Visualisation

[Jordan~]

A friend and I were talking after Philosophy today. We had been learning about the "missing shade of blue" counterargument in Hume's Enquiry concerning Human Understanding, and it came out that neither of us are actually able to picture a shade of blue - any shade of blue, even one right in front of us that we saw moments earlier. In fact, it turns out that neither of us can form any mental images at all.
We spoke to some other people who thought that was odd. I've always been disbelieving of other people's claims that they can actually see things when they close their eyes as clearly as if they were in front of them - I always thought this was a liberal, poetic way of expressing the way my thoughts work. She was the same, but we accepted in the end that people are actually capable of this.
We tried to come up with ways to explain what we do instead - I've come to call it "conceptualisation" as opposed to "visualisation". We form ideas and concepts with no physical associations. It's a bit like a description, only we're not constantly aware of all the details it contains.
For example, if someone said, "Imagine a giraffe", instead of picturing a giraffe (which I'm incapable of), I have this concept of a giraffe in my mind - no image of it, just an awareness of giraffeness, all the associations that go with a giraffe. If I was to draw my imagined giraffe, I would be reconstructing a giraffe entirely from the bottom up - including each detail as I realise it, modifying things so they match what "seems right". As I understand it, most people are copying a picture they can see in their heads. I really don't get how that works.
Another example, imagining a tower. To actually know the full extent of what I've imagined, I need to represent it physically in some way. Details will come to me as I draw it - things that seem to make sense, or that belong to the tower. It's like the picture forms on the paper instead of in my mind.
Another peculiar difference is the imagining of "the ideal x". Most people we spoke to could quite quickly form an image of, say, the ideal chair. We both had the same approach, which is startling given how complex it is. We hold internal dialogues, imagining a conversation either with someone else or with ourselves, and discuss the merits of the features a chair can have until we have some concept of an ideal chair, which can then be added to as more is realised. I did this the other day, trying to work out what my ideal partner would be like, holding a conversation in my head with the friend I was talking about. Note that although I had the idea that we were on the crescent outside our school, of what we were wearing (our uniforms) and of what she looked like, etc., all I could see was my own eyelids.

Anyway, to get to the actual point, I guess I have some questions after this revelation:

Is anyone aware that there are people who can't visualise anything at all? I mean, this seems like the kind of thing that might interest psychologists and neuroscientists.

Is anyone else here incapable of forming mental images? Does anyone know what I mean?

Can anyone describe to me how forming a mental image works for them? How do you do it? Does it require effort, or can you just do it?

What are your thoughts on this, if any?

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Supposedly great artists can "see" an image on paper as they draw it, I lack this ability.

I can imagine fantastic images in my mind, but I lack the skills to externalise them. Futhermore I can imagine colored water dancing when listening to music.

 

[anemian]

I can visualize quite a few things in my head and some out of it. But it's not like one full picture at one time it's a few focuses while knowing that there's other stuff in the 'space'.

I can do 3D space pretty easily and to relax/meditate/whatever I'll picture myself in a few different spaces some that are probable others not. I also have a pet dragon a miniature asian kind that I'll wrap around arms/shoulders and control around. I actually get some fun out of seeing how detailed I can make individual objects before I lose focus on everything else.

For out of it I can just imagine stuff in my environment. In most cases they're just purely real like knowing where stuff is without seeing it in others something completely not real. I've recently picked up a trick where I give myself spectral wings and can judge a few statuses of myself based on the color they are(the key being getting the color they are before you think). uninterestingly enough pure white being me focused on a goal, and for some interesting reason green being some form or another of procrastination.

I can do massive flow/connection charts in my head though they aren't 'drawn' just there. As a matter of fact I have difficulty remembering anything that can't be connected with itself or something else. Probably the same reason why I like Information Tech.

 

[Agent Intellect]

I can imagine fantastic images in my mind, but I lack the skills to externalise them.

thats a good way to put it for me, too.

i actually visualize very well. when i read books about abstract theoretical physics, i can often picture what the author is talking about very clearly in my head. i'd say a good portion of my "Ne" imaginings actually occurs in visualizations. its perhaps why i also get bored of books that are crammed with adjectives and descriptions, because i don't need much of that in order for me to picture whats going on, anyway. then on the other hand, when i write, if often dump a lot of information on the page because i can picture it in my head so well and i want to get that image down in words.

 

[EloquentBohemian]

This sound much like Plato's Theory of Forms.

Is anyone aware that there are people who can't visualise anything at all? I mean, this seems like the kind of thing that might interest psychologists and neuroscientists.

Not that I can recall. I have never consodered this before because visulisation is my nature, so I assumed that everyone could. I find this intriguing.

Is anyone else here incapable of forming mental images? Does anyone know what I mean?

I do this all the time. As conversations are going on, I tend to have a constant 'slide-show' of what people are saying depending on who I am focusing on at any given time.

Can anyone describe to me how forming a mental image works for them? How do you do it? Does it require effort, or can you just do it?

It just happens. I don't think I could explain the dynamics, for I've never given it a second thought. Mental images just occur for me, and often in rapid succession.

When I write, there is this 'film' running through my imagination. I pause this and describe actions, dialogue, scenery, etc. I can recall any set or series of images at will, even after a space of time has passed.

 

[NoID10ts]

My mind is like a running movie, sometimes its like my focus will shift into the mental movies and images and I don't actually see with my physical eyes until I snap out of it. It's dangerous behind the wheel. I've had many occasions when I have been driving and I suddenly come to and wonder just how long I have been zoned out. On occasion I have been known to overshoot my destination and then wonder how in the hell I got so far off course.

 

[Agent Intellect]

I've had many occasions when I have been driving and I suddenly come to and wonder just how long I have been zoned out. On occasion I have been known to overshoot my destination and then wonder how in the hell I got so far off course.

i think that happens to me anytime i drive more then about a mile (the first part anyway, i've had the second part happen a couple times though)

 

[FusionKnight]

As my sig indicates, visualization is my natural mode. It never occurred to me that other people might not do this... interesting!

 

[Chimera]

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This is something I've wondered about as well; I'd heard things about artists visualizing things before they drew them, and I got discouraged because there are times when I can't visualize things at all.
My thought process works something like this: first I get a brief visualized flash of whatever it is I'm thinking of. As quickly as it appears, it's gone, and I can hardly remember what it looked like. Immediately my mind puts the parts of the picture that I remember into a sort of wordless description ("just an aware of giraffeness", for a giraffe...), and on that I build on the description and translate it into adjectives.

That's only one of the ways I visualize, but it's the most common. . .another common one is using the rest of my senses to imagine the thing I'm supposed to be visualizing. For example, if I'm being told to visualize a desert, my mouth goes dry and I get a slight thirst, a wave of heat flares once from somewhere in my body. If you're wondering, yes, I just "visualized" being in a desert a few seconds ago in order to figure out what happened.

When I'm reading a book, I don't visualize the way I think others do. . .I don't have pictures in my mind of how the characters look to me. I have a sense of them in my mind, not what they look like. And in, for example, a fight scene, I periodically have to stop to imagine what it would look like if I saw someone else perform a move described and then I stretch the character over them.

I'm going to stop rambling now. Basically, I can visualize things, but only certain things trigger it, and I'm much more comfortable with the "giraffeness" feeling.
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[Jesin]

Umm, this sounds like terminology confusion to me.

 

[Auburn]

My mind is like a running movie, sometimes its like my focus will shift into the mental movies and images and I don't actually see with my physical eyes until I snap out of it.

I can relate to this.
Often times throughout the day I remember something that I watched or experienced not too long ago and I just temporarily disappear from reality. I can see the entire memory in my mind, however I can't see fine details unless I purposely focus on them - it's a sort of 'vague' reality, but at the moment it's still more real that the actual reality I am in.

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When I'm reading a book, I don't visualize the way I think others do. . .I don't have pictures in my mind of how the characters look to me. I have a sense of them in my mind, not what they look like. And in, for example, a fight scene, I periodically have to stop to imagine what it would look like if I saw someone else perform a move described and then I stretch the character over them.

Basically, I can visualize things, but only certain things trigger it, and I'm much more comfortable with the "giraffeness" feeling.
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When I read, I switch back and forth from 'conceptualizing' to 'visualizing' depending on what the text says. The 'awareness' (giraffeness) with no true form happens mostly when the author is presenting ideas or dialogue, but when the author describes something specific I have to pause my reading and visualize it before I can keep reading again.

So, to answer your question Jordan, yes, for me it does take conscious thought to visualize sometimes - however throughout the day it spontaneously happens effortlessly.

This is an interesting topic, I would really like to know what neuroscientists have to say in regards to this - as well as the 'Dreams and Subconscious' thread.

Just a though of the top of my head: Perhaps when I'm solely using Ti, all the data I'm considering at the moment is "conceptual" and has no shape to it. I think, however, that when my Ne is incorporated into it, I switch back and forth from visualizing to conceptualizing - from gathering data to processing. If it was really so, then Jordan perhaps what you do is use purely Ti? (but of course this is just a random thought , feel free to pick it apart)

 

[Artifice Orisit]

When I'm reading a good book, I don't see the text, images just flow into my mind.

 

[Waterstiller]

(I like to call it imagination, but whatever)

I visualize books. For non-fiction, if I've heard/seen the author I usually visualize them giving a guest lecture. If I'm reading a Saul Williams book I always imagine him narrating and let my mind wander through the images he's presenting.

"I once visited a lost world
where black men with broken necks
held the hands of charred women"

It's often as frightening as it is beautiful.

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When I'm listening to Explosions in the Sky I automatically visualize everything I'm hearing, and I don't really have any control over it. Which is why I try not to listen to them around other people.. I just drop out. It's usually expansive vistas, water ripples, cosmology, falling to the earth in slow motion, impossibly huge buildings falling down from different angles, ect. Sex and music are almost parallel experiences for me in this regard (and I'll leave it at that).

I visualize new concepts and theories, but .. I'm not really sure how the hell I could ever describe that one. This works best with philosophy and physics.

I also visualize music; I like to create music with a wide variety of instruments and styles when I'm driving in the car. When I recall music mentally I also like to switch out instruments or give the singer new lyrics, or take hir different melodic places.

About the process: it's kind of uncontrollable for me to consciously create a visualization. It can't be constructed piece by piece. I just have to jump in and allow myself to lose control. In developing your imagination I'd assume developing Ni would prove helpful.

As for the experience: Visualizations can be weird. Since I'm not taking in the information from senses, it seems I can go as fast or slow as I want. Replay as many times as I want, take it from any and every angle I choose. The mind's eye is an altogether different experience; like dreams, my imagination seems to have its own logic but I have a better grasp on the direction and duration. If it's not necessary, I don't see it. For what it's worth, my ability to do all this has increased drastically since switching to estrogen.

I've had many occasions when I have been driving and I suddenly come to and wonder just how long I have been zoned out.On occasion I have been known to overshoot my destination and then wonder how in the hell I got so far off course.

Ha! I do that so much. Once I got on the freeway and accidentally went to my college because I was zoned out for so long. I was so embarrassed. Just recently I ended up going to my old house. I think I just have these programs that I run in the background. Most of us probably don't think about all the different things we do when we're driving - from braking to turn signals. Some of the programs are a little larger in scope (like routes for destinations). I think my entire life is comprised of a series of programs in the background.. just so I can spend more time in my internal world. I only venture out long enough to modify the programming when it goes wrong, or develop new ones for fun/efficiency.

 

[Jordan~]

@Chimera: That's exactly what it's like, yes! I do sometimes have involuntary mental images that I can't really control, but they tend to last moments. I can't picture anything when I'm reading either.

@Jesin: I made up all the terms with the intent that they be as easy to understand as possible. If they're used elsewhere in similar ways, sorry, I wasn't aware. If you mean that I'm being thrown off course by the word "visualisation" and actually no one forms a real picture, maybe you can't either - everyone I've spoken to except that one person can actually see things with their eyes closed.

@Waterstiller: I use the term "visualisation" in favour of "imagination" because we can imagine things very well. Creative writing is a forte of both of us.

If it was really so, then Jordan perhaps what you do is use purely Ti? (but of course this is just a random thought , feel free to pick it apart)

An interesting thought, but the person I mentioned is an ENFP.

We found out something else today: We both dream in images like everyone else. My dreams are often cinematic, in fact, like I'm watching a properly directed big-budget movie. Would that suggest that different areas of the brain are responsible for imagination and dreaming?

Also, you people who can visualise things have fricken superpowers. D:

 

[Ogion]

Hm, interesting topic.
I think for me it is that i rarely 'really' see something (like if it were real, or maybe dreaming, which for me can be very movie-like as well), but rather imagine it. I just tried to conjure an image with eyes closed and found out that i can easily remember everything important, remember my reaction and 'feeling' (not emotional feeling, but, uhm, the other meaning...) of an image. I can easily remember whatt i thought upon watching that image, what constitutes the image etc. It's like i am watching the image right now, without actually watching it. Does that make sense? It is like my mind saves not the image but the reaction to it. Saving information upon what actually is in the image (not minute detail, more 'the big picture' ), saving connections that immediately formed to other saved memory, saving my thoughts coming from watching that image....Perhaps i may describe it in internet terms: I'll save the tags, the image description, make some links to other saved content, save the comments etc...

In dreams i mostly have a real vision, movielike as i said, but there are many times when being in a near-awake-dream-state (dreaming but being very near to being awake and lucidly dreaming) then very often it is the same thing as above. I dream, and a story unfolds and everything like normally, but i only really see sketches, rough contours, quick drawings, but still the dream has as much 'content# as one of the visual ones...

I know, it's hard to describe, but i hope i brought it to words intelligibly

Ogion

 

[Jesin]

If you mean that I'm being thrown off course by the word "visualisation" and actually no one forms a real picture, maybe you can't either - everyone I've spoken to except that one person can actually see things with their eyes closed.

No, it's not that. I know I can really visualize things, I know I can see mental images. But I also know that when I ask myself, "Can I actually visualize things?", and I mentally experiment to find out, I usually come up with the answer "no".

When I try to visualize something, it works. But when I try to visualize something to see if it works, it doesn't.

As for closing my eyes? Not if my eyes would otherwise be open. If I close my eyes in order to visualize something, I just end up focused on keeping my eyes closed, not on visualizing.

I hope that made sense.

 

[Jordan~]

It did, but I think you miss the point. There are no images in my head at all, whether I try to make them or not. I can't conceive of being able to see something by memory like that. Where do you think the confusion of terms lies?

 

[Jesin]

Mostly in "visualize" and "see".


I just thought up a potential experiment for you to try.

Try drawing Africa. Just the shape, without bothering with other details. Use plain white paper with no grids. Do not lift the pencil, erase anything, or go back over your lines to straighten them out yet.

Once you've closed the shape, take a look at it. It probably won't look quite right.

How do you know it doesn't?

 

[Jordan~]

That's hard to explain. I see the shape in front of me, and I recognise it as Africa (obviously due to the fact that I intended for it to be so, but I would recognise it anyway), but it does match my idea of the exact appearance of Africa. I can't form an image of Africa to compare it to, it's just that the concept of the shape of Africa - the knowledge of it might be another way of putting it - doesn't match the physical thing I see in front of me. For an example you might be able to understand... Suppose you saw, say, a bottle, then closed your eyes. You have an image of the bottle as you last saw it. Someone removes the cap of the bottle, and asks you to touch it. You know something is wrong with the bottle, although you're being told that by your sense of touch rather than by your sense of sight - the two don't match up correctly. It's the same with me and recognising that there's something wrong with the outline of Africa - the outline that I see and the concept that I feel don't match. Does that make any sense? It's a much more abstract sensation than any sensory impression. It's like I have an awareness of shape, but I don't see the shape.

 

[Pixie]

I consider myself to have a good visual memory and I can visualise things in my mind, but it's a different kind of seeing. If I'm visualising something, I can "see" it without actually seeing it.. if that makes sense. If I have my eyes closed and I'm imagining a picture, I still just see little dancing lights amongst blackness, but I can mentally see the picture. Whether my eyes are open or shut has no effect on how well I can conjure up a mental image, and I do most of my visualising with my eyes open.
When I read you talking about imagining a giraffe, first I created a cartoon drawing of a giraffe in my mind, then I remembered a real giraffe that I'd fed at the zoo 2 years ago and could see it in as much detail as a photograph, but I can't actually "see" it in the normal sense of the word. There's no effort involved, it just happens. Oh and the giraffe drawing didn't literally appear as drawing itself like it would if I was actually drawing with my hand, it just gradually appeared. I built on the basic feel of a giraffe, then it kept fading in and out as I added more detail with my mind and edited it to my liking.

I hadn't really considered that there were people who had no mental images at all. But I've often wondered if what I consider to be a mental image is not what other people mean, and that maybe they do actually see something behind their eyelids. Or that if someone like you says they can't visualise pictures in their mind, then maybe they've just misunderstood the idea of mental images. Maybe nobody can actually see something they visualise in their mind (unless they're hallucinating?).

 

[Jordan~]

Yes, the last point is what I thought, but most people claim that they can see it as clearly as if it was right in front of them. I'm still a little disbelieving of that.

 

[anemian]

I can see one specific object extremely clearly. But it's not like the eyes vision and they don't overlap as a mental process IE: I could still be looking around with both my real eye and my minds eye.

 

[Auburn]

I agree with what Pixie said.

Also, I think there should be a distinction made. If my physiology serves me right, "Sight" in the most true sense of the word is the stimulation of the optic nerves by incoming light which then transfers to the cerebrum and translates via associations into images. If we take this as the definition of "sight" them perhaps it's true that nobody actually "sees" images in their head - because that would mean to literally receive stimulation of that nerve. When recalling memories and such, your optic nerves are not being stimulated - hence you're not actually "seeing". (such a think can happen, I guess, but that is better termed as hallucinations.)

I guess it is the "associations" that come after the initial optic stimulation that we recall from our brain to form mental images but not the image itself. Perhaps all the connections a certain image makes to the information already in our minds is what is recalled - while it is impossible to recall the actual image unless your eye were to literally be again stimulated to have those images.

 

[Jesin]

I can remember visual scenes. I can visualize quite easily, which comes in handy for finding volumes via integrals, or as a kind of sanity check to make sure the derivative or integral I just took makes sense. When I try to visualize, it works, but when I try to "see" a mental image, I end up trying to use my eyes.

Yes, the last point is what I thought, but most people claim that they can see it as clearly as if it was right in front of them. I'm still a little disbelieving of that.

I think what they mean is that the image is almost as clear as it would be if it were physically right in front of them, not that they can see it in the same manner or using the same method that they would if it were right in front of them.

 

[Jordan~]

Oh, I know that.