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What do you do when people are stupid?

Montresor

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So what do you do when people are stupid? In real life. Not on the forum.

Do you play it cool?

Get hotheaded? (me)

Judge inwardly?

If you want an example ... so we're talking about cars at break today and one guy is yammering on about 302 this and 360 that and another guy says he doesn't even know what the numbers mean.

So I start to tell him that it's the volume of air/fuel mixture that's sucked into the engine block on every compression stroke, in cubic inches.

Before I can even finish, and without listening at all, the other guy interrupts me and says that I'm wrong, it's the size of the block, and he "knows cars". So he references himself and his extensive "knowledge". He says it has nothing at all to do with fuel, or air, it's simply the "size of the block".

It's not that he was even wrong it's that his explanation was vague and incomplete - he didn't truly know he only sort of knew. He knew it was the size of the block but not what that figure actually represents; he couldn't make it meaningful.

It wound up turning into an argument where we were both arguing the same point, but he would always tell me I'm wrong because "he knows" and because he couldn't readily accept what I was saying as having the same quantifiable meaning as what he was saying.

When I would try and explain this or argue back I was silenced ... nobody wanted to hear from me anymore. They all pulled the "oh I don't care" card. (Kind of like on the forum when somebody pulls the "oh I was trolling card"...)

That's what I mean by stupid.


Share your story or not I just want to know if INTPs stay cool or get angry (and I mean furious) at this kind of ILLOGICAL CRAP.
 

ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε

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Yeah, I actually do get mad when people argue with me in a way I would label as illogical. It's actually something more than just anger, I get a sort of pleasure from it. I think I get satisfaction both from proving someone wrong and from learning how to word something in a more precise way that makes more sense in my mind. I pretty much love arguing, I don't feel furious.
 

BigApplePi

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Case I. If it's me, I hang my head in shame.
Case II. It's not me.
A. If it doesn't affect me, I puzzle about what's behind it.
Ba. If it affects me positively, I'm not sure but I don't think I do anything.
Bb. If it affects me negatively, I start worrying and have to do something.
 

Montresor

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^But the use of the word affect implies something emotional.

So does it affect you or not? I must know!
 

BigApplePi

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So does it affect you or not? I must know!
I must reply. I dislike the word BECAUSE it's emotional and subjective. Perhaps I might become more accepting and take in this emotional usage which complicates my reaction.

I don't accept that term. People are not stupid. They make errors.
 

Montresor

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I must reply. I dislike the word BECAUSE it's emotional and subjective. Perhaps I might become more accepting and take in this emotional usage which complicates my reaction.

I don't accept that term. People are not stupid. They make errors.

You are mistaken in your interpretation of my last post.

When I said
^But the use of the word affect implies something emotional.
You thought I meant the word "stupid" but I meant the word "affect" in response to your post.

Because you categorized your potential responses as to whether the stupidity affects you or not, and I replied to say the word "affect" implies emotive context, meaning it affects you if it affects you and it doesn't if it doesn't - but that doesn't get me anywhere with this thread.

I want to know if it affects you!!! haha.
 

The Observer

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It depends on the situation. If someone has corrected me with what is actually the wrong information and I know so for a fact, I tell them in a mild way that, no, it's not that way actually. And if they keep insisting in a condescending manner that they are right, after I explain why what they are saying is incorrect, then I start blowing up. I have to say though, I do enjoy a good argument.
 

Montresor

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It depends on the situation. If someone has corrected me with what is actually the wrong information and I know so for a fact, I tell them in a mild way that, no, it's not that way actually. And if they keep insisting in a condescending manner that they are right, after I explain why what they are saying is incorrect, then I start blowing up. I have to say though, I do enjoy a good argument.

Yeah this is a lot closer to what happened today. Only I didn't blow up ... I might have blown a fuse but it happened inwardly and I zoned out for a few minutes.

I love a good argument too! I wanted to argue!** That was the most frustrating part is that I was denied any argument. He just was allowed to act that way and then when I tried to reply everybody just told me that it was enough and to stop and that "nobody cares".

**Actually I just wanted the individual to think about what I was saying for 10 seconds and he would see that I'm just defining with precision the same concept that he vaguely alludes to...
 

Duxwing

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My reaction to stupidity is much like that of a turbojet engine to its ignition switch. At first it's just a quiet whine, then builds into a loud whoosh, and finally a howling roar that sucks people in and chops them up. Alternatively:

Level 0: All systems normal, proceed on task.
Level 1: Logic error detected. Correcting.
Level 2: Unexpected resistance encountered. Restating and clarifying.
Level 3: Resistance is stubborn. Logic combat systems engaged. Emotional shields raised. Detailed argument made.
Level 4: Resistance is fierce. All debate systems online and all emotional energy re-routed to reasoning refrigeration, intuition, and emotional shielding. Scanning for a logic hole to pin opponent with mind-rending cognitive dissonance.
Level 5: Resistance is almost unrelenting. Full throttle, lock and load. Get ready for an all-out war. Switch off intuition and ramp up delivery power at known weak-spots.
Level 6: Unbelievable stupidity detected. MAXIMUM EXTERMINATION LEVEL ACTIVATED. Raise voice and reroute all power to delivery of message.
Level 7: Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war. Eat them alive and rape them dead, then burn their blood-soaked corpse to ashes and annihilate the ashes with antimatter, laughing and screaming in sadistic euphoria as every last trace of my hated enemy is utterly obliterated. THERE WILL BE NOTHING LEFT! AUHAHAHAHA! AUHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!

That's how I deal with stupidity.

-Duxwing
 

Synthetix

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Some people will be stubborn about nauseating you with their false information. When presented with evidence to the contrary, the individual will rely on ad hominem maneuvers.
 

Hadoblado

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I've had panic attacks when someone attacked my position publicly (and stupidly). I'm normally fairly cruisy, but there is something about a committal conflict that upsets me. In the circumstance mentioned above, I was 100% correct, but the knowledge that this guys was either going to brute force his misinterpretation through my carefully considered position, or be publicly proven wrong in his attempt to do so, was an impossible situation. I don't want to ruin someone's day by shutting them down in front of their friends, but I also don't want to be pushed aside by some unthinking and uncaring tool. Nobody could win, and it made me intensely uncomfortable.

Normally I just file it away in my 'reasons to be disappointed in humanity' draw.
 

Polaris

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I get a bit impatient, which can come across a little blunt. I want people to understand quickly, for their own benefit...but sometimes have the realisation that I haven't considered their unique perspective and therefore come to the hasty conclusion that they may be a little, er...dim. This only makes me annoyed with myself afterwards...for not having the patience in trying to understand....which really makes me the stupid one. Often it is just that people have not the same background information that I may have, and are therefore less likely to make the connections due to the missing links. So if they are open to considering the missing links, I will happily engage, but if they aren't....well then I will perhaps consider them a little stupid.

But then, stupidity is just fear, masked.

So really, I should be more understanding. But sometimes I just get impatient...:mad:

And ad nauseum.....it is exhausting :ahh:
 

ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε

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My reaction to stupidity is much like that of a turbojet engine to its ignition switch. At first it's just a quiet whine, then builds into a loud whoosh, and finally a howling roar that sucks people in and chops them up. Alternatively:

Level 0: All systems normal, proceed on task.
Level 1: Logic error detected. Correcting.
Level 2: Unexpected resistance encountered. Restating and clarifying.
Level 3: Resistance is stubborn. Logic combat systems engaged. Emotional shields raised. Detailed argument made.
Level 4: Resistance is fierce. All debate systems online and all emotional energy re-routed to reasoning refrigeration, intuition, and emotional shielding. Scanning for a logic hole to pin opponent with mind-rending cognitive dissonance.
Level 5: Resistance is almost unrelenting. Full throttle, lock and load. Get ready for an all-out war. Switch off intuition and ramp up delivery power at known weak-spots.
Level 6: Unbelievable stupidity detected. MAXIMUM EXTERMINATION LEVEL ACTIVATED. Raise voice and reroute all power to delivery of message.
Level 7: Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war. Eat them alive and rape them dead, then burn their blood-soaked corpse to ashes and annihilate the ashes with antimatter, laughing and screaming in sadistic euphoria as every last trace of my hated enemy is utterly obliterated. THERE WILL BE NOTHING LEFT! AUHAHAHAHA! AUHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!

That's how I deal with stupidity.

-Duxwing

Lol! I love that.
 

Montresor

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So the consensus I'm finding is that these sort of "impossible situations" actually do get you dorks angry! Cool! hahaha

I liked @Polaris answer about missing information being a chief concern in situations like this. I agree completely. Back to my particular scenario, I even tried this approach. Later in the day after work I brought it up again. It went like this...

"So with every compression stroke, the manifold sucks in fresh air and mixes it with fuel in the carburetor, because it is not the gasoline itself that is explosive, but the mixture of gas and air."

"Yeah", he says.

"Bigger engines suck in more air and fuel."

"yeah"

"A 360 is bigger than a 302, of course, (it's 360 cubic inches v. 302), so it draws in more air and fuel with each compression stroke."


"yeah"

"So the 'size of the engine' in cubic inches, is measured by the volume of gas (not gasoline dammit, the state of matter), that is drawn into the block with each stroke."

"NO! You are wrong. I know cars. It's the size of the block! It has nothing to do with how much air it takes in."


"oh ok so explain something to me then ... why are engine sizes also occasionally reported in liters or cubic centimeters? It's obviously a direct conversion so the two terms are related. Let's say the Windsor 302 is a 4.9 L engine, that means that it pulls in 4.9L of fuel/air mixture with each compression stroke, which equates to 302 cubic inches or around 3860cc."

"NO! You are wrong. I know cars man. I'm older than you."

"So what does the 5 L represent then?"

"The amount of oil it takes."
(clearly wrong, so wrong in fact he acted as though he never said it)

"It's just the metric system. It's still just the size of the engine."

"But cubic inches and liters are volumetric measurements ... what volume is being measured exactly"



AND on and on. The more I wanted to flesh it out, the more everybody else wanted me to stop.

The part that makes me angry, beyond the stupidity, is being silenced and stifled because "nobody cares anymore."

Fuck that shit.
 

Valentas

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Usually in life, I use Emerson's idea that every man is somewhat superior to me thus I learn from him. Which is great philosophy for your own well-being and that person's ego haha.

What I do when people don't understand what I'm saying is this:

Me: Do you like the topic I talk about? I know you're interested in many things as I am so what do you think about X?

Him: Well, I don't really know much about this but you may enlighten me.

Me: Okay...blahblahblah. Do you find it interesting?

Him: Yeah, that's quite ...hm...interesting. What exactly does this program must do again?

Me: Explaining again. I sustain my fury only because explaining something to other person will make you more knowledgeable about this subject. It works, I tried it.

If I see any signs a person is loosing interest, I say that we may discuss what he wants to or I just say "So, what did you learn from these ideas?" . If he cannot reply, then I will never talk to that person again unless he can offer some interesting talk to me about his interests. :} In other words, I employ the strategy called silent fury. If I cannot sustain it and it overcomes my level of tolerance, then I try to get away from that person and most of the times that guy/girl would not even understand that I hate him for his stupidity.

And I keep them as friends for future. No one is insulted and everyone is happy.

HOWEVER

Sometimes I can see myself talking and explaining but person cannot get it. Then I think maybe it's my fault that he cannot understand. Einstein said that if you cannot explain a concept to a six-year old, then you don't understand it yourself. Also, there are times when a person seems to get bored and his attention starts to fade. Then, I ask a simple question about stuff I talked a minute ago. It makes person uncomfortable and uneasy and then I see when I waste my time. Otherwise, that person becomes angry if I ask a question about idea I just presented. That means a guy is listening.

In the past, I used to employ strategy "GTFO, if you cannot understand on first explanation". But it does not pay in this world. Thus I employ more tolerant approaches. It pays :)
 

Solitaire U.

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Heh.

Engine displacement is determined by cylinder bore (id) and stroke (length). That's all.

At no time, ever, has c.i/l/cc been commonly understood as "the volume of air/fuel mixture that's sucked into the engine block on every compression stroke, in cubic inches(or liters, or cubic centimeters)"

First of all, I think you actually meant to say 'induction stroke' since that's the one that creates vacuum and 'sucks' air/fuel into the combustion chamber, but whatever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_displacement

Your friend is actually correct in his assertion that displacement is based on "size of the block". Ford's 302w and 351w are built-up form the same block casting. 351 heads will bolt right onto a 302 block; they're that identical. The only (major) differences between the two are that the 351 has a larger cylinder bore and taller deck height. If the deck height of a 302 is say, 8.2 vs. the 351's 9.5, that would equate to a bare block 351 being about an inch taller than a 302. Not much, granted, but it does equate to a 'larger block. Hence, your friend is correct.

Could go into more details about how 'how much air/fuel is sucked into the engine' is determined more by by things like intake setup, valve timing, air/fuel ratios etc. etc. than it is cylinder volume, but it doesn't seem warranted.

I believe you're taking issue and calling the guy stupid based on his over simplified explanation. It is over-simplified, I'll give you that, but yours is incorrect, even if it's plausible in a roundabout way. And it is...a 351 obviously has greater volume than a 302 due to it's bigger bore and longer stroke. In other words, I'm not saying you're wrong; displacement is a measure of the volume of a cylinder, ie; how much air, or fuel, or orange juice it can contain, but that's not the whole story. The numbers'302' and '351' are not understood as 'volume', they are understood as 'size'.

Anyway, IMAO that's a really petty excuse to call someone stupid. I would reserve that designation for someone who doesn't look both ways before crossing a street, or something similar of an undeniably stupid nature.

I could call you stupid for saying "sucked into the engine on every compression stroke", since that's an obviously glaring error, but I'd come off as condescending and petty if I did so. I mean, didn't I? :)
 

Montresor

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@SolitaireU. I appreciate the response I'll check it out again (skimmed on take 1) and post more but I want to remind you that volume and pressure are different concepts.

The cylinder will always be filled with a volume of gas on the downstroke, and the volume will be exactly equal to the volume of the cylinder.

The high precision injection equipment you speak of is good to know about, and you are obviously knowledgeable, and I submit great respect to your post, but at the end of the day the volume never changes. This equipment is specifically built to regulate the pressure.

End.
 

Architect

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So what do you do when people are stupid? In real life. Not on the forum.

Depends on the situation. If they're willing to learn (ht Stripes) then I'm willing to teach, and will enjoy it. If they're obstinate and mean about their stupidity (Creationists) then I view them as vermin - no better than tax collectors and criminals.

Most people fall in between in that they aren't purposefully stupid, but aren't smart or willing enough to entertain a different idea. Those I just ignore as you can't teach a pig to sing; it just wastes your time and annoys the pig.
 

Montresor

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Those I just ignore as you can't teach a pig to sing; it just wastes your time and annoys the pig.

This is the advice I need. At least I am more like a specialist now because we have multiple sites atm so I can stay away from him (and ahead) at all times and plan the builds meself with nobody messing it up.
 

Solitaire U.

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@SolitaireU. I appreciate the response I'll check it out again (skimmed on take 1) and post more but I want to remind you that volume and pressure are different concepts.

The cylinder will always be filled with a volume of gas on the downstroke, and the volume will be exactly equal to the volume of the cylinder.

The high precision injection equipment you speak of is good to know about, and you are obviously knowledgeable, and I submit great respect to your post, but at the end of the day the volume never changes. This equipment is specifically built to regulate the pressure.

End.

Actually, I'm glad you read that, because I severely edited it in the hope of simplification, and also to correct the fact that I was wrong about the 302 and 351 being externally identical. They aren't (see above). Anyway, good luck in your endeavors! :)
 

Polaris

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So the consensus I'm finding is that these sort of "impossible situations" actually do get you dorks angry! Cool! hahaha

I liked @Polaris answer about missing information being a chief concern in situations like this. I agree completely. Back to my particular scenario, I even tried this approach. Later in the day after work I brought it up again. It went like this...

/WAR/

AND on and on. The more I wanted to flesh it out, the more everybody else wanted me to stop.

The part that makes me angry, beyond the stupidity, is being silenced and stifled because "nobody cares anymore."

Fuck that shit.

@Montresor

Oh....dear.

It is interesting because now that I have read your responses and also Solitaire's take on it, it has made me curious to find out more about the problem...haha.

But back to the OP...as I mentioned already, when someone is faced with a barrage of information that they are perhaps missing some links to in order to gain complete understanding of the concept, the reaction can sometimes be that of a cornered animal; as much as there is the acceptance that here is another perspective that is more complete, the stubbornness and fear of losing face in the heat of an argumentative confrontation gets the better of one's rationality; the emotional reaction takes control in order to protect the ego. So it is not that the opposition is lacking the intellectual capacity, it is just a fear of admitting perceived defeat. In this case it may be wise to just take a step back, because it will go to hell, whatever way one approaches the issue.

Or: They could just be completely and utterly convinced that they are right, in which case it becomes a matter of using diplomatic and psychologically intelligent approaches to coming to some sort of mutual agreement through exchange of ideas and facts. Perhaps let the matter rest for a couple of days and then use a friendly approach: "Hey that issue we were discussing, would you mind presenting your ideas again, because I have some ideas I'd like you to hear"...or something akin to that.
 

Magus

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To OP it would depend. I tend not to be that confrontational, so if it is someone with whom I am acquainted I will just politely disagree but not push the point.

If it is a stranger or someone I don't care for I will just ignore it but disassociate myself further from the conversation.

With close friends I will try and call them out, explaining why but still will not push the point too far. That said I come my closest to being 'confrontational' amongst friends.

Generally speaking I have found people make decisions/judgements based on their own subjective criteria, which are only then ad hoc defended by logic/data. People like to think that they are impartial but they almost always are not and even when shown to be wrong will just be dismissive or even react with hostility, especially if you call them in front of a group. Case in point religious people but debating politics and just about anything else will ultimately prove this.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...not-emotions-will-drive-the-decisions-you-mak

http://bigthink.com/experts-corner/...gical-the-neuroscience-behind-decision-making
 

gracious

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In a professional setting if someone challenges my knowledge and I'm confident that I'm right then I'll typically give them one chance to back off.

"Hmmm... Are you sure about that, so&so?"

Meanwhile, I am busy digging up data to disprove their assertion.

Upon finding said data the next sentence goes something like this: "Well, I am looking at document 123456 and it DOES have a blah blah flux capacitor blah blah. You wanna have a look at it? Perhaps I misunderstood your assertion?"
:evil:
 

HDINTP

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So because I think I am patient, carefree and calm I am willing to try help them get out of that however not many of them are willing to learn so I just ignore them (usually). In those times I was having too many problems with myself and was at my "devil mode" I lost my temper and well better not to be around. Let's say it just got evident what I thought about them then.

But since I am at the different level for a while now it is not problem to help or ignore.
 

Brontosaurie

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if it's not about something i've thought deeply about, i'll assume they're as right as i am and try to understand. if on the other hand it is, i'll be relentless and totally unfeeling. especially in text format since this requires less motor skills and less active presence.
 

TheScornedReflex

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At first I will attempt a correction of the error. If that fails I will just tell them they are stupid. Or I will think it. Mostly though, I just tell them.
 

kvothe27

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Typically, I'm too detached to care to correct people.

A lot of the time, people's opinions and ideas are tied up into their identities. This means that when I try to argue with them, I'm more often than not just arguing over their identities. This isn't worth it to me. It involves too much emotion.

When it's just factual knowledge, I'll just look it up, point it out to them, and and settle it that way. That way, we don't have to rely on our error-prone memories. If it's a difference in conceptual understanding, I'll usually point them to the book from which I learned the information. I have no interest in teaching and I'm very bad at translating my highly visual understanding of concepts into words. I also have a strong mistrust of verbal learning anyway, since I don't learn well that way. I learn by reading and through experience.
 
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In response to the OP: Ignore them. Stupid is allowed. The output isn't worth the input.

Now, as for how I respond... They'd best have peer-reviewed sources :D I'll usually attempt to make the correction and explain myself once, twice if they're semi-important/respected, and then ignore and express disinterest in the subject if they keep windbagging.
 

Montresor

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To OP it would depend. I tend not to be that confrontational, so if it is someone with whom I am acquainted I will just politely disagree but not push the point.

If it is a stranger or someone I don't care for I will just ignore it but disassociate myself further from the conversation.

With close friends I will try and call them out, explaining why but still will not push the point too far. That said I come my closest to being 'confrontational' amongst friends.

Generally speaking I have found people make decisions/judgements based on their own subjective criteria, which are only then ad hoc defended by logic/data. People like to think that they are impartial but they almost always are not and even when shown to be wrong will just be dismissive or even react with hostility, especially if you call them in front of a group. Case in point religious people but debating politics and just about anything else will ultimately prove this.

I find that when I try to detach from the conversation I wind up stewing. That's sort of what the OP is about. I try to detach, but when the opposing party keeps dragging you back in it gets a little emotional. Some folks need to have the last word and you can give it to them, but some people don't realize that the last word should be just that: the last word.

Clearly Ti is detached by definition, while Fi might have a little more fat and less meat in the "subjective criteria". I like how you point out that judgements are then only defended ad hoc.

In a professional setting if someone challenges my knowledge and I'm confident that I'm right then I'll typically give them one chance to back off.

"Hmmm... Are you sure about that, so&so?"

Meanwhile, I am busy digging up data to disprove their assertion.

Upon finding said data the next sentence goes something like this: "Well, I am looking at document 123456 and it DOES have a blah blah flux capacitor blah blah. You wanna have a look at it? Perhaps I misunderstood your assertion?"
:evil:

hehe. ^Again with the anger for me. Always with the anger.

I'm noticing a trend here. These replies all have a detached air to them. I'm looking for feeling in a place where there is none.

That said, your first approach, is like mine. In a professional setting, I give a person 1 or 2 chances to get their facts straight and augment their proposition, while simultaneously scanning the situation for my own take on it, prepping myself for discussion. Just like you said.

I wonder if Se puts one at an advantage or disadvantage in this phase.

So because I think I am patient, carefree and calm I am willing to try help them get out of that however not many of them are willing to learn so I just ignore them (usually). In those times I was having too many problems with myself and was at my "devil mode" I lost my temper and well better not to be around. Let's say it just got evident what I thought about them then.

But since I am at the different level for a while now it is not problem to help or ignore.

I also find I am generally patient, carefree, and calm, until people start acting stupid. Then, if it affects me, it does so in such a way that I am apt to lose my temper as well.

if it's not about something i've thought deeply about, i'll assume they're as right as i am and try to understand. if on the other hand it is, i'll be relentless and totally unfeeling. especially in text format since this requires less motor skills and less active presence.

Wise words! Relentless and totally unfeeling is apparently tough for me. How I ever thought I was INTP is beyond me...

I was cautioned later on by these guys to "not take things so personally". Pish posh. It's not just about the engine talk it's everything, including how things go at work.

Montresor

Oh....dear.

It is interesting because now that I have read your responses and also Solitaire's take on it, it has made me curious to find out more about the problem...haha.

But back to the OP...as I mentioned already, when someone is faced with a barrage of information that they are perhaps missing some links to in order to gain complete understanding of the concept, the reaction can sometimes be that of a cornered animal; as much as there is the acceptance that here is another perspective that is more complete, the stubbornness and fear of losing face in the heat of an argumentative confrontation gets the better of one's rationality; the emotional reaction takes control in order to protect the ego. So it is not that the opposition is lacking the intellectual capacity, it is just a fear of admitting perceived defeat. In this case it may be wise to just take a step back, because it will go to hell, whatever way one approaches the issue. Ding!

Or: They could just be completely and utterly convinced that they are right, in which case it becomes a matter of using diplomatic and psychologically intelligent approaches to coming to some sort of mutual agreement through exchange of ideas and facts. Perhaps let the matter rest for a couple of days and then use a friendly approach: "Hey that issue we were discussing, would you mind presenting your ideas again, because I have some ideas I'd like you to hear"...or something akin to that.

@Polaris

This I must reply to, since you explicitly mentioned your arousal.

I am not sure what happened with this thread seemed like there was some moderating or editing I don't know but one of my posts seems to be missing ...

I think that the first thing that happened is some folks took offense to the wanton use of the word stupid.

Some folks might have preconceived notions of my own stupidity.

The way I worded it in the thread is wrong and I got called out. Not sure why it's been anticipated that I don't admit when I am wrong. That was not fair of him to say. If I am proven wrong then I will admit it, always. Stubbornness in the face of defeat is not something I ascribe to personally.

The general principles I argue - I continue to stand behind.

It is a noble thing to do to play the devil's advocate.

Volume is volume regardless of pressure. However, 350 cubic inches (~5.4 L) of pressurized air could really be closer to 500 L of air at 1 atm. To say it's the amount of air that "gets sucked in" is false information (as Synthetix put it, clever as it was) and I'm willing to admit my own shortcomings. To say it's the amount of air/fuel mixture that is drawn into the block on each stroke is accurate in the sense that at bottom-dead-center, the volume will be equal to the "size of the block".

I felt the man was stupid for being so dismissive of everything I said, without even contemplating what I could possibly mean. Not necessarily for being wrong. In fact, I never felt he was wrong at all. That's one of the main points in the OP. If somebody is openly dismissive of another like that, in an argument, self-referencing for validation, then nothing gets talked about and the whole situation is stupid. In times like these, I tend to think the other party is, well, stupid!

He was wrong in the purest sense: the "size of the block" would most likely be reported in kilograms, but if it were to be cubic inches, it would obviously be the volume of cast iron/aluminum that was used in the manufacture of the block - NOT the amount that was cored out. But hey, who argues points like that?

Lastly, you mention a diplomatic and psychologically intelligent approach. I also try to employ that tactic. I drop the idea for a while and then bring it back up again when one is more open minded. Doesn't always work. Did not work with the individual in question. Must be lacking psycho intelligence.

At first I will attempt a correction of the error. If that fails I will just tell them they are stupid. Or I will think it. Mostly though, I just tell them.

I wish I could stay true to this, but a lot of people in this world value social harmony and feelings. Calling somebody outright stupid is apt to open a huge can of worms from Fi and Fe-types alike.

Instead I would rather have them see for themselves they are stupid. That seems to be in-line with some other replies to this thread.

Typically, I'm too detached to care to correct people.

A lot of the time, people's opinions and ideas are tied up into their identities. This means that when I try to argue with them, I'm more often than not just arguing over their identities. This isn't worth it to me. It involves too much emotion.

When it's just factual knowledge, I'll just look it up, point it out to them, and and settle it that way. That way, we don't have to rely on our error-prone memories. If it's a difference in conceptual understanding, I'll usually point them to the book from which I learned the information. I have no interest in teaching and I'm very bad at translating my highly visual understanding of concepts into words. I also have a strong mistrust of verbal learning anyway, since I don't learn well that way. I learn by reading and through experience.

I like this post too!!! So much to reply to.

You're right about the worthlessness of arguing with somebody's identity. It gets too emotional and there's nothing to gain. This I find is more relevant when it comes to how one performs their duties at work, say for an example. However, the individual in question, whom I am calling stupid, MOST definitely weaves his love of cars and engines very deeply into his identity, so what you said is entirely relevant in this case as well.

Factual knowledge can always be looked up, but then you can still find yourself running in circles because of the "I don't care anymore" fallback. That being said, I was damn close to looking up the subject matter at hand there in the truck.

In response to the OP: Ignore them. Stupid is allowed. The output isn't worth the input.

Now, as for how I respond... They'd best have peer-reviewed sources :D I'll usually attempt to make the correction and explain myself once, twice if they're semi-important/respected, and then ignore and express disinterest in the subject if they keep windbagging.

Hmm. That's sort of how the other party approached the situation actually ... quite.

Peer reviewed sources mean nothing to types like this. We're talking about somebody who dropped out of high school in grade 10 because he thought that he would be best off to start earning an income sooner on in life.

Stupid because his mind isn't willing to analyze the concept of a combustion engine from such a theoretical standpoint. "It's the size of the block dammit, and that's all you need to know about it!" Huh? Size of what? And how?

Is it just me or do many of the replies in this thread (yours included), also Synthetix, have a deeper message? Sort of like ... come on now, you're the one who was being stupid here ...
 

Solitaire U.

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Peer reviewed sources mean nothing to types like this. We're talking about somebody who dropped out of high school in grade 10 because he thought that he would be best off to start earning an income sooner on in life.

Whoa now. Why didn't you tell us this in the OP? The guy dropped out of sacred learning institutions in 10th grade to start earning a living, so therefore he MUST be stupid!

And yet, he's your co-worker. How many years of formal education do you have over this guy? Two? Four? Six? So why are you still at his level? Shouldn't you be his boss by now?

Very weighty judgment there. You don't know this guy's reasons. Maybe his father beat him and he had to move out to escape a shitty home life. Maybe he got a girl pregnant and had to support the kid. Maybe he wasn't willing to deal with all the pin-up social popularity crap and other plastic high-school accessories. Maybe he was bored to tears due to being too intelligent to be interested in high school, or perhaps his interests (mechanical perhaps) simply led him elsewhere.

Or perhaps he simply made his decision early about where he wanted to go in life, and higher education didn't factor into it. That decision may have been based on a lot of intelligently considered factors, like whether or not the opportunity for college even existed for him once he graduated hs. It doesn't exist for all of us, you realize.

To buy into your assertion is to concede that a linear path of formal education is the only route to a successful life. Maybe it's true...or better yet...Is it true? You should know, right? Regardless, success and contentment are two very different things. Credulous of me to judge, but I'd give the guy credit for having the courage to forge his own path, if nothing else.

Stupid because his mind isn't willing to analyze the concept of a combustion engine from such a theoretical standpoint. "It's the size of the block dammit, and that's all you need to know about it!" Huh? Size of what? And how?
And what a theoretical standpoint it is! Are you sniffing out some kind of over-arching conclusion that INTPs possess superior intelligence based on their proclivity for theoretical analysis? Ok, fine (though I adamantly disagree), but then be prepared to declare the vast majority of humanity, their practical applications, and their preference to maintain 'size' and 'volume' as synonyms as 'stupid'. You'll probably need wings to stay above all that, though.

SU
 

Solitaire U.

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P.S. Would you mind answering a few simple questions so that I may arrive at some severely contrived conclusions about your stupidity potential?

How old are you?

Level of formal education?

Current employment?

Salary?

Wife, kids?

Thank you. No offense intended. I'm just field-testing a little theory I'm brewing that I can articulate a convincing argument to declare anyone stupid based on the above criteria.

SU
 

Montresor

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Whoa now. Why didn't you tell us this in the OP? The guy dropped out of sacred learning institutions in 10th grade to start earning a living, so therefore he MUST be stupid!
I can not believe you led off with this. This is an invalid conclusion that nobody drew except for you. Please amp it up if you want to keep this going.

And yet, he's your co-worker. How many years of formal education do you have over this guy? Two? Four? Six? So why are you still at his level? Shouldn't you be his boss by now?

I have six years of formal education over him. I do not work in a formal environment. I work for a framing contractor. It's a small operation, we build houses, and presently there are only three employees (him, myself, and a labourer who is on vacation). I was hired a week before him, but in the world of framing - quality, exactness, mathematical prowess, and formal education take second place to pure years experience and speed, which count for everything. He has six years of framing experience on me and earns $2 more and neither one of us is the other's boss. In fact, I keep the fuck away from him because he is deliberately antagonistic at work and plainly exhibits passive aggressive behaviour.

Every single dispute we have is settled on the basis of his "years experience". He gets away with it over and over and abuses it. He is 9 years older than me. Is this starting to sound stupid yet?? Or are you going to put words in my mouth again?


Oh? What's that? You can't figure out that angle? Oh ok I'll get it. Just subtract one from the other and then subtract that from 90. Oh? That didn't make sense? Oh well just use your ten years experience to figure it out then.

Very weighty judgment there. You don't know this guy's reasons. Maybe his father beat him and he had to move out to escape a shitty home life. Maybe he got a girl pregnant and had to support the kid. Maybe he wasn't willing to deal with all the pin-up social popularity crap and other plastic high-school accessories. Maybe he was bored to tears due to being too intelligent to be interested in high school, or perhaps his interests (mechanical perhaps) simply led him elsewhere.

Or perhaps he simply made his decision early about where he wanted to go in life, and higher education didn't factor into it. That decision may have been based on a lot of intelligently considered factors, like whether or not the opportunity for college even existed for him once he graduated hs. It doesn't exist for all of us, you realize.

To buy into your assertion is to concede that a linear path of formal education is the only route to a successful life. Maybe it's true...or better yet...Is it true? You should know, right? Regardless, success and contentment are two very different things. Credulous of me to judge, but I'd give the guy credit for having the courage to forge his own path, if nothing else.

A lot of the preliminary points you make in this quote stem from your misinterpretation of what I said, where you assumed I call him stupid because he dropped out in grade 10. I did no such thing and certainly do not feel that way.

I only argue that his education level prevents him from considering the weight and importance of information that is peer reviewed and published. He is as dismissive of that as he is of anything else. The man references himself only. Would you call that stupid? Would you call it stupid if I did it?

And what a theoretical standpoint it is! Are you sniffing out some kind of over-arching conclusion that INTPs possess superior intelligence based on their proclivity for theoretical analysis? Ok, fine (though I adamantly disagree), but then be prepared to declare the vast majority of humanity, their practical applications, and their preference to maintain 'size' and 'volume' as synonyms as 'stupid'. You'll probably need wings to stay above all that, though.

Sarcasm is cute for sure. Also, I am not INTP, clearly, as I mention over and over how angry I felt over the situation.

I also maintain that size and volume are synonyms. In fact, that is the premise of my whole entire argument, summed up in five words. He says it's the size of the block, I say it's the volume it holds. I say we're both right, he says I'm wrong. Stupid???


P.S. Would you mind answering a few simple questions so that I may arrive at some severely contrived conclusions about your stupidity potential?

How old are you?

Level of formal education?

Current employment?

Salary?

Wife, kids?

Thank you. No offense intended. I'm just field-testing a little theory I'm brewing that I can articulate a convincing argument to declare anyone stupid based on the above criteria.

PS Fuck you and get fucked.
 

Solitaire U.

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HAHA!! Not the first time I've been complimented for my cuteness. Glad you noticed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5IQnQhzMSI

Ok, so apparently you have a lot of pent-up aggression towards this guy. Aggression that seems unrelated to the 'size vs. volume' issue. Why don't you just call him stupid to his face and let the fist fight commence?

"...where you assumed I call him stupid because he dropped out in grade 10. I did no such thing and certainly do not feel that way."

Own up or shut up!

"Would you call that stupid? Would you call it stupid if I did it?"

I wouldn't call either one of you stupid. I'd say you both have irreconcilable differences, but that doesn't make him stupid, only different.

Fuck you and get fucked.

Isn't this what the guy basically said to you? Stupid is as stupid does.
 

Montresor

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I figured the fact that he was so dismissive of what I was saying, while referencing only himself, and generally the fact that he is overtly nonchalant and dismissive of anything presented as fact, was (is) altogether stupid.

Nothing is fact unless he personally verifies it.

This wouldn't be a problem if he was able to explain something at a somewhat advanced level. But to stand so firmly behind such a broad sweeping statement as to say it's the "size of the block" and ignore all other considerations, is stupid in its own right because it's simply not descriptive enough.

At least you were able to tell me why I was wrong about the engine. Duxwing was stupid for complimenting you on "blowing my argument apart" because it's absolutely not relevant to the overall context of the thread. Over half the things you said were projective, subjective, speculative, and not fair. Maybe that makes YOU stupid.

I hold everybody to the same standard.

He is not stupid for dropping out at grade 10 he is stupid for acting like he knows everything after dropping out at grade 10.

Stupid people often truly believe you are wrong before you even open your mouth.

You imply that pent-up aggression is clouding my judgement but I make a regular habit of explosive discharges to avoid storing any pent-up aggression. You are confused. I became angry because of how he was acting at that particular time.

You won't accept my story as evidence of his stupidity in its own right so for you I made an exception and went deeper into the details. I still feel the story does display stupidity in its own right (for which party is yet to be determined).

And lastly - why do you know so much about irreconcilable differences? You've been on my case with your little quips since I joined this forum. I even politely asked you to stop, NOT encouraged you to throw your weight around in a field where your knowledge is clearly superior in order to belittle me and have it look like I am calling people stupid who don't deserve it. This is why I say fuck you. He never said that to me btw... You're a bully. A god damn bully.

I was happy you replied to this thread as I was sure you would reaffirm what I said (in some way) not shit all over it. I assumed from your persona that you're a car-guy. Instead you decided to argue his standpoint and I must take it personally because it is plain to see that my assessment of the engine displacement was in fact more accurate than his, even if neither was truly correct.
 

Duxwing

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I figured the fact that he was so dismissive of what I was saying, while referencing only himself, and generally the fact that he is overtly nonchalant and dismissive of anything presented as fact, was (is) altogether stupid.

Nothing is fact unless he personally verifies it.

This wouldn't be a problem if he was able to explain something at a somewhat advanced level. But to stand so firmly behind such a broad sweeping statement as to say it's the "size of the block" and ignore all other considerations, is stupid in its own right because it's simply not descriptive enough.

At least you were able to tell me why I was wrong about the engine. Duxwing was stupid for complimenting you on "blowing my argument apart" because it's absolutely not relevant to the overall context of the thread. Over half the things you said were projective, subjective, speculative, and not fair. Maybe that makes YOU stupid.

Actually, he was pretty much bang on given what you'd said:

We're talking about somebody who dropped out of high school in grade 10 because he thought that he would be best off to start earning an income sooner on in life.

The implication in the statement above is that he is stupid because he dropped out. Solitaire jumped on that hole in your logic like a bear on a hiker, and you got mauled.

I hold everybody to the same standard.

He is not stupid for dropping out at grade 10 he is stupid for acting like he knows everything after dropping out at grade 10.

You really changed your tune after that mauling.

Stupid people often truly believe you are wrong before you even open your mouth.

You imply that pent-up aggression is clouding my judgement but I make a regular habit of explosive discharges to avoid storing any pent-up aggression. You are confused. I became angry because of how he was acting at that particular time.

Really? You said yourself that the conversation (paraphrased) "wasn't just about the car, but about everything in [your] relationship with him".

You won't accept my story as evidence of his stupidity in its own right so for you I made an exception and went deeper into the details. I still feel the story does display stupidity in its own right (for which party is yet to be determined).

Did he ever say so? No. Don't put words into his mouth.

And lastly - why do you know so much about irreconcilable differences?

He's been a teacher for quite while now. Imagine how many conflicts he must manage.

You've been on my case with your little quips since I joined this forum.

Need it have been personal? Proxy has been "on my case" regarding economics since I joined this forum, but I know that it's nothing personal; moreover, I like him for doing so.

I even politely asked you to stop,

That changes matters a bit, but remember, his actions needn't be personal.

NOT encouraged you to throw your weight around in a field where your knowledge is clearly superior

I understand that you're a Fi-dom and take things as personally as INTP's do logically, but you really need to take a step back on this point. You made an argument about cars, and Solitaire, knowing more about them than you, pointed out its flaws; taking this as a personal attack, you tried to guilt trip him with the quoted statement above. Not only would I be inclined to say that Solitaire has the right to "throw his weight around" in terms of making knowledge claims after having learned so much, but I also think that you, knowing that he knows more about them and could comment easily, oughtn't have been so conclusive in your judgment. Imagine me, trying to make an argument about physics and seeing Architect shoot it down: would I be upset? A little. But I'd also think to myself, as you should, "Perhaps I should have acknowledged that I lack education, experience, and expertise in the field about which I was arguing."

in order to belittle me and have it look like I am calling people stupid who don't deserve it.


Again, you're taking this far too personally--yes, I know, never say that to a Fi-dom--and suffering for it. You've said yourself that you've been trying to find feeling in a place where it isn't; acknowledge your conclusions and apply them to the situation at hand.

This is why I say fuck you. He never said that to me btw... You're a bully. A god damn bully.

He's no bully. He's just a guy who knows his stuff and blew your argument to pieces. You, on the other hand, neglected to consider your lack of the three E's (Education, Expertise, and Experience) in the field of automotive mechanics, became emotionally attached to your thesis without having stated so, and then had the gall to become angry when Solitaire ripped it to pieces, as he should have, considering that making a statement on this board means letting it be subject to skepticism and scrutiny. If nothing else, remember the sting of this blunder and let it be a lesson to you: don't get attached to your ideas.

I was happy you replied to this thread as I was sure you would reaffirm what I said (in some way) not shit all over it.

See? You're not looking for anyone's opinion. You just want affirmation--and perhaps sympathy. Heck, I probably would have given both of those to you (not to mention my (in)famous e-hug) but now I see you in a different light, and I'm repulsed: how can you be so hurt when someone analyzes your ideas and points out their flaws?

I assumed from your persona that you're a car-guy. Instead you decided to argue his standpoint and I must take it personally because it is plain to see that my assessment of the engine displacement was in fact more accurate than his, even if neither was truly correct.

He took your co-worker's side because your phrasing implied that you believed drop-outs to be necessarily less intelligent than their more highly educated peers. And no, you needn't take his point personally: he would have done that to anyone, just like I would have, had I noticed that hole in your argument.

-Duxwing

P.S. You're an ISFP. You see things personally, and that can work wonders in other settings: around here, Fi is usually seventh or eighth (or, in rarer cases, third or sixth) on posters' function stacks, so you needn't worry about vendettas and bullying for the most part.
 

BloodCountess88

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I laugh, turn around and go.

Seriously, you can't argue with a stupid person.


Does it affect me? YES. It really does.


I was once explaining about the Norse gods and the history of face painting (and how it got introduced to metal) and stupid ugly bimbo dismissed my argument by saying "Come on, you are reading too much into it! Unbelievable!". I didn't say anything after that. At the end of the semester, I got a 120% on the class while she failed it. Fair enough :).

I have issues with anger, I'm too passive. Not passive aggressive, I'm just passive I dislike feeling emotions. I rationalize them and contain them, then eventually I forget about it. Although I saw her years after, I look WAY better than her (after having children, no make up). She was always hostile against me for little to no reason, so I suspect jealousy since she dressed up and cared a lot about her appearance and I used to show up in T-shirts and pj's. It felt like a bit of a victory on my part to be really honest.

But then, being the passive person I am, I stopped caring and went on with my day. I guess that's how I see stupid people, they aren't worth the energy.


Idiocy is an act most of the time. I'm sure there are plenty of things the ugly chick and the stupid dude are great at and aren't stupid/ignorant/idiots about. However, in those instances they acted like idiots.
 
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Peer reviewed sources mean nothing to types like this. We're talking about somebody who dropped out of high school in grade 10 because he thought that he would be best off to start earning an income sooner on in life.

Is it just me or do many of the replies in this thread (yours included), also Synthetix, have a deeper message? Sort of like ... come on now, you're the one who was being stupid here ...
The rub with peer-review is that it allows you to respond in a manner that invites debate into friendly territory, which allows you to unleash your full arsenal and establish your merit repeatedly. It also works better if you have access to a whiteboard and take up a more teacher-like attitude instead of a hostile one. I pity the fool who questions the functions of wetland ecology :evil:
Sources basically invite him to do this:
Nothing is fact unless he personally verifies it.
And then once he verifies it, never let him forget it...

There's no hidden message in mine except me admitting that I don't follow my own advice :D
 

Mia

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Let them be, watch the consequences and laugh. Oh and silently judge them.

Just enjoy their stupidity, it's real life comedy.
 

Montresor

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@Duxwing

The bulk of your post is quite true.

Want to point out 3 or 4 things:

1. I never became emotionally attached to my argument per se; it may appear that way, but you're over simplifying it by stating that. I become emotionally attached to the process of arguing logically. Now, you may think I suddenly lost all ability for logic because I am open and honest about being Fi-dominant, but in the spirit of this thread, that's STUPID!

It is not logical to invalidate my claims just by proving that I was a little off in my own definition. The reason why, is that it's not really on topic!!! If I posted a thread trying to educate people about how cars work, then it will be open season on little errors.

You accuse me of simply looking for affirmation, not a conversation, and that is not true either. I want to know if this caliber of stupidity makes INTPs as angry as it does me. The point of telling the story is to illustrate the caliber of stupidity. It's not about cars.

2. It does not matter that he "blew" my argument apart, because in my eyes he really didn't. He used shock and awe tactics interwoven with condescension and deception. Now I am not debating that there are clearly flaws in the way I present the auto engine, and when faced with a learned individual, it is clearly a very basic and over-simplified explanation. That said, that was never the point of the thread!

Never called him stupid for being "wrong", that's for sure, because he wasn't really.

Never called him stupid for dropping out.

Here is a list of Solitaire U.s inaccurate perceptions of my posts:

I believe you're taking issue and calling the guy stupid based on his over simplified explanation.
Your friend is actually correct in his assertion that displacement is based on "size of the block".
haha this is what I mean by deception. His assertion is that displacement IS the size of the block. It has no meaning in itself. It does not stand alone as a meaningful value in that context.

Not much, granted, but it does equate to a 'larger block'. Hence, your friend is correct.
More of the same, more of the same. Nobody ever made the point (him or I or anybody) that the size of the block doesn't increase (somewhat) proportionally with the displacement demands. Wow he's really blowing me apart isn't he?

yours is incorrect, even if it's plausible in a roundabout way. And it is...a 351 obviously has greater volume than a 302 due to it's bigger bore and longer stroke. In other words, I'm not saying you're wrong; displacement is a measure of the volume of a cylinder, ie; how much air, or fuel, or orange juice it can contain, but that's not the whole story.
Super work here. Even Duxwing the super INTP doesn't find logical errors in this post. Maybe you are the Fi. This is all the evidence I need right here. What's more, is this is basically what I was trying to tell the fella in the first place. This is exactly the line of thought that I was trying to explain in the car that was totally rejected in favour of, uh, STUPIDITY.

Haha ok now this is fun. Later on, the INTP teacher gives me this bit of grief:

The numbers'302' and '351' are not understood as 'volume', they are understood as 'size'.

AND

be prepared to declare the vast majority of humanity, their practical applications, and their preference to maintain 'size' and 'volume' as synonyms as 'stupid'.
OH! WHAT'S THIS!? A-NOTHER CONTRADICTION!? Oh well Duxwing has your back Solitaire so it's all good.


3. I never implied or stated that he was stupid for dropping out. The next person who takes that shit out of context gets a boot in the arse. He's likely to dismiss and ignore peer-reviewed sources because he dropped out, and that makes him stupid. Can you not see the difference?

You (collective, plural) can please stop putting these sort of words in my mouth. If you can't interpret the meaning behind why I call the man stupid then you're prone to coming up with your own ideas, which I'm not interested in defending against.

Duxwing, I would appreciate it if you could show the respect to look at every side of the issue and not try to have me see how wrong I am for being wrong, until you have truly considered every aspect. Can you do that? Perhaps you have jumped to a conclusion yourself that you need to manually override.
 
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Montresor

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@Duxwing (again)

Upon re-reading your post, I have decided to play your game.

We're talking about somebody who dropped out of high school in grade 10 because he thought that he would be best off to start earning an income sooner on in life.

The implication in the statement above is that he is stupid because he dropped out. Solitaire jumped on that hole in your logic like a bear on a hiker, and you got mauled.

Ah, but if you look closer, you will see I was replying to the habitat doctor. (< btw I dislike it when you do this)

Therefore, the implication was misinterpreted, and the logical hole does not exist, therefore Solitaire U. and Duxwing are acting in the most illogical manner by fixating on the comment and continually taking it out of context to add fodder to their posts.

Stupid people often truly believe you are wrong before you even open your mouth.

You imply that pent-up aggression is clouding my judgement but I make a regular habit of explosive discharges to avoid storing any pent-up aggression. You are confused. I became angry because of how he was acting at that particular time.

Really? You said yourself that the conversation (paraphrased) "wasn't just about the car, but about everything in [your] relationship with him".

No I haven't. Show me where. I just re-read every post I made and I don't remember saying that, or anything remotely close that could be justifiably paraphrased as that. Oh, but forgive me for accusing you of putting words in my mouth.

NOT encouraged you to throw your weight around in a field where your knowledge is clearly superior

I understand that you're a Fi-dom and take things as personally as INTP's do logically, but you really need to take a step back on this point. You made an argument about cars, and Solitaire, knowing more about them than you, pointed out its flaws; taking this as a personal attack, you tried to guilt trip him with the quoted statement above. Not only would I be inclined to say that Solitaire has the right to "throw his weight around" in terms of making knowledge claims after having learned so much, but I also think that you, knowing that he knows more about them and could comment easily, oughtn't have been so conclusive in your judgment. Imagine me, trying to make an argument about physics and seeing Architect shoot it down: would I be upset? A little. But I'd also think to myself, as you should, "Perhaps I should have acknowledged that I lack education, experience, and expertise in the field about which I was arguing."

1. I did not make an argument about cars, I made an argument about people. My argument about cars is simply meant to augment and clarify the stupidity, to add context to the perspective.

2. Solitaire does know more about cars, and he is free to post whatever he likes about them. What's more, is he helped me recognize that the gaseous mixture in the engine is pressurized so it really is over-simplifying to state the volume of the engine equates to the volume of the air that is sucked in at 1 atm. That being said, when the engine is full of air it's full of air and there is a fixed amount of space for that air to occupy. It is the size of the cylinder that has been bored out and it happens to be representative of a VOLUME because we're working with GAS. It's a pity that he couldn't just reaffirm this bit of information because it's fucking accurate. Instead he had to argue it into a contradiction that so far has gone unnoticed (prior to my last post).

3. It was a personal attack. Sorry Duxwing, but it was. I will continue to take it personally. My intention was not to guilt him for arguing with me, it was to guilt him for making it personal. He took it to a higher level.

4. Finally, back to the cars again. (why o why?) Fine. PERHAPS I SHOULD HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED THAT I LACK EDUCATION, EXPERIENCE, and EXPERTISE in the field about which I was arguing with one of my PEERS.

Allow me to interject a little more context. I was in a car with co-workers and one of them announced he doesn't understand what the "numbers mean" in an engine. So you tell me, Duxwing, which answer is more appropriate?:

a. It's the size of the block
b. It's the volume of air/fuel that is drawn in to the block for compression and combustion on every stroke.

Let's go with answer a because Solitaire states over and over that it is more correct than answer b.

Does the original inquirer have a better understanding of engines, now that he knows the 302 means the "size of the block"? Yes, obviously, a much better understanding has come from this valuable information here.

I hope you're picking up on the sarcasm.

See? You're not looking for anyone's opinion. You just want affirmation--and perhaps sympathy. Heck, I probably would have given both of those to you (not to mention my (in)famous e-hug) but now I see you in a different light, and I'm repulsed: how can you be so hurt when someone analyzes your ideas and points out their flaws?

Get bent you wouldn't know Fi if it jumped out and slapped you in the face.

The thread is about my coworker being a stupid person for referencing himself only, considering himself an expert with no backing, being arrogant and dismissive of anything other people try to say, assuming people are wrong before they even speak, saying "no" before contemplating what was said, and generally not listening at all.

I took it personally because he (SOLITAIRE) decided that instead, I was arguing he (WORK GUY) is stupid because he made a weak argument about cars and dropped out of school. Solitaire did this because he's a god damn bully. Solitaire has been on me since I joined this forum (not a lot, it's not harassment). He's only said a few things (3 maybe) but I have found them to be hurtful, and when I approached him and asked him to take a new perspective, he denied on the basis of credulousness. I can not believe he is a teacher. I would never submit my children to that man, even if he was teaching a mechanics class.

He took your co-worker's side because your phrasing implied that you believed drop-outs to be necessarily less intelligent than their more highly educated peers. And no, you needn't take his point personally: he would have done that to anyone, just like I would have, had I noticed that hole in your argument.

Anybody in the world would have done that, had I actually made that assertion, and if my argument truly did contain that HOLE. This is foolish.
 

Solitaire U.

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a. It's the size of the block
b. It's the volume of air/fuel that is drawn in to the block for compression and combustion on every stroke.


a. is definitely correct; simplified, but correct.

b. is theoretically correct, but it is not correct in a practical context, as not all of that area equates to air/fuel volume in a practical application!. Dead space, pressure fluctuations, turbulence, imprecise metering, or metering tuned for a specific result, such as fuel economy, high torque at low rpm (such as needed by a truck towing a trailer, or a 4x4 climbing a hill), adequate heat dissipation at extremely high rpm (such as needed by a super speedway Nascar or Indy racing engine for sustained operation at or near its rpm limit)...these and other variables are what determine "the amount of air/fuel that's sucked into the engine". Some of these variables are controllable (yay), others are as yet not (ie: turbulence, boo).

Your explanation is as over-simplified as his. You do not attempt to account, or even acknowledge as existing, any of these factors. Regardless, it's rather a hollow argument, as, explained from your point of view, engine displacement figures merely represent the amount of volume that is available.

Remember, 351 heads will bolt right up to a 302 block. In the old days of the 289, another long-discontinued engine from the same family (it's an old family), swapping 302 heads onto a 289 block was an extremely popular modification. Every third 289 Mustang in California was running 302 heads back in the mid-70's. Why? To achieve a higher compression ratio. You can change cam timing (with a hotter camshaft), install larger valves, modify air intakes, install a higher cfm carburetor (or, nowadays, higher rate injectors), like like a 650 cfm in place of the stock 450 cfm, to increase or decrease air/fuel volume in a cylinder. What is cfm? CUBIC FEET OF AIR PER MINUTE. Ah...it's variable! You don't seem able or willing to acknowledge that.

If you decide to modify your 351, 351 CI is the gross volume you have to work with when you set out. If you go overboard with say, an 850 cfm Holly double pumper carburetor, you're going to have issues due to an overly rich a/f. In other words, you can fit more air/fuel into a cylinder than what was intended, but it isn't going to compress and detonate efficiently. Remember, air/fuel is compressible; it can be compressed via vacuum as well as by the piston on the compression stroke.

Anyway, on an engine that is running too fat (rich), soot and deposits from incompletely burned fuel will build up in the combustion chambers, which will cause all kinds of issues; increased valve clearances, fouled spark plugs, glowing deposits on combustion chamber surfaces and piston tops, which will eventually cause pitting and even possibly melt a hole in a piston. Also, glowing deposits can result in detonation; premature combustion of the air/fuel before the piston reaches tdc (top dead center) due to glowing deposits and excessive heat in a cylinder that is running too rich.

It's a common mistake I've seen a lot of rodders make on the assumption that 'bigger is better'. They throw on a hot cam, bolt on the largest cfm carb/intake setup they can find and then burn a piston or valve 5000 miles later. Aggressive mods like that are intended for overbored blocks and milled heads, but I've seen guys do it to the 3512v smogger engines in their mother's 77' Ford LTD in an afternoon, fire it up, and then ask "Why is all that black smoke coming out of the tailpipe?" :)

Or you can go the other way. Say you have a sticking or slow intake valve on cylinder #1. The timing on this valve is out of sync; it's slow and restricting flow to that cylinder. Now your problem is an overly lean (that's what it's called, but it equates to "not enough") condition. That will result in pre-ignition, detonation, and 'engine knock' due to that piston being weak on its downward stroke due to insufficient combustive force. It can't keep up with the other cylinders, which puts undue stress on rod bearings, rods, and crank bearings. If left untreated, bent rods and spun bearings could eventually result.

In the late 70's and early 80's, pre-ignition became a common issue on US-built engines as manufacturers were forced to start lowering compression ratios to meet federal emissions standards, and avoid 'gas guzzler' penalties. This is what accelerated development of fuel injection systems for gasoline engines. Closed, pressurized system allows for more precise metering and higher efficiency. Highly atomized fuel creates a more 'combustible' air/fuel mixture.

Wow. So now, go check your 'peer-reviewed' sources to see if I am correct. I could provide you links but hell with that...do your own research. Now, assuming I'm right, what have we learned?

Ah...the available volume of a cylinder is not an accurate determinant of how much air/fuel it uses. It is merely a gross rating of how much potential volume is available. Some of the variables, like turbulence, have yet to be completely eradicated through controls (due to their random chaotic nature, it seems). Other variables can be altered, for better or worse, via modification of intake, injection, and other components.

Hence, your argument is as over-simplified as the other guy's, as well as being founded upon an incorrect assumption. Maybe you didn't intend it that way, but that's the way you're coming across to me, and probably your friend as well.

FUCK!

Now, one of the reasons I am an exceptional teacher is because I understand the fallacy of branding people 'stupid'. I have worked with students who are exceptionally intelligent, students of average intelligence, and students on the low end. I will say this: intelligence and stupidity (unlike size and volume) are not synonyms. I have encountered exceptionally intelligent students who didn't give a shit ie: chose to remain ignorant. Fine, but not stupid. I have also encountered students who were somewhat slow on the uptake but overcame that deficiency through raw ambition and effort. Even better, but not stupid!

Patience and the ability to tailor teaching methods to individual student needs are essential to effective teaching. You obviously lack both of these, so shove your hastily-contrived judgment of me right back into whatever orifice you pulled it out of. I'd also recommend that in the future you avoid digging holes of technical ecstasy from which you cannot escape. It's entirely possible that your shine is somewhat less brilliant than you perceive it to be.

Again, credulous of me to judge, but at this point I must place both you and your friend in the 'intelligent, yet ignorant' category. Not an insult. You've earned it, but I still won't call either of you stupid.

You see, the very reason I decided to partake in this thread stems from the same instincts that make me an exceptional teacher. In this country's native language, 'stupid' is considered a very harsh, demeaning, insulting adjective to throw at someone. If you do so, you'd better be able to back it up with either your fists or extremely obvious evidence. You have not provided such evidence. All you've furnished thus far is an invitation to a condescension circle-jerk. If they're stupid, you're a genius, is that how it works?

Fuck that one-sided bullshit.

Have a nice day. :)

SU
 

Solitaire U.

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Oh alright...here. Not like they would have been hard to find or anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking

Read in particular the air-fuel ratio page. The idea is to achieve a perfect air/fuel balance. That is, provide just enough air to burn the fuel provided. This is the idea behind what I explained as 'too rich' or 'too lean'. I don't know if this is correct nowadays, but I seem to recall the 'perfect balance' figures for the engines I used as examples as something like 14.7:1. That is, 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel. I might be wrong on that...it's been awhile and I'm too weary now to look it up, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, on that or any other info I provided above.

Just don't go freaking out so deep into the defensive zone again. We're discussing a deceptively complex topic here.

Anyway, I'm waiting for your reply, and getting bored.

SU
 

Solitaire U.

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And since all my fucking virtual and mental links are now arcing, here's some more trivia for you:

Did you know that variable-displacement engines exist? My father's '81 Cadillac Eldorado was an example of the first mass-production variable-displacement engines. It had what was called an 8-6-4 engine. This was essentially a 368ci V-8 with some very interesting modifications.

The idea behind the 8-6-4 was to improve fuel efficiency by shutting down either 2 or 4 cylinders during light load conditions. Great concept, but unfortunately the electronics and computer management technology of the era were not up to the task. This engine became notorious for electronics failures. After many trips to the dealer, my father's 8-6-4 was eventually replaced with a conventional HT-4100 DFI under warranty, though the 8-6-4 badges on the front fenders remained.

You can read about Cadillac's ill-fated 8-6-4 here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_V8_engine
and variable displacement in general here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_displacement

Very interesting concept still somewhat in its infancy, but being ventured into by Honda, Mercedes Benz, and other automakers.

Side note: variable displacement doesn't alter air/fuel ratios, compression ratios, etc. It simply shuts down 2 or 4 of an engine's cylinders, which reduces available volume.

What is a Hemi engine? Simply put, a hemi engine is an engine with hemispherical (domed) combustion chambers. Valves on a hemi engine are situated on either side of the 'dome' at an angle, facing each other instead of side by side. " This layout makes space in the combustion chamber roof for larger valves and straightens the airflow passages through the cylinder head. This creates what is known as a cross-flow head, where the intake charge flows directly across the chamber to the exhaust valve located directly opposite it." Quote from wiki, read more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Hemi_engine

These are just two of many (potentially, if you're into it) interesting information sources related to the topic at hand. I have yet to see any kind of thread on this board devoted to internal combustion engine technology, so consider your thread to be paving the way in that regard (you're welcome).

See how nice I am?

Just don't be an asshole about it! :)
 

Montresor

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I'm glad the mental anguish has passed and I can safely say lesson learned. I'll read this stuff later on just drinking in the sun right now.

I appreciate what you're trying to do I can be a cool guy sometimes.
 

DelusiveNinja

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I like to manipulate "stupid people" like pawns then I vanish in the unlikely event that they find out the truth.....hmmm that sounds kind of rapacious to me.
 

Cherry Cola

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regarding OP:

I try to manipulate them for my own benefit instead of arguing with them. That is if they are dislikeable as well as stupid.
 

RaBind

sparta? THIS IS MADNESS!!!
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Share your story or not I just want to know if INTPs stay cool or get angry (and I mean furious) at this kind of ILLOGICAL CRAP.

I feel sorry for you that you had to go through that. Just hearing about you situation gave me chills. I assume when you say "when people are stupid" you mean they are actively being degenerative to their own learning and I agree I also cannot stomach people embracing ignorance. Being satisfied with the simple explanations in their own little worlds. Well I don't hate lack of information, or even lack of will to actively seek out new information, so much as the rejection of opposing information. Nobody can known everything, but when others know something you don't, you should learn from them.

That being said how I react would be dependent on who I was arguing with. If it was a stranger or someone I didn't know to well I would react in a matter of fact way i.e. give them the definition or explanation from a website. Or I would just ignore them first if they started to go into argue mode; I mean what's the point in arguing when you can do some research and prove it to him? i.e. just use you phone to look up the information and show it. If it was someone I know very well I would probably argue my point, which usually ends up with them ignoring me.

I think trolling stupid people might work well, at least it gives you satisfaction in knowing that you're making an asshat's life miserable and unbearable.

I pretty much love arguing, I don't feel furious

don't you feel angry when people don't let you argue though? such as in the op where they just ignored him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5of4A7DGQvw
You should probably try to see stupid people as humorous
 

Montresor

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I feel sorry for you that you had to go through that. Just hearing about you situation gave me chills. Well I was in the wrong, possibly more than he was.

I assume when you say "when people are stupid" you mean they are actively being degenerative to their own learning and I agree I also cannot stomach people embracing ignorance. Yes, if nothing else, yes yes.

Being satisfied with the simple explanations in their own little worlds. Well I don't hate lack of information, or even lack of will to actively seek out new information, so much as the rejection of opposing information. Thoughtful for sure. You are right, the first two are forgivable - easily condoned. The third, though, is generally offensive to me as well.

Nobody can known everything, but when others know something you don't, you should learn from them. Amen to that.

don't you feel angry when people don't let you argue though? such as in the op where they just ignored him. Of course that was the point, really - was that I was angry that the argument could not happen. Of course, I chose to bring it here, which wasn't so much of a mistake ... but I didn't really get what I wanted from it, maybe what I needed...

I appreciate the heartfelt response but I am honestly ashamed of this thread. I think it was more of a "need to vent" thing but since it's the INTP forum I tried to structure it into something constructive and conducive to conversation, but failed mostly, due to my own general wrongness (i.e. false information, as Synthetix put it) and therefore faulty arguments.

One thing I learned is it's best not to really get attached to your arguments. :facepalm:

Also, don't show weakness.
 

NormannTheDoorman

Rice is love. Rice is life.
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Yes, I actually do this. (Occasionally)



Go in a corner and crouch down and roll up into a fetal position.

I start whispering to myself about the issue from multiple perspectives.




or


I insult them while I put on a deadpan personality. Most of the time, they don't know if I intended it as an insult.
 
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