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Voting is a complete fallacy

Inquisitor

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If you want to vote, vote with your money.

Every one of us has much more control over what we choose to buy and consume than we do over how politicians act. In theory, you could live completely off the land in this country (would be a challenge, but it is possible) and not buy a single product or service from anyone.

I personally would not want to do this, but the point is that I can choose whether or not to support entire industries with my money. For example, I try to buy only local organic food, and I avoid factory-raised animal products entirely. I get my milk/eggs from an Amish farm, and when I do choose to eat meat, I only eat the organic stuff and only in necessary amounts. B/c I am not buying processed food, this poisonous industry is not prospering b/c of me, and over the course of my life my choice means that some animals will not be raised and slaughtered in inhumane ways. I also don't consume alcohol, drugs, cigarettes or fast food. All four of these industries should not exist in my opinion. They always make things worse instead of better b/c they are by definition, poisons.

Gandhi said:
If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. … We need not wait to see what others do.

I know it's cliche but how you lead your life has a much, much greater impact on society than voting.
 

420MuNkEy

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I don't count pipe dreams as perspective, 420Munkey. I should have formulated more precisely: 'developmental perspective' is what matters. That means foreseeing actual potential developments. As you seem to admit, whatever you dream of is not going to be brought up. What is going to be brought up is fun regressive stuff like teaching genesis instead of evolution at schools, bulding borders everywhere, camps, ghettos, prisons for people who smoke weed and you are doing nothing to prevent that from happening, because you just have to let the whole world know that you are something better. It a most ineffective way of communicating something to your comrades. Nobody looks at the number of people who don't vote and thinks: "gee, so many people who will all be happy to join me in my attempts to give birth to a whole new system. today i will become politically active and change the world."

i actually feel bad for pointing this out, because it's so obvious.
News flash: Not everyone has the same political views as you.

I'd be equally as unhappy with Trump in office as I would be with Clinton or Sanders or any other somewhat realistic candidate. You may have a least favorite, but I don't. Voting is not by any means a meaningful path for my to express my political views given the current system.

My choices, given the current system, even if there was a "less bad" candidate, are either tacitly endorsing the policies I don't agree with or wasting my vote on a completely unrealistic 3rd party candidate. The number of votes someone like Gary Johnson (not saying that's who I endorse, but just as an example) gets doesn't actually matter, because he's not going to win. On the other hand, if I cast my vote for someone like Bernie Sanders, that would mean I'm endorsing what I consider to be ridiculous economic policies. The symbolic vote only matters if it can be cast by others as well without fear of sacrificing the tactical vote. Since I have no tactical vote to cast, the symbolic is all I'm left with, and since it's directly at odds with the tactical vote, I'm not going to waste my time.

All of this is ignoring the fact that fundamentally, votes are merely suggestions given the current system, as I've pointed out multiple times. I'd rather voice my suggestions in a way more accurate than a weighted half-truth. You're right in saying that (essentially) no one looks at the number of non-voters and thinks it's a protest to the system, which is why I don't consider my non-vote an actual vote (which you seem to). I don't make my voice heard through voting (or not voting) because I feel there's no meaningful way for me to do so. I make my voice heard by speaking out and discussing politics with people and writing letters to my elected representatives. While I'm not going to single-handedly change the world with these tactics (and I'll remind you, nor is your vote), it's the only path available to me to accurately represent my political interests in any sort of meaningful way.

If it's all just suggestions in the end, then that's what I'll do, but I'll at least do so in a way that's accurate to what I actually want.
 

Analyzer

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"If you don't vote you cant complain".
 

nanook

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>News flash: Not everyone has the same political views as you
>You may have a least favorite, but I don't.

news flash? i already suggested to you, you lack developmental perspective, but you had to protest ... obviously you are that third sibling who is happy to be stuck in an ineffective crutch and this discussion won't change anything. if you don't vote for what you "consider to be ridiculous" - a democratic candidate, you are not voting for the basic freedoms of the age of enlightenment and settle for the middle-ages. your annoyance with the economic policies of sanders is just an intellectual vanity and sanders won't even make the race. economic outcomes are ultimately not an election related subject, since they are mostly determined by financial interests of financially strong players. basically the rich will get richer, one way or another. voting is about what laws regulate the lives of people like yourselves. will you go to jail for having this lawless avatar?

why so worried about economics? are you one of those trading monkeys who are really concerned with nothing but their little business agenda? like many liberals are. in that case you fall into the developmental rung of conservatives and i'm not surprised that you can't be bothered to vote a more progressive party.

i hate this discussion. i'm an utopist by temperament and was always happy to boycott society altogether, so as to not get wasted by it. but when it comes to politics, as opposed to personal life choices, we just have to be a bit reasonable and objective and thus practical and constructive, basically extroverted. the right tool for the right job. voting wouldn't exactly drain your life energy.

a reasonable excuse to not vote would be "I don't vote, because i'm too depressed and too high to leave the house or come to a conclusion about which party is most preferable to me." Because depressed or intoxicated people are actually a minority and random insofar, as their condition arises independently from political trends, so applying the categorical imperative to this attitude wouldn't prevent progress. I don't expect clueless or diseased people to vote and i have felt sick myself, on occasion.

re: Inquisitor

I agree about voting with money, but i can't buy police officers who don't want to shoot me or teachers who won't teach blatant lies to my kids, etc ... (a bit too expensive)

If you believe that any small amount of animal product is necessary, you must believe that a mass producing life stock industry is necessary too, given the amount of humans that exist. Best to wake up to the fact that humans do best on fruit, can barely cope with acidic denatured cookery and can't handle this high protein, high fat dead animal puss at all. Watch the docu Cowspiracy and nutritionfacts.org
 

Feather

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Yellow talked of accurate data – that implies more is good. But that reminds me of a school giving a census to its students on what kind of lunch they want. I can see that in that case the more students that properly take the census the more likely that the lunches that get served will please a larger portion of the students.

I think that has a very loose comparison to voting for politics. Because the social responsibility we have is larger than just short term pleasure - there will be sustainable long term problems that follow. The idea of more is better I question. If the kids boil down the census to a vote for sloppy Joes or pizza more votes does not necessary lead to the healthier option. Each option will have its own unique negative impact on the health of the kids; the determination of which one is worse really is a guess unless made by a professional. Even an attempt at social responsibility to pick not what is most pleasurable but least harmful could amount to a guess and more guessing I don’t think is necessarily better, although it would wash out really bad options.


I think I agree with those saying something along the lines of – voting is the least effective action one can take in any pursuit of social responsibility. In that time it takes to go vote just taking a second to inspect any social bigotry one might have is a far better use of time.

Voting is like growing your grass in your yard tall so to deal with the issue of burgulary.
 

420MuNkEy

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obviously you are that third sibling who is happy to be stuck in an ineffective crutch
I very clearly and carefully explained how I'm maximizing my political efficacy. You've given no rebuttal here.

if you don't vote for what you "consider to be ridiculous" - a democratic candidate, you are not voting for the basic freedoms of the age of enlightenment and settle for the middle-ages. your annoyance with the economic policies of sanders is just an intellectual vanity and sanders won't even make the race. economic outcomes are ultimately not an election related subject, since they are mostly determined by financial interests of financially strong players. basically the rich will get richer, one way or another. voting is about what laws regulate the lives of people like yourselves. will you go to jail for having this lawless avatar?
I don't agree with you politically, therefore I must be advocating the dark ages. Really solid rebuttal there. Things like taxes and government regulation in business can't possibly have an effect on citizens, right? Financial liberty isn't a thing, clearly. I shouldn't concern myself with how the government is spending the money it extracts from me by force or how much of my money they're likely going to be extracting from me by force. None of that matters. I'm sure they've got it figured out and it won't impact my life one bit.

I work for myself. Taxes and financial regulation can impact my life in a profound way. I'm far more at the mercy of big government than big business when it comes to my financial wellbeing. This concerns me because I'm a human and require food and shelter.

Also, my avatar is not lawless? I don't know if you've noticed, but several states legalized, and even if they hadn't such imagery has never been illegal (or even seriously been threatened to be made illegal) in the US (as far as I know).

why so worried about economics? are you one of those trading monkeys who are really concerned with nothing but their little business agenda? like many liberals are. in that case you fall into the developmental rung of conservatives and i'm not surprised that you can't be bothered to vote a more progressive party.
Because I need to be able to afford food and shelter. Seriously, what is it with you and pushing your political agenda on to me? I'm not doing the same to you. I said what I found personally ridiculous on issues that concerned me. I'm not you. I care about things you don't and I'm sure you care about things that I don't. We're different people. To quote you "i actually feel bad for pointing this out, because it's so obvious."

but when it comes to politics, as opposed to personal life choices, we just have to be a bit reasonable and objective and thus practical and constructive.
Reason as defined by slavishly deferring to you?

voting wouldn't exactly drain your life energy.
Nor would putting my dishes on the floor before washing them, but there's no reason to do it. I'm not interested in wasting my time doing things I get nothing out of. If I got a sense of civic pride from voting, I'd probably vote. I don't, so I don't. I'd also vote if my vote actually mattered. It doesn't, so I don't.

a reasonable excuse to not vote would be "I don't vote, because i'm too depressed and too high to leave the house or come to a conclusion about which party is most preferable to me." Because depressed or intoxicated people are actually a minority and random insofar, as their condition arises independently from political trends, so applying the categorical imperative to temper wouldn't prevent progress. I don't expect clueless or diseased people to vote and i have felt sick myself, on occasion.
It seems like you've "progressed" right the fuck past reason and straight into personal attacks. Seriously, what is up with you and my avatar? You haven't actually addressed any of my points, but rather, it seems, just attempted to insult my character while pushing your political agenda as the one true opinion.
 

nanook

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what is it with my pushing of my views? it's just because you don't really get "mine", or rather what a developmental perspective is and why your worries about your money/self-interest make you loose connection with what is important for the greater good of civilisation. i usually don't care to "push" views on anyone, because anyone has their own developing brain and talk doesn't do much for a brain's development, especially heated talk can lead to the opposite outcome. if it doesn't inflame the whole brain it still deepens identification with egoic partial points of view. but being misunderstood has this provokative quality to it ...kinda like you've been asking for it.

of course criticizing your brain or character as you call it is automatically implied in criticizing your perspective. it's why i usually don't discuss with anyone at all and try to stick to monologues on this message board. discussions are always personal and therefore violent. i just want to inspire right action by describing right view.

i wish you well, despite our differences.

i don't care if anyone votes or doesn't, everyone get's to be who and how they are. it's just that, in the context of a discussion about the subject, i would care, that the deepest reasons for why someone doesn't vote are examined.
 

420MuNkEy

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what is it with my pushing of my views? it's just because you don't really get "mine", or rather what a developmental perspective is
Why don't you go ahead and define it then? I don't mean "go look it up". I mean, tell me what you mean by it when you say it.

My understanding of it (in this context) would be a political system which comports with our current state of human evolution (including evolutionary psychology). My political views are not in conflict with my understanding of our state of evolution.

and why your worries about your money/self-interest make you loose connection with what is important for the greater good of civilisation.
Not to go too Godwin, but Stalin and Hitler felt much the same way. My point being, economic systems can and have been massive contributers to deplorable human conditions.

i usually don't care to "push" views on anyone, because anyone has their own developing brain and talk doesn't do much for a brain's development, especially heated talk can lead to the opposite outcome. if it doesn't inflame the whole brain it still deepens identification with egoic partial points of view. but being misunderstood has this provokative quality to it ...kinda like you've been asking for it.
Regardless of what you usually do, you've been doing it here, or at least that's how I've interpreted it. I don't believe I've misunderstood or misrepresented you, and if I have, please feel free to inform me, because I'm unaware. I've tried to remain on topic, only giving political opinions when it's directly relevant to the question of whether or not it's useful to vote.

of course attacking your brain or character as you call it is automatically implied in criticizing your perspective. it's why i usually don't discuss with anyone at all and try to stick to monologues on this message board. discussions are always personal and therefore violent. i just want to inspire right action by describing right view.
I entirely disagree with this. An idea can be expressed anonymously and criticized just as adequately as it could be if the author was known. I also wouldn't conflate disagreement with violence. All this combined with the notion that your perspective is the correct one seems like, without trying to be insulting, narcissistic/borderline personality disorder, though I'm probably over-analyzing.

i wish you well, despite our differences.

i don't care if anyone votes or doesn't, everyone get's to be who and how they are. it's just that, in the context of a discussion about the subject, i would care, that the deepest reasons for why someone doesn't vote are examined.
You as well.

I think I've given a fairly robust explanation of my reasons, so the idea that my reasons are unexamined is strange to me (which is why I'm still responding). If I haven't clearly articulated why, I'd like to know so that if there was a problem in how I communicated I can avoid it in the future.
 

Alias

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I agree that voting as a system is corrupt. In the US, the politics aren't chosen by the people, but the money.

However, when a Presidential election rolls up, I find it a better idea to vote. Here's why. With choosing someone with that much power, it's better that you vote for the lesser of two evils. If people decide not to vote, the one with crazy fanatic supporters wins. The only way you can avoid a Trump or a Carson is to vote for someone less radical, outnumbering the worse one and ensuring you don't get screwed by the big guy.
 

nanook

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this whole paragraph about depression and intoxication was only loosely inspired by speculations about you and was mostly a generic hypothetical used to communicate an excuse that i have found valid, in the past, when i didn't feel like voting. i don't suggest that the true reason you don't vote is because of intoxication or depression. it may be because of cluelessness in the context of development. but my working hypothesis for now is that your identification with your survival needs (money/self interest) is what is pulling you into this "i don't give a fuck" attitude. you seem like "if no party helps me out financially, they have not deserved my support".


My political views are not in conflict with my understanding of our state of evolution.
Let's start with this. Our actual state of evolution is what is producing the world as it is. Your political desires are so far removed from this state, that you are unwilling to participate in the two party system at all.

I intuit that your view of evolution must be selective, in the sense that you want a world/future that structurally supports only your current favorite stage of evolution (which is what you consider your views to be compatible with) and abandons the previous stages or their right to co-create the world or the structures that allow individuals from these stages to exert power.

I intuit that the highest stage that you resonate with must be pluralism, because you keep arguing about how everyone is an individual and should be left alone with their private views and how it's narcissistic if someone claims that his views go beyond personal opinion. Pluralism thinks it's more sensitive than all the other stages but doesn't realize, how much of an intolerant nazi it is, in terms of how it despises the other stages and it's products, such as the objective truth claims of modernity or the feelings of universal morals of pre-modern ethnicities. Pluralism tends to aggressively deconstruct truth (or any universal basis of judgement) and therefore it's own co-responsibility for the state of the whole world. it's conflict management style is largely limited to passive-aggressively pushing problems under the carpet and feeling victimized about being confronted with such problems in the first place. as individuals, pluralists are often as naive as: "if nobody cared to rule the world, we wouldn't have to be afraid of bad rulers and therefore all would be good."

I surely would want to limit the influence of earlier more brutal and limited stages myself, however not violently, only by fair democratic means. In other words, i would like to see the highest available stages attain as much responsibility as they can carry. And through competition their presence would lessen the influence of earlier stages.


This means that as much as i am annoyed by the shortcomings of pluralism, as pointed out, i would always be willing to vote for a party that has mostly pluralist values, such as the democrats. regardless of particular positions in their program, that i may despise. they represent the highest pole that exists in the current system, to my knowledge.

The important point to note is that stages don't disappear from the world, because everyone is forever born at stage one and even though younger generations develop slightly quicker than older generations (in the same country/circumstances) this change is terribly slow. So even 50 years from now, we will still have a country that is filled with grown ups who have pre-modern, modern and postmodern views, just like today. Perhaps we will have a 10% minority of people who have grown beyond pluralism (which is postmodernity) and into integralism, but they won't have had opportunity to transform a lot of structures.

So, for the time being the world is going to stay exactly what it's been in the past 50 years.

There will be a constant struggle between

-keeping up the basic universal values of unicentric enlightenment and of a group or collective spirit designed to foster individual interior qualities, like rational and emotional integrity (that's the bigger quality of civilisation that you confuse with hitlers or stalins dreams),

-or regressing back into the lesser modes of being, where the "individual" (body, not interior) becomes limited to functioning as an automatic tool, shaped violently into serving the purpose or the circumstantial needs of small interest groups or into serving his own physical survival needs. basically the corrupt middle ages of pre-modernity. corrupt individuals, corrupt mafias, corrupt churches, corrupt science.
 

QuickTwist

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Yay, conflict.

JeHeSCi.jpg
 

420MuNkEy

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for now is that your identification with your survival needs (money/self interest) is what is pulling you into this "i don't give a fuck" attitude. you seem like "if no party helps me out financially, they have not deserved my support".
I think you've misunderstood me. It's not that I don't care, it's just that I don't lean one way or the other in terms of what's on offer. I'm between a rock and a hard place. I deeply wish to see my political goals realized, it's just that voting for one side means voting against half of what I care about, regardless of the side. It's not even that I want financial handouts and would actually be in opposition to a candidate who supported them with a few somewhat unpopular exceptions (e.g., universal income/negative income tax). It's just that the financial issues are equally as important to me as the social issues. I tend to disagree with the left financially and the right socially, though this is very general and not the case in every situation. Neither financial or social issues are more important to me.


Your political desires are so far removed from this state, that you are unwilling to participate in the two party system at all.
I think this is a misrepresentation of my position. My participation exists, it's just not in votes. I can advocate for/against specific pieces of legislation to steer my political participation in a direction that an all-or-nothing vote for a single candidate would not allow for. Again, for me, a vote is essentially a half-truth. Typically, at most, I'd agree with one side about half of the things and the other with the other half, and neither half is more important to me. There's no reason for me to cast my vote because regardless of who wins I'm going to be equally dissatisfied. Through advocating for/against specific legislation and speaking out about specific issues, I can make my voice actually heard rather than half of my vote vote canceling the other half out.

I intuit that your view of evolution must be selective, in the sense that you want a world/future that structurally supports only your current favorite stage of evolution (which is what you consider your views to be compatible with) and abandons the previous stages or their right to co-create the world or the structures that allow individuals from these stages to exert power.
I would argue that the reverse is true. My political ideals are as minimal as possible specifically because of evolution. We're not in a state of arrested development, and those deviating from the usual are to be expected. I think politics should not seek to solve problems by focusing on the most common cases, but rather approach issues in ways that can apply globally, even to the deviant among us (taking into account human/civil rights).

This would include things like not just making murder a crime that can only be committed by men because they are most commonly the perpetrators of it. Women who deviate from this will exist and should not be treated less severely than men who commit the same crime. It would also include sexuality and reproduction. Heterosexuality is normal (most common), but we shouldn't incentivize or disincentivize it with law that discriminates/advantages those who deviate from it, same with having children.

Variation is what evolution is all about, and I think the most appropriate approach is largely a hands-off one.

When it comes to conflict resolution, it's all about the letter of the law to me, which is why I think there needs to be a very good reason for a law to exist in the first place. When there is a good enough reason to justify a law, it should be as simple as possible, as unambiguous as possible, and as non-discriminatory/preferential as possible. It's a fine line to walk, but it can be done. I think the bill of rights did it very well.

Economic success is definitely a factor in reproductive success (though not the most critical one by any means), and thus also directly related to evolution. It tends to be more of a factor in the somewhat ensured success of the progeny.

Ultimately, what I want, is the most fair and stable system. I think the existence and protection of some fundamental rights are an essential part of this.


Don't get me wrong, this system is rarely, if ever, ideal for any one individual. A person who's born with no eyes in the system is going to be disadvantaged in a system that doesn't grant them preferential treatment to people with 1+ eyes. Sure, that sucks for them and they'll probably have to rely on the charity of others, but evolution depends on the disparity of outcomes to avoid poisoning the well. The situation could always be better for some by preferring a trait of them over a trait of everyone else, but these traits should be naturally selected based on their own merit.

Obviously this probably sounds a lot like Social Darwinism (depending on how you define it), which it sort of is and sort of isn't. The existence and protection of individual rights and hands-off approach tempers this a bit. It's important to note that those with high levels of economic success are by no means out-breeding those with low economic success (though, as mentioned above, the progeny of those with economic success are typically better off and thus potentially more likely to be reproductively successful themselves). There are many factors involved. It's also worth noting that given relative economic success on average, humans seem to be too empathetic to really let each other just die. Non-government-funded charities exist and keep plenty of people alive. Would they fill the void in the absence of government programs? It's hard to say. Regardless, evolution takes a long time, so no one's really going to notice traits being selected for/against, which seems to be a common fear of Social Darwinism.

All of this is to say, I think the best approach is to do as little as possible while still retaining stability. At best only half my views seem represented, pulling for more freedom on one side and less on the other, when I think there needs to be more freedom on both sides. I don't see the civilization as distinct from individuals when basic rights are included in the package. I didn't even touch on social roles and evolutionary psychology, but that's included in all of this too.

I would go on, but I think I've rambled long enough and probably got quite off topic.
 

Intolerable

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It's akin to saying nobody ever wins the lottery.

Rest assured someone wins. In the voting process our votes do count.

What they don't tell you is how little one vote matters in a sea of indifferent / uninformed votes.

What more they don't tell you is that people are easily scared into voting for the guy who isn't running as an independent. Even though nearly half of the country identifies as independent.

What more they don't tell you is that in some urban districts the dead are counted and some voting districts had illegals casting a ballot. The latter was in Ohio, a swing state.

What more they don't tell you is the number of people who stay home. A huge, huge number of people don't show up to vote because they're honest people. And for every one of them there is usually two dishonest people reading to mark their name next to every (D) or (R) on the ballot.

The vote I feel has been the leading factor in this mess. The notion that we're all equal enough to vote for the leaders of this country is a tragic illustration that we as a society have not learned from the mistakes of history. Feudalism certainly isn't any better, of course. The only system that truly works for the people is a meritocracy.

Let voters prove their intelligence by taking an IQ test. Let them prove they know politics by passing an up-to-season political quiz passed down from the Federal level to the individual districts.

If they can't pass both of those, can't provide ID, can't show they have a modicum of intelligence then they can hit the road. We'll take care of you but no way in hell are we going to give you say in how this country is run.
 

Brontosaurie

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It's akin to saying nobody ever wins the lottery.

Rest assured someone wins. In the voting process our votes do count.

Hm? Who "wins" the voting?

The lottery may be a win at random but is irrational. The voting doesn't give the voter anything.

The analogy is invalid.
 

Intolerable

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Hm? Who "wins" the voting?

The lottery may be a win at random but is irrational. The voting doesn't give the voter anything.

The analogy is invalid.

The people win. By getting the candidate they vote for.

The belief that voting doesn't work because my guy didn't win is not taking into account the sheer number of voters and the number of things wrong with the popular vote.

To the OPs point, the reason Bush and Clinton always seem to be in the running is because the majority of people voting tend to vote for those names. It isn't anymore complicated than that.
 

Jennywocky

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IQ tests? You know they are slanted towards particular demographics, correct?

So now we have to vote on which IQ test to use.
Or the party in power picks the test criteria that will cater to their side.

(Hello, Solution -- welcome to Square One.)
 

Intolerable

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IQ tests? You know they are slanted towards particular demographics, correct?

When West Africans are voting in the American general election you may have something to worry about. Otherwise, the distinction isn't significant.

So now we have to vote on which IQ test to use.
Or the party in power picks the test criteria that will cater to their side.

It isn't that complicated. What we have today are ballot chasers trying to determine from a stack of votes how many were cast illegally by voting in multiple districts ( same people ), dead votes and illegal votes.

Personally I prefer to keep it simple. You either know the political spectrum well ( and can apply that knowledge ) or you don't. I'd rather people who are truly indifferent stay home instead of rallying to some silly notion of party.
 

Jennywocky

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When West Africans are voting in the American general election you may have something to worry about. Otherwise, the distinction isn't significant.



It isn't that complicated. What we have today are ballot chasers trying to determine from a stack of votes how many were cast illegally by voting in multiple districts ( same people ), dead votes and illegal votes.

Personally I prefer to keep it simple. You either know the political spectrum well ( and can apply that knowledge ) or you don't. I'd rather people who are truly indifferent stay home instead of rallying to some silly notion of party.

Well, of course on the latter. But that's a different issue than using a slanted test to determine who is "worthy" enough to cast a vote. It sounds like you are more perturbed (from a few of your posts) about people who just vote straight party line out of allegiance,/tribal instincts; but this solution you're offering is a bit flawed in and of itself.
 

Brontosaurie

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The people win. By getting the candidate they vote for.

The belief that voting doesn't work because my guy didn't win is not taking into account the sheer number of voters and the number of things wrong with the popular vote.

To the OPs point, the reason Bush and Clinton always seem to be in the running is because the majority of people voting tend to vote for those names. It isn't anymore complicated than that.

We are not talking about the people. We are talking about an individual decision.

Bolded part is the sole topic of this thread but sure man, people have been missing that bit and your keen wisdom is greatly appreciated.
 

Intolerable

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Well, of course on the latter. But that's a different issue than using a slanted test to determine who is "worthy" enough to cast a vote. It sounds like you are more perturbed (from a few of your posts) about people who just vote straight party line out of allegiance,/tribal instincts; but this solution you're offering is a bit flawed in and of itself.

Every system has flaws.

Do you think a democracy has fewer flaws than a meritocracy?
 

420MuNkEy

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Every system has flaws.

Do you think a democracy has fewer flaws than a meritocracy?
The problem is with actually creating a meritocracy, not the concept of a meritocracy itself. You may as well be proposing a utopia to solve the problems, hoping that the loose stepping stones you lay down will be enough to support the weight of the transition and with everyone else simply having faith that you put them down in the right place.

This is how some people view socialism, communism, anarchism, etc. As stepping stones to the goal of utopia. What you're proposing is <some undefined IQ test> as a stepping stone to a meritocracy. That stone is very loose and probably not in the right place.
 

Intolerable

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The problem is with actually creating a meritocracy, not the concept of a meritocracy itself. You may as well be proposing a utopia to solve the problems, hoping that the loose stepping stones you lay down will be enough to support the weight of the transition and with everyone else simply having faith that you put them down in the right place.

This is how some people view socialism, communism, anarchism, etc. As stepping stones to the goal of utopia. What you're proposing is <some undefined IQ test> as a stepping stone to a meritocracy. That stone is very loose and probably not in the right place.

I don't think a meritocracy makes everyone happy. Nor do I think a meritocracy is without flaws.

I think assuming it can defy those odds is a mistake. As stated earlier by someone else every human system is still human.

I assert however that a meritocracy is the very best we can do.

As for the implementation of an IQ test I think the word IQ scares people too much. A true IQ test measures your potential, not your knowledge. An IQ test wouldn't be the sole factor in determining your right to vote. It would be one of the factors.

Really think about what we're discussing. How many people do you know who vote because they feel compelled to? Or people who vote that you know for a fact know nothing about the system who are only voting along party lines?

Does a system truly need that kind of vote to remain healthy?
 

420MuNkEy

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I don't think a meritocracy makes everyone happy. Nor do I think a meritocracy is without flaws.

I think assuming it can defy those odds is a mistake. As stated earlier by someone else every human system is still human.

I assert however that a meritocracy is the very best we can do.

As for the implementation of an IQ test I think the word IQ scares people too much. A true IQ test measures your potential, not your knowledge. An IQ test wouldn't be the sole factor in determining your right to vote. It would be one of the factors.

Really think about what we're discussing. How many people do you know who vote because they feel compelled to? Or people who vote that you know for a fact know nothing about the system who are only voting along party lines?

Does a system truly need that kind of vote to remain healthy?
I think you're misunderstanding the comparison. I'm not equating meritocracy to utopia, I'm comparing them as goals.

You're jumping straight to meritocracy from just the idea of some nebulous IQ test. The IQ test does not necessarily lead to a meritocracy. Your idea doesn't scare me, I just don't think it's robust and is a bit misguided.

I would be all in favor of a meritocracy, but I don't think what you've proposed is a way to get there.
 

Brontosaurie

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When you lose an argument, you just drop it and no one will notice. That's how it goes.

Why is "Oh, ok, you're right" so hard for people?
 

Intolerable

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The IQ test does not necessarily lead to a meritocracy.

Supposing it does not then it can be safely assumed the implementation failed. Unless you believe IQ tests to be so flawed as to not be a true gauge of intelligence. In that case I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
 

420MuNkEy

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Supposing it does not then it can be safely assumed the implementation failed. Unless you believe IQ tests to be so flawed as to not be a true gauge of intelligence. In that case I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
I disagree that "intelligence" is a singular thing that's quantifiable. You can be a certifiable genius with no political sense at all. Humans are a complicated mess of skills and talents. Some, in aggregate, more skilled/talented than others. The aggregate doesn't mean a whole lot when trying to gauge their aptitude for a particular thing.

When it comes to developing a specific test to gauge "political aptitude", it would likely be skewed in favor of the political leanings of the creators. So, if designed by liberals, the liberal ideas would be "more correct" than conservative ideas. Even if you attempt to divorce this from ideology by attempting to measure the level of understanding of various political philosophies, a broad understanding of various philosophies doesn't mean the one the person subscribes to is rational or correct. Such an attempt would also be subject to more subtle bias, probably manifesting itself in particular interpretations of history that are "correct" and not up for debate.

All of this is ignoring the voting system itself, which would have to be totally reformed for a vote to fundamentally be anything more than just a suggestion.
 

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Even if you attempt to divorce this from ideology by attempting to measure the level of understanding of various political philosophies, a broad understanding of various philosophies doesn't mean the one the person subscribes to is rational or correct. Such an attempt would also be subject to more subtle bias, probably manifesting itself in particular interpretations of history that are "correct" and not up for debate.

You could include questions from both ideologies. It won't really keep dumb people from voting but it would at least make sure that people do a little research or have a basic knowledge of things so that the at least have the foundation required for wise decisions.
 

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Making an IQ requirement of 90plus would eliminate a number of black votes.
 

420MuNkEy

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You could include questions from both ideologies. It won't really keep dumb people from voting but it would at least make sure that people do a little research or have a basic knowledge of things so that the at least have the foundation required for wise decisions.
I believe that's what I said...
 

Intolerable

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I disagree that "intelligence" is a singular thing that's quantifiable. You can be a certifiable genius with no political sense at all. Humans are a complicated mess of skills and talents. Some, in aggregate, more skilled/talented than others. The aggregate doesn't mean a whole lot when trying to gauge their aptitude for a particular thing.

True but all this means is that people who aren't true critical thinkers ( or people who genuinely can't be bothered to think critically ) will not be voting. I personally don't have a problem with that. Going so far as to say yes, it is quite alright that some MENSA-level dickhead gets a vote and Joe Schmo doesn't. He represents a small fragment of society anyway.

We need to be clear about this. The popular vote is wrong because it encourages the masses of people with no political sense to vote. In some cases not just encouragement but persuasion and in some force!

When it comes to developing a specific test to gauge "political aptitude", it would likely be skewed in favor of the political leanings of the creators. So, if designed by liberals, the liberal ideas would be "more correct" than conservative ideas. Even if you attempt to divorce this from ideology by attempting to measure the level of understanding of various political philosophies, a broad understanding of various philosophies doesn't mean the one the person subscribes to is rational or correct. Such an attempt would also be subject to more subtle bias, probably manifesting itself in particular interpretations of history that are "correct" and not up for debate.

All of this is ignoring the voting system itself, which would have to be totally reformed for a vote to fundamentally be anything more than just a suggestion.

Well that isn't a political aptitude test. That is a political leaning test. A personality or moral compass test at best.

Political aptitude isn't about which liberal policy you like more than a conservative one. Political aptitude is knowing who the candidates are, knowing how they vote ( if they have in the past ), knowing the three branches of government, the constitution, etc.

It is a way to see how much of the republic you truly understand. I suspect a lot of people that call America a democracy for example would fail an aptitude test.
 

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@Intolerable:

While I appreciate the intent behind the idea, I don't think forcing people to take a test before they vote is going to be of much help in ensuring that we elect the best people for the job. The upside of democracy is that it enacts changes slowly and incrementally, with much disagreement and debate in the process. This prevents totalitarian initiatives that can lead to disaster (think of the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution in China for instance, tens of millions lost their lives).

The downside, as you said, is that the masses get to have a say, and unfortunately, few of them (myself included) are well-versed in the art and science of statecraft. Moreover, they don't have all the facts at their disposal, even if those facts are publicly available. For example, while many of us would like to see various economic policy changes, most of us do not know what most economists believe, and until we're sitting in the Oval Office, it's impossible to know what is politically feasible and what is not.

Ruling a nation (or state) well requires having knowledge of politics, law, finance, economics, military strategy, culture, and intelligence. Ideally the candidate possesses this knowledge himself (or herself), and also has an excellent team of advisors in all of those domains and others. Today, that's expecting too much. :(

The solution to the problem is campaign finance reform. No candidate should ever be allowed to spend billions of dollars as they do today. Ideally, every candidate would get the same amount of campaign money, TV coverage, and we, the people, would watch many live debates on TV. The election cycle should also be much shorter...say 1 month.

Spending billions of dollars and devoting thousands of hours to what amounts to a popularity contest every 4 years is a colossal waste of resources.
 

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@Intolerable:

While I appreciate the intent behind the idea, I don't think forcing people to take a test before they vote is going to be of much help in ensuring that we elect the best people for the job. The upside of democracy is that it enacts changes slowly and incrementally, with much disagreement and debate in the process. This prevents totalitarian initiatives that can lead to disaster (think of the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution in China for instance, tens of millions lost their lives).

It may be that the only people who vote are those in the vein of politics and law. Ironically these are also the people who are staunch conservatives on things like gun rights. So I really have no problem with that.

It's when you cross that line into Joe Schmo territory who sees a Clinton or a Bush and suffers from delusions about who those people are in the grand scheme of things. Purely through indifference to the structure or inability to perceive it for what it really is.

In regards to democracy I encourage you to read this:

http://listverse.com/2013/06/16/10-reasons-why-democracy-doesnt-work/


The downside, as you said, is that the masses get to have a say, and unfortunately, few of them (myself included) are well-versed in the art and science of statecraft. Moreover, they don't have all the facts at their disposal, even if those facts are publicly available. For example, while many of us would like to see various economic policy changes, most of us do not know what most economists believe, and until we're sitting in the Oval Office, it's impossible to know what is politically feasible and what is not.
Actually I don't think this is true. You can be in the know. Today there is no impetus to being in the know.

The populist vote encourages me to not read up on the republic, not know the candidates very well and yet still vote because the resistance to casting that vote is at zero.

If I had to actually know what was going on to get a chance to vote, more people would read up on the republic and the candidates. This means they would be casting a genuine well thought out vote. I see no problem with this.

Those of us who can't be bothered, won't. I see no problem with that either.

Ruling a nation (or state) well requires having knowledge of politics, law, finance, economics, military strategy, culture, and intelligence. Ideally the candidate possesses this knowledge himself (or herself), and also has an excellent team of advisors in all of those domains and others. Today, that's expecting too much. :(

The solution to the problem is campaign finance reform. No candidate should ever be allowed to spend billions of dollars as they do today. Ideally, every candidate would get the same amount of campaign money, TV coverage, and we, the people, would watch many live debates on TV. The election cycle should also be much shorter...say 1 month.

Spending billions of dollars and devoting thousands of hours to what amounts to a popularity contest every 4 years is a colossal waste of resources.
Campaign finance reform is not the solution to the problem. The real problem is celebrity worship in politics and that can only be solved by abolishing the right to vote as it exists today and replacing it with a vote you need to earn.

Guys like Rand Paul and his father are not disliked because they have smaller political contributions. They're disliked because the majority of people do not like their views on the world. It can't be stated any simpler than that.

Look at how middle of the road Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton are. Find a candidate more middle of the road than those two and both billionaires and Joe Schmo will be right there supporting that candidate.
 
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Brontosaurie

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You should quote me and admit you were wrong before replying to others. Now you are looking dumb.

I'm looking dumb by giving a shit but it's cool. Elephants.
 

Inquisitor

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Campaign finance reform is not the solution to the problem. The real problem is celebrity worship in politics and that can only be solved by abolishing the right to vote as it exists today and replacing it with a vote you need to earn.

Guys like Rand Paul and his father are not disliked because they have smaller political contributions. They're disliked because the majority of people do not like their views on the world. It can't be stated any simpler than that.

Point taken. Who is going to write the "voting test?" What political views should be on it? Even if people are well-informed, they're not immune to demagoguery.

As for Rand Paul and Ron Paul being disliked. I would say this is patently false. They have a core group of very loyal supporters. The problem is they are portrayed as extremists in the media.

Campaign finance reform is the solution b/c then nobody gets to become a celebrity.
 

Intolerable

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Point taken. Who is going to write the "voting test?" What political views should be on it? Even if people are well-informed, they're not immune to demagoguery.

You're still thinking of a political leanings test. It is not about what you like and don't like. It isn't an interview for your beliefs.

It is a plain as day factual understanding of the system, its origins and the intent of its framing.

Any academic institution can write a political aptitude test that steers towards objective truths in how the system came to be and what the current candidates represent. So long as they remember to leave things like 'we believe' and 'we feel' out of the testing process.

As for Rand Paul and Ron Paul being disliked. I would say this is patently false. They have a core group of very loyal supporters. The problem is they are portrayed as extremists in the media.

Perspective matters. In the 2012 elections, Obama had a grand total of 65,899,660 votes cast for him.

Think about that number for a moment. Ron Paul could draw a crowd yes but near 66 million? Not even close.

Romney for his part had 60,932,152 votes. Not too shabby there either.

There is the vocal minority and then there is the vast majority of people who fall closer to the center of the political spectrum. Married, career men and women who don't typically have the time for the political banter.

Most of Ron Paul's supporters are in the 3% and the college age crowd. He got 2% of the vote.

It's like explaining to someone the density difference between New York, New York and Texas' 14th district. They are incomparable and you can only soak that in by being there.

Campaign finance reform is the solution b/c then nobody gets to become a celebrity.

Billionaires don't latch onto someone the majority don't like. Think of it this way. They are investors. Good investors don't back the lame horse in a race.

Take away the money and Obama still has a flashy smile and a community organizer message that Joe Schmo can't resist.
 

420MuNkEy

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It is a plain as day factual understanding of the system, its origins and the intent of its framing.
Fuck, you'll still get people who "know" what they're talking about say the second amendment means that it's the militia that has the right to keep and bear arms, despite Heller.

Nowhere else in the Constitution does a "right" attributed to "the people" refer to anything other than an individual right. What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention "the people," the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset. This contrasts markedly with the phrase "the militia" in the prefatory clause. As we will describe below, the "militia" in colonial America consisted of a subset of "the people"— those who were male, able bodied, and within a certain age range. Reading the Second Amendment as protecting only the right to "keep and bear Arms" in an organized militia therefore fits poorly with the operative clause’s description of the holder of that right as "the people"

And that's something that's already been clarified rather recently. There's a bunch of stuff that hasn't.

Point being, as simple as it may sound, what you're asking for is actually unrealistic without huge bias.

Perspective matters. In the 2012 elections, Obama had a grand total of 65,899,660 votes cast for him.

Think about that number for a moment. Ron Paul could draw a crowd yes but near 66 million? Not even close.

Romney for his part had 60,932,152 votes. Not too shabby there either.

There is the vocal minority and then there is the vast majority of people who fall closer to the center of the political spectrum. Married, career men and women who don't typically have the time for the political banter.

Most of Ron Paul's supporters are in the 3% and the college age crowd. He got 2% of the vote.

It's like explaining to someone the density difference between New York, New York and Texas' 14th district. They are incomparable and you can only soak that in by being there.
Without trying to sound like I'm repeating myself, the number of votes Ron Paul got is a terrible way to gauge his reach. We have a FPTP system which pits tactical votes against symbolic votes, and guess what, tactical wins. People won't "throw their vote" away on a candidate they know won't win, so they'll put it towards the one they hate the least that actually has a chance. All of this is ignoring the fact that votes are fundamentally nothing more than suggestions, but regardless, people vote tactically, the behavior of tactical voting (which is extremely common) will significantly affect the actual numbers you see.
 

Inquisitor

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You're still thinking of a political leanings test. It is not about what you like and don't like. It isn't an interview for your beliefs.

It is a plain as day factual understanding of the system, its origins and the intent of its framing.

Any academic institution can write a political aptitude test that steers towards objective truths in how the system came to be and what the current candidates represent. So long as they remember to leave things like 'we believe' and 'we feel' out of the testing process.

I understand what you're saying now. It's not a bad idea.

So let's say you mandate everyone take the test who wants to vote. It will be challenging to write such a test because you have to make it intelligible to everyone in the country. It should be quite detailed and fairly long for maximum effect. Test takers have to know about each candidate's platform and all the individual planks as well. The test has to be worded in completely unbiased language by a third-party independent agency. It's not enough to just test whether people understand the platform though, they also have to be aware of the potential ramifications of each proposed policy. So you'll need to add in the current consensus of academic economists for example concerning each proposed change to health care reform. You'll also need to summarize what most military/foreign policy experts believe vis-a-vis ISIS. It's getting complex really quickly...

I am skeptical as to whether or not Joe Schmo would actually be able to understand all of these things. I don't even understand half of it, and I went to an elite university with one of the top economics departments in the country. It might work, but politically, I think it's infeasible.

I think the result would be a vehement backlash. The less-educated among us would complain that this test favored highly educated people only. Also, what would be the cutoff in terms of pass/fail? You can bet that there would be tons of lobbying to push that number as far down as possible. The democrats rely on the lowest strata to get votes, so you're basically implementing a measure that risks denying these people the chance to vote.

Perspective matters. In the 2012 elections, Obama had a grand total of 65,899,660 votes cast for him.

Think about that number for a moment. Ron Paul could draw a crowd yes but near 66 million? Not even close.

Romney for his part had 60,932,152 votes. Not too shabby there either.

There is the vocal minority and then there is the vast majority of people who fall closer to the center of the political spectrum. Married, career men and women who don't typically have the time for the political banter.

Most of Ron Paul's supporters are in the 3% and the college age crowd. He got 2% of the vote.

Yes no doubt about that. But the media still portrayed him as an extremist. He actually got nearly 1.2 million votes in the GOP primary.

Paul raised $34.6 million to Obama's $745 million.

Billionaires don't latch onto someone the majority don't like. Think of it this way. They are investors. Good investors don't back the lame horse in a race.

Take away the money and Obama still has a flashy smile and a community organizer message that Joe Schmo can't resist.

Yes, this is true. Obama knows exactly what focus-group-approved things to say to appeal to the greatest common denominator. Paul never even pretended to try to do that.
 

420MuNkEy

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I think the only sort of voting "test" that would actually be practical would be a political leanings test taken by both the candidates and the "voters" (instead of casting a vote). Your "vote" would be cast to the candidate whose results you most closely matched, weighted by your selected importance of each issue. Ideally this system would also be instant run-off, so that there's no "tactical answering" incentive.

Obviously this has its own issues with complexity and bias, but I think they're reduced when it's not a pass/fail binary. This would also help to resolve the campaign finance issue by refocusing attention to the politics, rather than the celebrity. Obviously money can still be used to push pure politics rather than an individual, but I think this is a much harder sell. I think the focus on politics would mildly reduce the issue of stupid voters as well, though, as far as I can tell, this issue has no realistic solution anyway.
 

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Fuck, you'll still get people who "know" what they're talking about say the second amendment means that it's the militia that has the right to keep and bear arms, despite Heller.

Sure, it has a chance to veer off into political leanings. Not saying it doesn't.

You need people to proof read questions. Like any test. If it can come off as ambiguous it should be rephrased in such a way that it cannot be.

Ever take an Art history class in college? I'm thinking of a test like those. No questions exist asking you what you thought of the work. They're worded very carefully to address only historical facts about it. Switching what do you believe about X with what did Y believe about X. Projecting the question onto a historical figure provides the impetus for the test taker to actually do the research.


Without trying to sound like I'm repeating myself, the number of votes Ron Paul got is a terrible way to gauge his reach. We have a FPTP system which pits tactical votes against symbolic votes, and guess what, tactical wins. People won't "throw their vote" away on a candidate they know won't win, so they'll put it towards the one they hate the least that actually has a chance. All of this is ignoring the fact that votes are fundamentally nothing more than suggestions, but regardless, people vote tactically, the behavior of tactical voting (which is extremely common) will significantly affect the actual numbers you see.

I think you'd be surprised by the number of people who would never vote for a candidate like Ron Paul. Again this is a matter of perspective. It is hard to fathom 100 million plus voters. A town hall is nothing compared to that. Also a lot of people don't turn out until the main event. Just like in sports.

Putting it in planetary terms, think the difference between Earth and the Sun. A lot of us love Ron Paul but when push comes to shove, MANY people will fail a moral compass test that tests for Libertarian status. I've done this with online buddies to see who would actually score high libertarian and few of us ever did. When I say few I mean 1 or 2 out of 20.

Most people will score high in caring, thoughtfulness, pure, etc. Which is the antithesis of libertarian. To be a libertarian you have to tolerate some pretty heinous things. So most people fail to meet that criteria. Not just in a test but practically speaking as well. Ron Paul scares the bejeezus out of them even if he is right most of the time.
 

Intolerable

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I understand what you're saying now. It's not a bad idea.

So let's say you mandate everyone take the test who wants to vote. It will be challenging to write such a test because you have to make it intelligible to everyone in the country. It should be quite detailed and fairly long for maximum effect. Test takers have to know about each candidate's platform and all the individual planks as well. The test has to be worded in completely unbiased language by a third-party independent agency. It's not enough to just test whether people understand the platform though, they also have to be aware of the potential ramifications of each proposed policy. So you'll need to add in the current consensus of academic economists for example concerning each proposed change to health care reform. You'll also need to summarize what most military/foreign policy experts believe vis-a-vis ISIS. It's getting complex really quickly...

I am skeptical as to whether or not Joe Schmo would actually be able to understand all of these things. I don't even understand half of it, and I went to an elite university with one of the top economics departments in the country. It might work, but politically, I think it's infeasible.

I think the result would be a vehement backlash. The less-educated among us would complain that this test favored highly educated people only. Also, what would be the cutoff in terms of pass/fail? You can bet that there would be tons of lobbying to push that number as far down as possible. The democrats rely on the lowest strata to get votes, so you're basically implementing a measure that risks denying these people the chance to vote.

I think we've established at the very least that a proof-reader and editor would be needed on the questions and answers. Also, multiple choice not written response. Everything possible to reduce the ambiguity of a test will be needed.

Keeping some basic principles in mind it should be feasible to create something that isn't ambiguous.

Also, I don't think giving someone three or four very difficult questions makes sense. Broaden the questions. Keep the test about 20 minutes in length. To about 20 questions. No timer.

Yes no doubt about that. But the media still portrayed him as an extremist. He actually got nearly 1.2 million votes in the GOP primary.

Paul raised $34.6 million to Obama's $745 million.



Yes, this is true. Obama knows exactly what focus-group-approved things to say to appeal to the greatest common denominator. Paul never even pretended to try to do that.

Yep. That's the problem with honesty and why we get nothing but dishonest jerkoffs in politics.

It disgusts me to watch Hillary Clinton. She stands in front of a podium and hits the keywords that register with her demographic every time. Woman, poor, woman, poor, woman, poor, etc.

And the masses eat it like candy. Never mind that she's about as far from the proletariat (and women) as you can possibly be. Nonetheless they eat it and ask for more.

Joe Schmo is the problem when it comes to voting.
 

Rualani

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Gandhis paradox - “Nothing you do as an individual matters, but it is vitally important you do it anyway.”

As for the feelings towards the futility of Democracy... That's justified. We still need to make our voices heard if the situation is to be changed. Apathy will just let things continue as they are.

I agree with the notion that participating in political activism is a good way to have an increased effect. That does not mean one shouldn't vote. It means that there is extra room for action should one choose to make use of it.

As for solutions.
http://www.fairvote.org/ We need to get rid of the spoiler effect. If I want to vote Libertarian, Green Party, etc... It should be just fine for me to do so.

https://represent.us/ Unwinding 40 years of our opinions being ignored will be difficult.
 

420MuNkEy

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Sure, it has a chance to veer off into political leanings. Not saying it doesn't.

You need people to proof read questions. Like any test. If it can come off as ambiguous it should be rephrased in such a way that it cannot be.

Ever take an Art history class in college? I'm thinking of a test like those. No questions exist asking you what you thought of the work. They're worded very carefully to address only historical facts about it. Switching what do you believe about X with what did Y believe about X. Projecting the question onto a historical figure provides the impetus for the test taker to actually do the research.
Who gets to determine the presence of bias? With art history, the opinion of the people being tested doesn't really matter. The person writing the questions has very little incentive to favor their particular interpretation of the work. This is an unfair analogy.



I think you'd be surprised by the number of people who would never vote for a candidate like Ron Paul. Again this is a matter of perspective. It is hard to fathom 100 million plus voters. A town hall is nothing compared to that. Also a lot of people don't turn out until the main event. Just like in sports.

Putting it in planetary terms, think the difference between Earth and the Sun. A lot of us love Ron Paul but when push comes to shove, MANY people will fail a moral compass test that tests for Libertarian status. I've done this with online buddies to see who would actually score high libertarian and few of us ever did. When I say few I mean 1 or 2 out of 20.

Most people will score high in caring, thoughtfulness, pure, etc. Which is the antithesis of libertarian. To be a libertarian you have to tolerate some pretty heinous things. So most people fail to meet that criteria. Not just in a test but practically speaking as well. Ron Paul scares the bejeezus out of them even if he is right most of the time.
I think you're harping a bit too much on the politics of a placeholder 3rd party candidate and missing the larger issue, which is tactical voting.
 

Intolerable

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Who gets to determine the presence of bias? With art history, the opinion of the people being tested doesn't really matter. The person writing the questions has very little incentive to favor their particular interpretation of the work. This is an unfair analogy.

The same is true of any historically accurate set of questions. It isn't a test of beliefs but what is known factually and historically.

The people writing the tests and overseeing the writing of it should probably be historians. It would only make sense.

I think you're harping a bit too much on the politics of a placeholder 3rd party candidate and missing the larger issue, which is tactical voting.

Do you still think even a tenth of the voting population wants a Ron Paul type president?
 

420MuNkEy

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The same is true of any historically accurate set of questions. It isn't a test of beliefs but what is known factually and historically.

The people writing the tests and overseeing the writing of it should probably be historians. It would only make sense.
Who gets to define "historically accurate"? Is it majority rule? What if the majority hold a factually inaccurate view of history? What if there's conflicting evidence?

Historical events aren't as clear cut and clean as many like to think.

Do you still think even a tenth of the voting population wants a Ron Paul type president?
That is completely irrelevant to my point. I'm deliberately not giving you an answer, because whether yes or no, it's irrelevant. You may as well be asking me my favorite color.

I think your focus on a "Ron Paul" may be driven by the fundamental misunderstanding that you think I think Ron Paul would have won if people weren't afraid to vote for him. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it obfuscates the actual political desires of the people, undervaluing 3rd party candidates and overvaluing realistic ones. You can sit there and say "well, no one would vote for <insert 3rd party candidate> anyway", but you don't really know that until a symbolic vote can be cast without sacrificing the tactical.

We don't have enough information to know how much support Ron Paul would have had. Whether or not it was enough to win the popular vote is besides the point, which is that it's because of our current system that we don't actually know what people want.
 

Intolerable

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Who gets to define "historically accurate"? Is it majority rule? What if the majority hold a factually inaccurate view of history? What if there's conflicting evidence?

Historians would be the best people to determine what is historically accurate. I'm talking about people specifically learned in the history of our republic.

Historical events aren't as clear cut and clean as many like to think.
What isn't clear cut about the founding of this republic? What isn't clear about a politicians voting record? You are citing something myself and others may not be aware of here. Be specific.


That is completely irrelevant to my point. I'm deliberately not giving you an answer, because whether yes or no, it's irrelevant. You may as well be asking me my favorite color.

I think your focus on a "Ron Paul" may be driven by the fundamental misunderstanding that you think I think Ron Paul would have won if people weren't afraid to vote for him. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it obfuscates the actual political desires of the people, undervaluing 3rd party candidates and overvaluing realistic ones. You can sit there and say "well, no one would vote for <insert 3rd party candidate> anyway", but you don't really know that until a symbolic vote can be cast without sacrificing the tactical.

We don't have enough information to know how much support Ron Paul would have had. Whether or not it was enough to win the popular vote is besides the point, which is that it's because of our current system that we don't actually know what people want.
We do have enough information. Put the same question to ten people ( are you alright with incest being legal? for example ) and maybe one of those ten people will say yes. That is your Libertarian.

As stated to be Libertarian you have to accept things 'kind' and 'pure' people would be very upset with. The vast majority of people identify as kind and then some identify as pure. A helluva lot more than Libertarian.
 
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420MuNkEy

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Historians would be the best people to determine what is historically accurate. I'm talking about people specifically learned in the history of our republic.

What isn't clear cut about the founding of this republic? What isn't clear about a politicians voting record? You are citing something myself and others may not be aware of here. Be specific.
There are differing historical interpretations among historians. Which of these are accepted as "true"?

See some stuff written by the historian Howard Zinn. The fact that there's different interpretations of American history isn't news to most people who bothered to look into the subject at all beyond what they were told in school.

We do enough information. Put the same question to ten people ( are you alright with incest being legal? for example ) and maybe one of those ten people will say yes. That is your Libertarian.

As stated to be Libertarian you have to accept things 'kind' and 'pure' people would be very upset with. The vast majority of people identify as kind and then some identify as pure. A helluva lot more than Libertarian.
Okay, seriously, what the fuck dude? You have to be trolling at this point, as I could not make it any clearer that it's not about my personal politics or the politics of any individual 3rd party candidate. Why the fuck do you keep coming back to this? I think I've been more than patient, explaining my point and deliberately taking the time to underline what I wasn't talking about, but you just seem to overlook all of that and keep going back to a single candidate/political philosophy. Even with a given political philosophy, individual candidates are going to espouse it to varying degrees and/or with different interpretations.

It's not about the fucking politics.
 

Intolerable

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There are differing historical interpretations among historians. Which of these are accepted as "true"?

See some stuff written by the historian Howard Zinn. The fact that there's different interpretations of American history isn't news to most people who bothered to look into the subject at all beyond what they were told in school.

Howard Zinn wrote period pieces that are meant to gauge the feelings of the people at the time. Of course people will find exception with them. That is not the history I have been referring to. I am talking specifically about the history of this republic. Not its people or what its people might have thought mattered at the time.


Okay, seriously, what the fuck dude? You have to be trolling at this point, as I could not make it any clearer that it's not about my personal politics or the politics of any individual 3rd party candidate. Why the fuck do you keep coming back to this? I think I've been more than patient, explaining my point and deliberately taking the time to underline what I wasn't talking about, but you just seem to overlook all of that and keep going back to a single candidate/political philosophy. Even with a given political philosophy, individual candidates are going to espouse it to varying degrees and/or with different interpretations.

It's not about the fucking politics.
Tactical voting is what you put forth as the reason why voting is a fallacy. Specifically the notion that people get into the race to vote for the least evil of the bunch.

What I'm telling you is that with or without tactical voting we get a leader the majority of people are alright with. A moderate on one side or the other is the least evil on either side to the moderate majority.

Mind, the opinion of the moderate majority is bullshit seeing the majority don't know shit about politics nor about the people they are electing. My argument isn't whether or not I support the current system. I hope I've made that clear at least.
 

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The point of meritocracy is that the person who is best for the job does the job. And what does it mean for a person to be the best person for the job of a congressman or a senator or the president? Well specifically it is to get for the people the best deals and options that benefit them the most. To do this they must follow policies. The people who have the best policies and work with others to get them done are the best for the job. And how do we know who is best to vote for? Well now that we have the internet we can research the candidates. And soon artificial intelligence will help people do research better. Artificial intelligence will profile candidates and their policies with historical data.

People cannot make the right decisions if they have the wrong information. A.I. will have the right information based on science and psychology. Eventually we won't need politicians anymore because we will be making our own decisions collectively and decentralized. A problem will be not letting companies like Microsoft, Google and Facebook abuse our data. A.I. is not some paper test that is old and stupid. It (A.I.) is real time question and answer devices that will understand what it is that we want.

btw I have decided to stop drinking soda, soon A.I. will tell people soda is not healthy and soda companies will lose half their business. Many people will lose their soda jobs, half will remain sick because they will still drink soda and half will get advise where to find healthy food.

I found alkaline water for $1.29 a gallon at the healthfood store.

Hydrate high ph 9+
 

420MuNkEy

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Howard Zinn wrote period pieces that are meant to gauge the feelings of the people at the time. Of course people will find exception with them. That is not the history I have been referring to. I am talking specifically about the history of this republic. Not its people or what its people might have thought mattered at the time.
Uh... Howard Zinn did write specifically (though not exclusively) about the history of the American Republic. I don't see how you could possibly attempt to disconnect people and motives from an entire revolution. What sort of history are you talking about if not that of people doing things, the way they are doing those things, and the reason they are doing those things?

Regardless, this is just one example. There are plenty of others. It's not hard to find different interpretations of just about any historical event from genuine historians, though I wouldn't be surprised to see you just shift the goal posts again and say "no, that interpretation doesn't count because reasons".

So, I'll ask again: Who? Who gets to decide? As you've said, it's not historians who have any interest in people or the motives for those people's actions, so who does that leave? Beyond this, why should motive be disregarded? What makes that historically invalid? Why do you get to just decide what does and does not matter to history?


Tactical voting is what you put forth as the reason why voting is a fallacy.
No, it's not. You've either misunderstood me or are deliberately misrepresenting my position. I'll repeat myself once more: tactical voting obfuscates the desires the people. That is my problem with it. It is not the reason voting is a "fallacy" (though, it is a factor in the meaninglessness of votes, but that's completely irrelevant to this context).

What I'm telling you is that with or without tactical voting we get a leader the majority of people are alright with. A moderate on one side or the other is the least evil on either side to the moderate majority.
Do you even realize how mathematically ridiculous this statement is? If there's 4 candidates, and one of them gets 28% and the rest get 24% each, the majority does not favor that winner. Significantly less than half do. This is tempered a bit by tactical voting, but not entirely and at the cost of sacrificing the symbolic vote. Without the symbolic vote, there's insufficient data to make a determination whether or not the public is "alright" with the winner.

Mind, the opinion of the moderate majority is bullshit seeing the majority don't know shit about politics nor about the people they are electing. My argument isn't whether or not I support the current system. I hope I've made that clear at least.
Your argument seems to be in favor of some sort of (ill-defined) historical test that grants the right to vote coupled with a (peculiar) objection to my assertion that tactical voting renders the genuine desires of the electorate obscured by pitting tactical votes against symbolic votes.

If I've mischaracterized your position, please let me know.
 
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