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Voting is a complete fallacy

Black Rose

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It does not matter what is on the paper test.
The A.I. will help them cheat on it anyway.
Because the A.I. can read wikipedia.
It is a historical fact that Noah's Ark is a fairy tail. :cool:
During the last ice age sea levels dropped then rose 300 feet.
 

Intolerable

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Uh... Howard Zinn did write specifically (though not exclusively) about the history of the American Republic. I don't see how you could possibly attempt to disconnect people and motives from an entire revolution. What sort of history are you talking about if not that of people doing things, the way they are doing those things, and the reason they are doing those things?

Regardless, this is just one example. There are plenty of others. It's not hard to find different interpretations of just about any historical event from genuine historians, though I wouldn't be surprised to see you just shift the goal posts again and say "no, that interpretation doesn't count because reasons".

So, I'll ask again: Who? Who gets to decide? As you've said, it's not historians who have any interest in people or the motives for those people's actions, so who does that leave? Beyond this, why should motive be disregarded? What makes that historically invalid? Why do you get to just decide what does and does not matter to history?

You can disconnect it because one has nothing to do with the other. There is the potential for what the people believed at the time and then what the leaders of the republic decided at the time and why they decided it.

You can find explanations following most important court cases throughout our written history. Things like that cannot be gamed by a political activist posing as a historian.

No, it's not. You've either misunderstood me or are deliberately misrepresenting my position. I'll repeat myself once more: tactical voting obfuscates the desires the people. That is my problem with it. It is not the reason voting is a "fallacy" (though, it is a factor in the meaninglessness of votes, but that's completely irrelevant to this context).

What the hell is the point in saying it obfuscates the vote and then saying it is irrelevant in this context?

The net result still comes back to voting being pointless.

Do you even realize how mathematically ridiculous this statement is? If there's 4 candidates, and one of them gets 28% and the rest get 24% each, the majority does not favor that winner. Significantly less than half do. This is tempered a bit by tactical voting, but not entirely and at the cost of sacrificing the symbolic vote. Without the symbolic vote, there's insufficient data to make a determination whether or not the public is "alright" with the winner.

Except we don't run four candidates in the general election that way.

We whittle them down to two with the occasional jackass(es) coming in as the third wheel.

In each poll / election the people get to choose of the available candidates who their lesser evil is. If that isn't a symbolic choice I don't know what is.

Nothing here is obfuscated. The people voted. The people got what they wanted ( or didn't want ). Voting because you don't want something is the same as voting because you want something. Don't you get that?

Your argument seems to be in favor of some sort of (ill-defined) historical test that grants the right to vote coupled with a (peculiar) objection to my assertion that tactical voting renders the genuine desires of the electorate obscured by pitting tactical votes against symbolic votes.

So it is beyond us as a people to make a historically accurate test on the republic. Got it.

Anything more you want to waste my time on?
 

Black Rose

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Ron and Rand Paul are not viable candidates but the reason they were brought up was that just because they received 2% of the vote does not mean only 2% are pro Ron and Rand Paul.
 

Intolerable

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Ron and Rand Paul are not viable candidates but the reason they were brought up was that just because they received 2% of the vote does not mean only 2% are pro Ron and Rand Paul.

We'd can split hairs on that 2% all day. Maybe it is 2% and maybe it is 10%. It doesn't matter. The important point here is that the majority speaks in every election. It isn't a government run in the shadows. You want to know why Obama got elected ask your family and friends. They probably know. If you think voting is irrelevant you probably have some pretty radical views that your family and friends don't share with you.
 

420MuNkEy

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You can disconnect it because one has nothing to do with the other. There is the potential for what the people believed at the time and then what the leaders of the republic decided at the time and why they decided it.

You can find explanations following most important court cases throughout our written history. Things like that cannot be gamed by a political activist posing as a historian.
We didn't have a republic at the time of the revolutionary war... that was kind of the point. The "leaders" were "the people". But, you seem to have shifted those goal posts again, seemingly changing your "idea" to a legal test of sorts.

Even just going by court cases you will see them interpreted differently. Fuck, even the supreme court justices often don't interpret laws/court rulings in the same way. These interpretations absolutely can be, and usually are, politically skewed.

Are you proposing we create a new supreme ministry of legal history or something? Does the majority rule in this ministry? Who decides who's in the ministry? Does the supreme court have to defer to their interpretations of history? Are their rulings immutable?

You keep coming back to this idea that everyone will just agree and it will be fine. History has shown us that this is essentially never the case. Even "experts" have historically always disagreed. The problem isn't with political activists "posing" as historians, it's that humans are biased creatures. Historians don't have a perfect untainted view of history and never will.

What the hell is the point in saying it obfuscates the vote and then saying it is irrelevant in this context?

The net result still comes back to voting being pointless.
You're conflating the will of the people with voting. They are not one in the same. That's the point. If the vote is to have symbolic value of the will of the people, then there cannot be tactical voting. If the vote is to have political value in that it actually counts, then our electoral college system needs to go (among other things), which is not and has not been what I'm talking about in this fucking reply chain.



Except we don't run four candidates in the general election that way.

We whittle them down to two with the occasional jackass(es) coming in as the third wheel.

In each poll / election the people get to choose of the available candidates who their lesser evil is. If that isn't a symbolic choice I don't know what is.

Nothing here is obfuscated. The people voted. The people got what they wanted ( or didn't want ). Voting because you don't want something is the same as voting because you want something. Don't you get that?
:facepalm:
Okay, I'll just add FPTP to the list of the great many things you don't seem to understand the consequences of. Honestly, there's no sense in trying to explain it to you any more. You're clearly as dense as a gravitational singularity.

So it is beyond us as a people to make a historically accurate test on the republic. Got it.
If only this weren't sarcasm. It is beyond us because "historically accurate" is a relative term. It varies. You will never have perfect consensus of the "important" events (or even consensus of what is an "important" event), even among experts.
 

Intolerable

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You remind me why these kind of discussions on the internet are cancerous. I don't see that as a good thing.
 

420MuNkEy

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You remind me why these kind of discussions on the internet are cancerous. I don't see that as a good thing.
Cancer isn't good? What a profound insight.
:ahh:
 

Inquisitor

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There is a lack of evidence in this discussion.
 

AndyC

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The whole 'what if everybody thought like that' contradicts itself. If everyone thought the same, would not everyone vote for the same thing. The whole concept of mass decisions must control large amounts of people leading to the instance of change or independence to be somewhat pathetic. This entitles the right of hypocrisy to be chosen upon those who decide its meaning, equal to the government. It's sad to see that our society can be so blind to the point that other cognitive functions will fail such as memory (this sentence is all figurative). I could go on but I got distracted from other thoughts... ADD.
 
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