

Well I don`t know where you`re coming from (and I don`t wanna know...)