What is your excuse for not being vegan?

[subwayrider]

I agree with Absurdity in that I don't think my dietary choices will change an already established system. However, I also don't want to add to that established system. I don't abstain from the system in order to change the system. I abstain because ethically I don't want to be a part of the system. It's a hairline distinction but an important one to me ethically.

Systems can and do change over time. Western society has certainly undergone some very gargantuan leaps in the last several hundred years. Maybe it begins with just a few people, but these people have the ability to influence other people, who in turn can influence even more people, eventually accelerating into a very exponential, wildfire process.

For instance, most Americans as recently as the 60s were against legalizing marijuana, and now, as I recall, just over 50% of Americans are in favor of legalization for recreational use. Just ten years ago the proportion was significantly lower.

Let's see, interracial marriage, homosexual marriage, women's suffrage, women's rights have all become very acceptable, even upheld.

Slavery, racism, arranged marriage, child labor -- these are very socially unacceptable today, whereas one to two hundred years ago they were very normal.

There are many examples of shifts in societal attitudes over the years. It's important to remember, however, that they generally take time.

The lamentable fact is that public opinion is very fickle and based not at all on reason. It's sad, but human beings are incurably pack animals. If it suddenly became taboo to partake in animal products, most people would not do it. The trick is to get enough people involved in your cause, and then it does have some power.

It's like Max Planck's quote:

"Science advances one funeral at a time."

Older generations are typically the ones set in their ways, but new ways of thinking are ushered in with new generations. It comes down to the flow of time.

 

[Cognisant]

it would be silly to continue on details, since you are disregarding the sources of all arguments i could provide to address the misinformation, that you have received from the animal industry and those who defend it for various reasons.

Peer reviewed academia dosen't work that way.

Credibility is a big deal in academia, there's nothing a professional academic HATES more than being proven wrong so they're incredibly reluctant to publish their results (usually, unless they don't have credibility to lose in the first place) until they're sure beyond a reasonable doubt that their hypothesis is correct.

If it was actually proven by repeatable experimentation that a vegan diet is healthier than a well balanced omnivorous diet it would be a huge upset, careers would be made and destroyed, that is the nature of the system, the scientific peer review system is the truest form of meritocracy I've ever encountered.

If you can't find credible academic proof for your claims then they're baseless and you're full of shit.

Or you can, and I will have to seriously consider a vegan diet

"Science advances one funeral at a time."

Culture advances one funeral at a time, science can turn a physicist into a pauper overnight if s/he doesn't stand by the scientific method.

 

[nanook]

no maybe it does not work that way, but your believes do not come from peer reviewed academia. they come from popular myth and maybe from flawed interpretations of honest studies. you speak about fool prove evidence. as if reality does not exist until proven. reality is just full of shit, since it does not offer you proof. meanwhile it is killing you and you are full of shit for not interpreting the big picture properly. i believe the word evidence has a different meaning from the word proof. proof can only exist in limited context, a closed system, like math or in vitro, where every detail is part of the experiment, so interpretation becomes undoubtable. there is no proof against solipsism. evidence is whatever is compelling to a rational mind, in reality. but it must be interpreted and interpretation is always complicated. i insist there is much evidence for my position on health. and there can be no doubt on the cruelty of how we treat animals.

who has the money to corrupt all science?

i mean the interpretation of science, for the most part.

the vegans or the life stock industry and agriculture. agriculture get's more money, when produce is wasted on life stock.

and who is too afraid of political instability to break with a tradition? what little government is left, after everything became corrupt.

 

[Cognisant]

I believe I may have hurt your feelings.

Peace?

Spoiler

NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM!

 

[subwayrider]

1. The ethical one.
Since when did Mother Nature give a fuck about that?
If you want to dispute that I suggest you take a hike, through a jungle, without a gun.
Have fun~

I can certainly understand eating animals -- it's all part and parcel of the circle of life, one of the prime laws governing the world we live in, and one which we certainly did not decree.

But to me the blatant disregard for animals, the utter lack of respect for them, is just another symptom of the ugly entitlement human beings feel they have over the Earth, which I strongly suspect will ultimately be our downfall.

If, as you say, a panther were to pounce on me and devour me, at least it would be because it was hungry and had a real need for me, and not merely for the fact that, despite having a plethora of other food choices, the panther did it just because it craved the taste of flesh that day. I have never remotely heard of an overweight or obese wild animal.

I like certain indigenous philosophies I've read on for the principles of reciprocity and respect as to nature. I think we owe it to the animals and to the land to honor them and nurture them as much as possible. Needless to say, it's also the smart thing to do, but the denial and greed of the West are what's come to define the world.

I won't be sad when we all perish. Life will begin again, in one form or another. After I realized all the holes, contradictions, shortcomings in the popular humanism of our day, of our anthropocentrism, I realized it wouldn't really be a tragedy if human beings went extinct.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Who gives a fuck what mother nature gives a fuck about? Fuck mother nature, mother nature is cruel. Sure humans are a product and part of mother nature, but we still have a capacity for moral reasoning that let's us tell right from wrong. We know what is suffering, what causes it, why, and how we might not cause it. Why should we let mother nature and not our own moral compass dictate which actions are acceptable?

Edit: The fact that this is even brought up as an argument is ample proof that when it comes to vegetarianism and veganism people have a long way to go. I would like to see someone say "yeah... well mother nature's a biatch y know" in order to defend thievery or violence. It's really just nihilism in disguise, and nihilism is equally retarded for similar reasons.

Who gives a fuck about the apparent lack of a singular meaning permeating the cosmos? As sentient beings we still experience meaning, if we didn't we wouldn't be sentient nor would we experience.

Nihilism is like scepticism. A grenade you throw unto the battlegrounds where the debate is being held. A grenade which blows everything away, enemy and allied alike; nothing is left and so whatever debate was being held is over.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

I eat meat so I don't become sick and I like the taste.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Credibility is a big deal in academia, there's nothing a professional academic HATES more than being proven wrong so they're incredibly reluctant to publish their results (usually, unless they don't have credibility to lose in the first place) until they're sure beyond a reasonable doubt that their hypothesis is correct.

I work in academia, have a bunch of peer reviewed papers in my name and review journal papers in my field of expertise. What you write is not the general case. There's a extremely high frequency of people attempting to publish and publishing all manners of bullshit. This website should open your eye a bit: http://retractionwatch.com/

 

[Puffy]

I work in academia, have a bunch of peer reviewed papers in my name and review journal papers in my field of expertise. What you write is not the general case. There's a extremely high frequency of people attempting to publish and publishing all manners of bullshit. This website should open your eye a bit: http://retractionwatch.com/

Or this: http://dh.elsewhere.org/pomo/

massive pressure to publish = tonnes of bullshit.

edit: on topic - basically agree with Absurdity. Abstaining or not I think it's difficult to escape your overall complicity to the situation. Ethically I don't think I'd feel better, other than the potential of being an example of alternative diets to others.

I've considered becoming vegetarian multiple times but the reality is that my diet's not that great and I have little cooking sensibility as it is (pls feel sorry for my Englishness, our food is awful for a reason). My sister was vegetarian for years and eventually had to start eating meat again for health reasons (note: see Englishness), I doubt my health would fare much better atm tbh, maybe when my culinary skills have matured or I find a foreign wife/ Absurdity husband.

 

[TheManBeyond]

Becuz i don't get the same levels of satisfaction. You see lately i've been diagnosed with irritated colon mostly becuz my highly toxic fanatism for coca cola, i've stoped from drinking it hour after hour for some days but i'm sure that sooner or later i'll get back to her. The same would happen with vegan food. Why not be openmouthed to both? why you chosing a group to feel you belong and you're accomplishing some goal in the natural development of the universe?. BS.

 

[Jaffa]

I don't think that this is the correct question.

As we are omnivores you are making the conscious decision to NOT eat meat. I have never made a conscious decision to eat meat, it's just something that I've done without much thought.

I have little to no patience for veganism, infact I classify it in the same realms of religion.

I do have patience in the promotion of animal welfare and would happily pay more money to know that the meat which I'm about to eat was raised in an organic (Yes, I said that word) environment and was killed humanely.

But this isn't a reason to go against evolution.

 

[Turniphead]

I don't think that this is the correct question.

As we are omnivores you are making the conscious decision to NOT eat meat. I have never made a conscious decision to eat meat, it's just something that I've done without much thought.

Wait? So you don't make any conscious decisions about the food you eat?

"It's technically edible, In the mouth it goes!"

That sort of thing?

I have little to no patience for veganism, infact I classify it in the same realms of religion.

*shrug*

I do have patience in the promotion of animal welfare and would happily pay more money to know that the meat which I'm about to eat was raised in an organic (Yes, I said that word) environment and was killed humanely.

But this isn't a reason to go against evolution.

Evolution is an ongoing process, if humans stopped eating meat, we would become more and more adapted to being herbivores.
I really can't understand what going "against evolution" would even mean. And I don't see how it's even possible.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Evolution is an ongoing process, if humans stopped eating meat, we would become more and more adapted to being herbivores.

that would require a substrate for selection, a major ecological threat, but humanity is currently facing overpopulation due to vastly enhanced survivability. thus it appears unlikely that a thing like reduced absorption of vegetable protein should be so frequent a death cause or reproductive impediment as to facilitate adaption. by my estimate the only significant genetic determinants of successful reproduction today are the ones subject to post-colonialism and thereby connected with socio-economic oppression. there is no functioning natural evolution going on among our species. from a back while on, we've transcended it. we are entering engineered evolution instead.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I believe I may have hurt your feelings.

Peace?

Spoiler

NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM!

Okay but what did you think about Nanook's post? I may be misinterpreting but the whole "hurt your feelings"-bit just comes of as a master suppression technique to me.

 

[Cognisant]

Bullshit science does get published, but the fact that two sites have already been linked to showing these bullshit papers up as bullshit just goes to show there is a vetting process for these things, I never said I'd be convinced by any academic publication I said I want credible proof.

Beyond that nanook's post was mainly emotive soap-boxing.

Subwayrider made a good point about the law of the jungle not exactly being applicable to human beings and industrialised meat production is needlessly cruel, although in a properly run & regulated slaughterhouse cattle are killed with boltguns (not the WH40K bolter, a pneumatic piston ramming thing) so the cattle/pigs/sheep/whatever don't feel any pain, and I think poultry are nitrogen gassed which is painless too.

So compared to "natural" hunter-gatherer methods we're a lot more considerate, as far as I know sheep & cattle are still raised in fields so they live short yet relatively idyllic lives, the cage farming of eggs is cruel but an increasingly discouraged practice (you can buy free range eggs if you want) I hear sows are kept in separate cages but that's mainly to protect them from each other and I'm pretty sure poultry raised for direct consumption is always free range (specifically in climate controlled barns where they're safe/warm/dry/etc) so they grow faster/healthier.

All in all happy animals are healthy animals and healthy animals are more productive so although animal cruelty does happen I'm pretty sure in most developed nations good animal welfare is industry standard and government mandated.

So what's the problem?

Okay so we raise more animals than needed and so more animals are slaughtered than needed, but the waste gets recycled in various ways and these animals would never have lived their short relatively idyllic lives if they'd never been born. So I dunno after a point this whole animal welfare thing starts to get ridiculous, is there going to be campaigning for animals to live self determinate lives, rather than having selective breeding should we put the bulls in with the cows and let them sort it out themselves the natural way?

A chicken raised in a barn to be slaughtered may seem like a meaningless life but we all die so I don't know why you think your life is any less meaningless, we just live in a bigger barn.

 

[Turniphead]

that would require a substrate for selection, a major ecological threat, but humanity is currently facing overpopulation due to vastly enhanced survivability. thus it appears unlikely that a thing like absorption of vegetable protein should be so frequent a death cause or reproductive impediment as to facilitate adaption. by my estimate the only significant genetic determinants of successful reproduction today are the ones subject to post-colonialism and thereby connected with socio-economic oppression. there is no functioning natural evolution going on among our species. from a back while on, we've transcended it. we are entering engineered evolution instead.

Right, good point.
I would still think of our current stability as a part of evolution though. I was really just trying to get at how the concept of going against evolution is a strange one.

@Cog

As far as I know there is a huge range in the conditions animals are kept before their deaths. I've seen some living relatively "idyllic" lives, but others in pretty terrible conditions.


Personally I don't necessarily care much either way. But a lot of animal farming has both a negative effect on ecosystems as well as the animals themselves.
As someone who wishes I didn't have to eat at all to survive, generally avoiding meat is a pretty easy thing to do.

 

[Brontosaurie]

going against evolution can be a pretty big deal. our unnatural eating habits have brought on pandemics of diabetes, cancer and cardiac disease, although meat deficiency isn't a concern.

 

[Turniphead]

Sure, I still can't see those choices as being separate from evolution though.

 

[Oedipus]

I just can't be bothered.

 

[tinplythedinply]

There are many great reasons to consume less meat. Of course, there is the animal welfare issue to take into consideration. Though I don't consider it unethical to kill an animal, I do consider it unethical to inflict unnecessary suffering on any sentient being. Then you have the environmental part. Cultivating meat, particularly beef, is contributing to much environmental destruction that will have disastrous consequences in the future. Agricultural farming produces far less waste, co2 emissions and takes up less land, there is no denying this.

I did dabble in vegetarianism for a while, but I grew tired of people thinking they knew what was best for me, and that was to consume copious amounts of meat. Especially dear ESFJ mother-in-law. Oh, how I love her. I don't see how my diet is anyone's business quite frankly, and I highly resent people attempting to control it.

 

[pjoa09]

cuz veggie suck

so ew

I eat a lot of chicken because it's hard getting the required protein from other stuff and they taste like chit.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Sure, I still can't see those choices as being separate from evolution though.

it is true that our rampant behaviors in abscence of habitat-imposed restrictions are intertwined with and result from biological evolution just like all of our activity. but why indulge in semantic nitpicking when the point is perfectly clear?

 

[Valentas]

Because I'm part of nature. In nature, animals kill and eat other animals. In human world, we figured a way to grow them and kill them. Thus more efficient. If you ever get into survival situation, good luck in surviving with eating plants. A lot of them are poisonous, some can cause allergy while catching anything that moves and has eyes has an almost guaranteed chance to be edible and more nutritious. Debating with vegans is truly stupid because we are part of natural world and to be healthy, we must eat what it provides. I emphasize natural foods. It does not matter that you eat meat. You will live long and be healthy if you eat traditionally raised animals, i.e. cow eats grass, chicken runs outside all day. I can throw you a recent study by Cambridge University where they found no correlation between intake of saturated fats and heart disease. I understand proponents of China Study but I also understand that healthiest tribes on earth all eat meat, eat small amounts of fruit and of course eat vegetables. But they are not vegans. The vegans I met in my life were mostly women who looked like flag poles with bags under their eyes. Also, I could not function at the gym and running I do without meat, I would be flat dead from exhaustion.

 

[Brontosaurie]

^ that's a mess of selective conflation and sheer hypocrisy.

btw does the slippery slope fallacy have an opposite? the "backtilted staircase fallacy"? the "infinite traction" fallacy?

 

[Turniphead]

but why indulge in semantic nitpicking when the point is perfectly clear?

I guess I don't see it as nitpicking, but rather as attempting to get closer to the truth. Besides that, the meaning was genuinely not clear to me.

 

[Brontosaurie]

I guess I don't see it as nitpicking, but rather as attempting to get closer to the truth. Besides that, the meaning was genuinely not clear to me.

in this particular case, the "evolutionary caution" was applied erroneously - because humans have no need for meat - however, it is valid in principle, since it is possible and very likely that many of our artificial habits are detrimental due to their dissimilarity to the kind of habits we have evolved to perform.

 

[Basilisk]

To piss off vegans

 

[Causeless]

So what happens when we can just arrange the molecules we need into the food we desire?

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

So what happens when we can just arrange the molecules we need into the food we desire?

Some people lose their faith, sense of belonging to a group and their favourite green badge of honour.

 

[Turniphead]

Someone posted this, and I thought of this thread.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-28409704

"In fact, eliminating beef, and replacing it with relatively efficiency animal-based alternatives such as eggs, can achieve an environmental improvement comparable to switching to plant food source."

 

[EyeSeeCold]

So what happens when we can just arrange the molecules we need into the food we desire?

"What is your excuse for not being GMOean?"

 

[nexion]

"What is your excuse for not being GMOean?"

Seriously, GMO seems kind of small-scale now, but there are already people who religiously believe that GMO is some other government mind experiment or that it is inherently harmful in some way.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Seriously, GMO seems kind of small-scale now, but there are already people who religiously believe that GMO is some other government mind experiment or that it is inherently harmful in some way.

It's disappointing that some people will believe in media hype, as well as form/further their suspicions without seeking factual information.

At the same time though the problem is definitely systemic. Like with every other topic the public is kept misinformed and ignorant through news media. Votes/attitudes can be manipulated to inadvertently support the agendas of politicians and businesses.

I didn't realize the business-legal implications of GMOs myself until these last few years, and thought it was only a matter of ethics and science.

 

[subwayrider]

It's disappointing that some people will believe in media hype, as well as form/further their suspicions without seeking factual information.

At the same time though the problem is definitely systemic. Like with every other topic the public is kept misinformed and ignorant through news media. Votes/attitudes can be manipulated to inadvertently support the agendas of politicians and businesses.

I didn't realize the business-legal implications of GMOs myself until these last few years, and thought it was only a matter of ethics and science.

Unfortunately, I find myself in the above trap often enough, but not because I don't care to know the truth. I just don't really have the time for research topic after research topic. Unfortunately, laziness also plays a part.

But that's what INTP friends are for!

Not that they are immune to the same. It's simply a very human tendency to prematurely accept information and too-soon come to conclusions just because they reinforce prejudices.

 

[subwayrider]

Subwayrider made a good point about the law of the jungle not exactly being applicable to human beings and industrialised meat production is needlessly cruel, although in a properly run & regulated slaughterhouse cattle are killed with boltguns (not the WH40K bolter, a pneumatic piston ramming thing) so the cattle/pigs/sheep/whatever don't feel any pain, and I think poultry are nitrogen gassed which is painless too.

So compared to "natural" hunter-gatherer methods we're a lot more considerate, as far as I know sheep & cattle are still raised in fields so they live short yet relatively idyllic lives, the cage farming of eggs is cruel but an increasingly discouraged practice (you can buy free range eggs if you want) I hear sows are kept in separate cages but that's mainly to protect them from each other and I'm pretty sure poultry raised for direct consumption is always free range (specifically in climate controlled barns where they're safe/warm/dry/etc) so they grow faster/healthier.

All in all happy animals are healthy animals and healthy animals are more productive so although animal cruelty does happen I'm pretty sure in most developed nations good animal welfare is industry standard and government mandated.

See, that is where things get truly slippery, because what you are doing is engaging in wishful thinking. When you consider the sheer demand for meat, then you must see that there is good reason to believe that these animals are NOT living the idyllic lives they allegedly -- at the word of the entities selling us the products, it must be pointed out -- live. I doubt the kind of data exists that would finally put to rest the question of just how much of our animal-derived foods come from farms and slaughterhouses, etc., wherein animals are treated cruelly. But just looking at how much meat/dairy/eggs Americans consume, it is not unreasonable to believe the claim of the vegetarian/vegan/animal rights groups, which is that only factory farming could conceivably churn out the amount of animal products we ingest at the rate at which we go.

So, as with all products, the companies communicate to us via advertisements that all is well, and suddenly we can deceive ourselves into feeling OK about consuming.

So what's the problem?

Okay so we raise more animals than needed and so more animals are slaughtered than needed, but the waste gets recycled in various ways and these animals would never have lived their short relatively idyllic lives if they'd never been born. So I dunno after a point this whole animal welfare thing starts to get ridiculous, is there going to be campaigning for animals to live self determinate lives, rather than having selective breeding should we put the bulls in with the cows and let them sort it out themselves the natural way?

A chicken raised in a barn to be slaughtered may seem like a meaningless life but we all die so I don't know why you think your life is any less meaningless, we just live in a bigger barn.

You must realize how badly that all reeks of rationalization.

But I understand. My save-the-world and martyr complexes had begun to make life unbearable for me, and I knew I had to turn once again to the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism, which, relevant to this discussion, expound that life is suffering, and that this suffering comes about as a result of wishing things would be distinct from what they are.

I don't know at what point precisely this acceptance becomes rationalization or apathy. The logical extension of wanting to spare animals pain by abstaining from meat/dairy is wanting to spare all sentient beings pain and suffering. But that is impossible. Should I not spray my house to keep bugs out? Agriculture degrades the soil and destroy wildlife habitats, so should I not eat vegetables? Plants are alive, also, should I not eat them? Should I not use toilet paper because it comes from trees? Thus it seems impossible to me to live by such a value system as I live by with respect to farm animals and not constantly trip over the holes in it.

I console myself by reminding myself that "the best you can is good enough" (when it is actually your best), and that the best rule is the Platinum Rule: Do unto others as they would have you do unto them.

 

[Mirror]

Because animals are tasty and I am lazy.

I eat plants too. I just indiscriminately just walk around and consume the world. Everyone does. It's what organisms do.

 

[Captain]

When I see a cow I just get hungry and think steak or when I see a lamb I see a lamb chop and just start salivating at the mouth.. mmmmmmm....

 

[AquaTron]

My excuse for not being vegan is I would rather live a long, healthy life with a well functioning brain. There are several essential nutrients our bodies need to survive that are only found in meat. I'm not going to carefully plan out my meals with supplements to make up for the lack of nutrients. Human evolution is linked to eating meat.

 

[Solitaire U.]

All the health and nutritional aspects aside, even if I decided to adhere to 'vegan-esque' eating habits, I would never ever EVER identify as, let alone promote 'vegan' simply because I despise the culture.

It's akin to gaming. I love video gaming, but I will never ever EVER self-identify as a 'gamer' simply because I find mainstream 'gamer culture' to be an immature, squabbling, petty, den of intellectual inequity.

 

[Cognisant]

So what happens when we can just arrange the molecules we need into the food we desire?

We keep killing animals for food because it's tradition

I can't even write that with a straight face.

 

[Cognisant]

So, as with all products, the companies communicate to us via advertisements that all is well, and suddenly we can deceive ourselves into feeling OK about consuming.

I don't need to deceive myself I just don't care, it's inappropriate to say such things as a matter of precedence and universal bigger fish theory but if the alluded to bigger fish were to show up on my doorstep wishing to consume me I seriously doubt it would care about the choices I've made.

So it just doesn't matter and if it doesn't matter why would I care other than to gain some self righteous satisfaction, your opinions on this matter reek of self righteousness, or to be more accurate I don't understand what else could be motivating you to care about an issue that doesn't personally affect you.

You must realize how badly that all reeks of rationalization.

You ask and I answer, I don't have to rationalize anything I just enjoy debating

But I understand. My save-the-world and martyr complexes had begun to make life unbearable for me, and I knew I had to turn once again to the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism, which, relevant to this discussion, expound that life is suffering, and that this suffering comes about as a result of wishing things would be distinct from what they are.

In the west we call that existential nihilism.

I don't know at what point precisely this acceptance becomes rationalization or apathy. The logical extension of wanting to spare animals pain by abstaining from meat/dairy is wanting to spare all sentient beings pain and suffering. But that is impossible. Should I not spray my house to keep bugs out? Agriculture degrades the soil and destroy wildlife habitats, so should I not eat vegetables? Plants are alive, also, should I not eat them? Should I not use toilet paper because it comes from trees? Thus it seems impossible to me to live by such a value system as I live by with respect to farm animals and not constantly trip over the holes in it.

Yes a crisis of faith! Another mind is freed from stupidity.

I console myself by reminding myself that "the best you can is good enough" (when it is actually your best), and that the best rule is the Platinum Rule: Do unto others as they would have you do unto them.

So that's your post modern modus operandi, your categorical imperative, your scream of absurd defiance in the abyss of irrelevance.

I think you could do better but hey if it's what keeps you from losing your mind I suppose it's better than nothing.

 

[Brontosaurie]

why do you care about logic and science and future technological developments? do these things concern you personally? why is it so strange to think that ethics might concern someone else personally?

the big question is if central ethical principles of group cohesion/harmony are applicable across species. i'd wager that inter-special empathy is some kinda collective neurosis born out of our tradition of keeping animals rather than a natural expression of a healthy mind and that exploiting other species really isn't a problem at all despite being a repulsive idea to many - because any distaste and suffering this practice might entail requires a delusion of kinship which in itself brings a lot more suffering as it causes us to stray from the conscious organism's optimal course of development. however, excessive meat consumption is still a problem for us, directly.

 

[Cognisant]

why do you care about logic and science and future technological developments? do these things concern you personally?

Is that even a question?

why is it so strange to think that ethics might concern someone else personally?

When they clearly don't, yes, yes it is.

however, excessive meat consumption is still a problem for us, directly.

Lol you got me there.

 

[MentalBrain]

I don't really care one way or the other. I honestly find eating to be an inconvenience in and of itself, so I'm not going to add to that inconvenience by limiting my diet, especially if the only reason I have to limit my diet is because some holier-than-thou person tells me to. I'm most likely going to die sooner or later, so I'm not going to limit my choices to prolong the inevitable by a small and questionably-useful margin.

 

[nerd866]

I don't feel strongly about becoming vegan so I default to not being vegan - the state in which I was raised.

there is nothing appealing to me about the idea of being vegan so why would I put forth un-necessary effort to change myself with no purpose?

 

[own8ge]

I don't feel strongly about becoming vegan so I default to not being vegan - the state in which I was raised.

there is nothing appealing to me about the idea of being vegan so why would I put forth un-necessary effort to change myself with no purpose?

If you were a vegan, would you then take the consideration and effort to change to non-vegan? Or are you just lazy? ...

 

[dad]

My excuse? Well let me tell you, sir. I'm not vegan because I have canines, um, hello? They are there so that I can eat animals because that is the circle of LIFE.

Veganism has no science behind it! I can’t tell you the instances where I’ve had to explain basic mammalian biology to an uneducated vegan. I always have to explain to them that unlike every other mammal, cows don't need to be constantly impregnated, no. Cows are a medical anomaly, they produce milk on their own -- for humans to drink. We're doing them a favor if you really think about it. Then vegans will go on spewing their propaganda to which i say, they are wrong. Milk that was obviously biologically designed for humans, not their own offspring.

Besides, ethics are based on a majority vote. If lots of people consume milk, then how in the world could it be unethical? Rhetorical question, it's not unethical. My mom, my moms mom, and moms before that all ate meat. SO what I am doing is not unethical. Check mate.

Who cares about ethics anyways? Mother nature is cruel, we are humans and part of nature. It's in our nature to be cruel....... did i mention is NATURAL for us.... humans.... to eat meat. I didn’t make the rules. Just living by them. Our ancestors eating meat has nothing to do with it being a less developed time, thats also vegan propaganda. If it’s good enough for prehistoric man, then I certainly don’t understand why I should have to give it a second thought. I take all of my justifications for what I do based on what neanderthals did, which is why I’m writing this on a computer with electricity, and internet connection, just like they did.

Humans are also the superior race, yeah thats right. We are smart and can do things, cows on the other hand, they were too stupid to be born human. So they deserve to be born into a life of suffering, just to be slaughtered for us OMNIVORES (because thats what we are) to buy their tasty meat parts at a store. It's the law of nature.

And has anyone ever noticed how vegans don't care about others? They just care about themselves and being special snowflakes. What about those poor impoverished workers that pick their vegetables? Yeah, not comment because vegans are classist. Vegans will never get the privileged position that vegans are in. Burgers, sausage, bacon? Poor people food, it's been like this since the dawn of time. Rice, potatoes, peas, lentils? No, thats snooty rich people food. I swear, these vegans are hypocrites.

I always tell them to stop acting like an elitist prick just because your diet is different from mine, doesn’t give you the right to act like a douche. You want to not needlessly kill animals and I want to eat them because its my god given right. These are just simply choices. YOU’RE NOT BETTER THAN ME!!! They seriously need to drop the attitude.

I get it ok….on an extremely rare, once in a billion, occasion, farm animals are slaughtered and cut up in non-nice way. But instead of trying to eliminate the slaughter, why don’t we try to kill the animals in a nicer way, like humane slaughter. But vegans do realize that animals can’t feel pain, right? Also, how come you don’t care about all the plants that you kill?

I wish you luck fighting this with vegans. It’s going to be a tough battle…they have some seriously messed up indoctrinated, and conditioned beliefs.

 

[own8ge]

My excuse? Well let me tell you, sir. I'm not vegan because I have canines, um, hello? They are there so that I can eat animals because that is the circle of LIFE.

Veganism has no science behind it! I can’t tell you the instances where I’ve had to explain basic mammalian biology to an uneducated vegan. I always have to explain to them that unlike every other mammal, cows don't need to be constantly impregnated, no. Cows are a medical anomaly, they produce milk on their own -- for humans to drink. We're doing them a favor if you really think about it. Then vegans will go on spewing their propaganda to which i say, they are wrong. Milk that was obviously biologically designed for humans, not their own offspring.

Besides, ethics are based on a majority vote. If lots of people consume milk, then how in the world could it be unethical? Rhetorical question, it's not unethical. My mom, my moms mom, and moms before that all ate meat. SO what I am doing is not unethical. Check mate.

Who cares about ethics anyways? Mother nature is cruel, we are humans and part of nature. It's in our nature to be cruel....... did i mention is NATURAL for us.... humans.... to eat meat. I didn’t make the rules. Just living by them. Our ancestors eating meat has nothing to do with it being a less developed time, thats also vegan propaganda. If it’s good enough for prehistoric man, then I certainly don’t understand why I should have to give it a second thought. I take all of my justifications for what I do based on what neanderthals did, which is why I’m writing this on a computer with electricity, and internet connection, just like they did.

Humans are also the superior race, yeah thats right. We are smart and can do things, cows on the other hand, they were too stupid to be born human. So they deserve to be born into a life of suffering, just to be slaughtered for us OMNIVORES (because thats what we are) to buy their tasty meat parts at a store. It's the law of nature.

And has anyone ever noticed how vegans don't care about others? They just care about themselves and being special snowflakes. What about those poor impoverished workers that pick their vegetables? Yeah, not comment because vegans are classist. Vegans will never get the privileged position that vegans are in. Burgers, sausage, bacon? Poor people food, it's been like this since the dawn of time. Rice, potatoes, peas, lentils? No, thats snooty rich people food. I swear, these vegans are hypocrites.

I always tell them to stop acting like an elitist prick just because your diet is different from mine, doesn’t give you the right to act like a douche. You want to not needlessly kill animals and I want to eat them because its my god given right. These are just simply choices. YOU’RE NOT BETTER THAN ME!!! They seriously need to drop the attitude.

I get it ok….on an extremely rare, once in a billion, occasion, farm animals are slaughtered and cut up in non-nice way. But instead of trying to eliminate the slaughter, why don’t we try to kill the animals in a nicer way, like humane slaughter. But vegans do realize that animals can’t feel pain, right? Also, how come you don’t care about all the plants that you kill?

I wish you luck fighting this with vegans. It’s going to be a tough battle…they have some seriously messed up indoctrinated, and conditioned beliefs.

You are telling me that you base yourself on scientific facts. However, I have not read one fact in that dazzle of stupidity of yours. You are telling me cows are MADE for humans. Are you insane? Are you a creationist? Geesh.

You would only need to look at statistics to know vegans are healthier than non-vegans. Yes we are priviledged to be able to only eat real food. However, people who come to this forum are as priviledged; They can affort themselves to be eating real food aswell. So what's stopping you besides your greed, lack of compassion, and stupid creationist - or simply brainwashed by the media - mind?

Oh, and one more argument. Humans are lactose intolerant (Unless we drink it anyways on a regular basis. In that case our body tries to cope with our insanity.)
http://www.collective-evolution.com...ose-intolerant-for-a-reason-dairy-is-harmful/

 

[Beowulf]

I personally just love the taste and texture of meat. And as someone who has weightlifting as a serious part in his life, I kind of get tired of eating beans(and soy related products) and nuts to get the protein I need. With that being said i am a son of a former farmer and so i buy directly and try to support local farms where i live and farms that treat their animals with some type of decency.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Dad is a troll?