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Validity

MichiganJFrog

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What do you do when you see or hear something that challenges the validity of the MBTI? I'll admit I read something yesterday that had me reeling. I was floored. It turned my world upside. I was up all night trying to deal with it and then called in sick to work, that's how upsetting it was.

Thanks in advance.
 

Hadoblado

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Could you elaborate on your situation?

MBTI is a useful model, if something is challenging it I don't foresee myself losing too much sleep.
 

Fukyo

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For starters don't put that much FAITH in it, don't center your worldview and identity around it; and secondly adapt your beliefs and knowledge accordingly.

Typology is faaar from being set in stone.
 

MichiganJFrog

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I know this is putting all my eggs in one basket, but the MBTI and being an INTP are pretty much the key to me seeing myself as normal. If they're called into question and rejected for lack of validity, I'm back where I started. I know that the foundation I'm trying to build needs to consist of more than just one element, but I feel that this is a pretty crucial element. In my mind, if it goes, so goes everything else.
 

MichiganJFrog

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For starters don't put that much FAITH in it, don't center your worldview and identity around it

Quite right. Unfortunately, that's what I did, even though there were little voices telling me to beware. I feel like a religious zealot who's been confronted with the truth. I trust that in time, my initial reaction will moderate somewhat.
 

MichiganJFrog

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Anyway, here's the link to what I was reading, in case anyone's interested.
 

Master M

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The MBTI simply confermed what I already knew about myself and solidified it.

you want to talk?
 

MichiganJFrog

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The MBTI simply confermed what I already knew about myself and solidified it.

It did for me, too. Then this Pittenger guy comes along and poo-poos the whole thing. Since then, I've downloaded about 10 studies on construct validity or reliability or some such measure. Seems like it comes out about 50-50 in favor of the MBTI being legit, which is not too reassuring.

Then there's the whole question of, is the author carrying someone's water? How can you tell how independent they are? I can't go by what the MBTI people tell me, much as I'd like to. Nor can I let myself be swayed by someone who's trying to compete with the MBTI.

However, even this critical study at least acknowledges the legitimacy of extraversion and introversion as personality traits that are BOTH NORMAL. What really scares me, if I read it right, is the Five-Factor Model, which seems to maintain that there's extraversion, and then everything else is neuroticism. I simply won't go back to that. And Eysenck seems like a douche.
 

Fukyo

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Anyway, here's the link to what I was reading, in case anyone's interested.


This is pretty old news, I recalled it being discussed before. As an aside, I can't believe this just hit you now - you're on a forum hosting multiple perspectives and discussions about this very issue. :D


So yeah anyway, you haven't even taken the official MBTI, or have you? I take it for granted that MBTI testing is flawed, esspecially online tests Chill out and explore the various perspectives.

P.S. Big Five and MBTI are different models.
 

MichiganJFrog

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This is pretty old news, I recalled it being discussed before. As an aside, I can't believe this just hit you now - you're on a forum hosting multiple perspectives and discussions about this very issue. :D

Hey, I'm still wet behind the ears! Gimme some time to catch up! :p

So yeah anyway, you haven't even taken the official MBTI, or have you?

I don't remember. I think I took it through work.

Chill out and explore the various perspectives.

Best advice I've heard all day. Thanks! :)
 

Moocow

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The free online tests are generally unreliable and invalid but you'll find that many of the people on here no longer bother with them. MBTI is a test made to figure out what someone's type is but the basis for the profiled results is still Jung's cognitive functions, which are much more interesting and reliable for typing someone.

Besides, you don't need Jung or Myers Briggs to tell you if you're normal or not. Like Fukyo said, there's a lot of perspectives to be explored and you can't give anyone's particular opinion too much credit. "Normal" is a dirty word here anyways.
 
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*In the process of shooting the author (Pittenger) down. Will post results when completed.*
 

MichiganJFrog

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the basis for the profiled results is still Jung's cognitive functions

This guy went after Jung, too. Said the only rigorous scientific study Jung ever did had to do with astrology. AFAICT, though, Jung put his theories into practice and got good results with them. Just seems like this guy had some kind of axe to grind.

Like Fukyo said, there's a lot of perspectives to be explored and you can't give anyone's particular opinion too much credit.

I know. I'm always telling other people not to do that.
 
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The only thing he disproves is that the MBTI can't predict one's occupation, which we already know. Predicting one's occupation is the major "business" aspect of the MBTI (which certainly would have helped boost his ascention into the ranks not of research, but an administration at a different university) but that's by no means its purpose.

Construct validity is the measurement of latent constructs that can't physically be measured. You can't just whip out someone's attitude or belief toward something and put a ruler next to it. Because of this, we must measure operationalized variables that serve as a proxy to estimate the latent construct.

Statistical Structure

He makes the serious mistake of putting the MBTI in the context of a bimodal distribution, which is B.S. The data can't even be described using a curve. He's reading into something that is not there.

The data is not ordinal or continuous. According to the MBTI, one is either fully option A or fully option B based on a dichotomy. One is either an introvert or an extrovert, which determine one's functions, the order in which they are preferred, etc. Someone who tests 51% introvert has the exact same functions in the same order as someone who tests 99% introvert. He's assuming the data is continuous, i.e. introversion is on a measureable scale of 1-100, when the MBTI predicts that introverted functions will be expressed at a certain frequency under different sets of conditions.

Reliability

Using a mental image of an archer shooting at a target, validity refers to the distance of a given measure/arrow from the truth/center and reliability refers to the repeatability, i.e. do the arrows hit the same spot over and over.

Validity and reliability are increased by triangulating operationalized variables and repeated sampling, both of which the MBTI does quite well, which is why it takes so $^%*(& long to complete the real assessment because there are so many questions.

He states that a single test-retest sample (two total) is enough to establish reliability, which is the absolute biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard in reference to scientific inquiry. Reliability can only be established after several repeated measures.

More importantly, using standard error as a statistic implies that the data is ordinal or continuous, which it isn't. He himself mentions this in the second to last paragraph in the reliability section. Even if the data was as he envisions, even a massive standard error doesn't disprove that the proposed relationship that results in functions and their preferences doesn't exist, but points to the notion that the variables being used as a proxy have not been well operationalized.

Validity

Factor analysis is not the appropriate method of analysis because it does not account for the order of preference of the functions. It's nothing close to the 4 simple factorial categories he describes, but at least 8 (Ti, Te, Ni, Ne, Si, Se, Fi, Fe) which are distinctly different, and that's not accounting for the order of the functions, which would be 16 (INTP, ESFJ, etc). The variation in the dataset will exist because different types share the same functions, but in a different order of preference. The man needs to do some research on cluster analysis because the MBTI cannot be pidgeonholed into his 2x2 factorial box.

I'll cut off my wall of text tangent here.
 
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Just seems like this guy had some kind of axe to grind.

I'm willing to bet that Marietta College was considering using the MBTI to evaluate students and pidgeonholeing them into "ideal careers", and he felt compelled to rebuff the idea.
 

MichiganJFrog

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He states that a single test-retest sample (two total) is enough to establish reliability, which is the absolute biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard in reference to scientific inquiry. Reliability can only be established after several repeated measures.

I may be out of my depth, but yeah, that's what I thought. That's why they do longitudinal studies, isn't it? And if he were right, you'd only need to do, what, one study with two samples in it and that would be it?

And to prove one of his points about bimodality, Pittenger compared personality to height. I think personality is a little more complex than height. The various aspects of an individual's personality are always there, but different ones emerge under different circumstances or become more pronounced with age. On the other hand, I have been 6' 2" for approximately the past 30 years, no matter who I'm with or what we're doing.

That's my read on the situation, anyway.
 
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And to prove one of his points about bimodality, Pittenger compared personality to height. I think personality is a little more complex than height. The various aspects of an individual's personality are always there, but different ones emerge under different circumstances or become more pronounced with age.

Sort of. Personality is more complex than height (or is it? see below), but the MBTI doesn't actually work to quantify that complexity. It simply states "people fall into categories A-P which are uniquely distinct from one another." It measures the latent constructs arguably as best as they can be measured.

For example, if the MBTI were used to assess height, it would break it up into categories of leg length, pelvis length, spinal length, and neck/head length, and then assign people to different categories based on possible combinations of long or short. Two people could be the exact same height while one has short legs and the other a long neck.

On the other hand, I have been 6' 2" for approximately the past 30 years, no matter who I'm with or what we're doing.

That's the same concept behind personality development. It may be open to external factors up to a certain point, i.e. food quality can help determine your height and the actions of your parents at an early age can guide you to develop specific processes, but after that point is crossed it's pretty much set in stone. Even if you lose 4 inches of height from now until age 87 due to changes in bone structure, you're still a pretty tall old dude, and you can be compared to everyone else your age, who will have also lost height.
 

MichiganJFrog

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MichiganJFrog

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the actions of your parents at an early age can guide you to develop specific processes, but after that point is crossed it's pretty much set in stone.

Yup. I think that if the situation calls for it, you can become the opposite of what you are, but I don't think you should keep it up forever. I think I've seen the damage that can do.

I have heard a couple introverted women say that when they became mothers they had to summon their inner extravert to keep the household running. I just find it incredible that Pittenger couldn't recognize that dormant personality traits might occasionally come to the fore depending on the situation.

I go to grad school with a lot of other IxxP people who are one-third to one-half my age and not at all comfortable or even knowledgeable about this personality trait. When I've had to do projects with them, I've had to go from being a P to being a temporary J who can make executive decisions just to keep things moving forward -- "Okay, this is what we're going to do, kids." If I had to do that over the long term, I think smoke would start coming out of my ears. And if there's a real J in the group, I don't have to do it at all.
 
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