Verbally incapacitated :(

[Gorgrim]

Hi guys, I have a small question for people out here. How well do you argue verbally? are you decent at talking in general?

I know people here are able to talk, and back up what they say. But usually, not only do I pause, i also find that I have too much to say at once, that I can't decide what i'll choose to say, without alot of time. So what happens when you talk? you properly pause, to think up a well rounded answer...like I do. but I feel incapacitated, slow, if I am forced to answer fast on something I've not had time with.

my Danish teacher likes to talk alot, and many teachers, take what I say as a sign that I don't know what im doing. For example, if i can't come up with well constructed answer right away. But it takes time to go through the huge hall of variables that makes a GOOD definition for something.

Danish pupils are graded on what they say in class. thus verbal skill is key. I'm 18 years old. As you got older, did you improve verbally?

I already know that the school system is flawed, i'm graded as mentally handicapped, based on the teachers grades, which is the catagory better fit for my classmates in comparison to me, they would be mentally handicapped, and I would be the genius that has already taken his attention elsewhere when trivial everyday opinions are asked for. ( this means that I don't say much, when our teacher asks questions that are obvious or otherwise abit useless).

But I do talk, and that's the problem, I want to train verbal skill, i just find it rather difficult in this enviroment, whenever I talk in school, I just get the same biased opinion that I am abit slow, I'm trying to prove myself because they have a biased image of me not beeing very active - and based on what I say, I was hoping to change that, but it does not help much. I am afraid im struggling against opinions that are made up and rock solid. Not only that, but I also find it self-conflicting to involve myself verbally when it's not needed. Everything I learn comes through unconciously, and also molded inside me conciously. Meh.

 

[Dissident]

I'm not good at articulating arguments verbally either, once in a while I even stutter, but only when arguing or in some stressing situation in which I get nervous, otherwise I'm fine. What bothers me is that once the moment passed and I get time to think, words flow in my mind and I can put together all that I wanted to say in an instant.

 

[cheese]

I am usually not good at on-the-spot arguments with Ts, especially TJs. These people extravert their T so their thinking process is shown externally. TPs like us internalise this process; add the N and you get very bad debating skills - we see more than one possiblity at once (N), can't decide which is best (P) and don't explain our thoughts (Ti).
I also get stressed quite easily, and cannot think well under those conditions, though when angry I often think faster and better. I also find it difficult with TJs to remember all the points made in the argument and have to restate everything, which can be frustrating for them, and humiliating for me. TJs also do not seem to accept later qualifications to your position/statement as things become clearer to you. They see this as "altering the position", because for them the argument exists entirely in the external discussion, whereas TPs are continually clarifying things in their head as they talk.

Anyway! I am trying to come to terms with the fact that I often do not function as well as an on-the-spot thinker. I am sorry to hear you've been graded incorrectly. Could you transfer to another school where you could start over? The expectations of teachers have been shown in studies to skew students' results. I have found that, when comfortable and in E mode, I talk very well and think fast, so perhaps you just need more experience and self-respect, as this has developed for me along with/as a result of social skills and extraversion.

 

[del]

I'm pretty good at this, but I definitely wasn't born with this skill. It's something that will improve with practice.

I've noticed that my INTP friend is bad at it, and maybe it has something to do with thinking being dominant, because even when we brainstorm for a project he has trouble just letting things "flow" and seems more worried about the ideas coming out correctly than just getting them out, moving on, and analyzing later.

In other words, maybe this is another symptom of "analysis paralysis."

Edit: If this site has a voice chat or something I'd be willing to get on and be a practice dummy, lol.

 

[Gorgrim]

hehe thanks you, guys, for your insights....

I reckon what you say is right cheese, the part of TJs for example. Got a ENTJ friend and actually an ESTJ half-brother. I don't know about switching schools, I like my school. My grades during the year are 'guiding' for how well I do in classes. Obviously they don't guide, they misguide, because of personal bias. Problem might be teachers with negative bias might lead to a bad oral exam interaction. Another problem is that during the year, they might not give me the right help, if they don't know where I stand and what I really need help with. the better they know me, the better they can fill in the gaps so i'm ready for a proper exam, where they don't have to hold back, and make it simple because they expect a mediocre grade.

I tend to be very prone to overloading myself when I am talking and at the same time analyzing, sometimes letting other thoughts get the better of me AS i'm talking, so i know what I wanna say and suddenly an idea collides with my train of thought and it get's confused

like dissident, with some time to quickly put what's been analyzed while you're picking up the stack of papers you accidently threw on the floor while talking, it's clear after, and you wonder why you couldnt have said something better the first time. I kinda contemplate pinning the cause of why, in some cases, things flow so well in my mind(a dialogue only I can hear) untill I speak.

Ultimately, practising Ne and verbal skills should help, I see it as a barrier that if breached would make an INTP seem quite impressive beeing able to portray the inside to others as well as possible. except that, talking to teachers about those misunderstandings seems to be what i'll have to try. Thanks btw

 

[grey matters]

My communication problem is due to the fact that my ideas are so complex that they are hard to express verbally. It can be very frustrating because, with most people, if you don't get your point across within the first few sentences the other person starts to loose interest. All too often they make the judgment that you're a clueless idiot and then change the subject before you can explain the subject in a way that they can understand.

Ironically these same poeple wonder why INTP's have such inner rage. Naturally I can't tell them how it feels to have such a complete understanding of a topic that I know it's nuances, it's history and it's possible future, it's consequences and potential,( I know what makes it tick so to speak) and yet be labeled as a mindless idiot who knows nothing about what she is talking about. To top it off, based on their so called knowlledge, these idiots make rules and regulations that effect me. I feel like a mute, who is trying to communicate with hand motions to someone who doesn't even recognise that I can't speak. It's almost like being locked in.

But, on the bright side I have found a way to deal with this, and It doesn't involve any poisen. Yea!! I have learned to express myself through writing. I may not be the best writer, but it certantly is better then my speaking ability. With written words I have a voice again.



I suggest Gorgrim, that you make the most of every written assignment, to prove that you are not an idiot. If you get good enough at it you could seriously shame and embarrass your teachers. When they see someone, who they have labeled as dumb, turn in a paper that a college grad. student would produce, it could seriously mess with their minds. They may accuse you of cheating, but you can prove that you wrote the paper, so thier acusations would not last long. Have fun!!

 

[cheese]

YES to everything, especially "things flow so well in my mind(a dialogue only I can hear) untill I speak."

RE practising:
Add extraversion to the list. This is really a good thing to at least attempt to master; on one of the other threads about I/E, the extraverts mentioned that they tend not to get distracted by their own thoughts in conversation because they're completely involved in it. If you learn to "get out of yourself" more you will develop the "external you" and make your mind and talents more immediately accessible (and recognisable!) to others.
Also try practising Te by putting your thoughts down on paper in a logical sequence, the way TJs do. (My brother is ENTJ too by the way, and it's very difficult arguing with him. I suspect he's smarter than me as well, which doesn't help!) I think structuring your thoughts on an external plane disciplines the mind, which would build confidence and make interaction easier and more fruitful.

Just read grey's post - definitely! I have surprised a number of teachers with written assignments in my time. They thought I was lazy, spacey and dumb. (The laziness and spaciness stayed the same unfortunately, which disappointed their raised expectations.)

Best of luck!

 

[bdubs]

I'v noticed that during an in class discussion I am rarely called on because I spend a few valuable seconds thinking about the question being asked. Others tend to hear the question and jump on it before their thoughts are fully formed.

I have also noticed that while I may pause mid sentence (and risk being interrupted) as I search for the best way to articulate my idea, many people will simply add the word "like" into the sentence ad nauseum as a place holder while they are thinkng. Its rather interesting to listen to how people speak while they are under slight pressure. Just today I heard a student say "like" literally every other word beore ending the her sentence with "like, um, you know". I think that this is a product of some people trying to think while they speak and also trying to avoid pauses mid sentence. Since I do not take part in either of these practices, I often lose out in class discussions and large conversations because my pause is seen as an entry point for another person to interject. (That tends to tell me that the person interjecting did not actually hear anything I said, otherwise they would notice I was still in mid thought) It seems that many people are more competitive in about their opinions than I am.

 

[grey matters]

Bdubs, it is an entry point for another person to interject, and yes they may not have been listening to you 100%. I could drum up some depressing statistics on the listing skills of most people if you like.
Depressed yet? I am.

Cheese: Practicing your Te by putting thoughts down on paper. I never thought of it that way, but you are right it does help me with my speaking ability.

 

[cheese]

^Yes. When it's recorded it's much easier to organise. I think it was Bertrand Russell who said "How can I know what I think until I have written it down?"
Blogging and starting on this forum resulted in almost instant improvements in my speaking/arguing.

Wow actually this is a very exciting discovery! We should post this somewhere where everyone can see it especially as lots of INTPs have problems with speaking.

 

[bdubs]

Bdubs, it is an entry point for another person to interject, and yes they may not have been listening to you 100%. I could drum up some depressing statistics on the listing skills of most people if you like.

Really? I just thought it was just being rude. See, I'm more "verbally incapacitated" than I thought! I can not begin to count the number of times I have been shut down mid sentence because of someone else.

Just yesterday one of my roommates said to me, "Man Bdubs, you seem to remember everything people tell you!" My response was "Yeah, I have a nasty habit of actively listening to the person speaking to me."

 

[Ghost1986]

i cant argue to save my life. i tend to contradict my self and my mouth tends to move ahead of my mind. oddly enough though, when there is the possibly for a very heated destructive confrontation, i can wield my words like a surgeons scalpel. Tuesday night i almost got in a fight with another Mexican because i made a slip of the tongue. he was ready to fight and i talked him out of it.

i think i have brain damage. for the past 3-4 years my ability to talk has gone down. i get tongue tied very easily and the words i say dont seem to form right.

 

[FacetiousPersona]

I am articulate with my speech, and I am capable of developing new thoughts/arguments while debating through intuitive leaps. Improvision is certainly required when debating with an individual in person. It is easier for me to debate an individual in real life, for I normally have the advantage of being able to speak clearly and think rapidly.

When there were deates at college, I would be in the centre of them criticizing everyone's opinions and defending any I stated. It was very fun for me to jump in and have a spontaneous debate.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Very interesting thread.

I've gotten better with expressing my thoughts over time. One thing I've learned to not get so deep initially. Keep it simple and let it evolve into something more complicated. I think it is against our nature to do this but it can be learned. It's a matter of dealing with other types and sometimes we have to be the ones to change out of our natural comfort zone. Sometimes the art of conversation is about keeping it going in the right direction and not about getting it right the first time.

Ironically, this probably made little sense

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Interestingly alcohol results in improving my speech, sure my vocabulary is reduced, but I can speak fluidly without having to think about how I say stuff.

Or maybe it's just an impression I get, being drunk after all.

 

[grey matters]

I am articulate with my speech, and I am capable of developing new thoughts/arguments while debating through intuitive leaps. Improvision is certainly required when debating with an individual in person. It is easier for me to debate an individual in real life, for I normally have the advantage of being able to speak clearly and think rapidly.

When there were deates at college, I would in the centre of them criticizing everyone's opinions and defending any I stated. It was very fun for me to jump in and have a spontaneous debate.

Can we shoot this guy for bragging?

 

[sagewolf]

I fully agree with Dissident: I can put together any argument-- using words-- in my head in moments, but if someone asks me for my opinion on something, I don't manage to say much at all, even though I have an enormous number of thoughts in my head. None of them seem to make it to my mouth intact. Indeed, talking to someone seems to kill all my mental activity pretty quickly: it's all taken up with panic over the fact that there's a person talking to me.

 

[QSR]

This is a great thread. LOL alcohol seems to help in almost all situations, but for me it doesn't change my ability to debate. I get so emotionally wound up when I try to debate people that I can quickly turn angry. Grey hit the nail on the head. I feel like I have a deep understanding of a topic, but the other person is able to articulate their thoughts into "bumper stickers" and I am unable to respond concisely enough.

For instance I have a friend (unsure of type) whom I like to have coffee with and debate politics. He happens to be to the left of me, but we agree on a lot of things. I will often say things that seem incongruous and he gets mad because he thinks I'm talking about something totally unrelated. The truth is that I've made a connection in my head, but I never said it out loud so he thinks I'm trying to change the subject.

This makes me really wish I had participated in debate in high school. I probably would have learned how to harness my words better. I actually think that since I have a sort of glib attitude towards a lot of things, and I like to joke around a lot, that intelligent people think I'm rather shallow.

To Gorgrim: You're obviously smarter than most of the people in your class and probably some of your teachers. I had no idea that the Danish school system is so verbally oriented. It's the opposite here in the States--writing is much more important. My teachers thought I was mildly retarded up until about 5th grade when I became the lone gifted student in my class (that caused a whole host of other social problems.) Perhaps your teachers would be pleased if you talked to them after class sometime about why you think you are different. Explain to them that you have complex thoughts that you struggle to articulate. INTPs are very reluctant to ask for help, but I've found that mentors and teachers can be our best friends.

 

[FacetiousPersona]

Can we shoot this guy for bragging?

Exactly as planned.

 

[Ermine]

I'm good at arguing, as long as I know something about the subject. As for talking in general, I'm kind of awkward and stumble over myself because my mind is much faster than my mouth. I also end up pausing too long in order to think about how to express something right.

 

[Cegorach]

I can relate with a remarkably large number of the previous comments. I also find that being an insomniac with a minimum amount of sleep allows me to formulate verbal patterns into a more functional form, my memory and overall argument quality faulter as a result, but the ability to articulate my speech allows me to hold my own in most debates/arguments.

I lose my ability to speak occasionally if I get anxious. However I've become surprisingly accomplished at hiding my incapacity from others, most people just think I'm shy or ignoring them.

 

[FacetiousPersona]

I lose my ability to speak occasionally if I get anxious. However I've become surprisingly accomplished at hiding my incapacity from others, most people just think I'm shy or ignoring them.

I typically ignore people through choice.

 

[Da Blob]

I have three points that might be helpful.

First of all, I have found that my mind works 10 times faster than my tongue can move. So if I am not careful, I skip words, don't finished sentences (because I believe what follows is obvious and doesn't need to be spoken) and will often share something that other people see as being totally off topic. Again I think it is just because my mind is quicker than my tongue...(?) Writing is better.

I got tricked into auditioning for a school drama, "Flowers for Algernon", and got the part. I learned a little bit about acting from the experience. I found that in social situations it is usually is not profitable to be my Self. So I assume a Character, a persona, a role - just to be able to verbalize and speak coherently by others' standards. In fact, I got good enough at it that a guy who ran a local TV station suggested I look into broadcasting as a career. But it is all an act, I'm not being me. If you are young enough I suggest you look into developing such a "Professional persona", you know bed-side manner, oozing competency, active listener etc.

Ook! I tripped over my third point, that involves developing better listening skills, after all that is how you can tell if a person is intelligent. If he or she asks intelligent questions, it proves that there is an intellect at work. I mean just about anyone can memorize a bunch of facts and appear to be an expert on a subject. The true experts are the ones that can manipulate those facts...

IF YOU CAN'T SAY A LOT, ASKING AN INTELLIGENT QUESTION USING JUST A FEW WORDS, IS PROBABLY THE BEST INVESTMENT IN SPOKEN WORDS

 

[Cegorach]

Heh, I managed to get my entire class kicked out because I was ignoring the teacher, he couldn't get me to leave so he threw everyone else out... I have to remain unusually calm in unfamiliar situations, and have been likened to a Jedi.

 

[FacetiousPersona]

Hehehe, I managed to get my entire class kicked out because I was ignoring the teacher, he couldn't get me to leave so he threw everyone else out... I have to remain unusually calm in unfamiliar situations, and have been likened to a Jedi.

A very similar situation happened when I was in high school, actually. One of the differences our situations was that I was refusing to leave instead of merely ignoring the teacher.

 

[Cegorach]

Despite my compulsion to entirely derail this thread using tales of rebellion, I suppose we should allow the others to continue their "topic".

 

[FacetiousPersona]

Despite my compulsion to entirely derail this thread using tales of rebellion, I suppose we should allow the others to continue thier "topic".

Screw the topic.

I was very rebellious when in high school. Did you enjoy outsmarting the teachers and opposing their authority?

 

[Cegorach]

Yeah! Topics are sooo yesterday! I would've been compared to a demon in my youth. I managed to pass my math class without completing a single assignment, instead I sat in the library reading books. (...An intellectual demon)

 

[Jesin]

They see this as "altering the position"

Yes, and many people seem to think that altering the position is a bad thing! If you don't alter the position, why have a debate in the first place?

 

[cheese]

^Sorry I should've been plainer:
I meant they see it as altering one's own position while not acknowledging it, ie a form of sneakiness. A later qualification of one's stated position is unacceptable to them as they consider it complete reneging on that position, even though to us it is simply a revelation of an already present but overlooked bit of data. We try to explain this and they sense dishonesty. This is the source of the problem.

Obviously it is desirable for one side to eventually alter their position, so that the two come into agreement; hopefully this agreement reflects the truth.

 

[sagewolf]

I understand. I have to explain that to people constantly, that when I say something, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm 100% sure of it, and that I might seem to just change my mind at a moment's notice. I change my mind with much thought and consideration! It's just that I never let anyone else see or hear those trains of thought, so it doesn't make any sense to them.

 

[Seducer of the Homeless]

I understand. I have to explain that to people constantly, that when I say something, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm 100% sure of it, and that I might seem to just change my mind at a moment's notice. I change my mind with much thought and consideration! It's just that I never let anyone else see or hear those trains of thought, so it doesn't make any sense to them.

Amen

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Really? I just thought it was just being rude. See, I'm more "verbally incapacitated" than I thought! I can not begin to count the number of times I have been shut down mid sentence because of someone else.

Just yesterday one of my roommates said to me, "Man Bdubs, you seem to remember everything people tell you!" My response was "Yeah, I have a nasty habit of actively listening to the person speaking to me."

Unfortunately, justified as it may be, saying that kind of thing is going to get you despised and marginalized in a school situation. Either it's unfair, and that will upset the people who hear it, or it will be quite true and will offend on a stronger level...
​

 

[Da Blob]

Unfortunately, justified as it may be, saying that kind of thing is going to get you despised and marginalized in a school situation. Either it's unfair, and that will upset the people who hear it, or it will be quite true and will offend on a stronger level...
​

LOL that is soooo True!
" Damn if you Do, Damned if you Don't
but I love it"

 

[cheese]

Sagewolf:
I have to explain that to people constantly, that when I say something, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm 100% sure of it

Yes yes yes! And when I do explain they see it as a sign of weakness although I probably have as much information as they do when they make a claim; they're simply not as cautious with it. Our 100% is probably their 200%. People see my admissions of doubt as permission to walk all over me, which is very frustrating. Some of my friends have recommended standing up for myself, or doubting less. I find this difficult to do because the thing is, I'm not sure if I'm being careful or if I really don't know what I'm talking about.

I wasn't really talking about a change of mind, more a clarification of our thoughts that leads us to verbally qualify our position. Sometimes this comes after talking for a while, when you realise this qualification is threaded throughout all you've said but was not stated in the beginning (the usual N jumping ahead of T). When stated it is seen as convenient inconsistency.