Were you military?

[Adrift]

I recently separated from the Air Force after only four years due to the overwhelming lack of appreciation for intelligence. I felt as if I had solutions to tons of issues but I lacked either the rank or voice to get it done. I also hated the lack of freedom. I know, "Why did you join if you wanted freedom?". I was young and needed a start in life and I felt as if I should follow in my fathers footsteps. After basic training and technical school there was a lot of off time for me to analyze everything else that was happening and that is what drove me to the edge.

I'm curious if anyone else that is INTP decided to join the military and whether or not you decided to re-enlist or not. What were your reasons for your decision? Other thoughts?

 

[SpaceYeti]

I joined the Army over three years ago, and reenlisted about eight months ago. The Army is very SJ, but this is better than being jobless and thus failing as a father.

 

[Adrift]

A jobless father is never good. That would have been the only thing that could have kept me in the service. I couldn't deal with having a child that I could not support.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Neither could I, Hence dealing with the BS.

 

[redbaron]

Been considering it on and off for a few years now. I would probably apply for something in intelligence though, or at the very least combat engineer.

I'm thinking of doing it as a sort of career change in a few years. Would go army.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Make sure you can get a security clearance if you plan on going Int.

 

[redbaron]

What do you mean? Military is different in kangaroo-land.

 

[Tony3d]

I honestly didn't think it was possible for INTPs and millitary to mix...

 

[SpaceYeti]

I honestly didn't think it was possible for INTPs and millitary to mix...

The trick is to use your natural lack of giving a fuck to not give one. There is certainly BS that's irritating, but you gotta let it roll off your back. Besides that, just know and do your job, be where you're supposed to be when you're supposed to be, keep in mind the silly rituals, and you'll be fine. Yeah, a lot of it's silly. Just go in understanding that.

 

[Adrift]

The trick is to use your natural lack of giving a fuck to not give one. There is certainly BS that's irritating, but you gotta let it roll off your back. Besides that, just know and do your job, be where you're supposed to be when you're supposed to be, keep in mind the silly rituals, and you'll be fine. Yeah, a lot of it's silly. Just go in understanding that.

Summed up quite well. It's possible but not ideal. I was an electronics tech so I had a lot of things to puzzle over and fix. The problem was I always had to be in a team due to the nature of the job. Also, political BS was too much to deal with. Like I said though, possible but not ideal.

 

[TheScornedReflex]

In 8-12 months I will be trying out for the Royal Marines. There is a Combat Intelligence specialists course I have my eyes on.

 

[Wolf18]

I'm seriously considering enlisting, mainly because I think I really need that kind of stress in my life. I wouldn't go career, though. Just a few years. Then I'll go back to being my usual seclusive INTP self.

 

[CCCat]

For those considering.

I am currently Navy Enlisted (1 year mark so I'm still a bit of a newbie). I can't speak for all jobs but I can say the most disappointing fact in my field (Aviation Maintenance Dept) is that nearly everything is step by step, by the Book.

I excelled in mechanics and troubleshooting through my early years, and hoped to put my found fascination to good use through the Military. Sure, good understanding will help you learn your way around quicker, but in the end, it's mostly about being motivated and dedicated. Even if you believe so much you have the answer to a downed aircraft, all you can do is follow the troubleshooting steps how the Book tells you to. Keep in mind how much aircraft cost... Sure you can try and convince your superiors to try something else but chances are no, either they want to follow the Book to cover their ass, or they think they have the better answer...

That being said, I still love my job and I like (most) the people I work with. While not perfect, the Military has giving me an experience of a life time. I will certainly not forget it Though once I finish this hell of a ride I'll probably move on to new things.

Okay one more final note, yes there is as a lot of silly rules in place (as stated) and sometimes things won't make sense until you accept the fact that you and everyone around you is still considered property. I find the easiest way to see things clear is to remember that these games are played to ensure that the *ULTIMATE GOAL* is achieved. The importance is more in the mission and is not always in favor of the people.

 

[Duxwing]

I joined the Army over three years ago, and reenlisted about eight months ago. The Army is very SJ, but this is better than being jobless and thus failing as a father.

So what do you do in the military, and what makes the military a better environment than the private sector?

-Duxwing

 

[SpaceYeti]

So what do you do in the military, and what makes the military a better environment than the private sector?

-Duxwing

I wholly lacked any useful education past high school (as though that's useful!), and the military teaches you everything you need to know to do your job. Further, they provide you with free money for education once you're in. You get full benefits, decent pay for a starting level position, and adfitional bonuses for your dependants.

While I could technically have found a job in the private sector, my bills had piled up and I was simply incapable of finding a job that would actually pay them off. I'm now almost debt free (I owe only for a few cards I keep specifically for credit rating improvement, and my car.

The military's pay is gauranteed. You will not go without pay, you will not get laid off, You will not get fired, though you may still get separated for other reasons, but it's difficult to do without a major F up.

 

[Duxwing]

I wholly lacked any useful education past high school (as though that's useful!), and the military teaches you everything you need to know to do your job. Further, they provide you with free money for education once you're in. You get full benefits, decent pay for a starting level position, and adfitional bonuses for your dependants.

While I could technically have found a job in the private sector, my bills had piled up and I was simply incapable of finding a job that would actually pay them off. I'm now almost debt free (I owe only for a few cards I keep specifically for credit rating improvement, and my car.

The military's pay is gauranteed. You will not go without pay, you will not get laid off, You will not get fired, though you may still get separated for other reasons, but it's difficult to do without a major F up.

Ah, OK. If the pay is good and steady, I can see why a family man would want to stay. Apart from that rather important tidbit, are you using your opportunity to go to college?

-Duxwing

 

[Ezro]

went U.S. Navy, lucked out in the intel community....

 

[SpaceYeti]

Ah, OK. If the pay is good and steady, I can see why a family man would want to stay. Apart from that rather important tidbit, are you using your opportunity to go to college?

-Duxwing

Yes. I hadn't been, mostly because I didn't know how to and then got deployed, but I'm enrolled in a class now. You don't get many with Tuition Assistance, but once you get your GI bill, in or out, you get free college. Even only one class per semester, you can have a bachelors in about 8-10 years, for free.

 

[Adrift]

I'm seriously considering enlisting, mainly because I think I really need that kind of stress in my life. I wouldn't go career, though. Just a few years. Then I'll go back to being my usual seclusive INTP self.

I don't regret my four years at all. If you want the challenge of it then go for it. I will say it's not as hard as everyone makes it sound though. All anything takes is just a little willpower to not quit.

I do think the time I servef made me a little more open with my thoughts. I'm quite a bit more forward with my opinion than I was before. I'm still trying to figure out if this is a good thing or not.

 

[Hadoblado]

I find your average army grunt impossible to have dialogue with, even the P ones seem somehow brainwashed into believing pro-military propaganda (at least in my experience). I don't think I could handle those sort of people being around all the time.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I find your average army grunt impossible to have dialogue with, even the P ones seem somehow brainwashed into believing pro-military propaganda (at least in my experience). I don't think I could handle those sort of people being around all the time.

What do you attempt to have dialogue with them about? Where do you talk with them about it, what are they doing? Are they, perhaps, in uniform, where they're not allowed to hint that they're less than a professional soldier?

Context is everything, yo. You know I'm an Army grunt, right? You know I have Army grunts as friends, right? I get along with Army grunts in about the same proportions I get along with people of many other profession. Methinks you're hasty to judge, perhaps?

 

[walfin]

Do former conscripts count?

And, I suppose I could've been considered an army grunt too. You'll be surprised (or perhaps not since it's a conscript army) at how much more some average army grunts here know than some senior officers (with respect to academic stuff at least).

I would probably apply for something in intelligence though, or at the very least combat engineer.

Combat engineer? Not sure where you're from but over here I think it is a lot of scut work. Lay bridges and fold it back up, run around in EOD gear etc. It's more high tech nowadays but it doesn't mean fun, the same old stupid equipment day in and day out plus cleaning the darned vehicles makes it about as fun as your average armoured regiment. That's what I think. Though intelligence might use some intelligence (no idea what they actually do).

 

[Reluctantly]

I'm going to be a Radar Repairer for the US Army if I can't find an engineering job in the next couple of months. That said, just talking to the recruiters every week, I feel like they are trying to indoctrinate me into a cult with the songs, chants, Warrior message, and crap like that. I can tell some of them don't care about this stuff either, but the one's who do seem pretty annoying and stupid. I just say this stuff, but I don't actually feel it at all.

Cool thing is, after two years if I get a recommendation I can go Warrant Officer and get my student loans paid off by the government. Plus, Warrant Officers are like Technical Consultants from what I hear. I'd love a job like that.

/rant
And people who say "Thanks for serving" and make the Military sound like some great virtuous calling for people scare me a little. I'm not "serving", I'm getting a career where I'll care about the people around me and possibly die doing so. Just because it happens to be a way to protect a country doesn't mean that's why everyone joins. And the Military isn't necessarily a virtuous idea. I guess I just have to remember not to tell people what I actually think, but I'm already good at that, I believe. The funny thing is that the President becomes the highest ranking officer, so you can't exactly express politics beliefs anymore, but I have a feeling it's probably better that I not think about it anymore, as politics makes people stupid.

/government tangent
I just found out today that the local workforce agency that is funded by the government is giving businesses annual money for hiring people. So some of the businesses around here have fired people and hired from the agency...

 

[Adrift]

@Reluctantly
If you have a BS of whatever engineering your best bet is to go officer if you're seriously thinking about joining. You get twice the pay and you can even get an actuall engineering job where you really aren't even military anymore. You still are but it's different from most everyone else. Please, don't go enlisted if you have a degree.

 

[Reluctantly]

I don't really have any experience with my degree and I don't have great references because of that. I made the choice not to apply after learning how competitive it is now as well. I can apply for WOCS after two years if I get a recommendation from whomever is in command.

And you're talking about warrant officers as engineers? Because officers from the MOS's I looked at appear to be focused on managing, but not technical expertise.

 

[Adrift]

No I meant actual officers sorry about that. I'm not sure about the Army (sorry again) but I do know the Air Force has an engineering department. Your experience doesn't matter as far as I know. In the enlisted world as long as you made it through school you were as good as anyone else. I can't imagine it being much different for officers. Also, you could be a "manager" with a BA in music. They don't care what degree you have, just that you're educated. I wish I knew more about the engineering program but I don't.

Oh... also look on usajobs.gov if you're interested. There's tons of positions for engineering on there. They're all civilian too. I just thought I'd share some other options that you may not have looked at.

 

[SpaceYeti]

As has been said, in the Army Officers are primarily the managerial paper-pushers. They're technically in charge and thus held accountable for their unit or area of opperation, and they have training to support it, but their NCOs have more experience. It's the job of platoon sergeants, for example, to train their second lieutenant, even though the 2LT is technically the boss of the platoon. Basically, the officers are the upper management white collar guys, who know how to manage, but may not understand practical implementation, whereas the NCOs are the mid-managers and upper blue collar positions who have to enforce their boss' plans in a practical environment. The lower enlisted are just grunts, but they're still people and, more importantly, adults, with professional knowledge and training in their job.

Again, the Airforce probably does work differently, but I'm sure they follow the same principles in organization at the basic level.

 

[snafupants]

I'm really not cut out for the military. I can be exceptionally delicate and, so others tell me, taking orders is not one of my strong suits.

 

[Beholder]

I recently finished three years of compulsory service in the IDF...
Glad I did it, even more glad it's over. I learned a lot, and made some really good friends, so that's all that really matters. Although I recently traveled around Europe and it was kinda disappointing meeting all these people my age or younger finishing their degrees and doing stuff with their lives, and here I am, 22 years old, spending the last of my grant (about three thousand dollars, yes that's what I get for three years of being a combat soldier) from the army on this trip. Now I'm saving up for another big trip, and plan on starting to study next year probably...

 

[walfin]

(about three thousand dollars, yes that's what I get for three years of being a combat soldier)

USD 3K for the entire three years?!?!

 

[TheScornedReflex]

I recently finished three years of compulsory service in the IDF...

IDF. Israeli Defense Force?

 

[Adrift]

USD 3K for the entire three years?!?!

I'm sure he means per month for three years or experience/time in the service.

 

[Beholder]

IDF. Israeli Defense Force?

Yes.

I'm sure he means per month for three years or experience/time in the service.

I got around 170~ USD a month (712 NIS), and at the end a 3K grant, plust about 7K which I can only use on education or starting a business or something like that. Ya it's pretty pathetic, but then, it's not a professional army like in the US or most countries.

 

[Adrift]

Yes.


I got around 170~ USD a month (712 NIS), and at the end a 3K grant, plust about 7K which I can only use on education or starting a business or something like that. Ya it's pretty pathetic, but then, it's not a professional army like in the US or most countries.

That makes sense. I was assuming you were in the US. Shame on me.

 

[joal0503]

demographics of american miltary branches are interesting...

the marines and army recruit uneducated poor young men...

the navy and air force recruit older, educated, wealthy men...

the point...how else are you going to get people to fight wars ? payyyyy up.

srsly, its genius. its why so many people join up! its a way out...

 

[ObliviousGenius]

I'm Active Duty Air Force. I can't say I agree with the notion that the AF doesn't appreciate intelligence especially with the huge number of INTPs I know. What was your job?

There are several things that annoy me about being in the military but they pay too well. There's also OSI (Office of Special Investigations) to consider, because I want a job with the FBI or CIA. That's my goal at this point if I don't become an officer. I've only been in for about 6 months but I know what I want to accomplish. I joined because I didn't have many other options. I made sure I didn't list any mechanical or electrical jobs because I know I would have suffered from boredom and repetition.

I work in Ops which is a little more lively. Basic training was annoying but easy, I had fun with my flight. Tech school was fun as well. So far I like it and it's serving its purpose.

 

[Adrift]

I'm Active Duty Air Force. I can't say I agree with the notion that the AF doesn't appreciate intelligence especially with the huge number of INTPs I know. What was your job?

There are several things that annoy me about being in the military but they pay too well. There's also OSI (Office of Special Investigations) to consider, because I want a job with the FBI or CIA. That's my goal at this point if I don't become an officer. I've only been in for about 6 months but I know what I want to accomplish. I joined because I didn't have many other options. I made sure I didn't list any mechanical or electrical jobs because I know I would have suffered from boredom and repetition.

I work in Ops which is a little more lively. Basic training was annoying but easy, I had fun with my flight. Tech school was fun as well. So far I like it and it's serving its purpose.

I should revise my statement to mean "creativity". Anything outside of what has always been done if frowned upon. Unless, of course, you channel through the right people. That's takes ages and sometimes get's no where. That said, I was an electronic tech. I can't go too much into detail other than that. It had it's mental challenges and lack of repetition but still in the end, as I mentioned, did not allow personal freedom.
As a side note I doubt there's a lot of INTPs in the military in general. 1-3% of the population and 1% of the population is military which generally attracts extroverts. Either you're really lucky or mistyping them. Or, just exaggerating. Oh, and when I was only in for 6 months I felt the same thing. Goals. How awesome it is. I was actually still in tech school at the time. You might realize how fucked up everything is later on or you might not.

 

[Beholder]

I actually found creative outlet in finding the most efficient ways of completing all kinds of tasks, a lot of maintenance work and stuff. I also liked learning how everything worked, the last year of my service I was coaching reservists on really old artillery where everything is done manually, so there was a lot of geometry and stuff behind it which I taught myself. I think, all in all there are very few people, if any, in the country who understand and know the workings of our artillery pieces as much as I do, so even though it's completely useless knowledge which I hope to never have to use, it was fun learning it
I also enjoyed all the alone time I got, doing guard duty and stuff like that. And navigation, I LOVED that! We would have to study a map beforehand and create and memorize a route, you had to be able to really picture it and create this model in your head so that when you're planning the route you know what it will look like when you're there, and you know what to look for. It's so satisfying when you're walking the route you planned and everything is exactly as you planned.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I find it bizarre how bad people are with navigation. It's not uncommon for a small group to get lost when we're training on it. I mean... plot a point, shoot an azimuth, go. It's really NOT hard!

 

[walfin]

Yes.


I got around 170~ USD a month (712 NIS), and at the end a 3K grant, plust about 7K which I can only use on education or starting a business or something like that. Ya it's pretty pathetic, but then, it's not a professional army like in the US or most countries.

I'm quite stunned. I'd thought we were the worst paid conscripts in the world. For all the money Israel expends on defence budgets, it seems like very little of it goes towards conscript salaries.

 

[Cybeny]

I tried getting into the New Zealand Navy as a Weapons Engineering Officer. They fast tracked me through the whole process due to my academics, and then rejected me at the last step because I didn't look completely sure whether I actually wanted it.

This irritated me a lot, because they didn't give me any time to decide if I was sure. In hindsight, I'm probably more suited to a cozy academic/office role, but I'm still irritated about the whole thing.

 

[Beholder]

I find it bizarre how bad people are with navigation. It's not uncommon for a small group to get lost when we're training on it. I mean... plot a point, shoot an azimuth, go. It's really NOT hard!

We did our navigations alone, but I can definitely see how having more than two people doing it would be disastrous...

 

[Wolf18]

I find it bizarre how bad people are with navigation. It's not uncommon for a small group to get lost when we're training on it. I mean... plot a point, shoot an azimuth, go. It's really NOT hard!

I'm a CAP (UK equivalent = Royal Air Cadets) cadet and I spent last summer at National ES Academy, in Indiana (Camp Atterbury, for those who care or know). There was one guy on team 2 (I was team 1, and they were our sister team) who just couldn't get navigation. Like most of us, she failed the first time she took the test, because a lot of the courses were plotted incorrectly by the staff. However, when the rest of us passed and when on to DF, she still couldn't pass the test. I think it took her 3 or 4 times to pass. She failed the course, I believe. I guess some people just can't get it, but I can't understand it, either. You're right; it's NOT hard, but a lot of people make mistakes.
We also did our navigation courses alone. Why were you doing them as a group?

On a separate note: Adrift, maybe you can help me with this. I have been commander of the cadet part of my home CAP squadron for almost a year (which is our term limit). I'm thinking of stepping down now because I find myself working so late early in the week that I can't concentrate on school during the day. On the other hand, I'm not sure if that would be the best idea because I just wrote a squadron agenda for the rest of the year and January is not a great time to step down.
What should I do?

 

[gc3]

I have been in the Navy for 19 years. It has been fun...a fascianting look into the world of human interactions in sometimes stressful environments, and how regular people overcome illogical burdens placed upon them by well intentioned (maybe) controlling, powerful people on a daily basis to accomplish the mission. It has been a great ride, and it continues to this day. That said, I have always felt like I was in a movie, like I didn't really belong, even though I have done extremely well, partially because I was able to think about the implications of actions at levels much deeper than many of my counterparts...how actions and evolutions would affect people not just on a work basis, but on a personality basis, and how that would affect their reactions, etc...INTPs have a great advantage if they're strong enough to maintain the military front and focus, which certainly must be maintained, because it's a mental game and a marathon in patience. The discipline is good for this INTP however, who would otherwise be completely content to stare at the wall and think about stuff.

 

[Absurdity]

Toyed with the idea of trying to go into intelligence or become a JAG, until I found out that I am ineligible for service.

Guess I'll just stick to being an armchair general.

 

[just george]

At what point does a guy who lives at the beach sipping alcoholic beverages all day in the shining sun in warm weather suddenly look around and say "Mate, this sucks! Im going to go join an organization that pays you bugger all, bosses you around, makes you run with heavy things on your back, then sends you off to fight people you don't know who never bothered you"?

That's crazy, man.

 

[srf4413]

I did 5 years in the Marine Corps. Most, if not all, of what Spaceyeti is talking about earlier in this thread is true. Just keep your head down and play the game. Boot camp was hilarious to me. The most difficult part for me was the physical part. I'm a horrible distance runner. I think mostly because I have a hard time with putting forth prolonged effort with just about everything. That being said, while in, I pretty much hated a lot of the BS that didn't make sense to me. Also paying for other peoples mistakes also ate at my very being. I'm not really one to let my opinions known unless I feel the situation is dangerous. they try to make you police your own. While I can see the merit in that, I tend to just "do me" and try not to pay attention to the idiocy around me. Standing a 24 hour watch at the barracks on a Saturday while marines get drunk and do dumb shit never sat well with me. At the end of my time tho. It gave me a trade which I'm still doing today(got out in '05) so I can't it was a bad decision. Just gotta know what your getting into and be willing to follow rules that may seem really dumb.

 

[tcclaviger]

13 Years Army.

4 Deployments

Switched from an Admin job to Intelligence at the 7 year mark.

Expect: Stupid rules, stupid customs, stupid people, myopic views, republicans, homophbia, tons of Alpha males, tons of wasted time.

Positive Outcomes: It forces you to balance certain aspects of your personality if you aspire to lead or gain rank into the senior ranks. It alows you to meet a huge cross-section of society. Many of the Army's new recruits hold a bachelors degree or better now consistent with ever increasing entrance standards (I would estimate 40-50 percent of all new enlisted recruits).

Tips: Prepare mentally to be forced out of your comfort zone, giving speeches, classes, marching formations, leading activites etc. Forcasting these events has assisted me in conducting activites to which I have a natural aversion.

The Danger: If you do not control your outward attitude when dealing with people more senior in rank, you will get in trouble. Generally, we are more intelligent that most of the US population, it comes with the type, and working for an idiot with rank makes it challenging not your outwardly display contempt for said idiot e.g. rolling your eyes, sighing, using the "pfft" noise etc. Once your a senior however, you can be as socially akward as you want, no one can say shit to you :P