Valid Feelings

[Minuend]

I always have a need to feel justified for my feelings to allow them any presence in my mind. This means that if I don't find the reasoning behind my feelings valid, I will discard and ignore them.

So what is a "valid feeling"?

Well. This week has been kinda annoying at work, and Friday I was very irritated as result. It's just small things co-workers do that annoys you and when you get enough of that without any positive input, you get irritated.

But, I don't feel justified feeling that irritation. Because irritation is a very redundant thing that doesn't solve anything, and the only one who is affected by it, is yourself. Well, unless your self-control is so poor you take it out on others. I try to always take not to do this. If I feel I can't control myself to a certain degree, I shy away from others until I calm down. Same with sadness.

The problem that has arisen by doing this is the obliviousness to own emotions and thoughts. I think they tend to stick around and influence my state of mind without me noticing. I was about 23 and my doctor told me that dreaded feeling I felt every morning when waking up was probably depression. That baffled me. At least now I'm more aware of the signs of an on-coming depression.

The reasons for me acting like this are several. I want to have control over my emotions. As other aspects of my life, I want some logic I can understand behind it. I want to mature as a person where I'm able to focus on the larger picture and how things and motivations work. I want to calm my mind so that I can try to achieve a less biased truth.

So, what's the point of this thread. Not sure. Anything goes.

Also @Words because he asked me.

 

[Architect]

I don't see emotions as something that need to be controlled, they're just information. -skip

 

[Minuend]

They are something to be managed.

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiety#Signs_and_symptoms

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anger#Cognitive_effects

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_(biology)

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_rage

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jealousy

 

[Moocow]

Are you talking about behaviors or subjective states?

 

[Minuend]

Hmm. Both? What do you mean, exactly?

 

[Moocow]

Hmm. Both? What do you mean, exactly?

I can feel anger and I can act angrily, like throw an object at the wall or punch a pillow or say something really harsh. The anger itself, on the other hand, is the changes in my body and the rush of thoughts accompanying it.

I can experience the latter without continuing to the former, so it seems to make more sense to say we can manage our behaviors but I see no reason to reject the emotional state itself. As architect said, at that stage it is just information and there's something to be learned from it. I don't really understand how you might "discard" it anyways.

 

[Minuend]

Ah. Well then I misinterpreted his statement.

I'll use irritation as a concrete example.

A shift in perspective tend to decrease negative feelings. Or at least it has for me as I've aged. Instead of focusing on how someone's actions influence you, you focus on why they behave as they do and you come to see their behaviour as kinda innate and unavoidable. It's just how they are. This might sound like I'm letting people escape their behaviour. So I guess I should add that if I find someone behaviour towards me lacking in respect or so, I tend to cut them off. Not because I'm necessarily annoyed or take it personal, but because I see it as necessary to stop a vicious cycle that I would otherwise indirectly encourage.

Now if I'm driving a car and someone makes a mistake and cuts me off, getting annoyed is redundant. Getting angry and continue to feed that anger by justifying it by seeing the other driver as a moron is more destructive than anything. Stuff like that I alter by shifting my perspective. For instance, I see that I make mistakes in traffic as well and that getting cut off is not really a big deal. Same when I have to drive behind slowpokes. The roads around here aren't really great for driving past someone, so often you are forced to spend quite some time behind slowers.

I have very high standards as to when I don't have to invoke my tolerance. I'm never angry with another driver anymore.

I have been drinking a little so I fear this is getting incoherent. I think my point isn't getting across very clearly, precision has never been my strong side.

Continue asking me question and/ or critical remarks, perhaps I'll be able to convey my idea in time.

As to how one discards it. Hmm. It's more as refusing to think or feel a certain way. Rationalize it away and then stop thinking about it.

 

[Etheri]

Have you ever experienced points where this method wasn't enough? You validate feelings, and you only wish to only feel the 'valid' ones. This makes sense to me. However, have you ever noticed that, while your feelings weren't directly valid, you still felt them regardless? Points where your mind and feelings simply wouldn't agree with one another, and you couldn't simply shut one of them up?

 

[kvothe27]

If you want more "control" over your emotions, it would be useful to gain more understanding of them. Therapy and meditation can be useful for this goal. Therapy will help you expose emotions and accept them (group therapy was particularly helpful for me for this purpose). Meditation can provide a kind of self-therapy. It taught me not to fight my thoughts and emotions, but to recognize, accept them, and not impulsively get involved with them. Exercise is also helpful in that it helps me expend my excess fight-or-flight anxiety that's useless in a sedentary society. Getting rid of that excess energy will help cut down on episodes of irritation and help you think more objectively and usefully.


All three of these activities can help one achieve a more objective state of mind. Mindfulness in Plain English and Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain are two books I'd recommend for more information.

http://www.amazon.com/Spark-Revolut...&ie=UTF8&qid=1350849857&sr=1-1&keywords=spark

http://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-Plain-English-20th-Anniversary/dp/0861719069

 

[BigApplePi]

Many feelings are evident and appear to be understood. But feelings come from deeply within oneself. Lately I've been thinking of some, even those I've encountered in others on this very forum. Ask yourself this: If you believe something, there are feelings attached. Where do they come from? You think you know? How do you know this is not rationalization if others believe differently? Are they foolish and you smart? How do you know that? Could you be wrong? If you think something, are you aware you don't know where the feelings behind that thinking are coming from?

 

[Moocow]

If you want more "control" over your emotions, it would be useful to gain more understanding of them. Therapy and meditation can be useful for this goal. Therapy will help you expose emotions and accept them (group therapy was particularly helpful for me for this purpose). Meditation can provide a kind of self-therapy. It taught me not to fight my thoughts and emotions, but to recognize, accept them, and not impulsively get involved with them. Exercise is also helpful in that it helps me expend my excess fight-or-flight anxiety that's useless in a sedentary society. Getting rid of that excess energy will help cut down on episodes of irritation and help you think more objectively and usefully.


All three of these activities can help one achieve a more objective state of mind. Mindfulness in Plain English and Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain are two books I'd recommend for more information.

http://www.amazon.com/Spark-Revolut...&ie=UTF8&qid=1350849857&sr=1-1&keywords=spark

http://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-Plain-English-20th-Anniversary/dp/0861719069

Mindfulness in Plain English is free here:
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html

 

[Puffy]

Ah. Well then I misinterpreted his statement.

I'll use irritation as a concrete example.

A shift in perspective tend to decrease negative feelings. Or at least it has for me as I've aged. Instead of focusing on how someone's actions influence you, you focus on why they behave as they do and you come to see their behaviour as kinda innate and unavoidable. It's just how they are. This might sound like I'm letting people escape their behaviour. So I guess I should add that if I find someone behaviour towards me lacking in respect or so, I tend to cut them off. Not because I'm necessarily annoyed or take it personal, but because I see it as necessary to stop a vicious cycle that I would otherwise indirectly encourage.

Now if I'm driving a car and someone makes a mistake and cuts me off, getting annoyed is redundant. Getting angry and continue to feed that anger by justifying it by seeing the other driver as a moron is more destructive than anything. Stuff like that I alter by shifting my perspective. For instance, I see that I make mistakes in traffic as well and that getting cut off is not really a big deal. Same when I have to drive behind slowpokes. The roads around here aren't really great for driving past someone, so often you are forced to spend quite some time behind slowers.

I have very high standards as to when I don't have to invoke my tolerance. I'm never angry with another driver anymore.

I have been drinking a little so I fear this is getting incoherent. I think my point isn't getting across very clearly, precision has never been my strong side.

Continue asking me question and/ or critical remarks, perhaps I'll be able to convey my idea in time.

As to how one discards it. Hmm. It's more as refusing to think or feel a certain way. Rationalize it away and then stop thinking about it.

Yeah, that's interesting. I'm maybe a little similar, in that I often turn on myself rather than others, work out my own faults and responsibilities rather than others, simply because I know, to an extent, mine are all I can (try to) manage.

But, say you use the 'cut-off' example. I'm not sure I'd look to negate the emotion so far as deconstruct it. I think it's beneficial to understand what upsets you and why, because then it can be responded to. I worry that if someone keeps negating their emotions whether that would translate into suppression, which could bottle up into something more difficult to control. I'm projecting, probably, as I know that I used to do this.

I've tried to make significant breaks with my past before, only to find the thing I ran from erupt back in anger a year or two later. I agree that creating that fresh perspective is important, but I feel that that perspective would need to respond to your emotions you in some way, in order to pass them. Does 'controlling emotions' require an understanding of them, I guess I'm asking?

 

[Words]

Ah. Well then I misinterpreted his statement.

I'll use irritation as a concrete example.

A shift in perspective tend to decrease negative feelings. Or at least it has for me as I've aged. Instead of focusing on how someone's actions influence you, you focus on why they behave as they do and you come to see their behaviour as kinda innate and unavoidable. It's just how they are. This might sound like I'm letting people escape their behaviour. So I guess I should add that if I find someone behaviour towards me lacking in respect or so, I tend to cut them off. Not because I'm necessarily annoyed or take it personal, but because I see it as necessary to stop a vicious cycle that I would otherwise indirectly encourage.

Now if I'm driving a car and someone makes a mistake and cuts me off, getting annoyed is redundant. Getting angry and continue to feed that anger by justifying it by seeing the other driver as a moron is more destructive than anything. Stuff like that I alter by shifting my perspective. For instance, I see that I make mistakes in traffic as well and that getting cut off is not really a big deal. Same when I have to drive behind slowpokes. The roads around here aren't really great for driving past someone, so often you are forced to spend quite some time behind slowers.

I have very high standards as to when I don't have to invoke my tolerance. I'm never angry with another driver anymore.

I have been drinking a little so I fear this is getting incoherent. I think my point isn't getting across very clearly, precision has never been my strong side.

Continue asking me question and/ or critical remarks, perhaps I'll be able to convey my idea in time.

As to how one discards it. Hmm. It's more as refusing to think or feel a certain way. Rationalize it away and then stop thinking about it.

So basically, you'd rather be a pushover. That's kind of annoying. If someone errs you, then they have to be accountable for those actions. People are not objects, they are not simply "caused" by something else. They decide and exercise free will. They should be responsible. I think feelings are always "valid" even if it gets you into trouble. You should uh... express it more often.

 

[Puffy]

Mindfulness in Plain English is free here:
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html

My sister is doing her psychology thesis on mindfulness, funnily enough.

It's interesting as it may be similar to what Minuend's saying. Mindfulness teaches you to regard emotions as just thoughts, things you can detach from and dismiss - liberating in the sense that it teaches you to regard them as things you're not bound by.

I'm personally a little skeptical, but she's teaching me it at the moment, and if it works then it works.

 

[~~~]

Isn't it one where the conclusion follows from the premises?

 

[Niclmaki]

There are some feelings you may have that you cannot explain at all, and will likely struggle to rationalize them forever.
I personally don't think any feeling should be ignored. It's good to try and understand them, but if you feel a certain way you should just let that feeling do what naturally comes. If it isn't socially acceptable ( ie. yelling at someone for annoying you) then you find a different outlet. Like yelling into a pillow or something. If you ignore feelings they'll resurface later and you will have an even harder time understanding it.

 

[BigApplePi]

There are subjects for which many have strong feelings: sex, religion, politics are some big ones. Many who excel at thinking may differ with others who likewise excel. Sometimes a third entity (beyond thinking and feeling) enters the picture: action. When taking a strong position comes about which implies or threatens action, there is a clash of outlooks accompanied by feelings which may cause social difficulties. What do INTP's and others do?

 

[Etheri]

So basically, you'd rather be a pushover. That's kind of annoying. If someone errs you, then they have to be accountable for those actions. People are not objects, they are not simply "caused" by something else. They decide and exercise free will. They should be responsible. I think feelings are always "valid" even if it gets you into trouble. You should uh... express it more often.

I kindly disagree. Just because people deserve to be put in their place or out of their illusions, doesn't mean it's worth doing so.

Does simply leaving people that mistreat you make you a pushover, or the bigger person? What do you gain from fighting them? Will it fix the issues? Will it make either of you feel better? Sure, our feelings want us to fight when we feel wronged, but where does this lead us? (*)

When someone wrongs you, typically the last person they'll be willing to listen to is you, to begin with. A pushover because you just leave their lives? I wouldn't say. You just don't want to bother going through the same old fighting bullshit. It leads nowhere. You avoid it, because it's easier to forget the wrongs than to go through more of it.

I see two diffrent things to validating emotions, on the one end is 'where do they come from', 'why am I feeling this', 'is it justified?'. In this sense, tho I feel Minuend is arguing against this aswell, I'd say most feelings are 'valid'. Feelings of anger because someone wronged you are valid, assuming they have in fact wronged you.

And then there are the questions 'where do these emotions lead me', 'to what end','who am I to judge / am I a better person'... While alot of emotions may be confirmed as valid going through the first selection, this one is far more important. While anger to those who wronged you may be valid by earlier given ideas, it doesn't get you anywhere... More pain, more suffering, yay. Valid feelings? Useful feelings?

I understand where emotions come from, and I feel them too. It's just that often, I realise that letting them run simply leads nowhere. Knowing there's no point, should I let these feelings out? I feel i'm better off without them... Despite my imperfections, which obviously let them resurface. I'm talking about a selection of emotions and feelings, not emotions and feelings in general.


(*)Do not open until you've seen Se7en. (No seriously, watch it. It's a classic, it's good.)

Spoiler

Revenge, emotionally wronged,...
So you're saying the cop should kill the psycho or else he's a pushover...

But then again... Then psycho guy would've 'won'. And, as the movie nicely portraits, what would he have gained from it? Instant gratification coming with a debt he'd be paying the rest of this life?
I know it's not a perfect comparison, far from, but I'm trying to say walking away does not make you a pushover. Sometimes, telling your emotions to gtfo is simply the best option. Emotions are fickle things, after all.

 

[Words]

I kindly disagree. Just because people deserve to be put in their place or out of their illusions, doesn't mean it's worth doing so.

Well, that's up to you and your values.

I was going to appeal to social morality and argue slippery slopes and how it influences the larger political culture. Checks and Balances in the form of letting other people know that they're accountable for their actions means greater power equality for the entire society. Reason for corruption and power abuse is often the lack of regulation and pressure.

Does simply leaving people that mistreat you make you a pushover, or the bigger person? What do you gain from fighting them? Will it fix the issues? Will it make either of you feel better? Sure, our feelings want us to fight when we feel wronged, but where does this lead us? (*)

Again, it's up to what you believe in, but bullies stay as bullies largely because others won't stand up for themselves.

When someone wrongs you, typically the last person they'll be willing to listen to is you, to begin with. A pushover because you just leave their lives? I wouldn't say. You just don't want to bother going through the same old fighting bullshit. It leads nowhere. You avoid it, because it's easier to forget the wrongs than to go through more of it.

I wouldn't say it "leads nowhere" but hey, if you've gone through it all, then good for you. I don't think anyone is arguing for extremes. I just think that Minuend's case is an extreme. passiveness.

 

[pjoa09]

When someone cuts me I pass them. It helps ventilate and in the long run is safer. Obviously, they are unfit to drive in front of me.

 

[Minuend]

I don't really consider my method the one good solution. But I do find it as being almost a obsessive need to sort out my feelings this way.

Have you ever experienced points where this method wasn't enough? You validate feelings, and you only wish to only feel the 'valid' ones. This makes sense to me. However, have you ever noticed that, while your feelings weren't directly valid, you still felt them regardless? Points where your mind and feelings simply wouldn't agree with one another, and you couldn't simply shut one of them up?

Yes. There has been times when someone's action or words has left me with a sunken feeling for longer than I would care to admit. And then I get somewhat confused as I can't answer the question of why I'm upset. I start to dig deeper to see if there is a reason that particular situation would make me feel so strongly. Though, more usually I start to look at other things around me to see if my feelings come from another source. Because I have a difficult time understanding that seemingly small things are able to upset me.

But it always passes after a few days.

My last depressions have been about my personal life and inner turmoil, not how others have treated me. I haven't been depressed in 6 months, though.

Yeah, that's interesting. I'm maybe a little similar, in that I often turn on myself rather than others, work out my own faults and responsibilities rather than others, simply because I know, to an extent, mine are all I can (try to) manage.

Well, I guess I could to some degree be called arrogant at this point. I tend to hold myself accountable because I can control my behaviour. But I let other pass because I see them more fastened to their environment, personality and beliefs. They are like that, and there's nothing to do except accept that. Whilst when I error, that is source for great disappointment as if I should be some sort of super human not limit by the same boundaries as others.

It probably doesn't seem like it on this forum as I'm much harsher than in RL, but I do have great tolerance for other people's behaviour. But I guess in RL I'm better able to see why they might engulf in destructive behaviour. I'm going to address Word's pushover statement in a bit.

But, say you use the 'cut-off' example. I'm not sure I'd look to negate the emotion so far as deconstruct it. I think it's beneficial to understand what upsets you and why, because then it can be responded to. I worry that if someone keeps negating their emotions whether that would translate into suppression, which could bottle up into something more difficult to control. I'm projecting, probably, as I know that I used to do this.

Well, I just want to say that this doesn't actually give me any negative emotions. I just took some bizarre example.

But yes, that is the danger. And I think I somewhat have difficulty with that. Though, it could also be a lack of self-awareness. That I'm just not able to look into myself deeply enough.

I've tried to make significant breaks with my past before, only to find the thing I ran from erupt back in anger a year or two later. I agree that creating that fresh perspective is important, but I feel that that perspective would need to respond to your emotions you in some way, in order to pass them. Does 'controlling emotions' require an understanding of them, I guess I'm asking?

There also the matter of sometimes just learning not to care about something and let it go without obsessing.

I would say that to have a more healthy approach you'd have to understand them. So if my self-esteem was hurt by someone's behaviour I guess I could take that into the rationalization against it by telling me that such remarks doesn't change my innate worth or something like that. Not that I believe in worth or anything

Though, I guess most often I see the remark in the light of the utterer's personality. Often I put more weight to understanding where the remark is coming from, than how it influences me.

So basically, you'd rather be a pushover. That's kind of annoying. If someone errs you, then they have to be accountable for those actions. People are not objects, they are not simply "caused" by something else. They decide and exercise free will. They should be responsible. I think feelings are always "valid" even if it gets you into trouble. You should uh... express it more often.

(:

Well, these days it's very rare someone treats me badly. In RL I think I radiate some degree of positivity, at least people are always nice to me.

But my previous boss who now is my co-worker is a very negative person who got something in for me. I'm efficient, take initiative and am willing to work overtime anyday. Which annoys her greatly. Go figure. (The things she says about me behind my back gets back to me).

Anyway. Earlier she tended to correct me (and everyone else) for small things we did "wrong". In a very condescending and rude way. Yelling at people openly while other were present was not uncommon. And then next week she would do the thing she told us not to do.

So, one week there had been a lot of work to do with everyone running here and there. She decided to very angrily tell me I had done something wrong. That was the last drop for me. So I said in a very cold voice that she had no right talking to me that way and that if she wanted to correct me she could do so in a mature manner. Apparently that's not possible for her, because she has never corrected me again.

I don't really experience big personal conflicts.

But as mentioned, if someone wrongs me, then anger is a valid feeling. Though at some point I will have to reign it in, because feeling angry for a long period of time is unnecessary.

There are some feelings you may have that you cannot explain at all, and will likely struggle to rationalize them forever.
I personally don't think any feeling should be ignored. It's good to try and understand them, but if you feel a certain way you should just let that feeling do what naturally comes. If it isn't socially acceptable ( ie. yelling at someone for annoying you) then you find a different outlet. Like yelling into a pillow or something. If you ignore feelings they'll resurface later and you will have an even harder time understanding it.

The difficulty is balancing the allowing of feelings with not letting them getting the upper hand. If you allow your feelings to run free, then it will become more and more difficult to slow them down as time progresses. People who hit things when angry will find themselves less capable of controlling their anger.

Venting increases aggressive behavior over time.

 

[Niclmaki]

The difficulty is balancing the allowing of feelings with not letting them getting the upper hand. If you allow your feelings to run free, then it will become more and more difficult to slow them down as time progresses. People who hit things when angry will find themselves less capable of controlling their anger.

Wel I would suggest that is the first thing you should do, or it might just be a learned behaviour. Just acknowledge that you are angry. Even just saying it outloud or writing it down may be enough. Or the classic "count to ten." I just want to stress that ignoring fillings isn't a way to "deal" with them.

Thats interesting though, I never heard of that study. Might have to rethink and reform a few ideas I had. However, in the study I think it is unfair to have the punching bag people go straight to the next part. It kind of implies that once you get angry you will be venting non-stop. As in, no breaks between your activities in life. I suppose some people may live like that, but I do not know.

 

[Etheri]

I wouldn't say it "leads nowhere" but hey, if you've gone through it all, then good for you. I don't think anyone is arguing for extremes. I just think that Minuend's case is an extreme. passiveness.

It's not that I've gone through it all, it's more like... I don't really feel like i've ever gained anything much from fighting. =/ It always feels so ridiculously useless. Emotions, lies, half truths and honesty flying around covered beneath tons of slander. Plus, the angrier you get, the less open you are to the honest criticism. Perhaps you must vent it from time to time, but it's been a long time since i've been openly angry with anyone. . I won't deny being annoyed at people from time to time. Then I just distance myself for a while if it gets too bad. Perhaps if i had a truly intimate relationship with someone, fighting would be better than running.

The difficulty is balancing the allowing of feelings with not letting them getting the upper hand. If you allow your feelings to run free, then it will become more and more difficult to slow them down as time progresses. People who hit things when angry will find themselves less capable of controlling their anger.

Venting increases aggressive behavior over time.

In my own experience, I'm more likely to incline to the other extreme... Over time, it stopped being much of a selection, and I just numbed down basically all emotions and feelings. It's not that I didn't have them, it's just that they weren't very strong, sometimes almost unnoticable. Over time, obviously this is just as bad as letting your emotions do whatever. How do you prevent that?

 

[Duxwing]

@Minuend

Were you raised Catholic? I was, and I'm beginning to suspect that whatever religious indoctrination that my parents put me through has been lurking in my unconscious mind. As far as I remember, Catholicism teaches that thinking is as bad as doing, and for those who primarily think (INTP's) such dogma causes no end of suffering when otherwise well-controlled impulses enter our conscious minds.

Otherwise, listen to Feynman's "Ode to a Flower" and learn to experience your emotions while simultaneously carrying out your logic. Although such a video seems redundant to my response, I suspect that both you and I are deeply afraid and mistrusting of our feelings due to past trauma both large and small. I, for example, wish for a place in my mind where I could be safe and have my feelings validated-- simple, yes, but that's part of what nine months of staring in the Nothingness gets you.

I also suggest reading Godel's work on logic so that you may understand that no rational philosophy could possibly cover everything with full consistency. Learn to see your emotions as premade axioms, and provided that you don't become psychotic (i.e., subscribe to superstition, literally lose your grip on reality, etc.) you'll feel much better. Also, if existentialism holds, then you even get to keep your standing among other philosophers.

-Duxwing

 

[Architect]

Were you raised Catholic? I was, and I'm beginning to suspect that whatever religious indoctrination that my parents put me through has been lurking in my unconscious mind. As far as I remember, Catholicism teaches that thinking is as bad as doing, and for those who primarily think (INTP's) such dogma causes no end of suffering when otherwise well-controlled impulses enter our conscious minds.

That's exactly right, the biggest pain in my life has been this idea that we can commit thought crime, which came from my catholic upbringing. I've actively worked to deprogram myself.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

the biggest pain in my life has been this idea that we can commit thought crime,

An excellent example of good intentions paving the road to hell. There are some recovery movements where people consider it a relapse if they dream about whatever it is they say they are addicted to.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

There has been times when someone's action or words has left me with a sunken feeling for longer than I would care to admit.

Same here. Someone might tell me something upsetting, and it takes them only half an hour to say it, but it might take me at least the rest of the day to sort it out. I'm trying to learn some of the cognitive therapies to accelerate this process and minimize the misery associated with it. Dialectical behavior therapy seems like a good option.

 

[Hadoblado]

Isn't it one where the conclusion follows from the premises?

The truth preserving nature of validity in an argument is area specific. The more general meaning is meant here (acknowledged/accepted).

I too obsess over the cause and function of feelings, in myself and others. It's almost as if I can't accept the presence of an emotion in myself without understanding:

1) - why I'm feeling that way.
2) - why other parties involved are feeling the way they are.
3) - if the feeling is worth having (I suppress it if I conclude that it is not).
4) - if the involved parties are motivated by feelings that are worth having (grounds for dismissal of negative emotions if I find them not to be).

For example, if I would be offended because someone attacked my ability, but I deemed this to probably be because I just showed them up in some way, then their attribution is likely influenced by an unjustifiable emotion (butthurtedness), and I can feel free to dismiss any negative emotions pertaining to the scenario.

One exception to this process, and I'll mention @The Gopher as he has been witness to it on multiple occasions, is when it is a friend that is having the unjustifiable emotions that are impacting on myself or others. When a friend is acting in an unjustifiable manner, then I am forced to reevaluate our friendship, which upsets me.

I'll also note that when there is a particular re-occurrence of non-mindfulness in people in general, I feel despair for humanity in general, and this can make me rather angry.

 

[skip]

As far as I remember, Catholicism teaches that thinking is as bad as doing, and for those who primarily think (INTP's) such dogma causes no end of suffering when otherwise well-controlled impulses enter our conscious minds.

It sounds like you received some faulty catechism. That is definitely not a teaching of the Church, official or otherwise. No one should participate in a religion unquestioningly - ever. Whether or not they're INTPs is irrelevant.

 

[The Gopher]

I hereby validate the hado in his bladoness.

 

[redbaron]

Man some of you guys are tightly wound. Or maybe you're not wound tightly enough?

I don't know how to explain it concisely, but it's been years since I got upset/insulted by something someone said. Maybe because I've developed my Te a lot, to the point where it's almost as natural as Ti for me, it seems like I've learned to use it to process external information as opposed to only using Ne/Fe.

Not sure if that's possible? In any case I'm saying it is.

So to answer all of your problems is probablt to be an ENTJ. That way even if you aren't good at something, you'll still think you are and feel good about being good at it anyway!

 

[Words]

It's not that I've gone through it all, it's more like... I don't really feel like i've ever gained anything much from fighting. =/ It always feels so ridiculously useless.

Not sure what to say. You either have a negative view on the utility of discourse and the ability of humans to empathize and reason. Or you are experiencing some socio-emotional difficulties that demotivates you into inaction, in which case I would continue to recommend the expression of your concerns. The only way to improve on it is through exercising it.

@Minuend

Were you raised Catholic? I was, and I'm beginning to suspect that whatever religious indoctrination that my parents put me through has been lurking in my unconscious mind. As far as I remember, Catholicism teaches that thinking is as bad as doing, and for those who primarily think (INTP's) such dogma causes no end of suffering when otherwise well-controlled impulses enter our conscious minds.

Minuend's an Fi-Te btw. I say this because Fi types formulate their moral ideas internally. As an Fe type (who also experienced indoctrination) on the other hand, I share the same difficulties of social morality's intruding and enslaving my thoughts.

Man some of you guys are tightly wound. Or maybe you're not wound tightly enough?

I don't know how to explain it concisely, but it's been years since I got upset/insulted by something someone said. Maybe because I've developed my Te a lot, to the point where it's almost as natural as Ti for me, it seems like I've learned to use it to process external information as opposed to only using Ne/Fe.

I think it's simply a type thing, like Minuend being Fi instead of Ti. I share the same general apathy. I wouldn't say I'm "developed", but my problem is not about controlling my emotions because I usually have nothing to control in the first place.

 

[Fukyo]

I don't see my feelings as valid or not valid in the systematic fashion as Minuend describes. I do see some of them as undesirable in a way though, and those would be feelings that cause me distress, are in conflict with a significant agenda or value, or could cause me to act in inappropriate or destructive ways. My way of coping with those is immersion in something I enjoy, shifting the focus which makes me not dwell on it.

In a way I'm able to spontaneously quickly detach without giving it much thought, I'm not sure if it's the depressive apathy or something else, because I was more sensitive when I was younger. Sometimes I catch myself thinking "I should be more affected by this". I often feel like the emotional responses are running in the background, like static noise, with a few exceptions.


Like Moocow said, I'm much more focused on moderating my actions than feelings.

 

[Etheri]

Darn you Fukyo, I was reading! >:

 

[~~~]

Do you validate in a David 8 voice @The Gopher?

David8 on Vimeo

@redbaron - I think Weyland Corp tried that with the previous version. I gather it created universal complaints about the androids not following orders, giving orders, behaving independently, strategizing and evolving. Massive recall.

 

[Minuend]

Wel I would suggest that is the first thing you should do, or it might just be a learned behaviour. Just acknowledge that you are angry. Even just saying it outloud or writing it down may be enough. Or the classic "count to ten." I just want to stress that ignoring fillings isn't a way to "deal" with them.

I do recognize when I'm angry. But I immediately go to my check questions
Why am I angry?
Will anger solve anything?
Is it reasonable to get angry with this?

Well in some cases, even if anger is "justified" I prefer the "high road", the control of anger.

Thats interesting though, I never heard of that study. Might have to rethink and reform a few ideas I had. However, in the study I think it is unfair to have the punching bag people go straight to the next part. It kind of implies that once you get angry you will be venting non-stop. As in, no breaks between your activities in life. I suppose some people may live like that, but I do not know.

It's kinda the point. If you allow your anger to run free, it will continue for longer. However, if you get some minutes to calm down, you do just that.

@Minuend
Were you raised Catholic? I was, and I'm beginning to suspect that whatever religious indoctrination that my parents put me through has been lurking in my unconscious mind. As far as I remember, Catholicism teaches that thinking is as bad as doing, and for those who primarily think (INTP's) such dogma causes no end of suffering when otherwise well-controlled impulses enter our conscious minds.

Well, my parents were Christian. But not very outwardly so. I didn't have the "God is everywhere and sees everything" upbringing. I very relaxed dismissed the idea of deity at the age of 13, 14 or so. When I started thinking on my own. I mean, outside childish games and plays.

But. Feelings weren't really talked about much. There was generally an unhealthy emotional environment, meaning that my dad was more emotional. So instead of discussing things calmly, he would yell a lot. I didn't really feel that I could talk to my parents about my feels.

Otherwise, listen to Feynman's "Ode to a Flower" and learn to experience your emotions while simultaneously carrying out your logic. Although such a video seems redundant to my response, I suspect that both you and I are deeply afraid and mistrusting of our feelings due to past trauma both large and small. I, for example, wish for a place in my mind where I could be safe and have my feelings validated-- simple, yes, but that's part of what nine months of staring in the Nothingness gets you.

Being able to relax and being ok with feelings would probably/ maybe.... different. There would be disadvantages though. Me being currently able to stay out of depression is because of my tendency to having to justify my feelings.

It also means that even after being down, I'm able to pull myself together and start anew. I have quite a lot of self-discipline and have discovered how I can shift my mentality to function without falling into despair.

I also suggest reading Godel's work on logic so that you may understand that no rational philosophy could possibly cover everything with full consistency. Learn to see your emotions as premade axioms, and provided that you don't become psychotic (i.e., subscribe to superstition, literally lose your grip on reality, etc.) you'll feel much better. Also, if existentialism holds, then you even get to keep your standing among other philosophers.

Well, I talk about logic and reason, but my belief in those is fragile. Reading up on psychology and general human science, such creatures seems very prone to fall out of reason quickly enough. Nevertheless, it's no reason for not trying.

Man some of you guys are tightly wound. Or maybe you're not wound tightly enough?

It might seem that way, but I'm not so sure. I don't mean that I'm upset by everything people say to me. I'm a generally laidback person. In fact, the other day I was told that I "wasn't exact one of the prettiest girls around". Which didn't and doesn't bother me at all, even though I thought it would!

Though, my self-esteem is somewhat in the negative. But I guess I think I kinda need to so I don't become too certain of my ideas and thoughts. There must always be room for doubt. I might be wrong in everything. Not being sure of anything is a fundamental trait of my personality. Both because I function that way and because I want to. (Of course, the self-esteem issue needn't be a part of the "always doubting thing".)

Not sure what to say. You either have a negative view on the utility of discourse and the ability of humans to empathize and reason. Or you are experiencing some socio-emotional difficulties that demotivates you into inaction, in which case I would continue to recommend the expression of your concerns. The only way to improve on it is through exercising it.

If someone keeps offending me, it's not unliukely that I will remain unaffected. I will just decide to cut that person out of my life. I think I talked about this earlier.

I actually have this kid at work who is testing my boundaries to see when I'll get pissed. I confronted him about it today, asked if he were in fact testing my boundaries which he admitted to. The only consequence of this is that I will at some point decided that it's not reasonable to put up with it. I wont get mad, I'll just not talk with him more than necessary. He'll never be able to become a friend.

Minuend's an Fi-Te btw. I say this because Fi types formulate their moral ideas internally. As an Fe type (who also experienced indoctrination) on the other hand, I share the same difficulties of social morality's intruding and enslaving my thoughts.

I've accepted that our thoughts are not independent. Any philosophy we have are based on our interaction and understanding of the other man. If we grew up isolated from all else, such things would be completely different, perhaps non-existent. We can only base our understanding on what we know. Generally I don't feel much influence from the day-to-day thoughts of people. Of course there is some, but I don't tend to feel anything when confronted with a controversial idea. I don't "feel" enslaved by social morality.

Like Moocow said, I'm much more focused on moderating my actions than feelings.

If your feelings are moderated, then your actions will be automatically so.

Though, I'm usually able to control my outer appearance. So, yeah

Tipsy, proof read meh

 

[BigApplePi]

So what is a "valid feeling"?

How about, "They ALL are valid no matter what." Try this: One can't feel and think at the same time. The purpose of feelings* is to prepare for some kind of action. Our unconscious does this. So if one is busy thinking (which a lot of us do), feelings can pop up at any time, throwing us for a loop. We have to stop what we were doing to handle the feeling. That can be an annoyance.

Feeling types, on the other hand don't mind this. In fact their consciousness must be occupied with feelings up front. So they are much better prepared for handling them.

*The purpose of thinking is to set up some kind of order.

 

[finalTruthSage]

Here is a good framework to deal with emotions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulrie1700Zg

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I don't think valid / invalid is a healthy way to look at it, at least for your self-esteem. Your feelings are natural, as reactions to events; the justification is you being a person capable of having your personal attitude towards things.

What's appropriate or respectful is, in my opinion, a more constructive perspective. But you still always have that fundamental self-justified freedom to have and express your attitude.


*Although, I understand people don't change so simply, when it comes to an issue such as this. Whatever works, and doesn't infringe on others.

 

[Words]

I actually have this kid at work who is testing my boundaries to see when I'll get pissed. I confronted him about it today, asked if he were in fact testing my boundaries which he admitted to. The only consequence of this is that I will at some point decided that it's not reasonable to put up with it. I wont get mad, I'll just not talk with him more than necessary. He'll never be able to become a friend.

Have you ever tried expressing your anger? I mean, of course you were annoyed yes? How often? I think that the more you express your emotions, the more you'll be comfortable with it, and the lesser the stress that it'll give you. Like many have said, you don't have to act on it, you just have to let it get out of its cage. You don't have to attack the child, you just have to say "Fuck you kid!" Yeah, cursing is usually good for that, I think.

I think I've experienced something similar once. A child was annoying me. I didn't burst in anger, only annoyance through facial disgust. There's this premium placed on being "mature" and "beyond children", and I think that played a factor in my inaction. If you have the same issue, then I suggest you stop caring about that. If you can by will alone, that is.

 

[Fghw]

I have tried to no avail to become the master of emotion. Emotion is the seed from which all thought grows.

 

[INeedToPee]

i think needing to validate feelings comes with being an INTP (not that its exclusive to us).
Ti+Ne shows us all the logical outcomes of acting out on feelings, and we act accordingly. for me, i don't act out on my anger (or even show my anger, for that matter) unless it really interferes with my goals. i suppose that's my breaking point, where all the pent-up fury comes out

this might be true for other feelings, i don't know. i just realized that i only spoke about anger, and that might be because i am most in tune with my emotions when i am angry.