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Um Hello

Starcrossed

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Hello,

Recently discovered that I am an INTJ... I decided to do some research because I was sick and tired of my employer telling me that I need to be more likable, that I am oblivious to how angry people get with me, how I probably have no appreciation of how many times I have narrowly escaped getting my face smashed in by ticked off customers... What I was just trying to help

So I guess I'm hoping to get some further understanding here and get a better (more in depth) understanding on other personality types.
 

crippli

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Hi
Are you sure you are not hallucinating?
 

Ex-User (9062)

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ec219a0bced70b80f61b0538f178234f372abbe6a1baa2a0089faf1462ac9c75.jpg
 

Starcrossed

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I think that's what bothers most people I'll look you in the eye the entire time I'm talking to you. If there is one thing I can be credited for I can tell when someone is lying and I think that puts people off.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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I decided to do some research because I was sick and tired of my employer telling me that I need to be more likable, that I am oblivious to how angry people get with me, how I probably have no appreciation of how many times I have narrowly escaped getting my face smashed in by ticked off customers...

Can you go into detail a bit more?
I have trouble imagining the scenarios.
 

Starcrossed

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Can you go into detail a bit more?
I have trouble imagining the scenarios.

Sure... one scenario, a patient walked in to our store (I work in a vision center) she said that she couldn't see out of her no line bifocal, I asked her if she could describe her trouble (so I could get a better understanding: ie was it an issue with the lens or if I needed to adjust the frame so the glasses would sit better on her face) she just kept repeating herself saying that we were making her miserable by making her vision blurry (ok but how) on top of this she was refusing to let me see her glasses. I tried to narrow the issue down to: ok when you're reading do you need to tilt your head too far back or too far forward to get the best clarity. (this would tell me if the glasses were sitting too high or too low). The lady didn't understand my intention on asking the question so I tried to explain and she blew up yelling at how I was rude and refusing to fix the issue! To make matters worse she called corporate!

How in the world am I supposed to fix your glasses lady if you won't work with me?! You asked me for help, if you know better then me then why don't you fix it and take your issues out of here so the rest of us can have a good day?

Next scenario, I was teaching a kid how to put his contacts in, this kid seemed sweet (frustrated but determined to get the contacts in), I was coaching him on how to get the contacts in. Long story short he successfully got his trial lenses in and out (and back in) and thanked me for my patience and support. The kid went to his mum and complained that I was rude and disrespectful and they called corporate on me.

Every other scenario deals with already aggravated customers that come in yelling at me, they get even more frustrated when I don't get mad back, they say that I don't care about their problem (because I'm not acting all emotional). Its not that I don't care its that you have been screaming at me for the past 15 minutes over an issue that I could have resolved in 2, this issues has been blown way out of proportion.

they think I am rude but I'm not saying what I would like to say: you didn't read your receipt, you saw that they were done on July 22nd, you came in October something and you are mad that it took so long, shut up, take your glasses and go! I wonder how that would go over :D

I honestly don't get it!!
 

Ex-User (9062)

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Hmm, from what you described, i can't see any rudeness whatsoever.
Maybe you could learn something about deescalation techniques.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_resolution

Sometimes you need to communicate on a very caveman-like level in order to keep them happy and comfortable. Sad, but true.
 

EditorOne

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None of the INTP/INTJ in here are going to see much of a problem with the words or situation. How's YOUR body language? I know I convey diffidence and ennui, which sometimes pisses people off. If you're a J, are you showing in your face and stance what you know better than to say out loud?

It's not easy being an INTX. Generally it's good to get used to being misunderstood.

On the other hand, keep remembering you're not broken. A lot of folks are going to try to make you more like them because they lack the context for understanding you the way you are, BUT there is nothing wrong with the way you are.

Sometimes we need to hear that.
 

TheScornedReflex

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Or, you really are a soulless prick. :eek:
 

Cavalli

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Customer service is just shit. That's that. There really was nothing more you could have done.

& Hello!
 

Starcrossed

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Hmm, from what you described, i can't see any rudeness whatsoever.
Maybe you could learn something about deescalation techniques.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_resolution

Sometimes you need to communicate on a very caveman-like level in order to keep them happy and comfortable. Sad, but true.

1. avaidance: the problem with that is it makes me look like I don't care and I am blowing you off

2. Yielding conflit style: this always gets me in trouble (but its the way we're required to handle customers), if I'm too agreeable I must be being a smart @ss and that always generates a customer complaint: ie

customer: incoherent yelling about contacts

me: I am sorry that the contacts were on back order, and I do apologize for the inconvience

customer: you're sorry? YOU'RE SORRY?!

me: yes, I do know how big of an inconvience this is for you. For that inconvience please allow me to give you a pair of trial contacts to carry you till your boxes come in.

customer: you don't know how big of an inconvience this is for me, don't play like you understand, you will never understand how angry I am, you just work here... (insert long tirade here)

me: you're absoutely right I have absoutley no comprehension of your anger.

customer: *blows up and reaches over counter for my juglar*

3. competitive conflit: I don't line "win/lose" arguements so I tend to try to avoid these... this is child's play and I gave this up years ago

4. cooperation conflict: I try this and I can never get past the customer trying to shut me down.

5. conciliation conflit style: *see my response to cooperation conflict
 

Starcrossed

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None of the INTP/INTJ in here are going to see much of a problem with the words or situation. How's YOUR body language? I know I convey diffidence and ennui, which sometimes pisses people off. If you're a J, are you showing in your face and stance what you know better than to say out loud?

It's not easy being an INTX. Generally it's good to get used to being misunderstood.

On the other hand, keep remembering you're not broken. A lot of folks are going to try to make you more like them because they lack the context for understanding you the way you are, BUT there is nothing wrong with the way you are.

Sometimes we need to hear that.

Everyone (including family) says I come across as arrogant and condescending... this is never my intent (less I'm trying to be satirical then no one ever takes offense). Everyone complains about my tone of voice (according to them monotone and/or sarcastic sounding)... It's my voice, I am not trying to be mean and in no way do I think down on who I'm talking to (I'm taking the time to talk to you so obviously I don't think you're a waste of my time or you're less then me)... what is funny is when I'm being sarcastic and (my version of) condescending everyone thinks I'm being an @ss.

I'm beyond confused! I don't get it!
 

Ex-User (9062)

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1. avaidance: the problem with that is it makes me look like I don't care and I am blowing you off

2. Yielding conflit style: this always gets me in trouble (but its the way we're required to handle customers), if I'm too agreeable I must be being a smart @ss and that always generates a customer complaint: ie

customer: incoherent yelling about contacts

me: I am sorry that the contacts were on back order, and I do apologize for the inconvience

customer: you're sorry? YOU'RE SORRY?!

me: yes, I do know how big of an inconvience this is for you. For that inconvience please allow me to give you a pair of trial contacts to carry you till your boxes come in.

customer: you don't know how big of an inconvience this is for me, don't play like you understand, you will never understand how angry I am, you just work here... (insert long tirade here)

me: you're absoutely right I have absoutley no comprehension of your anger.

customer: *blows up and reaches over counter for my juglar*

3. competitive conflit: I don't line "win/lose" arguements so I tend to try to avoid these... this is child's play and I gave this up years ago

4. cooperation conflict: I try this and I can never get past the customer trying to shut me down.

5. conciliation conflit style: *see my response to cooperation conflict

Maybe you could ask your employer about you taking training.
Something like this, i have in mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrqfxEkE1n0
 

Starcrossed

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Maybe you could ask your employer about you taking training.
Something like this, i have in mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrqfxEkE1n0

Thanks for the video, I will have to wait for my off day to give that a serious watch...

I know at the ATT call center they had an extensive "how to handle combative customer's" program... I learned a lot from that, unfortunately though that works best on the phone as the person on the other end doesn't realize I've muted my headset and pulled out my ear piece until you quit yelling (yes I could hear your endless tirade muffled, but I didn't hear what you were saying)... doing that helped me to keep my job on more than one occasion.

Unfortunately you cannot mute people who are yelling in your face.

We always thought too that working in stores would be better because people would act more civilized in public... no that is not the case... they act just as bad if not worse. I would be embarrassed if I acted like these people in public.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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Thanks for the video, I will have to wait for my off day to give that a serious watch...

I know at the ATT call center they had an extensive "how to handle combative customer's" program... I learned a lot from that, unfortunately though that works best on the phone as the person on the other end doesn't realize I've muted my headset and pulled out my ear piece until you quit yelling (yes I could hear your endless tirade muffled, but I didn't hear what you were saying)... doing that helped me to keep my job on more than one occasion.

Unfortunately you cannot mute people who are yelling in your face.

We always thought too that working in stores would be better because people would act more civilized in public... no that is not the case... they act just as bad if not worse. I would be embarrassed if I acted like these people in public.

Yes, i think a little bit of training will enable you to handle the situations more comfortably and lift your mind from the fear of having to face "combative customers".

I have no experience with customers myself,
so this is all the advice i could give to you.

The barbarization of interpersonal dealings is a broader problem.
Decency has been individualized.
 

PmjPmj

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I work closely with an INTJ, and he has been accused of arrogance more times than I care to remember. Here's the thing, though - he isn't. At all; people simply don't know how to take him.

Meh, maybe it's as much an Ni-dom thing as it is an NT thing. I too get accused of being a condescending prick, and I'm one of those 'savior of humanity' INFJ types. Pah.

Don't worry yourself about it. The world is full of people with small, inconsequential problems which their narrow minds inflate beyond all reasonable proportion.
 

Kuu

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If I were you, I'd put a camera somewhere that records you and your interactions with the customers, and then you can show your higher ups how they were being dicks to you... and also ask people to see it and what they think about how you acted, what you did wrong.

Also, saying "you're sorry" / "you understand their problem/feelings" to someone who is pissed usually doesn't work, in my experience: it can easily be interpreted as insincere, standard answer to shut them up (and it most likely is). You might as well be saying "Yeah, yeah whatever".

Try "how can I fix this for you?" (this gives them what they want, problem fixed... they don't care if you are sorry, they want their shit fixed. You are irrelevant). Also, saying you're sorry isn't really yielding.

Or perhaps you could try being direct "I can't help you unless you hand me the X / stop yelling at me / blah".

Also, looking at people straight in the eyes constantly can be interpreted as challenging or aggressive (more so if they were already feeling upset); some people in particular can have a very intense gaze that can combine with a matter of fact voice that makes people feel like they're being talked down to. Try to look at some paper, their hands, your hands, the glasses, etc.. as you speak, and their eyes only sporadically.
 

Starcrossed

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Yes, i think a little bit of training will enable you to handle the situations more comfortably and lift your mind from the fear of having to face "combative customers".

I have no experience with customers myself,
so this is all the advice i could give to you.

The barbarization of interpersonal dealings is a broader problem.
Decency has been individualized.

I haven't thought of it before, but I think you're right... as much as I enjoy the challenge of resolving seemingly impossible issues I dread dealing with the combative ones.

I greatly appreciate your help:)
 

Starcrossed

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If I were you, I'd put a camera somewhere that records you and your interactions with the customers, and then you can show your higher ups how they were being dicks to you... and also ask people to see it and what they think about how you acted, what you did wrong.

Also, saying "you're sorry" / "you understand their problem/feelings" to someone who is pissed usually doesn't work, in my experience: it can easily be interpreted as insincere, standard answer to shut them up (and it most likely is). You might as well be saying "Yeah, yeah whatever".

Try "how can I fix this for you?" (this gives them what they want, problem fixed... they don't care if you are sorry, they want their shit fixed. You are irrelevant). Also, saying you're sorry isn't really yielding.

Or perhaps you could try being direct "I can't help you unless you hand me the X / stop yelling at me / blah".

Also, looking at people straight in the eyes constantly can be interpreted as challenging or aggressive (more so if they were already feeling upset); some people in particular can have a very intense gaze that can combine with a matter of fact voice that makes people feel like they're being talked down to. Try to look at some paper, their hands, your hands, the glasses, etc.. as you speak, and their eyes only sporadically.

Not sure I can use the camera what with company policies and hippa laws... I've talked to my boss about it before.

Thanks for the feed back...

I've tried the "how can I fix this for you" and I get mixed results... my absolute favorite is: well you tell me I brought my issue to you.

I hate just telling them "well here's what we need to do" while it works in most cases people just don't get it, they get confused and then they get mad because they are confused (my best guess is they are confused because they aren't paying attention... why can they not just trust that I will handle the issue and be back momentarily making everything all better instead of trying to understand the exact process behind that which will make everything all better?).

I will have to try not looking people directly in the eyes... It just seems so... well... disrespectful, I was always taught as a kid to look people in the eyes as I'm talking (one could say I had it drilled in to me) and when I'm not it is a terrible sign of dishonesty and shows a lack of integrity.

I just never thought these little things could cause such big over the top issues... seems so... crazy (for lack of a better term).
 
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Recently discovered that I am an INTJ...
You have my sympathies. :p
I hate just telling them "well here's what we need to do" while it works in most cases people just don't get it, they get confused and then they get mad because they are confused (my best guess is they are confused because they aren't paying attention... why can they not just trust that I will handle the issue and be back momentarily making everything all better instead of trying to understand the exact process behind that which will make everything all better?).
Hmmm... "Here's what we need to do" and other phrases to that effect come across as you giving them orders.
So I guess I'm hoping to get some further understanding here and get a better (more in depth) understanding on other personality types.
Dealing with other people is a power game. The key is to give them a sense of involvement. It's like bullfighting. Give them choices (you know what the eventual outcome will be anyway). "Well, we can do X, Y, or Z. Which sounds best to you?" and if they fumble over the choice, then you can goad them to where they need to be with a little explanation. Or a cattle prod. If they insist on a blatantly poor choice, don't combat it too forcefully, just let them be happy in their ignorance.

This isn't one-size-fits-all though. Your direct approach is useful if you're both on the same page, which you should sense. Someone who's quick and cohesive in their explanation should probably receive the same treatment... unless their expectations are unrealistic.
 

Cavallier

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If I were you, I'd put a camera somewhere that records you and your interactions with the customers, and then you can show your higher ups how they were being dicks to you... and also ask people to see it and what they think about how you acted, what you did wrong.

Also, saying "you're sorry" / "you understand their problem/feelings" to someone who is pissed usually doesn't work, in my experience: it can easily be interpreted as insincere, standard answer to shut them up (and it most likely is). You might as well be saying "Yeah, yeah whatever".

Try "how can I fix this for you?" (this gives them what they want, problem fixed... they don't care if you are sorry, they want their shit fixed. You are irrelevant). Also, saying you're sorry isn't really yielding.

Or perhaps you could try being direct "I can't help you unless you hand me the X / stop yelling at me / blah".

Also, looking at people straight in the eyes constantly can be interpreted as challenging or aggressive (more so if they were already feeling upset); some people in particular can have a very intense gaze that can combine with a matter of fact voice that makes people feel like they're being talked down to. Try to look at some paper, their hands, your hands, the glasses, etc.. as you speak, and their eyes only sporadically.

agreed. I've worked customer service for some time in the technical support field. This means people show up already frustrated. I'm an INTP but I am at least marginally better at calming down clients than my fellow IXTX compatriots.

Here are my customer service "I have a problem" hacks:

1. Make sure you are on eye level or even slightly below eye level. Never be higher than them eye level wise. Doing this makes them feel like they are on an equal level with you. If you stand over them those who are less self confident will feel intimidated or overwhelmed by your presence. Even better is if you are both standing can instead offer them a seat and you both sit across from one another. Something about offering a chair and sitting down together really lowers the stress level for a lot of people. I think it gives them the feeling that we are now finally sitting down to get something done. *shrug*

2. When they describe the issue make earnest eye contact for, on average, 3 seconds, and then look down for a moment. Nod gently every few seconds. This shows to them that you are listening, considering, and nodding makes them feel as if you are sympathizing. Don't smile unless it feels as though they are expecting a smile from you but don't frown either. Try to keep your eyes open/wide and not crinkled. I often look angry when I'm actually just being thoughtful. Unfortunately it is the calling card of INTPs and INTJs everywhere. I find that keeping my eyes wide and pulling my eyebrows together causes me to look more gentle. I think it's because it imitates concern rather than frustration.

3. Pad the conversation with lots of "sure", "of course", and "okay". These are positive validating words. Just saying "I understand" or "I sympathize" is too robotic. You have to subtly validate their feelings and concerns. When you are more confident with this you can add in specific details and say things like, "Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. You don't want BLANK to happen." where you fill in the blank with whatever the issue is.

4. When it's time for you to ask questions be sure to add in stuff like "I sorry, I just want to make sure I understand what's going on". This way you are apologizing up front for asking questions while also making it clear that you are not questioning that they have a problem but are instead trying to better understand their problem. If they are unable to give field related verbiage (I deal with people who think the mouse/keyboard/monitor is "The Modem") offer laymen's terms they might understand.

Ultimately, I work on trying to sound sympathetic, calming, and validating. Also, some people are just inconsolable assholes. *shrug*
 

Starcrossed

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You have my sympathies. :p

Hmmm... "Here's what we need to do" and other phrases to that effect come across as you giving them orders.

Dealing with other people is a power game. The key is to give them a sense of involvement. It's like bullfighting. Give them choices (you know what the eventual outcome will be anyway). "Well, we can do X, Y, or Z. Which sounds best to you?" and if they fumble over the choice, then you can goad them to where they need to be with a little explanation. Or a cattle prod. If they insist on a blatantly poor choice, don't combat it too forcefully, just let them be happy in their ignorance.

This isn't one-size-fits-all though. Your direct approach is useful if you're both on the same page, which you should sense. Someone who's quick and cohesive in their explanation should probably receive the same treatment... unless their expectations are unrealistic.


Thanks, never thought about "giving options" makes sense... The only thing that scares me about that is they have some decisions that they have to make on their own (in regards to their eye exam) and they can't do it, they beg us to make decisions for them... its just so much easier to tell them 'this is what you need to do'.... I wish it was "one size fits all" that would make my job indescribably easier.
 

Starcrossed

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agreed. I've worked customer service for some time in the technical support field. This means people show up already frustrated. I'm an INTP but I am at least marginally better at calming down clients than my fellow IXTX compatriots.

Here are my customer service "I have a problem" hacks:

1. Make sure you are on eye level or even slightly below eye level. Never be higher than them eye level wise. Doing this makes them feel like they are on an equal level with you. If you stand over them those who are less self confident will feel intimidated or overwhelmed by your presence. Even better is if you are both standing can instead offer them a seat and you both sit across from one another. Something about offering a chair and sitting down together really lowers the stress level for a lot of people. I think it gives them the feeling that we are now finally sitting down to get something done. *shrug*

2. When they describe the issue make earnest eye contact for, on average, 3 seconds, and then look down for a moment. Nod gently every few seconds. This shows to them that you are listening, considering, and nodding makes them feel as if you are sympathizing. Don't smile unless it feels as though they are expecting a smile from you but don't frown either. Try to keep your eyes open/wide and not crinkled. I often look angry when I'm actually just being thoughtful. Unfortunately it is the calling card of INTPs and INTJs everywhere. I find that keeping my eyes wide and pulling my eyebrows together causes me to look more gentle. I think it's because it imitates concern rather than frustration.

3. Pad the conversation with lots of "sure", "of course", and "okay". These are positive validating words. Just saying "I understand" or "I sympathize" is too robotic. You have to subtly validate their feelings and concerns. When you are more confident with this you can add in specific details and say things like, "Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. You don't want BLANK to happen." where you fill in the blank with whatever the issue is.

4. When it's time for you to ask questions be sure to add in stuff like "I sorry, I just want to make sure I understand what's going on". This way you are apologizing up front for asking questions while also making it clear that you are not questioning that they have a problem but are instead trying to better understand their problem. If they are unable to give field related verbiage (I deal with people who think the mouse/keyboard/monitor is "The Modem") offer laymen's terms they might understand.

Ultimately, I work on trying to sound sympathetic, calming, and validating. Also, some people are just inconsolable assholes. *shrug*

Ok so I think I need to watch the eye contact (or lack there of) more... People make it so hard to solve problems... I wish they would understand that I'm trying to fix the problem and let me get done what I need to do instead of adding more trouble than what is necessary.
 
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