Vegetarian?

[JoeJoe]

A lot of famous INTPs have been vegetarians and I was wondering how many other INTPs are vegetarians and since I have found no other thread on this I will post it now.
I myself have been brought up as a vegetarian for religious reasons. I'm now 16 and have decided that I will continue living on as a vegetarian but I'm ok with eating small amounts of meat when I'm a guest.

 

[Chimera]

I feel guilty about eating meat, because of how the animals are treated, and I feel like I should be vegetarian...but I do like the taste every now and then. The only thing I would have a hard time giving up is chicken. I dunno. I may end up turning vegetarian when I get out of a house that lives off meat.

 

[Ogion]

I'm vegetarian. Has some different reasons. The cognitive one () is that the meat-industry is a giant waste of energy and nutrition (and water). You need somewhere around 8-10 Kg of corn to produce 1 kg of meat. Not to mention the masses of water, all the antibiotics they use (which for example create immunities in the bacteria...)...
For me personnally there is also a "disgust-reason". IMO (yea, in caps lock, so that it is clear that this is my own view and only applies to me) i find it disgusting, when i think about that i am chewing on a piece of muscle (or worse) of a former living, feeling being.

And since i don't miss the taste or anything, being Vegetarian doesn't need any second thought of it.

Ogion

 

[Luzian]

I'm about to go vegitarian because meat makes you feel sluggish, and it makes you STINK! Especially if you eat beef and onions, then down a beer.

 

[Waterstiller]

I cried over a cow one day as I was watching an episode of 30 days where a hunter lives with a vegan family. I was half-way through a chicken sandwich at the time and I couldn't finish it. I had been wanting to go vegetarian for a couple years, but it was too difficult to do it with the peer pressure because I didn't know any vegetarians. I ended up just eating cereal for the first 3 days while I worked out a new diet.

I'm vegetarian for other reasons as well, but that was the incident that did it.

 

[Snail]

I am a vegetarian, but I'm not an INTP. My parents raised animals for food when I was growing up, and I got attached to them. I was expected to participate when the animals were slaughtered, and it was extremely traumatic for me to watch my pets being murdered in front of me. The pigs were the hardest to deal with, because they had distinct personalities. They came when I called and liked it when I sang to them.

The whole event was always bloody and violent. The pigs knew when one of them was about to be killed, and they would all start to panic. I was unable to effectively comfort them.

There was one cow I especially liked, having bottle fed her as a calf and raised her to be tame. She had been born on Easter, and she was beautiful. When she died, she kicked and twitched on the ground for a while, fighting to hold onto her life. I remember hosing the blood off of the cement slab where she was hung and bled. I watched my dad dig a hole for her entrails. It all seemed so brutal.

When I cried, my parents blamed me. They said that I wouldn't have gotten so attached if I hadn't named the animals. This wasn't true. When my family would serve the animals for dinner, I refused to eat them. I usually had cereal instead.

Now that I am an adult vegetarian, I face a lot of opposition for my personal decision. The arguments come from people who feel that my lifestyle is a silent accusation, and that by choosing to avoid meat, I pass judgment on their decision to eat it. In truth, if they didn't mention it, it would never come up. I don't boss people around. I have my personal reasons for what I do, and I understand that their experiences have been different. I am constantly having to defend my vegetarianism because it is mistaken for judgmentalism or extremism. I wish that they would understand that I just can't bring myself to eat meat, no matter how badly they want me to.

 

[Ogion]

Yeah, that's one thing i never understand. Many people who eat meat get insulted as it seems just by the presence of someone who doesn't eat it. The vegetarian doesn't even have to say anything.
Is it perhaps because some of them have their own bad conscience about it and now blame the vegetarian because he/she succeeded in beecoming one and they not? (Talking about the people who get angry just upon mentioning that one is vegetarian).

Ogion

 

[Luzian]

Ogion, it goes the other way around too.

 

[NoID10ts]

Snail, that is disturbing. I think I'd be a vegetarian too, if I had to kill my food, or see it get killed. One of my bothers-in-law killed a goat and cooked it, but after seeing him cut its throat, I said "Oh, hell no. I'm not eating that!"

I'm not a vegetarian, but I find myself wanting to eat less and less meat. Not for moral reasons, but dietary reasons. I am trying to cut out red meat entirely and limit chicken or turkey as much as possible.

It's hard when you are surrounded by meat all the time. Fucking Texans take meat, wrap it in more meat, and top it off with yet more meat. If you think I'm exagerrating, check out the local favorite Turducken (developed in Louisiana which is only an hour and a half away). Meat is a way of life here.

Plus, it doesn't help that my wife uses meat in most of her cooking because that is what she is used to. It's how her Mom cooked and its how she cooks. Mexican cooking utilizes a lot of meat so everytime I eat with her family its a big meat extravaganza.

Perhaps we should start a vegetarian recipe thread.

 

[grey matters]

My ancestors didn't claw their way to the top of the food chain so they could eat vegetables. I eat meat.

 

[NoID10ts]

My ancestors didn't claw their way to the top of the food chain so they could eat vegetables. I eat meat.

Damn Texans!

 

[Agent Intellect]

most meat i don't really like the taste of. i think steak and prime rib is rather overrated. i fucking love chicken and hamburgers though. i don't feel bad about the death of livestock (they'd die in the wild, anyway). i guess it sort of goes with the fact that i don't have much aversion to violence, because i could watch the entire slaughterhouse process of a cow and still eat the hamburgers made from it.

 

[Ogion]

Ogion, it goes the other way around too.

I know. There are many extremist vegetarians with a mission out there, only i am not one of them. These two groups though can only think in these two groups meaning they have this Bush-mentality: "Either you are with us or you are against us!"

Ogion

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

I've been thinking about becoming vegetarian, for buddhist "respect all life" reasons. But I'm not that much of a buddhist yet... and as for now, meat is still damn tastey.

 

[anemian]

I eat meat, but when I choose the menu I tend to have less meat in it than everyone else I know would put in.

edit: Also a Wisconsinite hunter on occasion. prepped freshly killed deer for hanging and the sort. venison tastes pretty good still.

 

[grey matters]

Damn Texans!

Don't forget, after wrapping their meat with meat and then wrapping the whole thing up with more meat they deep fry it as well. Welcome to the Southern United States where they will deep fry anything they can get their hands on! (Cross your legs NoI.)

Oh, and their idea of a vegetable dish is candied yams cooked in butter (real butter not that funky margarine shit) and marshmallows.

-I agree, Damn Texans and all that, but I still choose to eat meat.-

 

[Ogion]

Woah, that is disgusting. "Candied yams cooked in butter and marshmallows"? I think i'm going to get sick

Ogion

 

[grey matters]

If you eat it too fast you will. By the way they have figured out a way to deep fry twinkies and Oreo cookies and serve them on a stick so that you don't have to sit down to eat them. Now that's junk food on the go!!

 

[Snail]

I saw that at a fair, once. I didn't eat it, of course, because it sounded disgusting, and I think twinkies probably have lard in them.

 

[grey matters]

-and a very long list of difficult to pronounce chemicals, as I recall.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I eat whatever I darn well please. Candied yams displeases me so I don't eat them. Today I have lived off banana nut muffins I made this morning. That and pomegranite juice. That will probably be my dinner too but tomorrow I make turkey chilli. I spent almost all of last week eating frickin' vegetables so few this week.

 

[Raison D'etre]

Coffins
A can of sardines, tuna or sausages,
May often taste quite delicious.
But aren't you just prying open coffins
And feeding on stinking corpses.

Meat
In the character "meat," there are two people,
The one outside gobbles up the one inside.
Stop to think it over--
Isn't it just people eating people?

I read these a couple of years back and succeeded in not eating meat for a day. For a damn Texan, I think I did pretty well.

 

[grey matters]

I tried to amend my carnivorous habits,
made it nearly 70 days.
Loosing weight without speed eating sunflower seeds,
drinki'n lots of carrot juice and soaking up rays

But at night I'd have these wonderful dreams
of some kind a sensuous treat.
Not zuchinni fettichine over a wheatie.
But a big warm bun and a HUGE chunk a meat.

It was a cheese burger in paradise.
- Jimmy Buffet

 

[NoID10ts]

Wastin away again in margaritaville
Searching for my lost shaker of salt
Some people claim that theres a woman to blame
But I know its my own damn fault

-Jimmy Buffet


I love that song.

 

[grey matters]

Apparently NoI is on a liquid diet.

 

[Ermine]

Everything in moderation. I wouldn't feel guilty eating meat unless the animal's endangered or the animal is not well used ex) shark fin soup.

 

[Fleur]

For me, the eating meat or vegetables depends on seasons. In summer I mostly eat vegetables, but in winter I sometimes feel an urge for meat because my body needs more energy to keep itself warm.

 

[grey matters]

Ermie, My mom went to Jackson Hole a few years ago and brought back a cookbook that was quit a few decades old....before many of the animals required in the recipes got on the endangered species list. In a sick sort of way she thought it was funny enough to buy. She of course re named it the endangered species cookbook.

 

[saffyangelis]

Vegetarian!

 

[Luzian]

If we are what we eat, I'm thinking about eating vegetarians

 

[Auburn]

I'm vegatarian.

It's not for sympathy towards animals, but because I don't have that slothful feeling that I used to have all the time. I didn't even realize I was so sluggish until I stopped eating meat altogether.

The benefits are well worth it, especially considering how easy it is because I have no craving for it.

My ancestors didn't claw their way to the top of the food chain so they could eat vegetables. I eat meat.

What's interesting is that if you study the anatomy of the human body, you'll find more similarities in it's structure to that of a herbavor than a carnivor. The teeth, for example, are flat like thoose of a cow or a deer. The length of the gastrointestinal tract is extremely long; making for a thourough digestion process.

Carnivors, like pigs for instance, have very short GI tracts and ingested food becomes part of their flesh in just a few hours. Cows and other herbavors go through extensive digestive processes to get all the nutrience possible out of their food.

 

[NoID10ts]

I'm vegatarian.

It's not for sympathy towards animals, but because I don't have that slothful feeling that I used to have all the time. I didn't even realize I was so sluggish until I stopped eating meat altogether.

The benefits are well worth it, especially considering how easy it is because I have no craving for it.

Yes. That's why I'm trying to ween myself off meat as much as I can. When I go stretches with little to no meat, I just feel better. It's probably a futile pursuit though. I like it too much.

 

[FusionKnight]

What's interesting is that if you study the anatomy of the human body, you'll find more similarities in it's structure to that of a herbavor than a carnivor. The teeth, for example, are flat like thoose of a cow or a deer. The length of the gastrointestinal tract is extremely long; making for a thourough digestion process.

Carnivors, like pigs for instance, have very short GT tracts and ingested food becomes part of their flesh in just a few hours. Cows and other herbavors go through extensive digestive processes to get all the nutrience possible out of their food.

Herbavores require longer digestive processes not for efficiency's sake, but because it's darned hard to digest grass and leaves because of their high fiber content. You have to digest it thoroughly to get any nutrition out of it.

Humans are definitely omnivores. Our molar teeth are designed to be crushers, like those of a cow or deer, but our canines are designed to be tearers, like (surprise) a dog. Meat contains fats and proteins which are highly useful in situations where the food supply is unstable, or in climates that are cold. The digestion of protein produces heat, and fats are an excellent store of energy.

Personally, I do eat meat, though it's a pretty small part of my diet. Mainly we eat fish, chicken, ground beef, and venison. The main reason we don't eat much meat is that it's expensive, its preparation is more complicated (and time consuming), and our freezer (until recently) was too small to store much meat anyway.

My favorite meats are seafood (crab, lobster, fish, squid, octopus), lamb, venison, and goat. I like beef okay, we rarely eat pork (except for bacon), and chicken is sort of generic (but good).

My wife and I are avid gardeners, so summer is usually a nearly all vegetable season for us. Fall brings us venison, and winter typically has us eating a larger percentage of meat in our diet.

I've never really understood the so-called "moral" objection to eating meat. From a purely naturalistic view, humans eating meat is no different that a lion eating a kudu. Granted, one may object to the ways in which we produce meat, but surely that's a different objection entirely than the actual human consumption of meat.

 

[grey matters]

Isn't eating meat what caused us to evolve. Bigger brains need more protein, and in order to feed the bigger brain we needed better tools and hunting methods so only those with the biggest brains survived, but those much bigger brains needed more protein and so the cycle restarts.

 

[FusionKnight]

Actually, the human brain can only metabolize glucose which is a sugar broken down from starches, or found naturally in fruit. It's muscle that requires protein.

 

[JoeJoe]

Isn't it also our big brains that should now keep us from eating meat? world hunger and water problems would be much easier to handle if we didn't eat meat. Also, for instance big fishing can cause big ecosystems to collapse.

I think in another thread someone quoted how Socrates argued for vegetarianism.

 

[Ogion]

Fusion: About that appeal to nature. What's 'natural' is not alway 'right', because right is a whole different thing. I always found that appeal to be a bit cowardish, no offence intended. I mean, only because it is 'normal', 'standard', 'natural' makes it right? Natural is that a disabled child gets killed or abandoned in times of unstable food supply, because it wouldn't be much use later and still eats. Would that be right?
Besides. There have been times when we needed to feed upon animals, times with short and unstable vegetarian food supply. That is probably becasue we as mostly herbivores developed some ability to process meat. It doesn't matter when considering reasons for a todays diet coice. We're not in short and unstable food supply. We can live perfectly healthy being a vegetarian. Actually, eating meat (on a larger scale than once a week) has negative effects on yourt health. Heart problems, cancer, many of those come from overconsumption of meat (especially beef, if i reacall correctly).

So, it is no doubt your choce. But don't argue with arguemtns which are not right. You eat meat? Fine. But you're not eating it because ten thousand years ago they had to eat meat.

Ogion

 

[Ancalion]

I hate vegan food. And i hate veggies that say : The poor chicken is treated inhumane. FYI is an animal, not a person.

 

[Auburn]

There have been times when we needed to feed upon animals, times with short and unstable vegetarian food supply. That is probably becasue we as mostly herbivores developed some ability to process meat. It doesn't matter when considering reasons for a todays diet coice. We're not in short and unstable food supply. We can live perfectly healthy being a vegetarian.

I agree with this. The human body is more adept to be vegetarian, however it can also manage with meat if circumstances damand it. Fusion, I agree, however, that the human body may actually be omnivorous. I was simply pointing out how it's anatomy has more similarities to a herbavor than a carnivor.

As to whether it is 'right' or not - I think that's a whole other can of worms. I prefer to stick only with scientific information for discussion's sake.

[This is quickly becoming a Veggies vs Meaties thread! ]

 

[Ogion]

Well, what can you do, it always does (turn into that kinda thread)
And yea, that is the reason i really rarely speak about it anymore than saying "I'm a vegetarian".

Ogion

 

[FusionKnight]

Fusion: About that appeal to nature. What's 'natural' is not alway 'right', because right is a whole different thing. I always found that appeal to be a bit cowardish, no offence intended. I mean, only because it is 'normal', 'standard', 'natural' makes it right? Natural is that a disabled child gets killed or abandoned in times of unstable food supply, because it wouldn't be much use later and still eats. Would that be right?

What I've observed in my experience has been a high correlation between those who advocate vegetarianism and those who advocate a secular-humanist world view. Perhaps I'm anticipating the argument a bit, but it seems to me a secular-humanism and naturalism are very closely linked, and secular-humanism is amoral. Therefore if one were to hold both "moral"-vegetarian and secular-humanist views, one would be in contradiction.

I agree with this. The human body is more adept to be vegetarian, however it can also manage with meat if circumstances damand it. Fusion, I agree, however, that the human body may actually be omnivorous. I was simply pointing out how it's anatomy has more similarities to a herbavor than a carnivor.

Consider some people in the world, like the Inuit, who's diet consists of almost entirely animals. This is true for many people in extreme latitudes because the growing season is so short, for those in very arid climates where agriculture is difficult due to lack of water, or in island nations where there is no available land for agriculture.

Edit:

[This is quickly becoming a Veggies vs Meaties thread! ]

Well, what can you do, it always does (turn into that kinda thread)
And yea, that is the reason i really rarely speak about it anymore than saying "I'm a vegetarian".

That's no reason not to debate! Oh, and before I forget, Meaties for the Win! :P

 

[Auburn]

^ Oh you're asking for it!

I'll show you some statistics later, I have to go for now.

 

[Nightingale]

Just chiming in with my own approach.

I doubt I could even bring myself to kill my own meat. But I do eat it. I find that grains cause me a great deal of trouble. If my dinner centers on grains, I will wake up with swollen hands and feet in the morning. They also make me more lethargic and contribute to brain fog. And I can't digest them well. (But no, I don't have Celiac Disease.)

Optimal functioning, for me, comes from eating fruits, vegetables, oils, and meat. I have more energy, no stomach pains, and can think more clearly when I eat like that. A small amount of dairy is okay, too, but will cause brain fog for me if I over-indulge.

I don't have the willpower to cut out grains entirely, because I enjoy the taste. But keeping grain consumption to a minimum helps me feel my best.

The idea of people killing animals really bothers me, but in my case this is more of a PTSD thing than a moral issue. I've seen a sociopath graduate from animal torture... to animal killing .... to targeting humans. I am grateful that there are people out there to kill my meat for me, but I worry about the mental health of someone who could do that on a regular basis. Something that has helped me a bit on this front is reading Temple Grandin's books. I respect her a great deal.

 

[Ogion]

What I've observed in my experience has been a high correlation between those who advocate vegetarianism and those who advocate a secular-humanist world view. Perhaps I'm anticipating the argument a bit, but it seems to me a secular-humanism and naturalism are very closely linked, and secular-humanism is amoral. Therefore if one were to hold both "moral"-vegetarian and secular-humanist views, one would be in contradiction.

Wait a minute. First of, i didn't speak of any secular-humanism. Will you please not lay words in my mouth?
Then: I made no moral point about Vegetarianism itself. I talked about "natural" and "moral" not being the same things. I ground my actions into a certain moral/ethical set, my own. Of course i do, everybody does. However, i did not morality into this debate, you did. You implied by your stating eating animals would be natural a moral justification. I only responded to that and said the above.
Then: Your logic there is kinda flawed. Why is secular-humanism amoral? You give no reason for that...And why would it be 'contradictory' to have both moral views and views without morality? There are mayn different things to have a view on, one might very well have different approachs for different things. But anyway, this is not really the point here, is it?

Consider some people in the world, like the Inuit, who's diet consists of almost entirely animals. This is true for many people in extreme latitudes because the growing season is so short, for those in very arid climates where agriculture is difficult due to lack of water, or in island nations where there is no available land for agriculture.

Not directed to me, i will still answer. What's the point? There are many people as well who only eat herbal food. I ate perhaps one or two kg of meat in the last 10 years.

Edit:
That's no reason not to debate! Oh, and before I forget, Meaties for the Win! :P

That is a reason not to debate. I don't have no fun or use in this kinda debates. I'm not interested in 'converting' people, in "advocating vegetarianism", as you put it. I am not about "Veggies for the win", i don't care about that.

I'll be leaving this thread now, no sense for me to stay.

Ogion

 

[FusionKnight]

Wait a minute. First of, i didn't speak of any secular-humanism. Will you please not lay words in my mouth?
Then: I made no moral point about Vegetarianism itself. I talked about "natural" and "moral" not being the same things. I ground my actions into a certain moral/ethical set, my own. Of course i do, everybody does. However, i did not morality into this debate, you did. You implied by your stating eating animals would be natural a moral justification. I only responded to that and said the above.
Then: Your logic there is kinda flawed. Why is secular-humanism amoral? You give no reason for that...And why would it be 'contradictory' to have both moral views and views without morality? There are mayn different things to have a view on, one might very well have different approachs for different things. But anyway, this is not really the point here, is it?

I'm sorry Ogion, but you've totally misunderstood me.

I was pointing out that carnivorism is the natural state of human beings. I did not say that eating meat was a moral thing to do, merely that it was natural. You noted that "natural" and "moral" different things, and I agree.

My second post was simply explaining why I brought up the "natural" argument at all. In my experience, most people advocating vegetarianism for what they describe as "moral" reasons also seem to hold to a secular-humanist world view. My point is that I believe these two philosophical stances to be inconsistent with one another.

I'm not saying you are a secular-humanist at all. I was merely explaining why I brought up the naturalistic argument in the first place. Obviously I was arguing against an argument that hadn't really been made yet.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Optimal dietary needs vary from one individual to the next. What might be best for you may not be best for the person next to you. It's part of the reason why all of the fad diets tend to be just that, fads. Two individuals weighing 200 pounds could take the exact same diet and do the exact same exercises for 2 months, one might lose 20 pounds the second might lose a mere 5.

Meat eaters AND vegetarians have their own different health problems relating to their diet. Vegetarians have the more difficult task of varying their diet as much as possible to avoid various malnutrition disorders because they need to make up for many of the nutrients that are more common in meat. It's possible to do but requires your attention and could be expensive.

Being a vegetarian and healthy is really only possible in this window of time. Before, aquiring all the neccesary ingredients was difficult at best because most people lived off the food supplies of their immediate regions. What's locally available in Kansas may not be locally available in Kent.

If for ecological or energy reasons we decrease the shipping of various foodstuffs, being vegetarian may cause problems. I have heard that one of the effects of the current and looming energy crises will be that we decentralize our current food production to reduce shipping costs. Food for thought

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

In my experience, most people advocating vegetarianism for what they describe as "moral" reasons also seem to hold to a secular-humanist world view. My point is that I believe these two philosophical stances to be inconsistent with one another.

How so? It seems you are saying that "moral" can only be applied to faith.

As to secular humanists being the most likely to advocate vegetarianism for moral reasons, Uhmmmmm, well that's probably true here in the States and other segments of the "western world". Other parts of the world I believe it to be different.

 

[Ogion]

I'm sorry Ogion, but you've totally misunderstood me.

I was pointing out that carnivorism is the natural state of human beings. I did not say that eating meat was a moral thing to do, merely that it was natural. You noted that "natural" and "moral" different things, and I agree.

My second post was simply explaining why I brought up the "natural" argument at all. In my experience, most people advocating vegetarianism for what they describe as "moral" reasons also seem to hold to a secular-humanist world view. My point is that I believe these two philosophical stances to be inconsistent with one another.

I'm not saying you are a secular-humanist at all. I was merely explaining why I brought up the naturalistic argument in the first place. Obviously I was arguing against an argument that hadn't really been made yet.

Hm, yea ok, i perhaps didn't read good enough

Though towards that secular-humanist thing. Why do you think morality can only exist in the realm of religion? Really. I mean i feel like i have morals, but i am definiteley not religious ad even less believer.

Ogion

 

[FusionKnight]

How so? It seems you are saying that "moral" can only be applied to faith.

Okay, fine. I also equate, based on personal experience, secular-humanism with relativism.

 

[NoID10ts]

Man: Well, what've you got?

Waitress: Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam; spam bacon sausage and spam; spam egg spam spam bacon and spam; spam sausage spam spam bacon spam tomato and spam;

Vikings: Spam spam spam spam...

Waitress: ...spam spam spam egg and spam; spam spam spam spam spam spam baked beans spam spam spam...

Vikings: Spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam!

Waitress: ...or Lobster Thermidor a Crevette with a mornay sauce served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines garnished with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top and spam.

Wife: Have you got anything without spam?

Waitress: Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.

Wife: I don't want ANY spam!

Man: Why can't she have egg bacon spam and sausage?

Wife: THAT'S got spam in it!

Man: Hasn't got as much spam in it as spam egg sausage and spam, has it?