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U.S. Second Amendment

redbaron

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I don't care about the government regulating my right to own these things, because I have no interest in exercising that right. There is nothing fun about any of those things.

Your argument against gun control is, 'guns are fun and I like them, so they shouldn't be regulated.'

What if I think it's fun to kill people, why should the government regulate my ability to do so?

@redbaron

That basically happened, but with a knife instead. Same day as Sandy Hook too.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html

Additionally, as I recall, the Unabomber and McVeigh did well without guns. :D

It's illegal to carry a knife around without a practical reason in most developed countries.

It's also illegal to make home-made explosives in most developed countries (I'm pretty sure it's actually illegal in all countries, but I'll say most just in case).

So, what's your point?
 

snafupants

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It's illegal to carry a knife around without a practical reason in most developed countries.

It's also illegal to make home-made explosives in most developed countries (I'm pretty sure it's actually illegal in all countries, but I'll say most just in case).

So, what's your point?

@redbaron

I believe you mentioned provisionally banning bats or clubs. You didn't (more tepidly) mention prohibiting public brandishing of said bats or clubs, right?

I suppose the point of invoking explosives is that explosives and knives are an equally or more violent alternative for any hypothetical banning of guns. You solve very little by banning guns, in other words.

At any rate, bandying about threats of gun prohibition betrays a lack of empirical evidence. In fact, there's evidence that gun prohibition may lead to some nonviolent crime, which is quite the opposite of the ostensible intent of gun prohibition, correct?

Any more questions?
 

redbaron

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@redbaron
At any rate, bandying about threats of gun prohibition betrays a lack of empirical evidence. In fact, there's evidence that gun prohibition may lead to some nonviolent crime, which is quite the opposite of the ostensible intent of gun prohibition, correct?

I've never purported that gun prohibition prevents non-violent crime. The correlation between gun prohibition and the rate of non-violent crimes shows that gun prohibition doesn't necessarily correlate with lower rates of non-violent crimes. This seems more apparently related to culture.

The point of gun prohibition is the prevention of violent crimes, and the correlation between the two is that countries with stricter gun prohibition, have lower rates of violent crime, mostly homicide and armed robbery.

@redbaronI believe you mentioned provisionally banning bats or clubs. You didn't (more tepidly) mention prohibiting public brandishing of said bats or clubs, right?

It was a joke, that's why I put a wink after it. I don't think anyone could actually commit mass murder of 26 people with a baseball bat, or kill 12 and injure 58 people in a cinema.

But hey, maybe it'll happen one day.
 

snafupants

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I don't think anyone could actually commit mass murder of 26 people with a baseball bat, or kill 12 and injure 58 people in a cinema.

But hey, maybe it'll happen one day.

You clearly haven't studied ancient warfare if you believe that's an impossibility.

The rest of your post proved, unsurprisingly, frivolous, so I will withhold comment.
 

redbaron

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You clearly haven't studied ancient warfare if you believe that's an impossibility.

Oh shit, I forgot they had baseball bats and cinemas in ancient times. Are you trolling or what? Not to mention I admitted it could happen some day, I didn't call it an impossibility, but thanks for straw-manning me! :)

People would have to be pretty stupid to stick around in a cinema with a guy swinging a baseball bat at everyone. He'd have to be a pretty extraordinary athlete as well if you ask me, to kill 12 people and injure 58 with just a baseball bat. If one of these weedy nerds that go on shooting sprees came at me with a baseball bat, I somehow don't think I'd be overly concerned for my well-being.

The people he attacks are probably going to fight back or try to avoid being hit, and there's a risk that a guy armed with just a bat is going to get beat down himself if he tries to take on a whole cinema.

Although...I suppose a Spartan from a time when ancient warfare was relevant, who discovered the art of time travelling, could travel to the year 2013 any day now. He could purchase a baseball bat, attend the next grand movie opening with said baseball bat, and then probably proceed to kill and/or injure 70 people.

Seems highly likely.
 

snafupants

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Oh shit, I forgot they had baseball bats and cinemas in ancient times.

Or other blunt weapons? It's OK to forget. Consider this a refresher. ;)

People would have to be pretty stupid to stick around in a cinema with a guy swinging a baseball bat at everyone.
I only read part of this entire post but that's a far cry from my implication.

This inane idea of the baseball bat and the cinema is your pet concoction.
 

Duxwing

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Or other blunt weapons? It's OK to forget. Consider this a refresher. ;)


I only read part of this entire post but that's a far cry from my implication.

This inane idea of the baseball bat and the cinema is your pet concoction.

Ancient warriors stuck to bladed and pointed weapons like swords and spears, not clubs. Imagine how hard it is to actually kill someone with a baseball bat: you'd have to hit them over the head again and again and again until their brain finally turned to mush. With a spear, one solid thrust to the chest and they're through. Now imagine which action is easier to perform on twelve people in the space of a few minutes? Ten or fifteen blows apiece, or one good heave of the dori for each?

-Duxwing
 

snafupants

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Ancient warriors stuck to bladed and pointed weapons like swords and spears, not clubs. Imagine how hard it is to actually kill someone with a baseball bat: you'd have to hit them over the head again and again and again until their brain finally turned to mush. With a spear, one solid thrust to the chest and they're through. Now imagine which action is easier to perform on twelve people in the space of a few minutes? Ten or fifteen blows apiece, or one good heave of the dori for each?

-Duxwing

This is retarded. People have, in fact, succumbed to death by blunt instruments throughout history. Come on, 9/11 ostensibly involved box cutters. Are you serious? You can kill anybody with many different ilks of weapon, many of which prove manufacturable out of Home Depot.

I'm not arguing for more lethal weapons. On the contrary, many things can be fashioned into weapons. Who cares which is the most deadly or quickest?

It's stupid to ban guns to prevent terrorism. Terrorism has been orchestrated with improvised bombs (look at the middle east) and knives (look at China on 12/14 or 9/11 as aforementioned). I guess that China/Unabomber example went over some peoples' heads though. :rolleyes:

Oh shit, I forgot they had baseball bats and cinemas in ancient times.
They totally had clubs and amphitheaters but you couldn't miss the point more.
 
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Your opinion doesn't reflect that of the rest of society, or of how society should view guns.
In American society, this is not an unusual opinion at all, particularly regarding guns. What you meant is that my opinion doesn't reflect yours. It's not like the overwhelming majority agrees with you and not me.
Are you really trying to say that countries with stricter gun control like Australia and Britain are verging on police states simply because their citizens don't have the unimpeded right to own a potentially dangerous weapon?
Yes. There is nothing wrong with owning a gun. It is generally wrong to hurt or threaten someone with a gun, but there is nothing inherently wrong with owning one. It is reasonable for a government to make shooting someone illegal and enforcing that law. Restricting the whole population's ability to do something legitimately--like own a gun--to try to prevent a small few from using it to do something wrong is unreasonable. This is what police states do: they don't just deal with people who disrupt the civil order, they control their populations by restricting their rights in order to prevent such disruption.
 
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Your argument against gun control is, 'guns are fun and I like them, so they shouldn't be regulated.'
That is not at all what I have argued. I have argued that I don't NEED an argument AGAINST gun control; you need one FOR it. While there are pretty good arguments for gun control, I do not find them compelling enough to justify restricting the rights of decent, law-abiding people.

What if I think it's fun to kill people, why should the government regulate my ability to do so?
I think you have the right to do anything you like that does not physically harm another person or injure their rights. Unfortunately, your hobby of murder does not meet these requirements.

It's illegal to carry a knife around without a practical reason in most developed countries.
I don't think so. There are certain places you can't take a knife, but it is not illegal to carry one in public. However, knives are pretty useful, and there is pretty much always a "practical reason" to have one, so I'm not sure how this would apply.
 

Duxwing

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This is retarded. People have, in fact, succumbed to death by blunt instruments throughout history. Come on, 9/11 ostensibly involved box cutters. Are you serious? You can kill anybody with many different ilks of weapon, many of which prove manufacturable out of Home Depot.

I'm not arguing for more lethal weapons. On the contrary, many things can be fashioned into weapons. Who cares which is the most deadly or quickest?

It's stupid to ban guns to prevent terrorism. Terrorism has been orchestrated with improvised bombs (look at the middle east) and knives (look at China on 12/14 or 9/11 as aforementioned). I guess that China/Unabomber example went over some peoples' heads though. :rolleyes:


They totally had clubs and amphitheaters but you couldn't miss the point more.

I agree that anything can be a weapon, even the human body. Nevertheless, in a purely technical sense, some weapons are more effective than others in certain contexts. The rest I have no comment on.

-Duxwing
 

snafupants

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I agree that anything can be a weapon, even the human body. Nevertheless, in a purely technical sense, some weapons are more effective than others in certain contexts. The rest I have no comment on.

-Duxwing

Who would argue with that assertion? I already said that deadliness or quickness of kill isn't that concerning for me, or germane to this discussion. Simply put, certain gun restriction proposals are feckless, perhaps even dangerous, and definitely unconstitutional. Why would you consider restricting guns? Yeah, leave the criminals and cops with guns...that should be fun.
 

redbaron

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Snafupants is so cute when he's trying to be scathing.

Yeah, leave the criminals and cops with guns...that should be fun.

It sure is fun to live in a country where people don't shoot up schools. It's actually very difficult for a criminal to get their hands on a gun in Australia. It's really just cops who have them, and members of organized crime groups. Thugs and every-day criminals aren't getting their hands on guns.

If you're on the wrong side of a crime organization, it's not going to make a difference whether you own a gun or not.
 

snafupants

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Snafupants is so cute when he's trying to be scathing.

If you want to, I'm amenable to making out now. Perhaps some angry sex? :smoker:

Thugs and every-day criminals aren't getting their hands on guns.
Well, they are stateside, friend. You have to tailor these decisions to current realities.
 

redbaron

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They totally had clubs and amphitheaters but you couldn't miss the point more.

Naw, I think somehow you believing that ancient warfare is somehow relevant to mass murder using tear gas and automatic weapons in the year 2012 is missing the point.

Do you really think that weedy kid could have killed those 12 people with a baseball bat? Let alone injure 58 more. That's SEVENTY people. I think your feelings on this topic are addling you here.
 
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Do you really think that weedy kid could have killed those 12 people with a baseball bat? Let alone injure 58 more.
Maybe; I mean, they were small children packed into classrooms. But look at it this way: Maybe he couldn't have killed 12 people, but he probably could have killed five or six. He definitely could have killed one. What is the precise number of people a weapon must be capable of killing for that weapon to be outlawed?
 

snafupants

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Do you really think that weedy kid could have killed those 12 people with a baseball bat? Let alone injure 58 more. That's SEVENTY people. I think your feelings on this topic are addling you here.
I think you're an idiot.

Fine, prohibit all guns. That's unconstitutional and foolish.

Someone could just use a bomb. This should be a mental health debate anyway. These shooters have experience with pharmaceuticals; maybe that should be analyzed.

I'm not addled you mindless fuck. And, yeah, I do think that a baseball bat could easily kill twelve kids. Sure, with the doors locked and the teacher bonked first.

There's enough time and...they're kids. It's not a pleasant thought but the scenario presents a feasible reality. Yet, I'm not saying the US government should ban bats.

At any rate, maybe legislators should look at the drone attacks on Pakistan, Homeland Security, or the mental health problems in the United States rather than encroach on constitutional rights.

I'm out. You're either a complete idiot or convincingly impersonating one.
 

redbaron

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Maybe; I mean, they were small children packed into classrooms. But look at it this way: Maybe he couldn't have killed 12 people, but he probably could have killed five or six. He definitely could have killed one. What is the precise number of people a weapon must be capable of killing for that weapon to be outlawed?

I was referring to the cinema shooting in Connecticut with that reference, where there were 70 victims total. 12 killed, 58 injured. That's a lot of effort to do with a baseball bat to be honest. I'm not sure there'd be many people with enough stamina to not only kill/injure 70 people, but not get themselves restrained or beat down themselves. Let alone the time required.

In the time required to shoot 70 people with an automatic weapon, could he have done the same with a bat?

I can't put a number on how many people a weapon must be capable of killing. It's not really about that. What I am saying saying is that if you can kill someone with a baseball bat, you can do it with a gun too, and kill more on top of that in the same time-frame. Can you honestly say the same the other way around?

Fine, prohibit all guns.

Thanks for failing to take note of the times that I mentioned that I don't believe that prohibiting all guns will solve anything, or that prohibition is the answer.

This is why I think you're addled regarding this topic. Not even reading what other people post before responding. Doesn't sound like you really give a shit about hearing an alternative viewpoint as much as you are interested in pointing out that, ' banning da guns is unconstitutional!'.

My heart bleeds that you will no longer be contributing to the thread. Really.
 

Nezaros

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If you want to, I'm amenable to making out now. Perhaps some angry sex? :smoker:

Thank you for the laugh, good sir.

Yes. There is nothing wrong with owning a gun. It is generally wrong to hurt or threaten someone with a gun, but there is nothing inherently wrong with owning one. It is reasonable for a government to make shooting someone illegal and enforcing that law. Restricting the whole population's ability to do something legitimately--like own a gun--to try to prevent a small few from using it to do something wrong is unreasonable. This is what police states do: they don't just deal with people who disrupt the civil order, they control their populations by restricting their rights in order to prevent such disruption.

Okay, so now I know for certain that I'm dealing with yet another person who thinks the United States of America is a shining example of freedom to all the peoples of the world. I would try to argue how utterly idiotic that viewpoint is but I know it won't work so I guess I'm done here. I will say this though: I don't think that there is anything wrong with guns. They're fun, and they have a few practical uses, but they're still dangerous in the wrong hands, just like automobiles. They're an artificial product which no one possesses any natural right to own, whatever the Constitution is interpreted to say, and just like the aforementioned vehicles, they should be held to the same standard. Would that take away "freedom"? Technically. Is it a "freedom" which really doesn't matter the least bit? Yes. You live in a society. Get over it. If you want true, unimpinged freedom, go live in the middle of nowhere where no one cares.
 

snafupants

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Not even reading what other people post before responding.

If these last few posts of yours are indicative of authorial acumen, I'm not missing out. ;)

Thank you for the laugh, good sir.

It inspires a duty call in me, much like the bat signal, to put idiots like RB in their place.

Just doing my job, sir. :smoker:
 

Mantush

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The incidence of mass murder isn't rising, but I found a paper that says the lethality of incidents of mass murder has (link). This same paper goes on to talk about how events like the tragedy in Newtown tend to occur in clusters, and that the reporting of events may influence others to perform similar actions. This suggests that there isn't a problem with guns, but a problem with people. We shouldn't be lobbying the government to ban guns; we should be lobbying the media to stop sensationalizing these tragedies for ratings.
 

redbaron

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The incidence of mass murder isn't rising, but I found a paper that says the lethality of incidents of mass murder has (link). This same paper goes on to talk about how events like the tragedy in Newtown tend to occur in clusters, and that the reporting of events may influence others to perform similar actions. This suggests that there isn't a problem with guns, but a problem with people. We shouldn't be lobbying the government to ban guns; we should be lobbying the media to stop sensationalizing these tragedies for ratings.

A fair point, but it has to happen initially for the media to start sensationalizing it. This only accounts for subsequent events. And it doesn't really change my earlier point about potential for harm, but thanks for providing some information outside of, 'banning da guns is unconstitutional'.

It inspires a duty call in me, much like the bat signal, to put idiots like RB in their place.

If by this you were referring to making a few straw-man arguments, reciting a few platitudes and then getting upset and leaving the thread, then I agree.
 

Mantush

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A fair point, but it has to happen initially for the media to start sensationalizing it. This only accounts for subsequent events. And it doesn't really change my earlier point about potential for harm, but thanks for providing some information outside of, 'banning da guns is unconstitutional'.

You are right, the media can only effect subsequent events. However, I'd argue that intense media coverage of the shooting in the Colorado Theater has only encouraged more people to go out and commit acts of terrorism (that's what these mass shootings are).

I don't know how the media is covering these mass shootings in foreign countries, but I can tell you that the American media digs deep into the life of the shooter and makes them the talk of the nation for the next two to three weeks following the event. The media immortalizes them. I don't know what Adam Lanza's motivations were, and I don't know what James Holmes' motivations were either. Yet, when Columbine happened, it came out that Eric and Dylan wanted to be famous. They wanted to "set the high score," and had plans on killing hundreds of people; they were prepared to put themselves in history books. When their motivation was fame, am I wrong to suspect that some of the other more recent mass murderers may be similar? I probably am.

I don't think the media's role in these tragic events can be overstated enough though. America lives and dies by celebrity culture. If being the perpetrator of mass murder will make somebody the talk of the nation, then I think people are encouraged to try it. Alternatively, there's also the severe dearth of mental health funding in the United States and the stigma attached thereto. There's a few things we need to do to prevent similar tragedies from occurring; first, we need to ascertain the media's role and adjust accordingly; and secondly, we need to break the taboo attached to those with mental illness and promote an environment where it is both easy and safe for them to receive treatment. Once we've done those things, then I think it becomes feasible to address whether or not guns (or more loosely, assault weapons) have a role in society. A poster up thread commented on the usefulness of assault weapons in the LA Riots. I think we need to be mindful that guns do have a role in self-defense, and that yes they will be used for murder, but those wrongfully using guns would use knives or something else in their place if they weren't readily available to them.
 

redbaron

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You are right, the media can only effect subsequent events. However, I'd argue that intense media coverage of the shooting in the Colorado Theater has only encouraged more people to go out and commit acts of terrorism (that's what these mass shootings are).

I don't know how the media is covering these mass shootings in foreign countries, but I can tell you that the American media digs deep into the life of the shooter and makes them the talk of the nation for the next two to three weeks following the event. The media immortalizes them. I don't know what Adam Lanza's motivations were, and I don't know what James Holmes' motivations were either. Yet, when Columbine happened, it came out that Eric and Dylan wanted to be famous. They wanted to "set the high score," and had plans on killing hundreds of people; they were prepared to put themselves in history books. When their motivation was fame, am I wrong to suspect that some of the other more recent mass murderers may be similar? I probably am.

I don't think the media's role in these tragic events can be overstated enough though. America lives and dies by celebrity culture. If being the perpetrator of mass murder will make somebody the talk of the nation, then I think people are encouraged to try it. Alternatively, there's also the severe dearth of mental health funding in the United States and the stigma attached thereto. There's a few things we need to do to prevent similar tragedies from occurring; first, we need to ascertain the media's role and adjust accordingly; and secondly, we need to break the taboo attached to those with mental illness and promote an environment where it is both easy and safe for them to receive treatment. Once we've done those things, then I think it becomes feasible to address whether or not guns (or more loosely, assault weapons) have a role in society. A poster up thread commented on the usefulness of assault weapons in the LA Riots. I think we need to be mindful that guns do have a role in self-defense, and that yes they will be used for murder, but those wrongfully using guns would use knives or something else in their place if they weren't readily available to them.

I definitely agree, but I do think the States is too heavily into being a culture of citizens who bear guns to make 'banning' anything effective. More complete background checks and having to give certain information that puts more accountability on individuals is necessary.
 

Mantush

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What information do you suppose prospective gun owners should have to surrender?
 

Agent Intellect

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I'd say, even if the 2nd amendment doesn't say that Americans have the right to privately own guns, then the 9th and 10th amendment, and maybe even the 4th amendment, do.
 

snafupants

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I'd say, even if the 2nd amendment doesn't say that Americans have the right to privately own guns, then the 9th and 10th amendment, and maybe even the 4th amendment, do.

Hasn't TSA and (more broadly) DHS mauled the fourth amendment anyway? The tenth amendment also flummoxes me in its paradoxicality because subsequent amendments seem to water down the intent and clout of the overriding (and precluding?) tenth amendment. At any rate, the third and seventh amendments are bullocks so take the bill of rights with a grain of salt. Nice to see you on again, Agent. ;)
 

EditorOne

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@Agent Intellect

Hasn't TSA and (more broadly) DHS mauled the fourth amendment anyway? The tenth amendment also flummoxes me in its paradoxicality because subsequent amendments seem to water down the intent and clout of the overriding (and precluding?) tenth amendment. I go back to Jefferson on the second amendment when he said (and I'm paraphrasing) that when governments are afraid of the people, that's liberty, and when the people are afraid of governments, that's tyranny. At the rate, the third and seventh amendments are bullocks so take the bill of rights with a grain of salt. Nice to see you on again, Agent. ;)


Not to go all pedantic on you, but Jefferson never said that. If you check on the link, the Monticello folks went to some trouble to nail it down, including the earliest known (erroneous) attribution of it to Jefferson, which was 1994.
It's one of those damn Web things....
 

EditorOne

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Have you actually read Jefferson? Plus, how can you know what someone really said from ~1790 anyway? Meh, I stand by the paraphrased Jefferson statement...petty quibbling.


No, it's not quibbling to point out the substitution of illusion for fact. Making up attributions to popular or esteemed people to support positions in arguments about modern issues is a thriving cottage industry. You didn't do that, of course, someone else did in 1994 and it's been making the rounds ever since.

"Never believe anything you read on the Internet unless you check it out first."
-- Abraham Lincoln
 

snafupants

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No, it's not quibbling to point out the substitution of illusion for fact. Making up attributions to popular or esteemed people to support positions in arguments about modern issues is a thriving cottage industry. You didn't do that, of course, someone else did in 1994 and it's been making the rounds ever since.

One source attributes this quotation to Thomas Jefferson in The Federalist.[4] The Federalist, however, was the work of Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, and James Madison; it also does not contain the text of this quotation. This quotation is vaguely similar to Jefferson's comment in an 1825 letter to William Short: "Some are whigs, liberals, democrats, call them what you please. Others are tories, serviles, aristocrats, &c. The latter fear the people, and wish to transfer all power to the higher classes of society; the former consider the people as the safest depository of power in the last resort; they cherish them therefore, and wish to leave in them all the powers to the exercise of which they are competent."[5] To date however, the most likely source of this quotation appears to be a series of debates on socialism published in 1914, in which John Basil Barnhill said, "Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty.

This is incredibly tedious to me. The founding fathers had a wariness about encroaching tyranny. I paraphrased something, and perhaps attributed it sloppily. You're being an asshole, and you're definitely missing the larger point.
 

EditorOne

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"I go back to Jefferson on the second amendment when he said (and I'm paraphrasing) that when governments are afraid of the people, that's liberty, and when the people are afraid of governments, that's tyranny."


Jefferson seems to have said exactly nothing about the Second Amendment.

Here is what he did said, and he was talking about the concept of power residing in the people. "Some are whigs, liberals, democrats, call them what you please. Others are tories, serviles, aristocrats, &c. The latter fear the people, and wish to transfer all power to the higher classes of society; the former consider the people as the safest depository of power in the last resort; they cherish them therefore, and wish to leave in them all the powers to the exercise of which they are competent."

The comment you misused came from John Basil Barnhill in 1914 in one of a series of debates on socialism. "Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty."

Here's another phony quote from This Website.
, which has an extensive catalog of words put in the mouths of venerable figures to support modern issues.


"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
"Occasionally this phony quote attributed to Thomas Jefferson is given with the following citation: Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950). The publication exists, but the quote does not. And the editor's correct name is Julian P. Boyd, not C.J. Boyd. In other cases, this quote is added to the end of a proven Jefferson quote "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms…" Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776, Jefferson Papers 344. "


That is a fairly standard position in English law of the period, and quite in keeping with the Ninth Amendment, as noted.
 

snafupants

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Jefferson seems to have said exactly nothing about the Second Amendment.

You serious? Jefferson had no feeling about the Bill of Rights?

Here is what he did said, and he was talking about the concept of power residing in the people. "Some are whigs, liberals, democrats, call them what you please. Others are tories, serviles, aristocrats, &c. The latter fear the people, and wish to transfer all power to the higher classes of society; the former consider the people as the safest depository of power in the last resort; they cherish them therefore, and wish to leave in them all the powers to the exercise of which they are competent."

Didn't I just post the above? At any rate, Jefferson certainly wrote more than that excerpt.

You seem really tethered to that source though. :D

The comment you misused came from John Basil Barnhill in 1914 in one of a series of debates on socialism. "Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty."

Posted that too. I'm going to stop reading now.
 
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Why does it matter who said it anyway? As if Thomas Jefferson were almighty Jesus Christ, sole giver of truth and law. You might as well attribute it to snafupants if you want. It's a valid and pertinent statement, and whether some slave-fucking asshole said it 200 years ago doesn't lend it any truth it didn't already have.
 

snafupants

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Why does it matter who said it anyway? As if Thomas Jefferson were almighty Jesus Christ, sole giver of truth and law. You might as well attribute it to snafupants if you want. It's a valid and pertinent statement, and whether some slave-fucking asshole said it 200 years ago doesn't lend it any truth it didn't already have.

It doesn't matter whatsoever. I know what the truth is and the external prattle will continue. I agree that no one person should be deified; basically, I employed Jefferson as a marquee founding father and quick reference for folks. It turned into small minded bickering, which is par for the course on this forum. That's fine. I didn't intend on controversy when I offhandedly slapped that post together.
 

EvilBlitz

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Did anyone notice that on the same day as the shooting in the US in Newton, that a Chinese man stabbed 22 children in China.

ALL the chinese stab victims survived. This is the reason why better gun control is needed, because with other weapons the chance of survival is higher.

Esp as there is a drug in phase 2 trials that prevents death by bleed out.

Now if you value your life as sacred, conversely you should hold others as equally valuable. Now even a consistent but accurate decline in 1 death per year would be worth the restriction in gun laws imho.(I am not suggesting how this would work).

Pragmatism over ideals is needed at the least. The 2nd amendment be damned.
 

snafupants

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Did anyone notice that on the same day as the shooting in the US in Newton, that a Chinese man stabbed 22 children in China.

Yeah I mentioned that, to little avail, when debating with Red Barren.

It makes anyone who claims gun control would curb mass violence look pretty ridiculous. I also say look at 9/11 when foolishly sounding the alarms for gun restrictions.

ALL the chinese stab victims survived. This is the reason why better gun control is needed, because with other weapons the chance of survival is higher.

Just means the guy didn't commit. Look at McVeigh. Bombs could easily replace guns and, as you've noted, so could knives. Some box cutters took down the world trade center, if you buy the official account.

The whole debate is propaganda though. Thousands of people die from cars and alcohol every year in the United States and Obama continues to kill Pakistani women and children with drone attacks. That's a bigger deal.


Now if you value your life as sacred, conversely you should hold others as equally valuable. Now even a consistent but accurate decline in 1 death per year would be worth the restriction in gun laws imho.(I am not suggesting how this would work).
Not at all. Even thousands of deaths per year wouldn't warrant draconian gun restrictions. Moreover, as has been empirically demonstrated, curbing gun ownership indirectly leads to higher incidences of some forms of nonviolent crime.

Valuing "life as sacred" doesn't have anything to do with it. People kill people.

What you're saying is incredibly vague though. I have already recommended shorter clips, less deadly bullets, and more thorough background checks.

Pragmatism over ideals is needed at the least. The 2nd amendment be damned.
I agree pragmatism is needed...not emotionalism. This is why I uphold the ideals of the founding fathers. Power grabs be damned!
 

Mantush

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Now if you value your life as sacred, conversely you should hold others as equally valuable. Now even a consistent but accurate decline in 1 death per year would be worth the restriction in gun laws imho.(I am not suggesting how this would work).

If life is sacred, then it's necessary to defend it. A gun is a more effective at defending life than a knife; a gun puts distance between you and your attacker.

If a woman is walking down the street at night and somebody jumps out at her, I'm willing to bet the likelihood of survival and/or harm being done to them is considerably lower if she has a gun than a knife. If somebody has a knife, they can still be overpowered; while the same is true if there is a gun, the woman may be able to fire off a shot and scare her attacker away. The same applies if somebody breaks into a home. Leaving the defense of life to the laws of nature is inherently inhumane. Guns are the great equalizers. You can be weak and frail, but you'll still be able to repel your attacker with your gun. The same isn't true with any other weapon.
 

Nodak

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One question, if the words "the right of the people" in the second amendment do not refer to the general population then who gets to decide what group those same words refer to in the first and fourth amendments.
 

EditorOne

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Why does it matter who said it anyway? As if Thomas Jefferson were almighty Jesus Christ, sole giver of truth and law. You might as well attribute it to snafupants if you want. It's a valid and pertinent statement, and whether some slave-fucking asshole said it 200 years ago doesn't lend it any truth it didn't already have.


Let's review. Someone says "Abraham Lincoln said this and that," bolstering their own position on an issue by adding the prestige and throw weight of a respected figure from history. Someone else comes along and says "your argument on the issue is weakened by your inaccurate sourcing." And now a third party comes along and says it really doesn't matter who said it if it's a good thought.

It is certainly true good ideas can stand alone.

But that's really not the funny point, is it? The chuckling point is that in a thread that started with the thought that people continually misunderstand the origin, purpose and historical context of the Second Amendment in an effort to harness it to the modern issue of weapons ownership as an almost divine endowment, it is ironic to find someone inaccurately sourcing a historic figure for the same purpose. It's a common enough thing to do in innocence, but since Snafupants seems to insist that he's right even when he's wrong, I'm willing to ride this horse until it has blisters.

And yes, Jefferson had a lot to say about the Bill of Rights. I said he seems not to have said a lot about the Second Amendment itself. Nobody did. At the time the Bill of Rights was formulated it wasn't a controversial inclusion. That's probably because they all had much the same idea: Citizens will literally provide for the common defense using their own weapons when called out for militia duty. You'll find, in that time period, discussions of the evils of standing armies, complaints about the costs of standing armies, discussions of the need for defense of the Republic and the keeping of order through the government's use of armed citizens. They are almost describing a duty to have arms. The Second Amendment does not, as many now assert, include a right to armed insurrection; clearly the writers of the Bill of Rights and of the Constitution saw a constituency using arms to uphold legally constituted authority, not to foment rebellion. You have to get to Alexander Hamilton to find even a whiff of that:
"If circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude[,] that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizen."

For those not as fascinated by history as I am: Alexander Hamilton died in a duel with Aaron Burr, his long-time political adversary. This was a guy who was a lieutenant with Washington who went on to become secretary of the treasury; he blocked Burr from becoming President (he had to settle for Vice President) and then blocked Burr again from becoming governor of New York. So Burr challenged Hamilton to a duel, and killed him. Presumbly Hamilton did not have this outcome in mind when supporting the right of people to bear arms.
 

joal0503

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why does everyone believe this is something only americans have a problem with? or that somehow firearms are the ultimate evil in this world?

look around...common themes prevail. money, power, control.

weapons_big.jpg


to me this debate is silly. its nothing but more distraction and fodder. because nothings going to happen, and the deeper issues are out of the public's eyes (as usual).

bleh
 

Solitaire U.

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I can't put a number on how many people a weapon must be capable of killing. It's not really about that.

I think the big thing with guns is the fear factor.

A guy enters a theater with a baseball bat and starts swinging, he might get three good clunks in before everyone jumps on him.

A guy enters a theater with an smg and starts firing randomly, panic will ensue as everyone scatters in the opposite direction of the shooter. That is not to say that the guy with the smg couldn't be subdued by a crowd just as quickly as the guy with the baseball bat was. It's just fear. Everyone believes that it's a lot harder to dodge bullets than baseball bat swings.

But as was already mentioned, 9/11 was executed with box cutters and airplanes. The Oklahoma City bombing was executed with a Ryder truck and fertilizer. The uni-bomber used metal pipe and batteries. BTK killer preferred plastic bags and pantyhose. The list of non-firearm related killings goes on and on.

I'm reasonably confident that I could jump in my Dodge minivan right now and use it as a weapon to rack up an impressively newsworthy number of kills before I was stopped (which is why I previously suggested banning automobiles).

Hence, I think that if by some magik guns in the US were both outlawed and removed from private ownership, it would not decrease the potential for that violent society to perpetuate violence upon itself. What it would certainly do is increase the savage creativity that society employs to inflict non-firearm related violence upon itself.

There is something about US culture that seems to spawn insane wanton violence. Here in Mexico there are murders, but these murders are rarely without purpose (narcotrafficing, etc.). However, there are no serial killers here, and acts of mass murder like what happened in Connecticut simply do not occur. When Mexicans hear about things like that, they simply cannot fathom the hows and whys. The very idea exceeds even their most extreme definition of 'crazy'.

So, are firearms related to the cultural anomaly? It seems doubtful to me that it's that close to the surface.
 

Solitaire U.

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Is thread-killing a form of non-firearm related murder?
 
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Is thread-killing a form of non-firearm related murder?
I would consider it justifiable threadicide. That thread needed to die. Though I will point out that Solitaire U. was able to easily the thread even without the use of an assault weapon, therefore weakening the argument in favor of a ban.
 

joal0503

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From the prestigious Academy of Danny Gloverinians:

I don’t know if you know the genesis of the right to bear arms...The Second Amendment comes from the right to protect themselves from slave revolts, and from uprisings by Native Americans.

A revolt from people who were stolen from their land or revolt from people whose land was stolen from, that’s what the genesis of the second amendment is.

a decent point, if you werent a wealthy white man, the 2nd amendment meant shit to you.


i havent done too much into the personalities of the 'founding fathers' but i do find it humorous that we put them on pedestals, as if they werent the ruling elite snobs from england that they were...it was like offshoring/tax loophole evasion v.1.23
 
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