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Useless interests

Analyzer

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Most of my interests are what you could say "useless"; they don't provide much value to society or the market. What are they? History(ancient/modern), classics, languages, political philosophy, educational theory, ect... Perhaps I'm an intellectual hedonist, but it's enjoyable.

Seems like society is more interested and rewards those who have learned useful knowledge, technical or scientific compared to useless ones. Anyone else out of step like this?
 

Haim

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They can think it is useless, I don't care, does it matter?is it really worthless?
 

Analyzer

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They can think it is useless, I don't care, does it matter?is it really worthless?

I think certain knowledge is useless but not fully worthless. Maybe there's an indirect value that useless knowledge has on society which cant really be measured by gdp, employment, or other economic indicators. Universities used to be based off this understanding until they basically all became training centers.
 

Sinny91

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Most of my interests are what you could say "useless"; they don't provide much value to society or the market. What are they? History(ancient/modern), classics, languages, political philosophy, educational theory, ect... Perhaps I'm an intellectual hedonist, but it's enjoyable.

Seems like society is more interested and rewards those who have learned useful knowledge, technical or scientific compared to useless ones. Anyone else out of step like this?

What you talking about, all those things are useful to society.
You are obviously just not applying yourself :p
 

Sinny91

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Well assuming that your are not over looking or devaluing your own contributions to society.. You just said that your knowledge base has little value to society; I disagree, those fields of knowledge are extremely valuable to society - so in your equation, it must be the human aspect, namely you - who is not conveying the value.
 

Analyzer

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Well assuming that your are not over looking or devaluing your own contributions to society.. You just said that your knowledge base has little value to society; I disagree, those fields of knowledge are extremely valuable to society - so in your equation, it must be the human aspect, namely you - who is not conveying the value.

Yeah but it's a lot easier and more effective to convey value through knowledge which can be applied(technical) vs knowledge which has to be experienced by individuals. I guess that was my point.
 

Sinny91

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And language has to be 'experienced' prior to it's 'application'?

My point is, you can apply your knowledge base in Te fashion.
Education for one.
Selling a book for another.

Your knowledge is based in academia - not stone masonry. If you want to apply your knowledge there's two avenue's; discover something new (and share it), or share your existing knowledge with those who need (are lacking) it.

I can't think of anything more useful than teaching the next generation things like language, political theory, philosophy etc.
 

Haim

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I think certain knowledge is useless but not fully worthless. Maybe there's an indirect value that useless knowledge has on society which cant really be measured by gdp, employment, or other economic indicators. Universities used to be based off this understanding until they basically all became training centers.
Only trivial knowledge, the rest can have indirect or direct use, by that I include self brain development and the actual enjoyment of learning.
 

bvanevery

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Analyzer, I don't accept your basic classifications. However if you choose to be useless, I'm sure you will be! This begs a question as to your theory of utility, or anyone else's. I think your theory of utility is probably partly wrong, whatever it is, as I don't think you could formulate such weird classifications with a right one.
 

Analyzer

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Analyzer, I don't accept your basic classifications. However if you choose to be useless, I'm sure you will be! This begs a question as to your theory of utility, or anyone else's. I think your theory of utility is probably partly wrong, whatever it is, as I don't think you could formulate such weird classifications with a right one.

Utilitarianism?
 

Analyzer

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Throwing out a word / label / term doesn't say anything by itself. You'd need to say what that word means to you.

Pragmatic orientation, that which works or benefits others(like being a programmer to serve business/technology) and can usually be measured. Compared to something like learning 10th century love making.
 

bvanevery

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Pragmatic orientation, that which works or benefits others(like being a programmer to serve business/technology) and can usually be measured. Compared to something like learning 10th century love making.

Do you think it's important to have a boss, so that your labor can be used and counted for something? My response to that is, bosses mismanage labor all the time. You can do all sorts of work for a boss that has no value, because the boss is making stupid decisions, or the corporate matrix into which he/she is inserted is stupid. So, although a lot of people think being employed and having someone to command them provides utility to society, it ain't necessarily so. In fact I would say that corporate entities often amount to gross inefficiency in various affairs. So if there is any utility of harnessing other people's labor in a command structure, there's some diminishing percent function of its efficiency.

Let's say you throw all that out and work for yourself. Now, how much does "in service to X" matter or not? Strictly speaking, you need only secure food and shelter, the means to survive. You could secure those directly, or indirectly in terms of money. To gain money, all you have to do, is engage in any activity that causes other people to give you money. For instance, you could be extremely charming at describing 10th century lovemaking. If anyone pays you for your descriptions, then you eat.

People seem to inherently value economic exchange between humans as another one of these sacred measures of what constitutes a "good" person. What if you don't care to exchange with anybody? Ok, throw all that out. You've got a hut somewhere and you grow some crops and animals. You eat. Long as no disasters happen, you're fine.

How will you spend your copious free time now?
 

Analyzer

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Do you think it's important to have a boss, so that your labor can be used and counted for something? My response to that is, bosses mismanage labor all the time. You can do all sorts of work for a boss that has no value, because the boss is making stupid decisions, or the corporate matrix into which he/she is inserted is stupid. So, although a lot of people think being employed and having someone to command them provides utility to society, it ain't necessarily so. In fact I would say that corporate entities often amount to gross inefficiency in various affairs. So if there is any utility of harnessing other people's labor in a command structure, there's some diminishing percent function of its efficiency.

Let's say you throw all that out and work for yourself. Now, how much does "in service to X" matter or not? Strictly speaking, you need only secure food and shelter, the means to survive. You could secure those directly, or indirectly in terms of money. To gain money, all you have to do, is engage in any activity that causes other people to give you money. For instance, you could be extremely charming at describing 10th century lovemaking. If anyone pays you for your descriptions, then you eat.

Yeah, so basically your saying it doesn't really matter, utility is relative. And even people who think they are providing utility like in a corporate structure, aren't even really.

People seem to inherently value economic exchange between humans as another one of these sacred measures of what constitutes a "good" person. What if you don't care to exchange with anybody? Ok, throw all that out. You've got a hut somewhere and you grow some crops and animals. You eat. Long as no disasters happen, you're fine.

How will you spend your copious free time now?

The ideology is economism. Cherish the division of labor, reduce all action to economic exchanges and products of scarcity. The dude on the hut is seen as "useless" by those who follow that ideological mode. I'm not saying I believe in it but its the prevailing thought among the masses. Which was my point of describing how certain interests are deemed useless by those who follow that line of thinking.

Carry on then.
 

Brontosaurie

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I like to draw a long looping swirling line

There is no sense in paying for such a thing
 

bvanevery

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Yeah, so basically your saying it doesn't really matter, utility is relative. And even people who think they are providing utility like in a corporate structure, aren't even really.

Well it may matter. For instance if a lot of people value the cumulation and sharing of knowledge, then society is going to need infrastructure for that. There need to be libraries, computers, internets, fiber optic cables buried under ground, power stations, extraction industries to fabricate raw materials for whatever is needed to make electricity, etc. Quite a bit of tangible stuff to keep the intangibles of human collective memory humming along.

But the specific guy climbing up the telephone pole may jolly well be wasting his time, because his boss is a Dilbert and doesn't organize these things well.

If there's a perfectly efficient way of doing thing X, then a "Productivity" function might be some % not accomplished due to risks in the universe. Like the risk of not knowing what you're doing, or for telephone poles to blow down. I'm saying people's actual productive output is highly variable and doesn't match their narratives of being good diligent societally fulfilling worker bees.

When you run your own homestead, you take all those risks yourself. You find out what you can live with and what you cannot. For instance, I live out of my car with my dog. This lifestyle requires that I keep my car running. Consequently I am an amateur auto mechanic.

Another interesting problem with "utility" is you can't stop people from adulating some "rock star" by giving them tons of money. Any kind of entertainer who's sufficiently entertaining can make a mint. That's the problem with conceiving the world in terms of dull ideas and duties: people actually need to be entertained. They will pay for it. They will pay excessively for it, in a societal organizing sense.

Like the 1 guy who started Minecraft by working on some crap Java code for 1 year. It became a phenom. When he sold the company to Microsoft several years later, it was worth $2.5 billion. And personally I think this guy's game sucks. It's not even a game, it's more of a sandbox with blocks. But a lot of people found themselves very entertained by this sandbox with blocks.

I don't think he contributed much to humanity and will never duplicate that level of success again. I don't think he has any real chops as a game designer. Even worse, having gotten so much money, he seems to have no public idea of how to use it to better anything about the human condition. So far his phenomenon of economic success looks like a complete waste of time, a glorification of the Capitalist system and its distribution networks. He has been granted excess; he doesn't seem to know what to do with it.

If he did have real chops as a game designer, there would still be the question of excess, vs. bettering humanity.
 

bvanevery

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Well, much as I don't like it, people pay enormous sums for frivolous artwork. By 'frivolous' I mean I could reproduce the production values of this work in about 3 hours, if I used a white stretched tarp and a can of red house paint. With that much money involved I guess the work cannot be said to be pointless. Its point, however, would seem to be conspicuous consumption, or museumification, or the institutionalization of Art for its own sake, or class warfare. It's definitely not about the aesthetic concerns of most working artists. Cy Twombly becomes a dead "rock star", people adulate his artifacts. Maybe the point is a lot of human beings need to be superstitious idiots, that there's some special property to this work because he did it. Reproducing this kind of work would be trivial, very unskilled people could easily do it.
 

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Like the 1 guy who started Minecraft by working on some crap Java code for 1 year. It became a phenom. When he sold the company to Microsoft several years later, it was worth $2.5 billion. And personally I think this guy's game sucks. It's not even a game, it's more of a sandbox with blocks. But a lot of people found themselves very entertained by this sandbox with blocks.

I don't think he contributed much to humanity and will never duplicate that level of success again. I don't think he has any real chops as a game designer. Even worse, having gotten so much money, he seems to have no public idea of how to use it to better anything about the human condition. So far his phenomenon of economic success looks like a complete waste of time, a glorification of the Capitalist system and its distribution networks. He has been granted excess; he doesn't seem to know what to do with it.

If he did have real chops as a game designer, there would still be the question of excess, vs. bettering humanity.
I think his work has tremendous value. Whether or not anyone thinks Minecraft is good is irrelevant when you consider the cultural impact it's had and will continue to have. Yeah, it's a sandbox and barely a game, but it's an impressively complex sandbox that has unveiled a niche market for such a product. It's brought procedurally generated games into the spotlight, and has unlocked the potential of such games in the future. For instance, games like No Man's Sky and Wyld, which are pushing the limits of procedural generation could be considered products of the pioneering work set down by Mojang.

I don't think it's reasonable to criticise him as a sub-par game developer when he made something that has such tremendous impact.

Well, much as I don't like it, people pay enormous sums for frivolous artwork. By 'frivolous' I mean I could reproduce the production values of this work in about 3 hours, if I used a white stretched tarp and a can of red house paint. With that much money involved I guess the work cannot be said to be pointless. Its point, however, would seem to be conspicuous consumption, or museumification, or the institutionalization of Art for its own sake, or class warfare. It's definitely not about the aesthetic concerns of most working artists. Cy Twombly becomes a dead "rock star", people adulate his artifacts. Maybe the point is a lot of human beings need to be superstitious idiots, that there's some special property to this work because he did it. Reproducing this kind of work would be trivial, very unskilled people could easily do it.
Are you opposed to the notion of art? Or are you opposed to the consumerist shift in the art world? Or something else entirely. I'm not trying to drag you into a debate or anything. This is an important dialogue to me (I wrote a thesis on museology) and my thoughts on the matter are constantly changing. I'd like to hear your perspective.
 

bvanevery

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I think his work has tremendous value. Whether or not anyone thinks Minecraft is good is irrelevant when you consider the cultural impact it's had and will continue to have. Yeah, it's a sandbox and barely a game, but it's an impressively complex sandbox that has unveiled a niche market for such a product. It's brought procedurally generated games into the spotlight, and has unlocked the potential of such games in the future. For instance, games like No Man's Sky and Wyld, which are pushing the limits of procedural generation could be considered products of the pioneering work set down by Mojang.

Thanks for reminding me of No Man's Sky and Wyld, which I haven't checked out, to see if they bring something new to the table.

Since my technical background is 3d graphics, i.e. making 3d engines, of which a voxel engine is just one possibility, I don't see Notch as a pioneer. I see him as a guy with rudimentary 3D chops, who did a half-assed engine in Java, in an era when computers got powerful enough that one could get away with that. His only real innovation was to make a game that was very, very ugly, that eschewed the dominant trends of 3d graphics production values. I will give him credit for that. But his fame and glory mostly comes from a technical confluence of what computers finally could do, coupled with the rise of YouTube and social media. He outsourced all kinds of things to his early gaming audience, like any explanation of why you'd even play the damn thing, or how. Just watch someone else's damn YouTube video of how much 'fun' they're having! Completely lost on me because I'm not YouTube oriented, and I've played far better builder games in the past than he produced. But lots of young-uns hadn't, and they needed to have their "first experience" with something. It became Minecraft, and Notch got very, very lucky.

This kind of luck, of new audience and new technology cycle, does repeat every several years. People who have been around long enough to see it happen a few times, definitely have a shot at "surfing the wave" of whatever the next big thing is going to be, if they are so inclined. But I'm not inclined to Minecraft, at all. I wouldn't have written that game even if I had foreknowledge of how much money it would be worth.

I don't think it's reasonable to criticise him as a sub-par game developer when he made something that has such tremendous impact.

I do. Most of the good game designers have multiple good games to their credit. His 'game' isn't even good as a game, it's popular for being a block modeling program. If he has anything to offer in game design, let him write another game that actually sells ok, that isn't Minecraft milked.

Are you opposed to the notion of art? Or are you opposed to the consumerist shift in the art world? Or something else entirely. I'm not trying to drag you into a debate or anything. This is an important dialogue to me (I wrote a thesis on museology) and my thoughts on the matter are constantly changing. I'd like to hear your perspective.

Perhaps another thread, say in the Visual Art forum. It could use the attention.
 

bvanevery

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If u don't have anything to die for, then die already

That proposition makes no sense. Someone who doesn't have anything to die for, will not sacrifice himself. He'll keep on living. Why do you want that person to die?
 

Sinny91

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That was fun.
 

Haim

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Like the 1 guy who started Minecraft by working on some crap Java code for 1 year. It became a phenom. When he sold the company to Microsoft several years later, it was worth $2.5 billion. And personally I think this guy's game sucks. It's not even a game, it's more of a sandbox with blocks. But a lot of people found themselves very entertained by this sandbox with blocks.

I don't think he contributed much to humanity and will never duplicate that level of success again. I don't think he has any real chops as a game designer. Even worse, having gotten so much money, he seems to have no public idea of how to use it to better anything about the human condition. So far his phenomenon of economic success looks like a complete waste of time, a glorification of the Capitalist system and its distribution networks. He has been granted excess; he doesn't seem to know what to do with it.

If he did have real chops as a game designer, there would still be the question of excess, vs. bettering humanity.
You have no idea what's making a good game nor good art.
Designer role comes way more backwards than the game itself but also how you make it.Minecraft is so succsfull because of that,the way he made minecraft was original, making a truly evolving game,taking feedback and early on doing it.Other than what makes minecraft outstanding is the regular reasons for a game to be good, the same for any art, having a good personality, the technical complexity does not matter for that, poly number does not determine arts value, it is not really ugly it is fitted for minecraft world.
I would agree that a one person have that much money does not make sense,but he can do whatever he wants with his not your money and I think he does better than temporary money that goes to people instend of research,he spend money on the game industry, kickstartets,which is important to society has it create other market,a more direct one+the value of the games them self.
I do not care if one person banged his head on the wall for 50 years, if other person can break the wall in one seconds he is a lot more valuble to me.
Realty is not based on your mind!!!

Minecraft is the game with the most widespread reach I know,from casual kids to hardcore adults.
 

Brontosaurie

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You have no idea what's making a good game nor good art.
Designer role comes way more backwards than the game itself but also how you make it.Minecraft is so succsfull because of that,the way he made minecraft was original, making a truly evolving game,taking feedback and early on doing it.Other than what makes minecraft outstanding is the regular reasons for a game to be good, the same for any art, having a good personality, the technical complexity does not matter for that, poly number does not determine arts value, it is not really ugly it is fitted for minecraft world.
I would agree that a one person have that much money does not make sense,but he can do whatever he wants with his not your money and I think he does better than temporary money that goes to people instend of research,he spend money on the game industry, kickstartets,which is important to society has it create other market,a more direct one+the value of the games them self.
I do not care if one person banged his head on the wall for 50 years, if other person can break the wall in one seconds he is a lot more valuble to me.
Realty is not based on your mind!!!

Minecraft is the game with the most widespread reach I know,from casual kids to hardcore adults.

Notch is not an innovator. Do basic research before passing judgment.

http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Infiniminer

And yes, primitive graphics is indeed part of Minecraft's phoney old-school, DIY appeal.
 

Haim

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This is fully known to me.
I didn't said he was innvote for the actual game(which he
is but not to minecraft scale,there are things like monsters at night,the world itslf) but on the development way, the way which he built the game together with the players.
 

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Thanks for reminding me of No Man's Sky and Wyld, which I haven't checked out, to see if they bring something new to the table.

Since my technical background is 3d graphics, i.e. making 3d engines, of which a voxel engine is just one possibility, I don't see Notch as a pioneer. I see him as a guy with rudimentary 3D chops, who did a half-assed engine in Java, in an era when computers got powerful enough that one could get away with that. His only real innovation was to make a game that was very, very ugly, that eschewed the dominant trends of 3d graphics production values. I will give him credit for that. But his fame and glory mostly comes from a technical confluence of what computers finally could do, coupled with the rise of YouTube and social media. He outsourced all kinds of things to his early gaming audience, like any explanation of why you'd even play the damn thing, or how. Just watch someone else's damn YouTube video of how much 'fun' they're having! Completely lost on me because I'm not YouTube oriented, and I've played far better builder games in the past than he produced. But lots of young-uns hadn't, and they needed to have their "first experience" with something. It became Minecraft, and Notch got very, very lucky.

This kind of luck, of new audience and new technology cycle, does repeat every several years. People who have been around long enough to see it happen a few times, definitely have a shot at "surfing the wave" of whatever the next big thing is going to be, if they are so inclined. But I'm not inclined to Minecraft, at all. I wouldn't have written that game even if I had foreknowledge of how much money it would be worth.



I do. Most of the good game designers have multiple good games to their credit. His 'game' isn't even good as a game, it's popular for being a block modeling program. If he has anything to offer in game design, let him write another game that actually sells ok, that isn't Minecraft milked.



Perhaps another thread, say in the Visual Art forum. It could use the attention.

I agree that Minecraft is technically (as in, in a technical sense) a rubbish game, but that is not where its merit lies, in my opinion anyway. Anyway, I understand your position.

As far as an art discussion, I'll make that thread now.
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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Minecraft is a Lego software which is far more enjoyable than any builder software that Lego themselves have made.

And that's not a mark against it, imo. I fucking love Legos.
 

TheManBeyond

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That proposition makes no sense. Someone who doesn't have anything to die for, will not sacrifice himself. He'll keep on living. Why do you want that person to die?

because where's all the passion? like elixir of life?, the colorful seafoam spreadin rainbows out of ur nose.
i mean, if u don't have a goal to die for then what's the point in keepon living?, are u trying to leave a mark in this world? at least u should be concerned about that. It's not about you but about the generations to come who will remember your name.
the bigger the better bro.
 

bvanevery

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i mean, if u don't have a goal to die for then what's the point in keepon living?,

Rationally, I would expect they either have a goal to live for, or making goals isn't very important to them and being alive is enough. Which would seem to say, the goal is to be alive.

It's not about you but about the generations to come who will remember your name.

One thing I've realized, is our ancient ancestors had a lot less competition for their marketing campaigns. Get a mathematician like Aristotle, everyone will remember whatever he said. "Cuz he wrote, and not a lot of people did. Not a lot of people had the material resources to exist as he did, at the time. Nowadays, how many mathematicians do we have in universities all over the planet?

This problem is going to get worse. It becomes harder and harder to stand out, as more and more people are born and do kewl things.
 

PaulMaster

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I follow the NFL every season.

Personally, I dont believe anything I do is completely useless. I avoid uselessness.

However, I'm well aware that this interest is almost exclusively entertainment. Although, the drive and outlook from people who reach the pinnacle of anything - especially the more difficult the endeavor - is something I try to learn from.
 
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